Thunder on ADA scramble

[Khafee]

Good one.

I can post more good ones, all you have to do is ask.

Hi,

Here in this video at around 4:07---there is a near hit---the video is from the fighter aircraft camera---the camera can see the smoke trail---but the human eye has no reaction to it until the last moment---.

So---what is visible to the camera may not be visible to the naked eye.

But if you follow the smoke trail---for a wvr shot---then that smoke might be a trap as well to set you up that while you are busy looking for the one with smoke---anther comes behind you and take you out---.

Personally---I would be extremely weary of this ' open invitation '---because all my attention is focused on searching for what is ahead of the smoke trail and I might be forgetting on what is on my tail.

In WVR, the hunter can become the hunted, in the blink of an eye, so what you have said, makes absolute sense. Unless you are in the mood to have your "behind" shot off, then it's another story.

 

[Raider 21]

I can post more good ones, all you have to do is ask.

Will do sir.

 

[MastanKhan]

I can post more good ones, all you have to do is ask.



In WVR, the hunter can become the hunted, in the blink of an eye, so what you have said, makes absolute sense. Unless you are in the mood to have your "behind" shot off, then it's another story.

Hi,

Looking and following a smoke trail is like TARGET FIXATION---once you are in that mode---you have entered the no win territory---.

Smoke is only at certain power settings---suppose---suppose---it pulls you out on a heavy smoke trail and suddenly reduces to minimum power---smoke has disappeared now---pulls flaps or whatever---drops the speed---and suddenly you find yourself being shot up from behind.

 

[Khafee]

Hi,

Looking and following a smoke trail is like TARGET FIXATION---once you are in that mode---you have entered the no win territory---.

Smoke is only at certain power settings---suppose---suppose---it pulls you out on a heavy smoke trail and suddenly reduces to minimum power---smoke has disappeared now---pulls flaps or whatever---drops the speed---and suddenly you find yourself being shot up from behind.

Well said, Target fixation = Game over. Maintaining situational awareness, is equally important.

 

[CriticalThought]

Well said, Target fixation = Game over. Maintaining situational awareness, is equally important.

Sir, in modern fighters, how much situational awareness is obtained through scanning the skies vs. looking at the HUD?

 

[Khafee]

Sir, in modern fighters, how much situational awareness is obtained through scanning the skies vs. looking at the HUD?

Ouch!!! You are a nasty one!

 

[CriticalThought]

Ouch!!! You are a nasty one!

And so the real question is, can black smoke make it easier for modern avionics to better discern the threat, lock on to it, and make it easier for missiles to achieve a kill. Although @messiach say no, I still think there could be merit here. @gambit @F-22Raptor

 

[gambit]

Sir, in modern fighters, how much situational awareness is obtained through scanning the skies vs. looking at the HUD?

A HUD is first and foremost is a focusing device, not an informational one. Yes, a HUD displays information like speed, altitude, and assorted flying related data, but those data are there to work in conjunction with your focusing on a target.

There is a difference between 'flight' and 'flying'.

Flight is a general idea of leaving ground and staying aloft. Flying is more specific. Flying is about the mechanics of flight, such as aerodynamic forces, the vehicle itself, atmospheric information, and so on.

In flying ( not flight ), situational awareness is about taking all the general aspects of those mechanics of flight and uses them to deal with issues ( not problems ). How can you tell if you are at 10,000 ft or 9,000 ft ? You cannot. How can you tell if your speed is at 300 kts or 310 kts ? You cannot. That is what precision atmospheric instruments are for. However, whether you are at X altitude and X airspeed is less important than your awareness that you are above ground and traveling forward. Everyone drives, so put that into how you are driving regarding situational awareness.

What this means is that your situational awareness is greater if you look thru the canopy than if you look thru the HUD. Whatever vehicle you have, an automobile or an aircraft, if you are in control of that vehicle -- you are the pilot.

Since a HUD is a focusing device, by that nature, it is also an informational EXCLUSIONARY device. The HUD forces you to exclude other information, general or specific, from your own data processing -- in your brain. The more experience you are as a pilot, whether your vehicle is an F1 racer or a jet fighter, the better skilled you will be at processing data from situational awareness, the better you will be at changing between focusing what you see in the HUD and taking in other general information from looking thru the canopy as your flying conditions changes.

So here is what most people do not understand about the HUD and SA...

As your flying conditions changes, your SA changes, but the HUD does not. By that, I mean when you are looking thru the HUD, your data processing is still the same -- follow that target and do something about it. Whereas, with SA, as flying conditions and environment changes, your data processing changes. The HUD forces you to look ahead, SA demands that you look all around. SA predates the HUD. The HUD forces you to look at the runway as you approaches for landing. SA demands that you know if there are other traffic before and after you.

The HUD helps you focus on a task -- a target. But that assist comes with a price -- the exclusion of SA.

A pilot must first develop SA skills before he can learn how to use the HUD.

Just want to comment, that modern WVR missiles could theoretically take smoke trails into account to localize the presence of target. Working with multi-sensor inputs and combining the results of IR and visible spectrums + Radar reflections can increase accuracy. All of this is really theoretical, I don't actually know of any WVR that actually utilizes this,...

Smoke is essentially incomplete burn of a fuel and it also means smoke does have its own IR emanation. As such, smoke contributes to the totality of an IR source. But smoke interacts with the immediate atmosphere more rapidly than the fire that is its source, which means its IR emanations rapidly loses strength, intensity, and locality. The last item means diffusion, or becoming more diffused.

So let us say you design an IR trigger to ring a bell at a certain level of IR strength and intensity. Smoke then can becomes an obscurant to your IR sensor if that trigger level is higher than the smoke's own IR emanation level. But if you lower the sensitivity level to match that of the smoke's IR emanations, you becomes vulnerable to false target bell rings.

What this means is it is best to leave it up to the pilot to visually detect smoke and the missile to focus on the real IR source of that smoke.

 

[CriticalThought]

A HUD is first and foremost is a focusing device, not an informational one. Yes, a HUD displays information like speed, altitude, and assorted flying related data, but those data are there to work in conjunction with your focusing on a target.

There is a difference between 'flight' and 'flying'.

Flight is a general idea of leaving ground and staying aloft. Flying is more specific. Flying is about the mechanics of flight, such as aerodynamic forces, the vehicle itself, atmospheric information, and so on.

In flying ( not flight ), situational awareness is about taking all the general aspects of those mechanics of flight and uses them to deal with issues ( not problems ). How can you tell if you are at 10,000 ft or 9,000 ft ? You cannot. How can you tell if your speed is at 300 kts or 310 kts ? You cannot. That is what precision atmospheric instruments are for. However, whether you are at X altitude and X airspeed is less important than your awareness that you are above ground and traveling forward. Everyone drives, so put that into how you are driving regarding situational awareness.

What this means is that your situational awareness is greater if you look thru the canopy than if you look thru the HUD. Whatever vehicle you have, an automobile or an aircraft, if you are in control of that vehicle -- you are the pilot.

Since a HUD is a focusing device, by that nature, it is also an informational EXCLUSIONARY device. The HUD forces you to exclude other information, general or specific, from your own data processing -- in your brain. The more experience you are as a pilot, whether your vehicle is an F1 racer or a jet fighter, the better skilled you will be at processing data from situational awareness, the better you will be at changing between focusing what you see in the HUD and taking in other general information from looking thru the canopy as your flying conditions changes.

So here is what most people do not understand about the HUD and SA...

As your flying conditions changes, your SA changes, but the HUD does not. By that, I mean when you are looking thru the HUD, your data processing is still the same -- follow that target and do something about it. Whereas, with SA, as flying conditions and environment changes, your data processing changes. The HUD forces you to look ahead, SA demands that you look all around. SA predates the HUD. The HUD forces you to look at the runway as you approaches for landing. SA demands that you know if there are other traffic before and after you.

The HUD helps you focus on a task -- a target. But that assist comes with a price -- the exclusion of SA.

A pilot must first develop SA skills before he can learn how to use the HUD.


Smoke is essentially incomplete burn of a fuel and it also means smoke does have its own IR emanation. As such, smoke contributes to the totality of an IR source. But smoke interacts with the immediate atmosphere more rapidly than the fire that is its source, which means its IR emanations rapidly loses strength, intensity, and locality. The last item means diffusion, or becoming more diffused.

So let us say you design an IR trigger to ring a bell at a certain level of IR strength and intensity. Smoke then can becomes an obscurant to your IR sensor if that trigger level is higher than the smoke's own IR emanation level. But if you lower the sensitivity level to match that of the smoke's IR emanations, you becomes vulnerable to false target bell rings.

What this means is it is best to leave it up to the pilot to visually detect smoke and the missile to focus on the real IR source of that smoke.

What about fusing multi-sensor inputs? Can modern avionics correlate the black smoke in visual spectrum with IR heat source from the exhaust and thus fine tune its threat detection?

 

[gambit]

What about fusing multi-sensor inputs? Can modern avionics correlate the black smoke in visual spectrum with IR heat source from the exhaust and thus fine tune its threat detection?

Maybe...Just maybe...The F-35 can do what you asked ? We did make a big deal of that 'sensor fusion' doohickey thingie...

 

[CriticalThought]

Maybe...Just maybe...The F-35 can do what you asked ? We did make a big deal of that 'sensor fusion' doohickey thingie...

The point being, a world in which stealth fighters are going to lengths in order to hide all types of signatures: audio, visual, IR, radar, it makes sense that EW will evolve to look for these. And when faced with a high end threat like Rafale, we have to be meticulously prepared. 'Good enough' just ain't good enough any more.

 

[MastanKhan]

A HUD is first and foremost is a focusing device, not an informational one. Yes, a HUD displays information like speed, altitude, and assorted flying related data, but those data are there to work in conjunction with your focusing on a target.

There is a difference between 'flight' and 'flying'.

Flight is a general idea of leaving ground and staying aloft. Flying is more specific. Flying is about the mechanics of flight, such as aerodynamic forces, the vehicle itself, atmospheric information, and so on.

In flying ( not flight ), situational awareness is about taking all the general aspects of those mechanics of flight and uses them to deal with issues ( not problems ). How can you tell if you are at 10,000 ft or 9,000 ft ? You cannot. How can you tell if your speed is at 300 kts or 310 kts ? You cannot. That is what precision atmospheric instruments are for. However, whether you are at X altitude and X airspeed is less important than your awareness that you are above ground and traveling forward. Everyone drives, so put that into how you are driving regarding situational awareness.

What this means is that your situational awareness is greater if you look thru the canopy than if you look thru the HUD. Whatever vehicle you have, an automobile or an aircraft, if you are in control of that vehicle -- you are the pilot.

Since a HUD is a focusing device, by that nature, it is also an informational EXCLUSIONARY device. The HUD forces you to exclude other information, general or specific, from your own data processing -- in your brain. The more experience you are as a pilot, whether your vehicle is an F1 racer or a jet fighter, the better skilled you will be at processing data from situational awareness, the better you will be at changing between focusing what you see in the HUD and taking in other general information from looking thru the canopy as your flying conditions changes.

So here is what most people do not understand about the HUD and SA...

As your flying conditions changes, your SA changes, but the HUD does not. By that, I mean when you are looking thru the HUD, your data processing is still the same -- follow that target and do something about it. Whereas, with SA, as flying conditions and environment changes, your data processing changes. The HUD forces you to look ahead, SA demands that you look all around. SA predates the HUD. The HUD forces you to look at the runway as you approaches for landing. SA demands that you know if there are other traffic before and after you.

The HUD helps you focus on a task -- a target. But that assist comes with a price -- the exclusion of SA.

A pilot must first develop SA skills before he can learn how to use the HUD.


Smoke is essentially incomplete burn of a fuel and it also means smoke does have its own IR emanation. As such, smoke contributes to the totality of an IR source. But smoke interacts with the immediate atmosphere more rapidly than the fire that is its source, which means its IR emanations rapidly loses strength, intensity, and locality. The last item means diffusion, or becoming more diffused.

So let us say you design an IR trigger to ring a bell at a certain level of IR strength and intensity. Smoke then can becomes an obscurant to your IR sensor if that trigger level is higher than the smoke's own IR emanation level. But if you lower the sensitivity level to match that of the smoke's IR emanations, you becomes vulnerable to false target bell rings.

What this means is it is best to leave it up to the pilot to visually detect smoke and the missile to focus on the real IR source of that smoke.

Hi,

Thanks for the post---. No more chasing smoke trails---

 

[Windjammer]

Guys, this much information i was able to obtain.

''The engine and everything else is the same. PAC folks have done a good job eliminating 70% of the smoke from the engine by working on a smokeless combustion chamber''.

 

[CriticalThought]

Hi,

Thanks for the post---. No more chasing smoke trails---

The point being, when it comes to the cutting edge of technology which can act as make or break in a war, don't expect a foreign expert to come and hold your hands and show you what to do. You are on your own, use your own wits and intellect to understand threats and deal with them.

Guys, this much information i was able to obtain.

''The engine and everything else is the same. PAC folks have done a good job eliminating 70% of the smoke from the engine by working on a smokeless combustion chamber''.

WOW!!!!!!!!!!!! This is BIG news. Our engineers have actually modified the Russian RD-93 engine???? Masha Allah. Alhamdulillah.

@messiach

 

[gambit]

Hi,

Thanks for the post---. No more chasing smoke trails---

You have to look at things in terms of 'attractiveness', as in how likely is a trait being an attractant.

The human brain is wired -- visually -- to become attracted or focused on movements and contrasts. Smoke is an attractant because it is both movement and contrasting to background. As such, smoke can be either a telltale sign or a decoy. If you are over enemy ground and there is no credible intel of opposition air, then a smoky contrail is of SAM. So for a jet fighter, smoke is a sign of your presence. Not a good thing.