Three Huge Ways Pakistan Still Isn’t Cooperating

[Spring Onion]

Pakistan enhances military posts along Afghan border

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has increased its military posts along with Afghanistan border in Balochistan to keep strong vigil on the movement of Taliban militants from Afghanistan to Pakistani areas in the wake of ongoing Operation Mushtarak.

Top military sources told Dawn News that twenty six new posts have been set-up by Pakistani security forces raising the number to two hundred and eighty six.

The sources also said that Pakistan would handover militants to Nato forces if they cross over to Pakistani areas from Helmand province.

Both Pakistan and US forces in Afghanistan have also arrived on understanding of timely intelligence sharing.

Commander of ISAF General General McCrystal during his meeting with Army Chief General kayani assured that US and Nato forces would extend maximum intelligence cooperation to Pakistani forces about militant movement.
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So what more cooperation you need after this??


I think the western Pro-Zionist, Anti-Obama media is perturbed with the fact that a Black president will have a face-saving withdrawl whereas White Bush/es had eggs on their face for every unjust war.

 

[Slides]

"You can always use the prized fighting force that is the ANA to do the work the PA won't do for you."

Not on your lands we can't. The world isn't shocked that you choose proxy warfare to substitute for your manifest weakness in gaining strategic objectives otherwise.

Why not? If you don't like the level of cooperation, stop considering us a regional ally and use your other regional allies, the crack ANA troops and invade us.

It doesn't afford Pakistan, however, the ability to project power by any means other than proxies. Therefore the rest of mankind understands Pakistan's dilemma even if rejecting it's abhorrent and universally condemned methods.

These methods weren't so condemnable in the 1980's, were they? This has very little to do with strategic goals (now) then it has to do with our priorities, capabilities and unwillingness to go into full civil war mode because elements in the US are frustrated. Just like the Americans are unable/unwilling to take on the Taliban in Afghanistan with adequate troop numbers or create a sustainable Afghan security force, we too have our limitations.

The rest of the world hope Baradar's arrest signals a profound change but many here understand doing so will force Pakistan to conduct its pursuit of strategic goals by means it has heretofore shown no capability-diplomacy and economic progress. Those would be a powerful inducement, for instance, to a government of Afghanistan that is only now being raised forth through the help of mankind.

I don't think the rest of the world is looking for profound change like you are, with Pakistan becoming simply the implementation force for US goals. Not going to happen, at least not without a shooting war between the US and Pakistan.

Nor have many in Pakistan yet learned the full cost for attempting the impossible. Those lessons continue to be administered daily to your vulnerable public and are your cost for such a persistent learning deficiency.

Thanks.

We know very well the full cost. The US it seems doesn't, with its fickle non-commitment to the Afghan war. Today, the US forces are in Marjah, tomorrow they may be back stateside, thousands of miles away. PA is today in SWA, Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber and Swat and tomorrow it might move a few miles here or there. We don't have the option or luxury to withdraw or plan for exit strategies and that is why we will fight this war OUR way and not YOUR way.

If you don't like it, then be it

 

[Slides]

Don't like how PA is conducting war on our side of the border, here's how the US trained, equipped, maintained, groomed, supplied, bred ANA is doing:

Military Analysis - Marines Do Heavy Lifting as Afghan Army Lags in Battle - NYTimes.com

Scenes from this corner of the battlefield, observed over eight days by two New York Times journalists, suggest that the day when the Afghan Army will be well led and able to perform complex operations independently, rather than merely assist American missions, remains far off.

 

[kallol]

When will some members of this forum take a pause and introspect as every other responsible country is trying to work out with Pakistan Government regarding the futility of nurturing proxies and inadvertantly creating cozy nests for foreign merceneries ?

Name it - China, UK, Germany, Russia, US, France, Iran and others (forget India & Afghanistan- they do everyday almost).

Can all of them be wrong and what the general people of Pakistan knows is the only right ?

Even this present Pakistan Government admitted about the follies of the past and the army. Even now they are trying their best to have Civilian supremacy but unfortunately because of the divide politics, the army (including ISI) remains the only permanent power centre. In this case please understand that much of the policies remain hidden from general public (unlike in proper civilian government rule).

So brothers take a pause and do not scrap anything and everything which analyses the situation. The murky world of army-intelligence-geo-politics might be too much for the naive general public. And there are media personalities which whip up passion to cover up these murky world and present a dream new world order.

&

 

[S-2]

"The US doesn't behave like a friend"

Irrelevant how you personally view us and your four points are neither an accurate reflection of matters nor represent issues for our concern. It's a certainty though that proxies will keep you from improved relations while a proven fact that they don't achieve your strategic objectives.

"The new generation doesn't even support the use of proxies, but supports the use of armed conflict to take out our enemies."

If you could you long since would have. There will be no open war for Kashmir, Afghanistan nor across oceans with America or Israel. The "new generation" is suicidally stupid. That's already proven and is an indication of social regression when large numbers of your own willingly strap bombs to their bodies.

"If Afghanistan is a post America world becomes our enemy, we have every right to use all means necessary to limit their capabilities from harming us."

Proxy warfare is evidence that you're not waiting for such to evolve and chose a proven failed strategy to get a head-start leading nowhere.

"The US if faced with major destruction won't shy away from nuking anyone again."

We faced major destruction on 9/11 and didn't nuke Afghanistan. Would have been the easiest thing in the world to do, remove the problem and send a great message to anybody else. They harbored a proxy who'd happily have detonated a nuke instead of three jet airliners had they the choice.

"National interest is supreme."

Survival is supreme. There's a difference you are presently incapable of seeing apparently.

"The Americans should know, that what we like, we imitate."

We'll trust that you're not personally responsible for your nuclear weapons employment strategies. You've demonstrated an unsound grasp of facts and theory in the space of a few short sentences.

"We are developing similar attitudes where Pakistan comes first."

You've always held Pakistan first. This is nothing new. You've simply not learned the correct lessons about achieving the ability to win friends and influence people. Read my above post about the limitations of your options to project power. Your army can't. Your government lacks both the economic power and diplomatic skill to induce friendly relations with others. You're left to a strategy of proxy war that's a proven long-term failure which has largely isolated you from true alliances.

Your country hides behind the slaughter gemerated by men like Haqqani from elsewhere. Haqqani and his peers hide in civilian clothes and behind the skirts of women while creating mayhem and terror.

It's a shameful, ignoble and unproductive path your country has followed.

Thanks.

 

[S-2]

"I think the western Pro-Zionist, Anti-Obama media is perturbed with the fact that a Black president will have a face-saving withdrawl whereas White Bush/es had eggs on their face for every unjust war."

"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding."

Proverbs 17:28

Sound advice you'd benefit by adopting.

Thanks.

 

[Spring Onion]

"I think the western Pro-Zionist, Anti-Obama media is perturbed with the fact that a Black president will have a face-saving withdrawl whereas White Bush/es had eggs on their face for every unjust war."

"Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding."

Proverbs 17:28

Sound advice you'd benefit by adopting.

Thanks.:

Same advice for you

Thanks

 

[Awesome]

Irrelevant how you personally view us and your four points are neither an accurate reflection of matters nor represent issues for our concern. It's a certainty though that proxies will keep you from improved relations while a proven fact that they don't achieve your strategic objectives.

Improved relations should not be misconstrued with our willingness to be subjugated. The truth is our support to freedom fighters will be termed as support to proxies. Which will never change, its a war and everything's fair in a war we choose to fight India for the sake of liberating Kashmir.

If you could you long since would have. There will be no open war for Kashmir, Afghanistan nor across oceans with America or Israel. The "new generation" is suicidally stupid. That's already proven and is an indication of social regression when large numbers of your own willingly strap bombs to their bodies.

What is right is right. Just because America points a gun to our head to force us to do the wrong thing doesn't make it right. The new generation is ready to call America's bluff to pull the trigger as it has asserted itself strong enough. As time passes on, we'll only get stronger and more disobedient.

Proxy warfare is evidence that you're not waiting for such to evolve and chose a proven failed strategy to get a head-start leading nowhere.

Nobody is simply supporting the Taliban for the sake of keeping the Afghani government in control. If need be we use all forms of armed conflict to limit their capability to launch terrorist attacks upon Pakistan. Remember while it can't be proven that India is behind those terrorist attacks, Afghanis were caught red-handed in their attack on the Police academy.

We faced major destruction on 9/11 and didn't nuke Afghanistan. Would have been the easiest thing in the world to do, remove the problem and send a great message to anybody else. They harbored a proxy who'd happily have detonated a nuke instead of three jet airliners had they the choice.

Two buildings were destroyed. It's good that you guys consider that major destruction. I think Pakistan needs to think like that too. I like that attitude. But for some reason you think that's suicidal idiocy.

Survival is supreme. There's a difference you are presently incapable of seeing apparently.

Go tell that to your founding fathers that took upon the might of the Britain. Survival is important, but its not enough to survive without holding on to things like your humanity, your nationhood, your ideology. Pakistanis have long lived under the fear of Americans. It's time to change that. Americans will have to deal with us on our terms.

We'll trust that you're not personally responsible for your nuclear weapons employment strategies. You've demonstrated an unsound grasp of facts and theory in the space of a few short sentences.

Or you've just convinced yourself about that. Even I agree we're no where near the capabilities of America, but I won't agree that we can't reach there. America is selling us a defeatist subjugated attitude to impose their will upon us. I'm asking the Pakistanis to fight that, pick up the good stuff along the way but serve Pakistan and not America.

You've always held Pakistan first. This is nothing new. You've simply not learned the correct lessons about achieving the ability to win friends and influence people. Read my above post about the limitations of your options to project power. Your army can't. Your government lacks both the economic power and diplomatic skill to induce friendly relations with others. Your left to a strategy of proxy war that's a proven long-term failure which has largely isolated you from true alliances.

You see our problems as a weakness and want Pakistanis to accept that, thats it. "This is all you'll ever be, Accept it" is the message from some corners of the US. I disagree. We need to work our ***** off, we're poor, we're illiterate, we're corrupt. We need work, but this work can be done. America wants us to remain poor, illiterate and corrupt, because that way we can't ever speak up for the things that put Pakistan first.

Your country hides behind the slaughter gemerated bu men like Haqqani from elsewhere. Haqqani and his peers hide in civilian clothes and behind the skirts of women while creating mayhem and terror.

As opposed to the support to Indian terrorism in Kashmir? Why do you talk about democracy yet can't fight for the right of Kashmiris to simply caste a vote "Do you want to be with Pakistan or India?" Our goal is Kashmir, and it is that original sin that forces our hand to use underhanded tactics because India has already committed the act of war by occupying Kashmir.

It's a shameful, ignoble and unproductive path your country has followed.

Perhaps, but we've only joined the very crowded club.

 

[S-2]

"Why not? If you don't like the level of cooperation, stop considering us a regional ally and use your other regional allies, the crack ANA troops and invade us."

You seem to take pride in comparing the world's seventh largest army that's sixty years old to a nascent, still forming army that coming from a society Pakistan did its best to maintain in a malformed state.

We'd like to keep from destroying you as an alternative to peace. Fortunately that's possible as your proxies do Pakistan more harm than anybody else. That you tolerate them for failed enterprises elsewhere doesn't mean they aren't damaging and nettlesome in their wanton, callous, and brutal slaughter of innocents.

"These methods weren't so condemnable in the 1980's, were they?"

Not when the bulk of mankind stood behind them. Do they now?

"This has very little to do with strategic goals (now) then it has to do with our priorities, capabilities and unwillingness to go into full civil war mode..."

We'll see. Those strategic goals (now or last week) aren't yet revealed to you and others.

"...because elements in the US are frustrated."

The forty nations giving their blood and treasure in Afghanistan are frustrated. So too, and more importantly, the Afghans are frustrated. Your myopia is part of Pakistan's problem.

"Just like the Americans are unable/unwilling to take on the Taliban in Afghanistan with adequate troop numbers or create a sustainable Afghan security force we too have our limitations."

Strawman rationalization. You've an obligation to defend others from the war foisted upon them from your lands. Those that make war include your own citizens like Maulvi Nazir and Hafez Gul Bahadur.

"I don't think the rest of the world is looking for profound change like you are, with Pakistan becoming simply the implementation force for US goals. Not going to happen, at least not without a shooting war between the US and Pakistan."

Oh I think you're willfully wrong about the rest of the world, particularly those with forces engaged in Afghanistan beside us. The rest of that comment is childish machoism.

"Thanks.

We know very well the full cost."

If you did you'd act like it. Harboring the afghan taliban upon your lands radicalized your tribals. Your choice and entirely predictable.

"PA is today in SWA, Bajaur, Mohmand, Khyber and Swat and tomorrow it might move a few miles here or there."

Or another treaty. Bajaur was the first of your operations and only after seven years without.

"We don't have the option or luxury to withdraw or plan for exit strategies"

Should have thought of that eight years ago when you invited the afghan taliban to stay on your lands. It would have made your life and others so much easier.

"...and that is why we will fight this war OUR way and not YOUR way."

Hopefully that's changing. I'll trust in a changed perspective by Kiyani instead of your tenuous grasp of geo-strategy.

Thanks.

 

[Slides]

You seem to take pride in comparing the world's seventh largest army that's sixty years old to a nascent, still forming army that coming from a society Pakistan did its best to maintain in a malformed state.

CIA funding bought Afghanistan to the state its in today. Let's not forget that crucial part and there's no "pride" in comparing the PA to the ANA. It's harsh FACT that the US does not want to fully acknowledge. If the US were to acknowledge that, then you could show the backbone to sit in Afghanistan for the next 60 years to build up the local forces if needed.


We'd like to keep from destroying you as an alternative to peace. Fortunately that's possible as your proxies do Pakistan more harm than anybody else. That you tolerate them for failed enterprises elsewhere doesn't mean they aren't damaging and nettlesome in their wanton, callous, and brutal slaughter of innocents.

Oh really, keep from destroying us? What is keeping you from destroying us or for that matter the taliban, the quetta shura, the PA or the dreaded ISI? A longing for peace? Like, I said, absolutely NO ONE is forcing the US to ally with Pakistan. NO ONE. Do not kid yourself with these idle threats.

Not when the bulk of mankind stood behind them. Do they now?

So, it's ok if this "mankind"consisting of the West and its allies in the region go along with something one day and not the other? And I'm not arguing in favor of supporting any militant group, inside or outside Pakistan, but you seem to think its OK when it suits "mankind's" aka the West's interests.

We'll see. Those strategic goals (now or last week) aren't yet revealed to you and others.


But they apparently have been revealed to you and a number of hack journos. Good one. Rings of the Iraqi WMD attack in 40m mins fable.


The forty nations giving their blood and treasure in Afghanistan are frustrated. So too, and more importantly, the Afghans are frustrated. Your myopia is part of Pakistan's problem.

The forty nations (oops, the Dutch just bailed out, 39 now?) are frustrated because their war can't be rolled up in a few years with limited causalities from the mess the West itself had a large part in creating? Pakistan has seen more causalities then those 40 nations combined, so go whine to somebody else about it. We'll prosecute this war as to our ability and capacity.

Strawman rationalization. You've an obligation to defend others from the war foisted upon them from your lands. Those that make war include your own citizens like Maulvi Nazir and Hafez Gul Bahadur.


It is the ground reality, not a strawman or rationalization. We do not have the capacity to deal with those two individuals. Accept it or invade us with your ANA in hand if you wish. How do you think will transport troops into NWA right now? Flying rickshaws? PA Aviation is currently tied up, so are the infantry troops.


Oh I think you're willfully wrong about the rest of the world, particularly those with forces engaged in Afghanistan beside us. The rest of that comment is childish machoism.

Even all your coalition partners are unwilling to fight in Afghanistan to this day, many of them not providing enough troops, others leaving, while others sitting it out in bases, hoping the taliban to disappear. If that's the level of seriousness or commitment, then may God help NATO.


If you did you'd act like it. Harboring the afghan taliban upon your lands radicalized your tribals. Your choice and entirely predictable.

Tribal history is older then the country of Pakistan or the US. You don't defeat radicalization in the tribal areas by going into full war mode and disregarding the their way of life. Your failure to understand this even after being on this forum for so long is appalling.

Or another treaty. Bajaur was the first of your operations and only after seven years without.

Seven years is nothing. We will try for the next seventy years if we have to, to bring peace to the year using the combination of military ops and jirgas and lashakrs. Sorry, but this cannot be wrapped in a few years. The nature of the conflict does not allow for it.

"We don't have the option or luxury to withdraw or plan for exit strategies"

Nobody invited anyone. The US never planned for this and never put enough troops on the ground. Remember, the US began the war and failed to prosecute it effectively from day one. Don't lump your failures on others.

Hopefully that's changing. I'll trust in a changed perspective by Kiyani instead of your tenuous grasp of geo-strategy.

Only thing that I can hope will change is the 2011 plan to print "mission accomplished" banners.

 

[S-2]

"Improved relations should not be misconstrued with our willingness to be subjugated."

At no point in our shared history can that be a serious allegation despite however necessary to your internal narrative. You've nothing we want and too easy to have destroyed if openly our enemy. Your generals for decades harbored the deepest desires for a strategic relationship with us that wasn't reciprocated as we'd no compelling strategic interests in the region. We did what was necessary to keep your country free from communism.

"The truth is our support to freedom fighters will be termed as support to proxies."

Yes as it's not the globally preferred means of negotiating a bi-lateral dispute. It's de-legitimized any reasoned claims on Kashmir that you may have had.

"Which will never change, its a war..."

Then declare war and be done with it as it's a proven failed strategy otherwise that hasn't, won't nor will achieve your goals.

"What is right is right. Just because America points a gun to our head to force us to do the wrong thing doesn't make it right."

The only gun to your head is that held by yourselves. Long-practiced at the art of holding others hostage to your threatened disintegration.

"The new generation is ready to call America's bluff to pull the trigger as it has asserted itself strong enough. As time passes on, we'll only get stronger and more disobedient."

The rest of us will keep our powder dry and pray that cooler heads than yours prevail inside Pakistan.

"Nobody is simply supporting the Taliban for the sake of keeping the Afghani government in control. If need be we use all forms of armed conflict to limit their capability to launch terrorist attacks upon Pakistan."

I'm glad that at least you admit to using the taliban as a weapon of war upon Afghanistan, ISAF, the U.N. and us. Your honesty is starkly commendable compared to others here and in your government.

"Remember while it can't be proven that India is behind those terrorist attacks, Afghanis were caught red-handed in their attack on the Police academy."

Surprised that it took them so long to have retaliated if true. Catching an Afghan, though, is no more proof than all the Pakistanis we catch daily in Afghanistan. Do more. Do more to make your case.

"Two buildings were destroyed."

Three if you count an entire wing of the Pentagon and 3000 residents and citizens in one hour. All of the city had Al Qaeda a nuke.

"...But for some reason you think that's suicidal idiocy."

I think it's suicidal idiocy to imagine you'll win a war with India that will enable the conquest of Kashmir. It won't happen. I think it's suicidal idiocy to imagine the same with America over Afghanistan or any other perceived grievance. That leaves Iran as a potential near-neighbor threat. I personally encourage the both of you to wail away at one another if you see fit but somehow I doubt that's who you have in mind in this conversation.

"Go tell that to your founding fathers that took upon the might of the Britain."

"Americans will have to deal with us on our terms."

I'll get my white flag ready then.

"You see our problems as a weakness and want Pakistanis to accept that, thats it."

Do you see your problems as a strength?

"'This is all you'll ever be, Accept it' is the message from some corners of the US. I disagree."

That's from some distant corners then. The U.S. government and people absolutely have ZERO interest in promoting a condition of weakness, despondency and despair among Pakistanis. Because you and I disagree on the nature of aid shouldn't be indicative that we wish any harm to your people and government. In this you're terribly incorrect.

"We need to work our ***** off, we're poor, we're illiterate, we're corrupt. We need work, but this work can be done."

Absolutely.

"America wants us to remain poor, illiterate and corrupt, because that way we can't ever speak up for the things that put Pakistan first."

One example to counterpoint such. S. Korea. They were every bit all that you describe above. We've remained steadfast in our support despite S. Korea's decades of military rule and always encouraged civil rule even as we worked with them.

If I'm correct there, why do you presume that my nation harbors such private malevolence for Pakistan despite the decades of effort and the billions spent in your country.? Not all of it was stolen...by far. Much of it was and, is, and will continue to be put to good use in agriculture, counter-narcotics and other venues.

"As opposed to the support to Indian terrorism in Kashmir? Why do you talk about democracy yet can't fight for the right of Kashmiris to simply caste a vote "Do you want to be with Pakistan or India?" Our goal is Kashmir, and it is that original sin that forces our hand to use underhanded tactics because India has already committed the act of war by occupying Kashmir."

Such "underhanded tactics" de-legitimize your objectives. If you held the moral high ground on such an issue, it was ceded almost immediately when proxies poured into Kashmir's princely state following partition. That was sixty years of failed proxy and cold war ago. Your grasp of this issue seems self-destructive to your objectives.

We'll see how matters go in the future but for there to be a settlement agreeable to all parties you'd best be ready for serious compromise. So too the Indians but that's a separate topic.

Thanks.

 

[S-2]

"CIA funding bought Afghanistan to the state its in today."

Horsecrap. Your ignorance of the participants supporting the mujahideen is embarassing if that's what you believe.

"Let's not forget that crucial part..."

Let's hope for your sake that you do as quickly as possible.

"If the US were to acknowledge that, then you could show the backbone to sit in Afghanistan for the next 60 years to build up the local forces if needed."

Sixty years won't be necessary. It took YOU that long to reach your current condition. We've no reason to believe it'll take that long to raise an Afghan army capable of defending itself from your proxies.

"Oh really, keep from destroying us? What is keeping you from destroying us or for that matter the taliban, the quetta shura, the PA or the dreaded ISI? A longing for peace?"

Yes.

"So, it's ok if this "mankind"consisting of the West and its allies in the region go along with something one day and not the other?"

Yes. It makes a considerable difference in the achievable possibilities. You really are all hormones and absent other critical cell mass, aren't you?

"And I'm not arguing in favor of supporting any militant group, inside or outside Pakistan, but you seem to think its OK when it suits "mankind's" aka the West's interests."

Where the alternative was to cede Afghanistan to a highly-capable nuclear power like the Soviet Union and where common concurrence exists between notable powers like the PRC, Great Britain, France, W. Germany, Pakistan, and ourselves as an alternative, of course.

"But they apparently have been revealed to you and a number of hack journos."

Can't speak for the hack journos but it's possible that some good ones know. As for myself, I've no clue what Kiyani intends. I do believe that the afghan taliban government is on your lands and absolutely believe that the Haqqani network owns Miram Shah by tacit agreement. So do others in your own country like Talat Masood.

"Good one. Rings of the Iraqi WMD attack in 40m mins fable."

You must think I care. Iraq had demonstrated its willingness to use chemical weapons repeatedly while slaughtering tens of thousands of its own citizens and making war on its neighbors twice. We were justified to make war simply on their multiple U.N. cease fire violations without regard to any weaponized warheads or otherwise.

Net result? No Saddam. No Baath party. No irridentist adventures in Iran and Kuwait or elsewhere for the foreseeable future. No Iraqi regional hegemony over the Persian gulf, the G.C.C. and KSA. Kurdish autonomy. NO WMD program. A shia-dominated democracy. Yeah. I'm DAMNED pleased by events as they've unfolded.

We'll see how things go but if it's fcuked up again, it won't be because Iraqis haven't been afforded a chance.

"It is the ground reality, not a strawman or rationalization. We do not have the capacity to deal with those two individuals."

Perhaps. That will be clear in the next six months what capacity you possess to prosecute these miscreants. .

Oh I think you're willfully wrong about the rest of the world, particularly those with forces engaged in Afghanistan beside us. The rest of that comment is childish machoism.

"Even all your coalition partners are unwilling to fight in Afghanistan to this day, many of them not providing enough troops, others leaving, while others sitting it out in bases, hoping the taliban to disappear. If that's the level of seriousness or commitment, then may God help NATO."

The Netherlands and Canada both have been projected to leave for two years. Are you new to this news? Who is sitting it out on their bases? Can you tell me? There are unquestionably issues in any joint command but, nonetheless, they are there, patrolling, fighting, and even dying. Rain on their parade all you wish but it's a voluntary endeavor and they've VOLUNTEERED when their immediate self-defense might argue otherwise. More contribute aid, training and mentoring. Had your country possessed such altruism in 1992-94 their efforts today might quite possibly have been unnecessary. Heed a lesson...if possible.

"Tribal history is older then the country of Pakistan or the US. You don't defeat radicalization in the tribal areas by going into full war mode and disregarding the their way of life.'

You defeat such by preventing the radicalizing agent of change from coming or staying on your lands.

"Your failure to understand this even after being on this forum for so long is appalling."

What you perceive as my failing is praise indeed. Thank you.

"Seven years is nothing. We will try for the next seventy years if we have to, to bring peace to the year using the combination of military ops and jirgas and lashakrs. Sorry, but this cannot be wrapped in a few years. The nature of the conflict does not allow for it."

I absolutely concur. Remember such in Afghanistan with their army and more the next time you reach for a snide aside to their efforts to lift themselves from the dust.

"Nobody invited anyone. The US never planned for this and never put enough troops on the ground. Remember, the US began the war and failed to prosecute it effectively from day one."

We prosecuted the war famously and with not much more than 100 Special Forces and our Air Force. You memory is self-servingly short. Winning the subsequent peace hasn't been easy. We share in that by our focus in Iraq and discounting the liklihood that sanctuary would be afforded to our afghan taliban enemy in Pakstan. Without such, we still faced issues of graft and corruption endemic to the region. With such, the problems of peaceful stabilization were far harder.

"Don't lump your failures on others."

Good advice that you can feel free to heed yourself.

"Only thing that I can hope will change is the 2011 plan to print "mission accomplished" banners."

Then I've good news for you. That's subject to conditions on the ground. Our reinforcements are only now arriving. Those you see in Marjah and elsewhere have long been in Afghanistan. As our troop levels rise, so shall they fall IAW those ground conditions. It shall be slow, IMHO.

Thanks.

 

[Awesome]

S-2, I'll put things in another way. You seem to be going on the defensive whereas my real intent is to attempt to make an American understand.

Of course I'm pushing my point of view that you really need to look at yourself for the reasons we are not cooperating with you. I'll go into both.

You're clutching at straws to impose your will upon us. The problem is not Haqqani or the Visas, or the media, the fundamental problem the US has is our assertion of Pakistani national interest.

Our disobedience to America will only increase, until and unless your interests align with ours. You're repackaging half truths about Proxies and burrowing your face under the ground about the truth of supporting tyranny of India within Kashmir. You have bent over backwards to support India with weapons and nuclear trade. Pakistani national interests view those actions as already implementing the destruction of Pakistan.

You can destroy Pakistan, I agree. But that won't suit American desire for the moral high ground, which I'm sure you absolutely believe in and are not crazy evil people. You guys are just wrong and over time will realize the new realities of the world that have changed around you when you pull the face out of the ground.

You must serve our needs FIRST or just don't expect us to do things your way either.

If I'm correct there, why do you presume that my nation harbors such private malevolence for
Pakistan despite the decades of effort and the billions spent in your country.? Not all of it was stolen...by far. Much of it was and, is, and will continue to be put to good use in agriculture, counter-narcotics and other venues.

It is probably not as evil as most Pakistanis put it. We just don't feature on American radar of importance (for anything good). Whenever we disagree the typical American attitude of "With us, or against us" comes into play. You yourself are witness to a few Americans who'd clutch at straws and simply label me as an Islamic fundamentalist for disagreeing with America whereas to most my position on that clear.

I say Pakistan definitely has faults in its relations with America. We view American culture as something wrong, we are even stupid enough to view the freedoms America grants its own people as something wrong. I'm going to correct my own people too for that. Heck watch American sitcoms and sci fi shows, American TV is a treat to watch. American freedoms are something to aspire for. American culture, is mulitcultural and allows for freedoms where each has their right to live life in their own way - unlike in some parts of Europe.

Don't take things as black and white. With us or against us, just doesn't apply.

 

[S-2]

There are too many of you and too few of me here and I'm tired right now of more. OTOH, I appreciate your sentiments deeply and there's room for discussion. Your government's point of view is critical to the success of the U.N.'s mission. So too, though, the views of many others and there Pakistan must be ready to acknowledge that your concerns are not the only nor necessarily paramount.

Doesn't mean that your objectives can't be achieved in a full or acceptable state but it doesn't mean that I've the fuel at a very late hour here to engage either. I have some very strong ideas on achieving a grand accomodation and would be happy to shared them at some point. But not right now. I'm not absolutely certain how much my views align with my own government's. They may or may not. They may absolutely or partially. Then there are all the other views that can play a wild-card role in keeping an accomodation otherwise workable for all from happening.

I'm going to look at a few other threads and call it a night. Thanks for chatting. Your's has actually been a welcome relief compared to some others.

Thanks.

 

[ramu]

Guys, I have been following this discussion for a while and will not add to the difference of opinion. However, I have a few points to make about the comments that relate to India.

Our disobedience to America will only increase, until and unless your interests align with ours. You're repackaging half truths about Proxies and burrowing your face under the ground about the truth of supporting tyranny of India within Kashmir. You have bent over backwards to support India with weapons and nuclear trade. Pakistani national interests view those actions as already implementing the destruction of Pakistan.

"tyranny of India within Kashmir" is not a fair comment. India is holding talks with every element of the political spectrum including the separatists who want peace. India is trying to demilitarise the valley and an undisclosed number of army staff has been withdrawn. The press is Kashmir is independent and free and if I can borrow the terminology of Pakistan, it is a non state actor. We have not jailed editors or journalists for expressing their point of you in contrast to what Pakistan has demonstrated in the recent past. If you want links then please google it and if you cant find them, feel free to ask.
India has invested significant financial assistance to Kashmir inorder to ensure employment and tourism in the valley. Infrastructure including high speed transportation is ongoing. If you call this tyranny, then we call this governance.

We are not dependent only on US for weapons. Consider the MRCA tender. Also refer to the defence expo held recently in Delhi and note that every company in the global defense market had a shop. We want American support for advanced weapon system but that does not mean we don't have alternatives. America is aware of this and would like to sell the technology that will benefit its industries. The fear of proliferation is something specific to some countries that does not include India. America looks at India as a natural ally and the feeling is mutual. America supporting India for a civilian nuclear deal is an product of growing proximity and trust between the two countries and the support has continued despite a change of guard in US of A.

You must serve our needs FIRST or just don't expect us to do things your way either.

Stop non state actors from using your soil to launch attacks of other countries is not a diplomatic obligation. Your expectation on action on the non state actors based on the foreign policy of other countries is beyond comprehension.