The Rafale Factor and Options for the PAF

[GriffinsRule]

its not like that... rafaele has spectra which i suspect wont let put JFT BIII lock on even if it is well within its range.
lock has to come from some where else

theoretically speaking, if location of lock is independent of missile platform, even non AESA platform can track and launch missile on spectra, its not the radar in rafale that you are up against, its the spectra that you are go to go up against

Can you explain why?

 

[snakeman]

Read the article throughly....he says only f22, f35, j20 and su57 are true 5t gen stealth...other are 4+++

Totally Incorrect Information.

Mig 35 & J10 are stealth fighters ? Really ? ( Not even Russia or China, the OEMs have Ever..classified Mig 35 / J10 as "Stealth" fighters.)

Thats news to me.

With due respect the correct way of representation is :

VLO > F22
LO > F35 , J20 , Su 57

NONE of 4th or 4++ Gen including rafale is LO/VLO which means stealth. The word "Stealth" and "Fourth Generation" cant go in the SAME sentence.

Some Read : https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijap/2018/5435837/

Various low observable technologies for an aircraft have been utilized to reduce radar cross section (RCS) to avoid detection by radars and have become a vital design goal of a tactical aircraft. The shape of the aircraft is the most important factor, and in general, low observable performance is targeted at a high frequency region, such as the X band [1]. On the other hand, preliminary researches on the detection of a low RCS aircraft using the radars in a low frequency region have been attempted . In the low frequency, radars can be designed to be installed on the ground or on sea vessels since the size of radar is relatively larger compared to a high frequency system.

 

[khanmubashir]

It hit a chaff cloud.

Mitage and Su30 pulled back as since SOP stated no engagement if enemy has 6 times more aircraft than you

really Sonny it hit a chaff cloud is that the bs they fed to u
did iaf dispatched that helicopter in emergency during conflict to rescue chaff crew ????
the one u shot down in friendly fire

 

[Chanakyaa]

Read the article throughly....he says only f22, f35, j20 and su57 are true 5t gen stealth...other are 4+++

Read the Statement Aagain Yourself. ( for your referance ) :

Line 1 :

The American F-22s and F-35s, the Russian Mig-35s, SU-35s and SU-57s and the Chinese J-10s and J-20s are currently the stealth fighters available in the market.

Utter Nonsense.
Mig 35 and J10 are NOT "Stealth" Fighters

Line 2 :

Of the lot, the F-22s, F-35s, SU-57s and J-20s are considered the truly fifth-generation combat aircraft while the others are rated as Fourth Generation ++ by some commentators.

Wrong Again.
Because NONE of the Fourth generation ( for that matter 3rd Gen. of Chinese ) are referred / categorised as "Stealth" ANYWHERE by ANY commentator.

If its Stealth it cant be Fourth Gen. If its Fourth Gen it cant be Stealth. Period. ( Dont bring in F117 )

Either its Fourth Gen or Its Stealth NEVER BOTH, regardless of the classification.

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

A very interesting question is, would the Thunder B3 even be able to identify, track and lock the Rafale, before the information is passed on to PL-15 for release? Ofcourse, the next part of the questions is, how effective PL-15 would actually be against Rafale if fired from a 100km's away head-on.

Hmm thats the point. Block 3 is being selected to locked Rafale from as far as possible. Its not about shooting down the jet always but to scare them away. Shoot and Scoot

 

[Sulemanms202]

whether 4th gen is stealth or not depens how you define stealth brodahhhh

 

[Signalian]

Totally Incorrect Information.

Mig 35 & J10 are stealth fighters ? Really ? ( Not even Russia or China, the OEMs have Ever..classified Mig 35 / J10 as "Stealth" fighters.)

Thats news to me.

He has clarified in the next sentence. Stop dragging it.

Not ready yet

Probably not customized enough for PAF needs

Only the J10 is available to Pakistan and it is not interested, EFT from Italy has made official rounds between Italy and the PAF. Price is a big hurdle

Price factor with PAF is a strange phenomenon. Aircrafts are expensive and will be expensive as technology progresses. Thrifty is being good, but there is a budget allotted to PAF.
EFT has moved on from Tranche 1 to Tranche 3, that is what PAF should be looking into. Luftwaffe and RAF have already chosen replacements of EFT. PAF faces for threatening situations than both above mentioned AFs, so a modern aircraft needs to join its ranks.

The Eurofighters that are on sale at the moment are all Tranche-1 with very limited capability.
Basically all of the Tranche-1 are for sale, and noone is buying.
The cost to upgrade a Tranche-1 to Tranche-2 is about the same as cost to buy a Tranche-2, so noone is doing that either.
Tranche-1 Eurofighters are simply a dead end.

That is understandable, however any new fighter which is more capable than F-16 in all aspects, will change the dynamics of F-16 politics and its attached strings with respect to PAF. It would be a fresh change to see PAF divert towards any other aircraft, moving its inclination away from F-16.

As the A/C stated in his article, a strong economy is the only long term solution
Equally we have this current threat from India; which may escalate quickly, but it could all just be a bluff we should not go bankrupt trying to manage

Hence we should "take out an Insurance policy"; We should lease Chinese J-10s in time of war, but pay to train and practice on them in China except for exercises in Pakistan. If we do this for about 60 J-10s, we can hedge against the threat, but not get stuck with another 4th gen fighter, when we want to focus on the JF-17.

In the Future if our economy grows well, and the Chinese discount the price; we may try to pick up those J-10s if we feel our JF-17s are still lacking, but we should just be able to borrow the J-10s for a just in case scenario.
------------------
China limited defense spending when they were maximizing their economic growth in the 80s and 90s, and only when their economy was booming and large enough did they start building J-10s and other major new planes in the 2000s.

Pakistan needs to find a way to buy time. An Insurance policy would be the most practical way to mitigate the risk while keeping within our budget.

Back in 1980's, while PAF went for F-16, IAF countered through Mig-29 and Mirage-2000.
More than that, if you look at what PAF has done in the past while IAF started a shopping spree. There was no new foreign aircraft for PAF else than F-7P/PG while SU-30 MKI was being inducted in IAF. There was news in early 2000's about J-10 induction, but PAF was satisfied with JF-17, else than that PAF was looking for dozens of new F-16's till the earthquake occurred. Now IAF is going for Rafale, while PAF will be inducting JF-17 Block III.

It seems PAF plans and inducts according to its own needs, rather than matching fighter induction with IAF.

IMHO, PAF should fast track the procurement of the Chinese F31 with western radar and avionics from Leonardo.

Sir, PAF Mirages are to be replaced also

 

[MastanKhan]

@The Eagle @

How did You ever make Think Tank?
Spain will still have Tranche-1 aircrafts after the ”upgrade”
They are not upgrading to Tranche-2 or Tranche-3.

Hi,

I had to read the boeing statement a couple of times---. You are correct---it is in two parts---first about tranche 1 and then the second about tranche 2&3.

 

[Signalian]

Now In short, Priorities (Highest(top) to lowest(bottom))

• JF-17 Block 3 (>100)
• HQ-9B+HQ-16 Combo
• Procure at least 3 more AWACS and consider getting some mini awacs from China as well if they are worthy enough
• J-16/FC-31 (36 at most) for DEAD ops escorted by AWACS and a second wave of Thunders and F-16s
• Lastly, F-16 upgrades and possible further procurements.

188 x JF-17 can amount to 10 Fighter Squadrons. There are total 18 Combat squadrons in PAF + 1 for PN?
5 x Squadrons for F-16 and 5 x Squadrons for JF-17, so far.
Assuming that at 18 aircraft per squadron rate, if JF-17 is inducted in 5 more Squadrons, that leaves 3 x squadrons for any other type of aircraft.
How will you start accommodating ?

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Guys @Zarvan @Syed Hammad Ahmed @Maxpane , just get over with this Rafale hype.

Countering JUST 36 Rafales is quite easy with our current resources as well. Call it a threat but not an unavoidable threat.

S-400 gives advantage to india in terms of increasing their radar coverage and to keep an eye on our jets as well as deny us airspace much further inside Pakistan. To counter this, we do the same, Get an enhanced version of HQ-9 (not necessary to match the range of S-400, Indian S-400 might have detection range of around 600KM but what matters is the tracking range which won’t be more than 350km by any chance. We can have a multi layered umbrella made up of HQ-9 (280+KM) and HQ-16 (70-80KM) close to the border to deny indian Rafales or MKIs entering our airspace and to keep our Command And Control updated with the live movements inside India. This will keep their rafales at bay and will prevent the BVR engagements of Block 3 and Rafale.

Now, the important thing to keep in mind is that we are a defensive force, our top priority is denial of airspace followed by providing cover to our fighters.

In the case of offense, The Priority must be SEAD ops by our AWACS and DEAD by either Block 3 or Mirages but i would rather keep J-16 or FC-31 for this unique role, i wish PAF does look into this. J-16 is what you can ACTUALLY call a “Mini-Awacs” while FC-31 can avoid S-400 for most part of flight INSIDE INDIAN AIRSPACE.

Lately, the issue is not single, but there are 2 separate issues and we always mix them up.

Issue 1 - S-400, Issue 2 - Rafale

Issue 1 is an actual issue, something that can’t be avoided but can be primarily as well as secondarily countered, Primarily through SEAD DEAD ops and Secondarily by posing a similar threat to India in the form of HQ-9 or the new anti stealth radar that was spotted not too long ago.

Now In short, Priorities (Highest(top) to lowest(bottom))

• JF-17 Block 3 (>100)
• HQ-9B+HQ-16 Combo
• Procure at least 3 more AWACS and consider getting some mini awacs from China as well if they are worthy enough
• J-16/FC-31 (36 at most) for DEAD ops escorted by AWACS and a second wave of Thunders and F-16s
• Lastly, F-16 upgrades and possible further procurements.

All the above mentioned points should be implemented before 2026, AZM can carry forward till 2032-35

Rumour is that FC-31 v3 will fly very soon, like in a month or so. We are going to Have IDEAS 2020 as well as Zhuhai AirShow 2020, We can expect at least some development in this regard. I bet PAF despite going towards AZM, has eyes fixed on FC-31, because you don’t make something perfectly until you own something of its class for some time, so we might actually see some J-31s in PAF colors. If the flight goes fine, there might be another prototype of v3 by the end of this year or by next year, followed by the possible Low Rate Initial Productions if PLAAN/PLAN puts forward a requirement. PLAN might order it if this is the very much touted J-35 (FC-31 v3), so guys, Keep calm, Future is Good inshaAllah.

@Mangus Ortus Novem @Basel @Trailer23 @Hodor @ziaulislam @fatman17 @seven0seven @FuturePAF @MastanKhan @The Eagle @Windjammer @Signalian @aliyusuf @HRK @Bilal Khan (Quwa)

Replace AWACS with Stand Off Jammers.

 

[StormBreaker]

188 x JF-17 can amount to 10 Fighter Squadrons. There are total 18 Combat squadrons in PAF + 1 for PN?
5 x Squadrons for F-16 and 5 x Squadrons for JF-17, so far.
Assuming that at 18 aircraft per squadron rate, if JF-17 is inducted in 5 more Squadrons, that leaves 3 x squadrons for any other type of aircraft.
How will you start accommodating ?

Not taking into account the financials, i would order 36 SU-35s and a squadron of J-20. The squadron of J-20 doesn’t have to be 18 in number. 12 would do the work.

Place 1 SU-35 squadron at Masroor, 1 squadron of SU-35 at Peshawar, and the J-20 squadron could go to Kohat or Samungli

Replace AWACS with Stand Off Jammers.

How effective are they ? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
Any examples of the best in SOJs

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

How effective are they ? @Bilal Khan (Quwa)
Any examples of the best in SOJs

Turkish Koral Jamming system
@MMM-E @cabatli_53

 

[StormBreaker]

Turkish Koral Jamming system
@MMM-E @cabatli_53

And USA, Chinese as well as French SOJs please ?

 

[Path-Finder]

It seems PAF plans and inducts according to its own needs, rather than matching fighter induction with IAF.

 

[aliyusuf]

Replace AWACS with Stand Off Jammers.

How effective are they ? ...

Don't you think we would need to know and be aware that a threat is approaching first? That is, when and at which direction should we start jamming? In my opinion, that will be done by the combo of AWACS and ground based radars. First we need to detect them and then we decide what to do ... i.e. jam them or something else.

So the question of replacing the AWACS with SOJs don't arise, as they are not mutually exclusive, in my humble opinion.