The Rafale Factor and Options for the PAF

[fatman17]

The Eurofighters that are on sale at the moment are all Tranche-1 with very limited capability.
Basically all of the Tranche-1 are for sale, and noone is buying.
The cost to upgrade a Tranche-1 to Tranche-2 is about the same as cost to buy a Tranche-2, so noone is doing that either.
Tranche-1 Eurofighters are simply a dead end.

Perhaps but all modern aircraft can now be upgraded to a particular requirement. For PAF, the 2nd hand / used / EDA market is attractive from a financial angle and money spent on upgrades is well spent. The Mirage ROSE program is a good example. The F16 program is similar. Block 15s upgraded to 40, ex - RJAF F16s AM / BM, these are good examples of service life extension when funds are in short supply. The EFT alleged purchase stalled because the Italian price estimates were too high.

 

[mingle]

Perhaps but all modern aircraft can now be upgraded to a particular requirement. For PAF, the 2nd hand / used / EDA market is attractive from a financial angle and money spent on upgrades is well spent. The Mirage ROSE program is a good example. The F16 program is similar. Block 15s upgraded to 40, ex - RJAF F16s AM / BM, these are good examples of service life extension when funds are in short supply. The EFT alleged purchase stalled because the Italian price estimates were too high.

I think Italy sold them to eygpt along warships and other equipment worth $$$9 billion

 

[A.P. Richelieu]

I have mentioned in some post above already that Tranche-3 is what PAF should be looking into.


I think that financials have been used towards acquisition of JF-17 squadrons also. Probably R&D and up-gradation of JF-17. Could be a hint that PAF may go towards a new aircraft type after all JF-17 squadrons have been inducted. Block-III induction is yet to take place.

I agree,
Tranche-3 would make sense, Tranche-1, not so much.

Perhaps but all modern aircraft can now be upgraded to a particular requirement. For PAF, the 2nd hand / used / EDA market is attractive from a financial angle and money spent on upgrades is well spent. The Mirage ROSE program is a good example. The F16 program is similar. Block 15s upgraded to 40, ex - RJAF F16s AM / BM, these are good examples of service life extension when funds are in short supply. The EFT alleged purchase stalled because the Italian price estimates were too high.

It is extremely expensive to do an upgrade and You are likely to need support from manufacturers which will not be getting additional sales, so they will charge you for the full development - and more. The US provided off the shelf upgrades to the F-16. There are no such upgrade packages for the Tranche-1. Most companies will be looking at the bottom line, and your business proposal will be compared to other business proposals where additional business is to be had.
The Tranche-1 does not use the same flight computer as the Tranche-2 and 3.
It has much less performance, and cannot run the S/W that enables much of the functionality of the latter.
Not sure, but I think that I read somewhere that the internal communication buses are different, so You cannot even connect to new weapon on the most basic electrical level.
If You are prepared to rip out all the electronics and replace it with something Chinese then you would be able to enhance it in the future, but you would not be able to build more.

You need to compare the cost of such a program to the cost of buying new Tranche-3.
RAF does not believe it makes sense.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

EFT Tranche 3 the only best option against Rafales

 

[Pakistani Fighter]

have mentioned in some post above already that Tranche-3 is what PAF should be looking into.

Too expensive. And BVR would be Meteor same as IAF's Rafale

 

[aliyusuf]

Since you are talking about detection and radars.

If AWACS detects a certain IAF flight formation vectoring towards some location inside Pakistan, would you rather have JF-17 scrambled as ADF or F-16 or both ?

Secondly, if there is a strike mission, will JF-17 Block-II be more suitable with its PD Radar or F-16 or JF-17 Block-III with its AESA entering IAF skies? or would you use a combination of all these aicrafts to compliment each other and why ?

There could be many other variables involved to influence the situation and our choices.

To the first part of your question, if possible I would send both. JF-17 would come in handy with it's lower RCS and the Viper with it's AMRAAM.

To the second part of the question, JF-17 Block-III accompanied by the other two. Hopefully with Block-III with it's AESA radar (which I believe is LPI) and the other two with their radar switched off (for as long as possible) to minimize detection depending upon the feeds of the AWACS and the Block-III thunder and buddy launching via TDL. Both Thunder and Viper have good EW capability. I would definitely use the Viper against Indian armor using the AGM-65 Maverick.

But I would not try to venture too much into Indian air space ... as their AD systems are better and more numerous than ours and they would be outnumbering us by several times on their air space. If possible, use ALCM or long range SOW from just about the border and scoot ... till it becomes absolutely necessary to go deeper and for longer duration.

 

[Incog_nito]

EFT Tranche 3 the only best option against Rafales

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I guess to keep the minimum deterrence, PAF needs to acquire these:

50+ EF-2000s
22+ F-16s Block-52s.
xx used F-16s A/B with MLU-4 from the US as they have a lot of them.

I'm sure Pakistan can pay for this in the near future as they have to pay in 5 years' time, not in a month. Privatization would enable us to have more money in our hands.

 

[Haris Ali2140]

I guess to keep the minimum deterrence, PAF needs to acquire these:

50+ EF-2000s
22+ F-16s Block-52s.
xx used F-16s A/B with MLU-4 from the US as they have a lot of them.

I'm sure Pakistan can pay for this in the near future as they have to pay in 5 years' time, not in a month. Privatization would enable us to have more money in our hands.

And tell me what is there to privatize???

 

[Incog_nito]

I guess we will be procuring a total of 200 JF-17 (I,II,III, & Bs).

We still need some other Aircraft to complement like:

EF-2000s
F-16 Block-52s
used F-16 A/B with MLU-4s
J-10 Cs.

There are many Govt. organization taking billions of rupees from Govt to run. When they will be sold they will not only offer money for reserve but also Govt doesn't have to pay them to run at all.

And tell me what is there to privatize???

 

[Mav3rick]

Hmm thats the point. Block 3 is being selected to locked Rafale from as far as possible. Its not about shooting down the jet always but to scare them away. Shoot and Scoot

Actually, the real question, until answered subjectively and factually with evidence, is whether thunder would even be able to track and lock Rafale with Rafale's state of the art suite of sensors and EW capabilities.

 

[StructE]

EF not ET

He probably meant "Extra Terrestrial"

 

[ziaulislam]

Can you please compare prices of Typhoon and F-16s and then come back here to make arguments?

Would you rather buy 36 f16s or 18 rafale ?
Price difference is 30% by looking at recent deals

Dicussion it self useless...PAF can neither afford f16 nor any western fighter

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Would you rather buy 36 f16s or 18 rafale ?
Price difference is 30% by looking at recent deals

Dicussion it self useless...PAF can neither afford f16 nor any western fighter

IMO we may be able to squeeze in a few more F-16s on our own if US allows. If we are lucky, US might release CSF and maybe we see more BLK 52s or BLK 70/72(maybe I am being too optimistic). But a new platform no way in hell with current economic conditions.

 

[TsAr]

I guess to keep the minimum deterrence, PAF needs to acquire these:

50+ EF-2000s
22+ F-16s Block-52s.
xx used F-16s A/B with MLU-4 from the US as they have a lot of them.

I'm sure Pakistan can pay for this in the near future as they have to pay in 5 years' time, not in a month. Privatization would enable us to have more money in our hands.

Privatization would be done to improve the economy not to buy more planes.....

 

[Haris Ali2140]

Privatization would be done to improve the economy not to buy more planes.....

LOLz the assets Govt. wants to sell were even offered on basis of by 1 get 1 free. Even then no one came up. I don't know why he has his hopes pinned on privatization.