The Pakistani Soldier

[Irfan Baloch]

no offense but the sacrifices and the will of a pakistani soldier is much greater that an american soldiers'

that was totally uncalled for. give respect to get respect
thats what makes us better human beings than a band of fanatic terrorists

 

[Irfan Baloch]

The sad fact of the matter is that the sacrifice of a Pakistani soldier is for and on behalf of the Americans.




And so you should considering the fact that Pakistan's sons are dying for uncle Sam.

.

Maybe I would be able to appreciate your point of view if America were fighting a just war against an equipped enemy on even nearly equal terms.



Where is the bravery in dropping bombs from B52 bombers on women and children? The bravery to be admired is that of those who resist your nations imperialistic aims and objectives with the meager resources they have to hand.





It just shows the stupidity of those cattle like young persons you are referring to that they would give up their lives to fly thousands of miles to occupy another mans country in order to fulfill a corrupt capitalist agenda. Do spare a thought for those young men such as Dilawar who had his life and dreams and ambitions snuffed out at the hands of your so called "best and bravest."

I beg to disagree mister.. Pakistan Army is fighting for the sovereignty of the country and the oath to protect the state from internal and external enemies

Put the political sarcasm aside and spare few thoughts for the soldiers who have put their lives on the line. They have no role in the international politics and they didn’t ask to come here. We should be happy to express our point of difference with freedom in the west.

Because the people we are up against in Swat and tribal areas don’t even recognize the meaning of disagreement or criticism. These murderers just label you as a spy and then gleefully behead you and make a video of that as well.

Coming to your point about collateral damage, innocent loss of life is always sad and condemnable there shouldn’t be any other view on that but please don’t be selective on criticizing the civilian deaths from US or Pakistani Military. While one can debate if such incidents where intentional or accidents but the terrorists never ever leave you with a doubt when they send a 12 or 15 year old brainwashed boy laden with explosives into a Mosque. Care to condemn that as well or will you wait till one of your loved one falls victim to such attack?

We must criticize all wrongs regardless who was to blame otherwise its hypocrisy and will end into a pointless debate where one would blame the army for all the deaths of the civilians (while keeping a mum on the terrorists atrocities) while the other one will point at terror attacks on hotels, schools and mosques and this will not get us anywhere.

Enjoy your stay in UK “MATE” at least you wont get your throat slit for saying anything you like. Sadly the people under Taliban controlled areas are not that fortunate.

peace

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

The sad fact of the matter is that the sacrifice of a Pakistani soldier is for and on behalf of the Americans.




And so you should considering the fact that Pakistan's sons are dying for uncle Sam.

.

Maybe I would be able to appreciate your point of view if America were fighting a just war against an equipped enemy on even nearly equal terms.



Where is the bravery in dropping bombs from B52 bombers on women and children? The bravery to be admired is that of those who resist your nations imperialistic aims and objectives with the meager resources they have to hand.





It just shows the stupidity of those cattle like young persons you are referring to that they would give up their lives to fly thousands of miles to occupy another mans country in order to fulfill a corrupt capitalist agenda. Do spare a thought for those young men such as Dilawar who had his life and dreams and ambitions snuffed out at the hands of your so called "best and bravest."

is it bravery walking into a crowded market and blowing urself up or is brave to pull random people from their houses and cut their heads off. Dont sit behind a screen and degrade our troops. You cant justify what the taliban are doing ur not from the region and ur conviently in another country with none of it affecting ur family and relatives.

 

[Conscientious objector]

I beg to disagree mister.. Pakistan Army is fighting for the sovereignty of the country and the oath to protect the state from internal and external enemies

If its the sovereignty of the country that is the main concern then why fight to fulfill the agenda of america? america has no permanent allies only permanent interests.Do you think the americans cares for the sacrifices of the Pakistan army or its people? Wake up and smell the coffee.

Because the people we are up against in Swat and tribal areas don’t even recognize the meaning of disagreement or criticism. These murderers just label you as a spy and then gleefully behead you and make a video of that as well.

The same could be said of the extreme secularists who would label anyone who disagrees with them as a terrorist and then bombs them into submission,so called freedom and democracy being forced down the throats of the people by the barrel of a gun.

Coming to your point about collateral damage, innocent loss of life is always sad and condemnable there shouldn’t be any other view on that but please don’t be selective on criticizing the civilian deaths from US or Pakistani Military. While one can debate if such incidents where intentional or accidents but the terrorists never ever leave you with a doubt when they send a 12 or 15 year old brainwashed boy laden with explosives into a Mosque. Care to condemn that as well or will you wait till one of your loved one falls victim to such attack?

I will condemn any intentional targeting of civilians regardless of whoever is responsible and I've said nothing to the contrary.

We must criticize all wrongs regardless who was to blame otherwise its hypocrisy and will end into a pointless debate where one would blame the army for all the deaths of the civilians (while keeping a mum on the terrorists atrocities) while the other one will point at terror attacks on hotels, schools and mosques and this will not get us anywhere.

This goes without saying and I fail to see any statement on my part that has led you to believe otherwise.

Enjoy your stay in UK “MATE” at least you wont get your throat slit for saying anything you like. Sadly the people under Taliban controlled areas are not that fortunate.

peace

No need for your sarcasm "buddy", and would I feel safe from secularist extremists for daring to disagree? Or would I be labeled as an unpatriotic terrorist sympathiser and tortured or sold to the americans?

is it bravery walking into a crowded market and blowing urself up or is brave to pull random people from their houses and cut their heads off.

You know what you can do with your straw man argument don't ya?Where have I suggested that such actions are acts of bravery,or where have I sought to condone such actions? It seems in your world if anyone doesn't agree with you 100% the they must agree 100% with the opposing view.Where did you take this outlook of yours from? Wait don' tell me it was George W Bush when he declared your either with us or with the terrorists.I don't buy your neo con rubbish use it on someone else.

Dont sit behind a screen and degrade our troops.

Degrade your troops? You are the one who is degrading the troops by implying that they are sheep who wholeheartedly follow the agendas of the west without thinking for themselves.I know there are many brave young men in the Pak army who think exactly as I do,and they have every right to do so without being labeled by the likes of you.

You cant justify what the taliban are doing ur not from the region and ur conviently in another country with none of it affecting ur family and relatives.

How dare you tell me what is or what isn't affecting me mr Yousafzai or from what region I am or am not? You don't know anything about me so keep your false assumptions to yourself.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I will condemn any intentional targeting of civilians regardless of whoever is responsible and I've said nothing to the contrary.

Then there should be no condemnation of the PA, at least, here.

The Taliban however brag about their 'intentional targeting of civilians'.

 

[Conscientious objector]

Then there should be no condemnation of the PA, at least, here.

I have not condemned/accused the P.A of such, so no need for your comment, although indiscriminate bombing without showing due concern is not the same as intentionally targeting.

The Taliban however brag about their 'intentional targeting of civilians'.

Don't parrot propaganda, bring facts.Show me the statements where they have bragged about intentionally targeting civilians so that I may denounce them for it loudly and clearly.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I have not condemned/accused the P.A of such, so no need for your comment, although indiscriminate bombing without showing due concern is not the same as intentionally targeting.

You essentially did just that in the underlined part above.

There is no evidence of 'indiscriminate bombing by the PA' (though, again, it would be stupidity to believe that any military campaign in a populated area can be carried out without some sort of damage to non-combatants and their belongings).

The PA and PAF have both clarified their RoE's for using artillery and airstrikes, and the journalists that have been taken on tours of Swat have commented on the fact that there was little visible damage substantiating the argument of 'indiscriminate bombing'. Just because Imran Khan and the other Taliban appeasers say so does not make it God's word.

Don't parrot propaganda, bring facts.Show me the statements where they have bragged about intentionally targeting civilians so that I may denounce them for it loudly and clearly.

How quaint - so the TTP accepting responsibility for the PC bombing, Dr. Naeemi's killing, and the multiple bombings in the mosques in the NWFP is not enough for you eh?

The Lal Masjid Mullah's and the various Taliban leaders threatening to send suicide bombers everywhere in Pakistan is not enough eh?

 

[Conscientious objector]

There is no evidence of 'indiscriminate bombing by the PA' (though, again, it would be stupidity to believe that any military campaign in a populated area can be carried out without some sort of damage to non-combatants and their belongings).The PA and PAF have both clarified their RoE's for using artillery and airstrikes, and the journalists that have been taken on tours of Swat have commented on the fact that there was little visible damage substantiating the argument of 'indiscriminate bombing'.

I'm more inclined to believe those on the receiving end rather than the accused.

cPacLYviMy4[/media] - Pashtun Interview in Waziristan about how Pakistan Army bombs innocent pashtuns

V2mkVhxMnNM[/media] - Pakistan destroying Pashtun children schools in Waziristan

b4JnYmKltmc[/media] - There is no difference between Israel and Pakistan

Just because Imran Khan and the other Taliban appeasers say so does not make it God's word.

A perfect example of your Neo con Zionist mindset which dictates that anyone who raises any objection must therefor by default be a terrorist.Much like how the Zionists label anyone who questions the actions of the I.D.F as antisemitic.

How quaint - so the TTP accepting responsibility for the PC bombing, Dr. Naeemi's killing, and the multiple bombings in the mosques in the NWFP is not enough for you eh?

The TTP have justified such attacks by pointing out that there were legitimate targets at those locations, for example the military personnel that were attending the Mosque in Nowshera when it was attacked.Dr Naeemi would be an obvious target for his campaign against the TTP, and we must bear in mind that he was killed after Friday prayers in his office where as if the objective was o kill as many people as possible then the attacker could have easily struck in the main mosque during prayers.

Please note I am in no way justifying such attacks but if we are going to say that the army can not avoid killing civilians to in order to fulfill it agenda then the same must be said for the TTP.

The Lal Masjid Mullah's and the various Taliban leaders threatening to send suicide bombers everywhere in Pakistan is not enough eh?

Well it depends on how you would define everywhere, if that means bombing market places then that would fall into the category of targeting of civilians and this would be reprehensible,but if everywhere means every place where military and government interests are targeted then that would not be considered targeting of civilians.

Again let me emphasise I am in no way condoning such actions I'm just looking at the issue objectively from a neutral standpoint.



.

 

[Xeric]

I'm sure many in the Pak army would agree with me wholeheartedly and when I say "I'm sure" I mean I know this with certainty.

Let me do the honor to kill your concern right here!

You are just plain wrong!

We are fighting for the country and we and our men know what and whom are they fighting for. Yes it is a war that never was ours but was imposed on us. Now, it is something of our survival, the earlier you accept this the better it is. May this war be for the furtherance of some Western agenda or a CIA test fire, the fact remains that it is going to burn Pakistan, which we are not going to allow!

Today's soldier is not the same 'yes sir, ok sir' machine, he reasons and comfortably refuses to do something that doesn't fits in his brain! This is something taken as a 'threat' to military norms, but at the same time it is also necessary and required in fighting today's war, any war i mean.

 

[EyelessInGaza]

...................
The TTP have justified such attacks by pointing out that there were legitimate targets at those locations, for example the military personnel that were attending the Mosque in Nowshera when it was attacked.Dr Naeemi would be an obvious target for his campaign against the TTP, and we must bear in mind that he was killed after Friday prayers in his office where as if the objective was o kill as many people as possible then the attacker could have easily struck in the main mosque during prayers.

Please note I am in no way justifying such attacks but if we are going to say that the army can not avoid killing civilians to in order to fulfill it agenda then the same must be said for the TTP.
.............


Again let me emphasise I am in no way condoning such actions I'm just looking at the issue objectively from a neutral standpoint.

All collateral damage is regrettable. But there's a significant difference between the collateral damage caused by an armed force of a still largely democratic state, still supported by the majority of its population, and the collateral damage caused by a murderous, savage, barbaric horde.

I could go on and on but the essential difference is this: The army tries to target combatant enemies and tries to avoid collateral damage. Terrorists consider collateral damage an important part of tactics.

Instead of appreciating the fact that the TTP targeted Dr Naeemi after Friday prayers, I would examine the reason they had to at all murder an unarmed man who spoke out against them?

A free people can and should speak up against the collateral damage caused by their armed forces. A free people should speak out for civilians caught in the crossfire.

But - there is no neutral standpoint, or objectivity, when dealing with murderers. There is no moral equivalence between the state and murderers. None. To even consider that is to give an equivalence which is false and enervating.

The victor in this war will decide what society will look like in SWAT and other parts of Pakistan, perhaps all of Pakistan. There's a lot of justifiable outrage over collateral damage; there should be a heck of a lot more outrage over the terrorists version of the new social order.

 

[Conscientious objector]

All collateral damage is regrettable. But there's a significant difference between the collateral damage caused by an armed force of a still largely democratic state, still supported by the majority of its population, and the collateral damage caused by a murderous, savage, barbaric horde.

The IRA were considered murderous,savage,barbaric etc and now they play a part in the political process of the united kingdom.Hamas which is the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people is seen as a terrorist organisation by the Israelis,I'm sure the Nazis viewed the French resistance as Murderous etc as well,I hope you get my point.

I could go on and on but the essential difference is this: The army tries to target combatant enemies and tries to avoid collateral damage. Terrorists consider collateral damage an important part of tactics.

One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter

Instead of appreciating the fact that the TTP targeted Dr Naeemi after Friday prayers, I would examine the reason they had to at all murder an unarmed man who spoke out against them?

The fact that he was undermining their agenda and acting as a proxy mouthpiece for the government in order to turn the public against them might have had something to do with it.

A free people can and should speak up against the collateral damage caused by their armed forces. A free people should speak out for civilians caught in the crossfire.

But - there is no neutral standpoint, or objectivity, when dealing with murderers. There is no moral equivalence between the state and murderers. None. To even consider that is to give an equivalence which is false and enervating.

Terms such as Murderers etc are relative, why would you consider state sponsored terror as legitimate and the reaction to it illegitimate?

The victor in this war will decide what society will look like in SWAT and other parts of Pakistan, perhaps all of Pakistan. There's a lot of justifiable outrage over collateral damage; there should be a heck of a lot more outrage over the terrorists version of the new social order.

The social order as it has existed in Pakistan for the past 50 years or so is the real outrage .Its the elitists secularists/capitalists at the top that have the most to lose in the event of an overhaul of the existing system.Justice,health,education etc for the common man is not exactly high on their list of priorities.That is the real travesty of justice.

 

[moha199]

no offense but the sacrifices and the will of a pakistani soldier is much greater that an american soldiers'

I would agree with you over this

 

[rokhanyousafzai]

You know what you can do with your straw man argument don't ya?Where have I suggested that such actions are acts of bravery,or where have I sought to condone such actions? It seems in your world if anyone doesn't agree with you 100% the they must agree 100% with the opposing view.Where did you take this outlook of yours from? Wait don' tell me it was George W Bush when he declared your either with us or with the terrorists.I don't buy your neo con rubbish use it on someone else.




Degrade your troops? You are the one who is degrading the troops by implying that they are sheep who wholeheartedly follow the agendas of the west without thinking for themselves.I know there are many brave young men in the Pak army who think exactly as I do,and they have every right to do so without being labeled by the likes of you.



How dare you tell me what is or what isn't affecting me mr Yousafzai or from what region I am or am not? You don't know anything about me so keep your false assumptions to yourself.

ok lets sit back and have it ur way lets stop all army operations and work for a peace deal oh wait we tried that. Do u have any idea wat these taliban are doing and what they have done in swat. What sort of a pashtun are u dont u care about the honour of our women and what these begharata arab appeasing slaves have done to them. Dont u care about the youth they have slaughtered and the innocents they have slaughtered in swat and in open markets. Begharata dont u care about our pashtoonwali that they have raped. The army didnt do a thing for 8 years now why are they acting why dont u read muslim khans intercepted call or listen to it and he says the air strikes in waziristan have killed alot of important men for them. Its a professional army what do u expect troops to do, will everyone just go off and do their own thing. Once again dont degrade the army noone in the army suppourts this cancer.

How dare u call urself pashtoon without understanding the misery my people had to endure under the taliban and wat it has done to our people and our nation. Your mentality is the reason our people are suffering. It clearly doesnt affect u if ur not backing these arab slaves being slaughtered

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I'm more inclined to believe those on the receiving end rather than the accused.

cPacLYviMy4[/media] - Pashtun Interview in Waziristan about how Pakistan Army bombs innocent pashtuns

V2mkVhxMnNM[/media] - Pakistan destroying Pashtun children schools in Waziristan

b4JnYmKltmc[/media] - There is no difference between Israel and Pakistan

Hogwash - what you have is anecdotal evidence indicating exactly what I said is impossible to avoid in any military campaign in a populated area - unintentional civilian casualties. You have in no way substantiated your claim of 'indiscriminate bombing'.

On the other hand, both Western and Pakistan journalists taken into Swat validated the comments I made about no visible evidence justifying the 'indiscriminate bombing' claim.

A perfect example of your Neo con Zionist mindset which dictates that anyone who raises any objection must therefor by default be a terrorist.Much like how the Zionists label anyone who questions the actions of the I.D.F as antisemitic.

Have I engaged in name calling with you? I haven't, so I'd appreciate it if you refrain from the ad hominems and wack job conspiracy theories - Neo-con zionist indeed, should have also added 'Hindutva'.

Imran Khan's (IM the Dim is very appropriate as well, as FM often says) ludicrous views are for all to see. His arguments are fantasies - any man who calls a group carrying out suicide bombings, beheading, torture etc. (against both civilians and soldiers) a 'political movement', is nothing but a lunatic.

He needs to be admitted into the Shaukat Khanum psychiatric ward post haste.

The TTP have justified such attacks by pointing out that there were legitimate targets at those locations, for example the military personnel that were attending the Mosque in Nowshera when it was attacked.Dr Naeemi would be an obvious target for his campaign against the TTP, and we must bear in mind that he was killed after Friday prayers in his office where as if the objective was o kill as many people as possible then the attacker could have easily struck in the main mosque during prayers.

How many, military personnel were there in the mosque in Upper Dir? From what I remember they were all civilians, children amongst them, who were massacred by your beloved Taliban. No wonder the villagers raised a Laskhar to hound these swine out of Upper Dir.

And how many 'soldiers were in the PC'? What 'military' or 'armed action' was Dr. Naeemi leading? He was a vocal supporter of the military operation against the Taliban, as am I, as are the 17 and 50 year olds on this forum, as are millions of Pakistanis. So now all of them are liable to be killed by a suicide bomber because of our 'campaign against the TTP'?

My God, listen to yourself you deluded terrorist supporter, justifying the murder of innocents.

Please note I am in no way justifying such attacks but if we are going to say that the army can not avoid killing civilians to in order to fulfill it agenda then the same must be said for the TTP.

Hogwash again, you are doing just that, you jsut justified every single terrorist attack the Taliban recently claimed by trying to provide reasons for it. Read your own post again above.

Well it depends on how you would define everywhere,

Going by their targets so far - mosques, barbershops, religious scholars, hotels, cricket teams - it is pretty clear what 'everywhere' means.

 

[kidwaibhai]

Conscientious objector, dude you are freaken crazy. you need to look into yourself and realize that you are rationalizing the murder of innocent women and children by barbarians who would not give a second thought of beheading you if it served their interest.