The only way to tackle terrorism in Pakistan is to reform or close down Madrasas

[syedali73]

...their butts are on fire

Moulvi ki zubaan dekho. Madrassey mein is tarah baat karna sikhatey hein?

 

[Psychic]

Merey bhai, today we are living in a world were 'capacity' is preferred over 'number', and not any 'capacity' but specialization. To be a good practicing Muslims how much Islam one needs to know? Besides, one does not need to go to any madrassah to learn Quran by heart, now there are far better teachers avaiable who help you achieve that more scientifically and in shorter period of time on internet and for free. Internet has revolutionized our lives and if one is committed he can learn anything on the inernet. Do you really think 300-yards, double story so-called 'Jamia tafheem ul this and that' give their disciples quality education? Then almost all of these Madrassah's are sect-specific and churn out people with extremely narrow theological approaches. Even if no violence is taught, the brains are washed and made intolerant towards other beliefs hence prone to violence.

Not all moulvis are black sheeps but those who are not are unfortunately silently supporting those who are and we have seen this several times in the meetings and press releases of 'Wafaq-al-Madaris'. Has Wafaq-al-Madaris cancelled Aziz's madrassah's registration? Is there any doubt left in the involvement of Aziz the swine and his swineherd in terrorism? What actions were/are taken against him by those who, according to you, are not like him? Bhai they are all one and united and tens of thousands of these madrassahs are part of a cartel and those fat assess representing these madrassahs in Wafaq-al-madaris are Dons and ring leaders printing currency from this business while churning out like-minded bigots who one day will take over this country like ISIS.

There must be only one education system in Pakistan, kids must be taught basic Arabic and Islamiat (non-Muslims exempted) up to the level of metric and that is it. After that if someone wants to know more about Islam, take Islamiat as major subject along with Arabic and go up to the level of PhD. There is nothing that MA Islamiat does not cover that is offered by the madrassahs except of-course sectarian narrow mindedness.

Keeping a watchful eye on them and devising a proper curriculum is the solution to the madrassah problem. I am still against banning them, on the other hand I have no problem if some of them are banned for not complying with the govt's terms. Still madrassahs cater for the needs of the poor and orphans, also better not poke your hand into a bee hive, when we have many other problems at hand.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

@Secur

You still are going round in circles and repeating the same trash as before. I’ve already exposed your LIES of the ''60K SECTARIAN’’ deaths you claim. I’ve told you 57K deaths are directly and indirectly relating to War on Islam and 60k wounded!

I have principles and one of those are NEVER debate a liar!

Pakistani Civilians | Costs of War

Pakistan: 57,000 Killed in Undocumented War

The US has steadily increased its support of counter-insurgency campaigns by the Pakistani government and its compensation of Pakistan for assistance to the US war in Afghanistan.



This increased US support has coincided with a dramatic escalation of the conflict between local Pakistani insurgents and their government. It is difficult to know how many have died in Pakistan since 2004 due to the violence and how many of those are civilians.

Most of the fighting is concentrated in the Northwest, near the border with Afghanistan, but the bloodshed not infrequently affects civilians throughout Pakistan. Sectarian conflict targeting the country’s minority Shia population has been on the rise in recent years.

Nearly 57,000 Pakistanis (combatant and non-combatant) have been killed since 2004 and more than 60,000 have been seriously wounded during that period by the various parties to the conflict.

The US began its semi-covert campaign of drone strikes in 2004 to kill Al Qaeda and Taliban forces based in Northern Pakistan. According to the highest estimates, these strikes have killed between 2,000 and 3,800 people as of early January 2015. The arguments about how many of the dead are civilians are nearly as intense as the disputes about the legality of the strikes. Many legal scholars regard them as clear violations of international law.




The Pakistani Security Forces have also killed civilians with mortars, direct fire, and with bombs as they target militants in several major offensives in the Swat Valley and neighboring districts. In some years, it appears that Pakistani security forces were responsible for the majority of civilian killings.

The burden of war is also evident in the number of Pakistanis who are both internally displaced and who have sought refuge in other countries. Although the exact numbers are difficult to determine, millions of Pakistanis have been pushed from their homes in the last several years. (Text updated as of June 2015)

 

[Secur]

You still are going round in circles and repeating the same trash as before. I’ve already exposed your LIES of the ''60K SECTARIAN’’ deaths you claim. I’ve told you 57K deaths are directly and indirectly relating to War on Islam and 60k wounded!

If you want a way out because you cant answer the points raised in the post without going out of context and resorting to your emotional tantrums, please feel free to leave. This drama of having principles and liars isn't going to help you here. There's no war on Islam, its the radicalization and extremism within the Muslims which has come to bite them, in a very delayed reaction. Keep shifting the blame or adopting a denial posture, it wont help you in any way.

About time you start to read posts carefully because I never said anything about sixty thousand deaths being the sectarian body count. It is total number of causalities in the war on terror. People killed in sectarian clashes aren't even included in the count for obvious reasons.

The Pakistani Security Forces have also killed civilians with mortars, direct fire, and with bombs as they target militants in several major offensives in the Swat Valley and neighboring districts. In some years, it appears that Pakistani security forces were responsible for the majority of civilian killings.

So, suddenly we have started to believe the words of infidels over Muslims (our own Govt and Army) because its convenient? What is the point of this emphasizing on these parts of articles otherwise? I have seen no hypocrisy worse than religious hypocrisy in my life TBH!

 

[Luffy 500]

PAK is a typical 3rd world post-colonial secular liberal muslim majority state. Its run by liberals since its inception in 47 and just like the rest of the muslim world its still intellectually colonized by secular liberal west. Madrasas don't run PAK state , liberals & feudals do. Ayub khan, Tikka khan, Bhutto, Benazir, Musharraf were not madrassa students but western educated secular liberals. SO why r madrasas blamed for all ills of a secular liberal state? This thread seems to be a good example of a frustrating intellectually colonized islamophobic liberal , fretting abt what went wrong while trying to superimpose western doctrines and values on muslims in a post-colonial era.

 

[Secur]

SO why r madrasas blamed for all ills of a secular liberal state?

Not for all things, of course, radicalization and extremism and that too for the last three decades. And it has caused extensive deadly long term damage. We have lost 60k Pakistanis (including children) to this menace fueled and run by a large number of Madaris and millions of our fellow countrymen have adopted a extreme rigid barbaric interpretation of religion, of course we are angry.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

PAK is a typical 3rd world post-colonial secular liberal muslim majority state. Its run by liberals since its inception in 47 and just like the rest of the muslim world its still intellectually colonized by secular liberal west. Madrasas don't run PAK state , liberals & feudals do. Ayub khan, Tikka khan, Bhutto, Benazir, Musharraf were not madrassa students but western educated secular liberals. SO why r madrasas blamed for all ills of a secular liberal state? This thread seems to be a good example of a frustrating intellectually colonized islamophobic liberal , fretting abt what went wrong while trying to superimpose western doctrines and values on muslims in a post-colonial era.

You appear to have no idea of what is going on in Pakistan. The Madaris create the enabling conditions for the problems we have in Pakistan. They create the mindset. That pool that they create is where the vector of sectarianism/terrorism feeds on. Thus there is a correlation between Madaris and terrorism. Not a absolute but nevertheless and correlation exists. Everybody knows this but nobody has the political courage to say so and sort out the Madaris by muzzling some of their hate filled teaching.

 

[ghazi52]

..................................
Crackdown on 48 seminaries ‘promoting terrorism’ planned

Chaired by Sindh Chief Minister Syed Qaim Ali Shah, the provincial apex committee meeting under way at CM House on Thursday.—PPI
KARACHI: The Sindh government has decided to initiate a crackdown on 48 seminaries which have been found to be promoting terrorism in the country in general and in the province in particular. Besides, a task force has also been constituted to check finance sources of terrorism, including protection money, ransom money, land grabbing, smuggling and collection of donations, hides and Fitra.

These decisions were taken by Chief Minister Syed Qaim Ali Shah during the Sindh apex committee meeting, which was presided over by him at CM House here on Thursday. Governor Dr Ishratul Ibad also attended the meeting on a special invitation. Others who attended the meeting included provincial ministers Sharjeel Inam Memon, Syed Murad Ali Shah, Dr Sikandar Mandhro, Suhail Anwar Siyal, and Corps Commander Lieutenant General Naveed Mukhtar, Rangers DG Major General Bilal Akbar, Sindh IG Ghulam Hyder Jamali, Home Secretary Mukhtiar Soomro, Karachi Commissioner Shoaib Siddiqui, Law Secretary Meer Mohammad Shaikh, Advocate General Fatah Malik, Prosecutor General Sher Mohammad Shaikh and provincial heads of intelligence agencies.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

If you want a way out because you cant answer the points raised in the post without going out of context and resorting to your emotional tantrums, please feel free to leave. This drama of having principles and liars isn't going to help you here. There's no war on Islam, its the radicalization and extremism within the Muslims which has come to bite them, in a very delayed reaction. Keep shifting the blame or adopting a denial posture, it wont help you in any way.

About time you start to read posts carefully because I never said anything about sixty thousand deaths being the sectarian body count. It is total number of causalities in the war on terror. People killed in sectarian clashes aren't even included in the count for obvious reasons.



So, suddenly we have started to believe the words of infidels over Muslims (our own Govt and Army) because its convenient? What is the point of this emphasizing on these parts of articles otherwise? I have seen no hypocrisy worse than religious hypocrisy in my life TBH!

What more is there to say when you've tried to mislead others with your data of 60k sectarian related deaths. This is even after you've been corrected and I've posted evidence, but you still persist in your folly! It's been proven true that 57k deaths are related to post 2001 misalignment with Christendom. I've relied on people living in that region and evidence from above. Once you've been caught out and you've resorted to name-calling. Hypocrites like Durrani talk about there is NO War with TTP, but only for show. ''We warn them that we're coming''. ''They're taking revenge for drones'' I suggest you watch Al-Jazeera where he attends in Oxford University. I rest my case!

What is there to talk about when ''patriots'' like you turn over because of mere threat of state terrorism about bombing us back to the stone age? I asked you before, what has NOT providing access got to do with them threatening us with MURDER? Why didn't they try IRAN? The Caspian Sea? Why should we bear the burden of what happened on 9/11? It was NOT our WAR! NO PAKISTANI was involved! Our territory was NOT used in planning, or in execution of the heinous act!

What has them turning us into Afg got to do with anything? I DON'T care if the WHOLE World came to fight us; I would fight for my land, family, and honour! Otherwise, become everyones w****! Hey, in 2001 US congressman said a Pakistani would sell his mother for a $1000. After 14 years, they say Pakistanis are so cheap all it takes is a dinner, a visa! This what happens when you have no honour and self-respect!

These are NOT madaris graduates, but scum that sewers spewed out!

As far as using non-Muslim sources to expose you, who said I can't? You don't accept Islamic sources, but it better than making things up! You've also mentioned Jews???? Are we at War with them? Allah tells us not ALL Jews and Christians hate us. Zionists hate everyone! I'm using a Jewish software and most likely hardware. Does Allah forbid me from using technology?

Read carefully and stop spinning round like a darwish! As far as I'm concerned this topic is over!

 

[Secur]

What more is there to say when you've tried to mislead others with your data of 60k sectarian related deaths.

Just find me a single instance where I mention anything about sixty thousand "sectarian"deaths, that would be all. I am not looking for an essay or your emotional rhetoric, the opiate of the masses has a strange effect of numbing the rational mind so that it wouldn't even recognize it's enemies and know what's better for it. I quite understand, however the problem is your revered Mujahids (with Islamic honorary titles) waging a war against Pakistanis (predominantly Muslims) in Pakistan just because they consider the state's involvement in war on terror (cleansing of the tribal belt for us mostly due for decades) as a treachery with Muslims. What a logic that is too!

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

And spark sectarian clashes . typical khatmal

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Just find me a single instance where I mention anything about sixty thousand "sectarian"deaths, that would be all. I am not looking for an essay or your emotional rhetoric, the opiate of the masses has a strange effect of numbing the rational mind so that it wouldn't even recognize it's enemies and know what's better for it. I quite understand, however the problem is your revered Mujahids (with Islamic honorary titles) waging a war against Pakistanis (predominantly Muslims) in Pakistan just because they consider the state's involvement in war on terror (cleansing of the tribal belt for us mostly due for decades) as a treachery with Muslims. What a logic that is too!

I've wasted way too much time on this. You rejected when I said from the outset ‘’60K deaths’’ are as a result of post 2001 in FATA . The data supports this and proves you're wrong. I’ve said to you time and time again; the Pashtoons have a tradition of revenge and they’re blaming drone attacks on the Government.

The accumulative effect of your comments is 60K killed is due to sectarianism. Below are a few of your misguided quotes:

‘’However, even they haven't caused as much damage as the Mullahs responsible for murder of 60k Pakistanis (incl the children of Army public school) and polluting the minds of the young and vulnerable with their insane version of religion.’’

''Your Mullahs have had the direct or indirect control of the country since the eighties, what have you done to correct the deficiencies of the secular system? Injected people with sectarianism and radicalization and hoped for cure, right?''

What more can I do?

You have a habit of jumping from one topic to another; 9/11, Jews, and now ''mujahideen''. You must learn the rules of discussion and remain on topic.

''...wouldn't even recognize it's enemies and know what's better for it.''

We know who they are; the haram kour, rishwat kour politicians. And lets add extremist secularists to the list.

''I quite understand, however the problem is your revered Mujahids (with Islamic honorary titles) waging a war against Pakistanis (predominantly Muslims) in Pakistan just because they consider the state's involvement in war on terror (cleansing of the tribal belt for us mostly due for decades) as a treachery with Muslims. ''

I wish you did understand, but you don't! They are not MUJAHIDIN those who murder civilians in Pakistan (or in New York, Bombay, London, Madrid, France, etc). This is NOT from Islam.

Pre-2001, no drones, no Army operations in FATA = NO TERRORISM! We were all happy! Nothing to do with Madaris or any other concocted fairytale.

I hope this is not too difficult for the said ''rationale'' mind to comprehend and accept the truth and shun his anti-Madaris rants.

What puzzles me from your ardent, hatred for Muslims is, why are you the way you are? Did a Moulvi steal your goat? You can't blame every Moulvi! There are good Muslims and like in any other relgion bad people as well. Think and reflect upon what has been said with a cool heart. Indeed Allah oft-forgiving and most compassionate!

 

[SQ8]

Pre-2001, no drones, no Army operations in FATA = NO TERRORISM! We were all happy! Nothing to do with Madaris or any other concocted fairytale.

I hope this is not too difficult for the said ''rationale'' mind to comprehend and accept the truth and shun his anti-Madaris rants.

What puzzles me from your ardent, hatred for Muslims is, why are you the way you are? Did a Moulvi steal your goat? You can't blame every Moulvi! There are good Muslims and like in any other relgion bad people as well. Think and reflect upon what has been said with a cool heart. Indeed Allah oft-forgiving and most compassionate!

Far from it. The massive sectarian wars of the 90s are proof enough of the sins of the Madaris and the mindset they breed .Not to mention that ever since 47 these Mullahs have carried out their so called public enforcements against innocent people with one of the most brutal murders carried out a mosque near Lahore after it started blocking roads for Sharia and mutilated the body of a Policeman who went to talk to them at a naive attempt at calming these animals. Every moulvi thought his duty to impose his idea of Sharia upon the rest of Pakistan shows the utter lack of respect these people have for the lives of others and the Pakistani state.

Less said the better of their so called morality and wanton enforcement of so called Sharia and pure ideals. From being the only ones watching Veena Malik take her clothes off to the only people who knew how to bypass the censorship filters that were put on western films in the 80s by using a cloth(NO ONE ELSE KNEW HOW TO WATCH THE BIKINI SCENE FROM JAMES BOND EXCEPT THE MULLAH @Secur , it was blurred using a filter which according to the Mullah could be bypassed if a see through cloth was used).

To top it off, far from stealing their goats. These Madaris people steal away women, teach young girls who come to learn various sexual ideals in the name of Islam and then leave those poor parents wondering if they are committing a sin not giving their 14 year old daughter to a Bearded "man of religion".

Lets not forget the brutality of beatings and that sadistic mentality that propagates within these institutions. But no, these people are people of god and hence all Pakistanis need to worship them. Stealing a goat?? You would rather be the goat that these men of religion steal.

And oh, these houses of sin are not confined to Pakistan.
Hundreds of Muslim children 'abused in UK madrassas' | Daily Mail Online


BUT... BUT

There is an alternate as well.

NOT ALL MADARIS ARE EVIL, 50-70% MAYBE. not all. Many of these provide a good foundation for education along with free lodging and food whilst brining their students into some form of educated ideas. But this is compared to the already poor state of education and child welfare in Pakistan. So essentially, where there is nothing available the Madressa is the only alternative that seems to work. Regardless of how pithy or foul it may or may not be they provide some alternative to what the state has failed to provide. Hence, unless the state can actually offer a guaranteed better alternative to these places.. expecting any less terrorism or extremism in Pakistan by closing them down is folly.

 

[Secur]

I've wasted way too much time on this. You rejected when I said from the outset ‘’60K deaths’’ are as a result of post 2001 in FATA . The data supports this and proves you're wrong. I’ve said to you time and time again; the Pashtoons have a tradition of revenge and they’re blaming drone attacks on the Government.

I never rejected the figure of sixty thousand deaths since two thousand and one. Why would I? That is the biggest most persuasive evidence against the religious extremists in Pakistan waging a war against the people of the country, something I repeatedly used in the argument with you. I rejected the "all explaining" conspiracy theory that religious extremism and terrorism is explained and (more importantly) rationalized by the participation in War on Terror (which you again conspiringly call an alignment with Christendom). The religious terrorists in this country are more than capable and enough to cause death and destruction as evidenced by their words and actions, no Christendom-Zionism-Hinduism needs to get involved from outside. Just because the Pashtuns have a tradition of revenge doesn't mean that our attempts to cleanse the tribal belt of criminal and terrorists elements and end the status of "illaqa-e-gher" are unjustified, illegal or somehow unislamic. The critical long due cleaning of the tribal belt is further supported by the fact that thousands of foreign nationals, a terror economy and weapon factories were present in the belt as evidenced by the findings in recent Zarb-e-Azb all prove Musharraf's decision right. In 2001, it was about time that we start integrating that area properly into the country.

You have a habit of jumping from one topic to another; 9/11, Jews, and now ''mujahideen''. You must learn the rules of discussion and remain on topic.

I don't have a habit of jumping from one topic to another. The problem is my view of the whole situation doesn't have an "idealistic" oversimplified explanation with conspiracy theories. The various things are interlinked starting with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan resulting in the present-day full blown open religious extremism and terrorism, hence I cant make it easy for you.

I wish you did understand, but you don't! They are not MUJAHIDIN those who murder civilians in Pakistan (or in New York, Bombay, London, Madrid, France, etc). This is NOT from Islam.

I debunked this excuse of yours, posts ago. Your repetitive saying to the point of ad nauseam that these people aren't Muslims and somehow foreign agents doesn't explain and rectify the problem (only if it could, most problems of this country wouldn't have existed by now). This isn't from Islam, this is however by Muslims. Unless of course TTP, Al-Qaeda LeJ, ASWJ, SSP, LeM, Ghazi force, Jundallah, Islamic movement of Uzbekistan, East Turkestan movement including smaller not commonly known groups are secular and foreign entities, Muslims are at fault and you need to start introspecting. The foot soldiers and leaderships for these terrorists organization (around 40k approximate for all) didn't come from proper educational institutions. This isn't merely revenge (a small part of the problem and not the whole problem itself) as you so easily put it out to be, there's a genuine problem of radicalization and extremism in this country.

What more can I do?

Work on your comprehension issues perhaps? So that you understand posts properly and don't have to repeat your misunderstandings again and again. This is the third or fourth you are stuck on 60k sectarian deaths, even when you have not a single post of mine saying anything such.

What puzzles me from your ardent, hatred for Muslims is, why are you the way you are? Did a Moulvi steal your goat? You can't blame every Moulvi! There are good Muslims and like in any other relgion bad people as well.

Hatred for Muslims? Whats it with the Mullah supporters to label everyone critical of their idol's policies and actions to be anti-Islamic or Islamophobic? No, just killed my countrymen en masse and polluted the minds of an astronomically large number. I believe, that is worst than "stealing my goat". I can blame most for this mindless frenzied killings, nothing is absolute of course. I don't exactly see Christians, Hindus or Jews killing each other in the name of religion, don't use "the good and bad people in religion" excuse.

 

[Luffy 500]

Not for all things, of course, radicalization and extremism and that too for the last three decades. And it has caused extensive deadly long term damage. We have lost 60k Pakistanis (including children) to this menace fueled and run by a large number of Madaris and millions of our fellow countrymen have adopted a extreme rigid barbaric interpretation of religion, of course we are angry.

You lost 60K muslims bcs of joining the US lead "war on terror" . Madrasas have nothing to do with your secular's gov foreign policy.

"extreme rigid barbaric interpretation" of religion is subjective. WHat's extreme to intellectually colonized liberal "muslims" may very well be the basic tenet of Islam . Problem starts occurring when these intellectually colonized liberals stars imposing their new western religion on the state and arm twisting muslim on orders of their secular western/Indian/russian/chinese masters. Imposition of anti-islamic values on a muslim society produce legitimate grievances that are easily exploited by extremist who r not necessarily madrasa students. The secular liberal extremist fuel the extremist who happens to be muslims . The OP and this thread is a good example of secular liberal extremism.

You appear to have no idea of what is going on in Pakistan. The Madaris create the enabling conditions for the problems we have in Pakistan. They create the mindset. That pool that they create is where the vector of sectarianism/terrorism feeds on. Thus there is a correlation between Madaris and terrorism. Not a absolute but nevertheless and correlation exists. Everybody knows this but nobody has the political courage to say so and sort out the Madaris by muzzling some of their hate filled teaching.

What's going on in PAK is going on in the rest of the intellectually colonized muslim world i.e foreign backed & intellectually colonized secular liberals trying to superimpose western religion, doctrines & values on majority muslim pop. thereby fueling the other extreme and then blaming madrasas which have existed for 1000s of years. PAK is nothing special in that regard.

Btw extremism results from ignorance of religion. To counter that you need to go back to religion. An Islamic society can only counter extremism NOT a intellectually colonized society. How abt inviting the Islamic university of Medina to draw a comprehensive curriculum for madrasas and also a comprehensive Islamic studies curriculum for secular schools so that threads like these are not posted on a open forum:

Pakistan should be a Secular State

The only way to tackle terrorism in Pakistan is to reform or close down Madrasas

But that would go against secularization project of the west & their intellectually colonized resident "muslims".