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The only way to tackle terrorism in Pakistan is to reform or close down Madrasas

You can add the electrical engineer Azhar Ishrat from SSUET and Hafiz Nasir (no surprises there) acquiring MA in Islamic studies from KU. Not if they were scurrying around with Mullahs and terrorists organizations, translating Jihadi literature into English and using the university-acquired skills for the progress of extremist ideology, not something the secular education wants you to do. Add to that, there being no precedence of higher education institutions being even supportive of this madness let alone participate in it, the argument falls flat. The seminaries have a long past associated with radicalization and extremism, there is a very high number of them which have been accused and found involved in anti state/anti social activities. If not, it creates an atmosphere of narrow mindedness, blind following and intolerance of difference of opinion resulting in it. Its the most logical answer to questions such as. Where do the foot soldiers for all these terrorists/extremist organization come from? What is the origin of all of these abundant Mullah/Qari/Mufti/Hafiz/Moulvi getting arrested or killed in clashes with the security forces? Sure, there are highly educated misguided people in the ranks of terrorists, however they are very few in number and found in almost all cases found to have gotten involved with a certain religious personality.

Its an entire education system gone wrong, these Madarsas, churning out graduates which aren't equipped to deal with any modern challenge or contribute to the society and by large the country in any positive way having no marketable worldly skills. Just how many people you need for leading prayers or offering funerals or performing other rituals? Heavy reforms are needed to curtail the radicalization which develops as a result of the atmosphere found in present day Madarsas (don't start with those of the past which taught extensive secular education too).



For instance? What besides limited religious jobs is religious education good for?



The extremist version of your religion is being blamed for causing death of 60k Pakistanis and for turning a great many into the same killers/murderers to continue the ordeal of terrorism. A distinction that doesn't lie with the extremist secularist, they aren't killing for difference of opinion and interpretation and not even in the name of God (which in itself is a great irony and grave sin). All that you associate with the opposite counterparts of religious extremists (SOBs as they may be), doesn't include widespread terror-brainwashing and senseless murders around the country. Think about it.



Would it turn them into anything better than the promoters of radicalization and extremist, than they are today? If yes, feel free. If no, consider reforms and necessary treatment with force. There is a problem at hand, supposing its not here or blaming others for it, isn't going to make it better or magically make it disappear.



What is so religious about science so to term it Islamic? Considering that the Westerners have been in charge of it for the past three to four hundred years and there's very little that can be attributed to Muslim scientists. Science is no one's mistress, our own brothers open minded and tolerant as were, utilized the knowledge of those before them. Nothing popped out of the sky suddenly or magically appear, as the local Mullahs would have you believe. Since then, Muslims became more involved in petty questions, non-issues, labeling worldly things as haram, each others as infidels and to sum it up narrow minded, its not exactly a result of distance from religion as they want you to believe. Science requires an open mind and the courage to ask questions seemingly forbidden by religion, not tauba astaghfar every time someone says something which is out of ordinary or not traditional.

You’re using their deaths to justify YOUR narrative. The deaths are a DIRECT result of joining Christendom’s war on Islam. The deaths are primarily in the FATA region. The hard core ideological TTP are only small in number, but the rest are out for revenge.

Was there any insurrection pre-2001? NO!
Pashtoon have a culture of revenge and they blame the Government for the loss of their loved ones. For them we’re allowing the drones and hence we’re equally responsible.
Who is bombing us from DRONES and MURDERING civilians? Muslims? Or CHRISTENDOM?
Who murdered two ISI agents in cold blood in Lahore? RAYMOND DAVIS, was he a graduate of a Madrassa?
The EXTREMIST SECULARISTS are the ones who have unleashed our Army on ourselves! They are the dogs in power!

I don’t want to repeat what I’ve already posted in past threads. I asked people living in that region and are working here in A.K. No propaganda! People tell you what REALLY goes on there. Just real, hard facts!

’If no, consider reforms and necessary treatment with force’.

I like your Clint Eastwood style bravado. It’s silly! You and whose Army are going to use ‘’force’’, so that we become less MUSLIM? I’m a Brelvi-sufi and I know you’re all hot air!

We have MADARASS popping-up here in A.K like pop-corns. Come and TRY to stop them. Please don’t TALK, just try it! It will be fun to see.

The irony of your statements is that YOU’RE trying to change MY country an Islamic country to something that’s acceptable to Christendom. Here is the deal, pack your things and all those like you and get out and don’t come back.

If you want to have a theological discussion, I’d be happy to take you on. Open another thread! Fyi, knowledge from Allah, people are mere asbab!

We’re MUSLIMS and PROUD of IT!
 
You’re using their deaths to justify YOUR narrative. The deaths are a DIRECT result of joining Christendom’s war on Islam. The deaths are primarily in the FATA region. The hard core ideological TTP are only small in number, but the rest are out for revenge.

Was there any insurrection pre-2001? NO!
Pashtoon have a culture of revenge and they blame the Government for the loss of their loved ones. For them we’re allowing the drones and hence we’re equally responsible.
Who is bombing us from DRONES and MURDERING civilians? Muslims? Or CHRISTENDOM?
Who murdered two ISI agents in cold blood in Lahore? RAYMOND DAVIS, was he a graduate of a Madrassa?
The EXTREMIST SECULARISTS are the ones who have unleashed our Army on ourselves! They are the dogs in power!

I don’t want to repeat what I’ve already posted in past threads. I asked people living in that region and are working here in A.K. No propaganda! People tell you what REALLY goes on there. Just real, hard facts!

’If no, consider reforms and necessary treatment with force’.

I like your Clint Eastwood style bravado. It’s silly! You and whose Army are going to use ‘’force’’, so that we become less MUSLIM? I’m a Brelvi-sufi and I know you’re all hot air!

We have MADARASS popping-up here in A.K like pop-corns. Come and TRY to stop them. Please don’t TALK, just try it! It will be fun to see.

The irony of your statements is that YOU’RE trying to change MY country an Islamic country to something that’s acceptable to Christendom. Here is the deal, pack your things and all those like you and get out and don’t come back.

If you want to have a theological discussion, I’d be happy to take you on. Open another thread! Fyi, knowledge from Allah, people are mere asbab!

We’re MUSLIMS and PROUD of IT!

Why shouldn't I? Give me a single good reason instead of emotional statements and deluded notions of the world as to why should we discard the death toll larger than even the ones in all three wars with India. This is how much damage the Mullahs have caused to the country. Just how absurd can you get by starting to claim the deaths of Pakistanis are a result of joining a war? Should we have had the country bombed by the Americans or you have some unrealistic delusion of the might of PA to fight the Yanks? How exactly does the argument of Muslims killing Muslims just because Muslims are being killed elsewhere by the Infidels work? I never figured it out. The deaths of Pakistanis and acts of terrorism have happened all over the country, open your eyes and see the enemy within! Declaring it a foreign war, an outside conspiracy and passing the blame of your own mistakes and blunders wont make it right. Who has been responsible for the death of 60k Pakistanis? Minus the drone strikes (which are largely beneficial for the country and strike where the PAF cant under the covert permission of the military) and a few acts of random terrorism, its the religious ideological terrorists who have caused the worst chaos, damage and terror in the country in its entire history.

No, that is because the drug of radicalization and extremism was still going strong before the attack on twin towers. A withdrawal occurred after Musharraf rightly changed the policy of supporting extremists/terrorists in the country and elsewhere. Hence the cropping up of so many religious nut jobs in the country trying to defend the religion when there's no danger to the religion except for the one from the Muslims. Sure, pass the blame to "secular extremists" when its your own hyper religious brethren blowing themselves left, right and center or trying to neutralize the ones whom they don't consider as Muslims. Its all secularist's fault, this menace of terrorism being supported by the Madaris, the Jihadi training and radicalization/extremism being drilled into young minds, the ever present sectarianism and riots over sects, the declaration of technology/medicines/activities as forbidden, the rejection of modern world and worldly life, promotion of narrow mindedness, the sermons promoting hate and intolerance among the Pakistanis, the literature and pamphlets being distributed widely with pseudoscience and ever changing irrational interpretation of religion. All very secular, isn't it? I think that you heard about the "secular" in the Friday sermon by the local Mullah so to know literally nothing about it.

There's a reason why F.A.T.A. has been in the stone-ages since the independence of the country and well you state it fine. Its the mindset of the people living in the area, coupled with religious overdoses and blunder of the establishment. An action was necessary to weed out the past creationary mistakes of Taliban and assorted Jihadi groups who had built a stronghold in the region and disturbed not only the law and order of the area but of the whole country at large. Musharraf made the right decision to cleanse the area and bring it back to the jurisdiction of the country. Now, don't start to blame the Govt just because those people consider the removal of criminal/terrorists elements as an attack on themselves. The infrastructure and economy running on terrorism uncovered during the latest Operation Zarb-e-Azb should open your eyes, these people (Tajiks, Uzbeks, Chechens, Arabs) didn't arrive suddenly nor were the weapon factories/torture cells/bunkers were created in one day, this has been going on for a long time in the tribal belt and there was a need to take care of it. The reason for the extensive damage is that the action came very late, decades late! The army has been rightly unleashed to take care of the problems it created itself in the past. Unless of course you think that the insanity of "illaqa-e-gher" should have continued to time immemorial. Hard, cold facts.

Prescribe me a better treatment to those who don't agree to long due reforms and necessary changes and continue the policy of what has harmed Pakistan most. Tell me, without again resorting to injecting the opiate of the masses, the logical cure for Lal-Masjid style thousand of seminaries in the country? Should they be left just because you consider routing out terrorists/extremists as an attack on the religion? And tone down the rhetoric, reserve it for when your brother-in-arms and fellow Muslims come to kill you someday having overdosed on religion. Its not my kind which is looking to silence every other person with a difference of opinion and some interpretation of Islam, sadly. That credit remains truly with hyper religious crowd. Of course the creation of new Madarsas continue undeterred in your area, the production of more children than one can afford never really showed any signs of slowing down in this country. And Christendom or any other dom needs nothing to do with you anymore, you people are yourselves more than capable to destroy. Why should anyone wage a war from outside when you will gladly declare each other infidel and shed blood in the name of God?

I never said that you shouldn't be proud to be Muslim, where exactly does that insecurity and irrational need to defend religion arise from every time? Is that some underlying repressed thought process of realization of religion being used wrongly by the masses while your conscious minds passes the blame to secular forces, foreign agents? Relax, I am not looking to force down my opinion/thought down your throat, that distinction again remains with the hyper religious crowd.
 
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I think education and working on the economy is the way to go. Intellectual and material poverty are the main problems in this country and aid terrorism. It is important to fix those and everything else will follow for the most part. Yes, protection and safety of civilians is important and should be maintained, but to say that closing madrassas is the way to go is not correct in my opinion. Those are simply symptoms, you have to cure that which leads to those symptoms.
 
Why shouldn't I? Give me a single good reason instead of emotional statements and deluded notions of the world as to why should we discard the death toll larger than even the ones in all three wars with India. This is how much damage the Mullahs have caused to the country. Just how absurd can you get by starting to claim the deaths of Pakistanis are a result of joining a war? Should we have had the country bombed by the Americans or you have some unrealistic delusion of the might of PA to fight the Yanks? How exactly does the argument of Muslims killing Muslims just because Muslims are being killed elsewhere by the Infidels work? I never figured it out. The deaths of Pakistanis and acts of terrorism have happened all over the country, open your eyes and see the enemy within! Declaring it a foreign war, an outside conspiracy and passing the blame of your own mistakes and blunders wont make it right. Who has been responsible for the death of 60k Pakistanis? Minus the drone strikes (which are largely beneficial for the country and strike where the PAF cant under the covert permission of the military) and a few acts of random terrorism, its the religious ideological terrorists who have caused the worst chaos, damage and terror in the country in its entire history.

No, that is because the drug of radicalization and extremism was still going strong before the attack on twin towers. A withdrawal occurred after Musharraf rightly changed the policy of supporting extremists/terrorists in the country and elsewhere. Hence the cropping up of so many religious nut jobs in the country trying to defend the religion when there's no danger to the religion except for the one from the Muslims. Sure, pass the blame to "secular extremists" when its your own hyper religious brethren blowing themselves left, right and center or trying to neutralize the ones whom they don't consider as Muslims. Its all secularist's fault, this menace of terrorism being supported by the Madaris, the Jihadi training and radicalization/extremism being drilled into young minds, the ever present sectarianism and riots over sects, the declaration of technology/medicines/activities as forbidden, the rejection of modern world and worldly life, promotion of narrow mindedness, the sermons promoting hate and intolerance among the Pakistanis, the literature and pamphlets being distributed widely with pseudoscience and ever changing irrational interpretation of religion. All very secular, isn't it? I think that you heard about the "secular" in the Friday sermon by the local Mullah so to know literally nothing about it.

There's a reason why F.A.T.A. has been in the stone-ages since the independence of the country and well you state it fine. Its the mindset of the people living in the area, coupled with religious overdoses and blunder of the establishment. An action was necessary to weed out the past creationary mistakes of Taliban and assorted Jihadi groups who had built a stronghold in the region and disturbed not only the law and order of the area but of the whole country at large. Musharraf made the right decision to cleanse the area and bring it back to the jurisdiction of the country. Now, don't start to blame the Govt just because those people consider the removal of criminal/terrorists elements as an attack on themselves. The infrastructure and economy running on terrorism uncovered during the latest Operation Zarb-e-Azb should open your eyes, these people (Tajiks, Uzbeks, Chechens, Arabs) didn't arrive suddenly nor were the weapon factories/torture cells/bunkers were created in one day, this has been going on for a long time in the tribal belt and there was a need to take care of it. The reason for the extensive damage is that the action came very late, decades late! The army has been rightly unleashed to take care of the problems it created itself in the past. Unless of course you think that the insanity of "illaqa-e-gher" should have continued to time immemorial. Hard, cold facts.

Prescribe me a better treatment to those who don't agree to long due reforms and necessary changes and continue the policy of what has harmed Pakistan most. Tell me, without again resorting to injecting the opiate of the masses, the logical cure for Lal-Masjid style thousand of seminaries in the country? Should they be left just because you consider routing out terrorists/extremists as an attack on the religion? And tone down the rhetoric, reserve it for when your brother-in-arms and fellow Muslims come to kill you someday having overdosed on religion. Its not my kind which is looking to silence every other person with a difference of opinion and some interpretation of Islam, sadly. That credit remains truly with hyper religious crowd. Of course the creation of new Madarsas continue undeterred in your area, the production of more children than one can afford never really showed any signs of slowing down in this country. And Christendom or any other dom needs nothing to do with you anymore, you people are yourselves more than capable to destroy. Why should anyone wage a war from outside when you will gladly declare each other infidel and shed blood in the name of God?

I never said that you shouldn't be proud to be Muslim, where exactly does that insecurity and irrational need to defend religion arise from every time? Is that some underlying repressed thought process of realization of religion being used wrongly by the masses while your conscious minds passes the blame to secular forces, foreign agents? Relax, I am not looking to force down my opinion/thought down your throat, that distinction again remains with the hyper religious crowd.
I can see birth of Zarvan2 in the poster you replied to. At any rate, the post before that was worth considering and deserved a reply.
 
Your problem is that you are painting all molvis with the same brush. Every molvi is not Abdul Aziz. We have many Sarfraz Naeemis and Hasan Jans among our molvis as well. They are the best tools to counter the terrorists, majority Pakistanis are Barelvis and they run many madrassahs as well. They are non violent and anti TTP but many people paint them with the same brush they use to paint madrassahs of Abdul Aziz. Religious degrees have their value and I will finish that with just one example that our Islamiat techer in fsc was a madrassah student alongside MA in Islamiat. One does O levels what skill it gives? means one should become a motor mechanic to get some skills? The answer is that study further. No one stops you. A large number of hafiz e Quran people are doctors, engineers and civil servents. LT. Gen Mushtaq Baig shaheed was also a hafiz and he had done hifz from a madrassah. So your claim that madrassahs produce mindless, unskilled zombies has been head shotted. Plus just take a moment to think that what will happen if your brillant plan of banning madrassahs is enforced. Think about after effects and think about majority non violent barelvis who may become violent. Keeping an eye on madrassahs is the solution, banning madrassahs is not. I am not going to get into Zia and company debate because Zia is the bogeyman to blame faliures of his successors as well. He did what the situation demanded at that time. Perhaps he was short sighted. As for my religious personalities, I do not follow any one and I pray once a week, I am a bad Muslim, I bash molvis as well regardless of their sect.

The problem is that majority of them are like that, if not directly involved then involved in devising a conducive environment for that to flourish. Of course not all of them would be like that, there is nothing absolute or perfect in this world. I am not saying that religious degrees have no value at all, their value is limited in this world you live in and hence there's no logical sense in churning out Madarsa graduate en masse who then (majorly) proceed to not opt for any worldly education at all. This isn't beneficial to the society since most of them wont pursue any higher education. And I am not asking to close Madarsas, reforms and careful watch will be more than enough. You missed the point.
 
Religious institutions should be under strict gov monitoring. These people who learn terrorism in the Madrassas, spread that all over the place. By preaching in Mosques or public places. Where they attract other soft minded religious people who never attended Madrassas. My belief is above all, nothing more true than that and who doesnt believe it deserves to die. Very dangerous teachings.
 
I can see birth of Zarvan2 in the poster you replied to. At any rate, the post before that was worth considering and deserved a reply.

Mate, these people are out in the open and for everyone to see. There are hundreds of thousands of people like that who are closet Mullahs and direct (or indirect) supporters of radicalization and extremism. Terrorists gained ground for a decade, caused such widespread terror in the country and flourished on the ever available misplaced religious support for their cause. All local of course! There is no other explanation for that, if it were a foreign problem, it would have been tackled years ago. Look at the might of the Pakistani military and resources of the state used to counter these terrorists and extremists thus far. Can a war of such extent survive without massive local support?

Exactly my point. (Or should i say Axactly?)

Government or city laws doesn't apply on them.They can easily manage to buy a house and then start a Madrissa in any of the Residential areas.There is a reason for dividing the zones into commercial and non-commercial/residential areas.
(And in the above mentioned statement you can cite the private school mafia as well.... but that's off topic)

That would make it null and void :D

It never has, its very easy to encroach upon lands by building a mosque first and an associated Madarsa afterwards.
 
Your problem is that you are painting all molvis with the same brush. Every molvi is not Abdul Aziz. We have many Sarfraz Naeemis and Hasan Jans among our molvis as well. They are the best tools to counter the terrorists, majority Pakistanis are Barelvis and they run many madrassahs as well. They are non violent and anti TTP but many people paint them with the same brush they use to paint madrassahs of Abdul Aziz. Religious degrees have their value and I will finish that with just one example that our Islamiat techer in fsc was a madrassah student alongside MA in Islamiat. One does O levels what skill it gives? means one should become a motor mechanic to get some skills? The answer is that study further. No one stops you. A large number of hafiz e Quran people are doctors, engineers and civil servents. LT. Gen Mushtaq Baig shaheed was also a hafiz and he had done hifz from a madrassah. So your claim that madrassahs produce mindless, unskilled zombies has been head shotted. Plus just take a moment to think that what will happen if your brillant plan of banning madrassahs is enforced. Think about after effects and think about majority non violent barelvis who may become violent. Keeping an eye on madrassahs is the solution, banning madrassahs is not. I am not going to get into Zia and company debate because Zia is the bogeyman to blame faliures of his successors as well. He did what the situation demanded at that time. Perhaps he was short sighted. As for my religious personalities, I do not follow any one and I pray once a week, I am a bad Muslim, I bash molvis as well regardless of their sect.
Merey bhai, today we are living in a world were 'capacity' is preferred over 'number', and not any 'capacity' but specialization. To be a good practicing Muslims how much Islam one needs to know? Besides, one does not need to go to any madrassah to learn Quran by heart, now there are far better teachers avaiable who help you achieve that more scientifically and in shorter period of time on internet and for free. Internet has revolutionized our lives and if one is committed he can learn anything on the inernet. Do you really think 300-yards, double story so-called 'Jamia tafheem ul this and that' give their disciples quality education? Then almost all of these Madrassah's are sect-specific and churn out people with extremely narrow theological approaches. Even if no violence is taught, the brains are washed and made intolerant towards other beliefs hence prone to violence.

Not all moulvis are black sheeps but those who are not are unfortunately silently supporting those who are and we have seen this several times in the meetings and press releases of 'Wafaq-al-Madaris'. Has Wafaq-al-Madaris cancelled Aziz's madrassah's registration? Is there any doubt left in the involvement of Aziz the swine and his swineherd in terrorism? What actions were/are taken against him by those who, according to you, are not like him? Bhai they are all one and united and tens of thousands of these madrassahs are part of a cartel and those fat assess representing these madrassahs in Wafaq-al-madaris are Dons and ring leaders printing currency from this business while churning out like-minded bigots who one day will take over this country like ISIS.

There must be only one education system in Pakistan, kids must be taught basic Arabic and Islamiat (non-Muslims exempted) up to the level of metric and that is it. After that if someone wants to know more about Islam, take Islamiat as major subject along with Arabic and go up to the level of PhD. There is nothing that MA Islamiat does not cover that is offered by the madrassahs except of-course sectarian narrow mindedness.
 
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It never has, its very easy to encroach upon lands by building a mosque first and an associated Madarsa afterwards.
You wonder why the idea of making a mosque has been made "Sadqah Jariah"??

This is social engineering over hundreds of years; the papal state along with its clergy did it and we should not expect any different. The only difference is that the Papal state lost out to its various sects protestants etc... had massive wars and shed lots of blood, and eventually moved beyond such petty ideals.

The same would be best for Muslims but unlike then when there were lesser opposing forces and much less effective weapons, this time the Muslims may simply end up paying a much higher price in blood than any other religion in history.
 
Why shouldn't I? Give me a single good reason instead of emotional statements and deluded notions of the world as to why should we discard the death toll larger than even the ones in all three wars with India. This is how much damage the Mullahs have caused to the country. Just how absurd can you get by starting to claim the deaths of Pakistanis are a result of joining a war? Should we have had the country bombed by the Americans or you have some unrealistic delusion of the might of PA to fight the Yanks? How exactly does the argument of Muslims killing Muslims just because Muslims are being killed elsewhere by the Infidels work? I never figured it out. The deaths of Pakistanis and acts of terrorism have happened all over the country, open your eyes and see the enemy within! Declaring it a foreign war, an outside conspiracy and passing the blame of your own mistakes and blunders wont make it right. Who has been responsible for the death of 60k Pakistanis? Minus the drone strikes (which are largely beneficial for the country and strike where the PAF cant under the covert permission of the military) and a few acts of random terrorism, its the religious ideological terrorists who have caused the worst chaos, damage and terror in the country in its entire history.

No, that is because the drug of radicalization and extremism was still going strong before the attack on twin towers. A withdrawal occurred after Musharraf rightly changed the policy of supporting extremists/terrorists in the country and elsewhere. Hence the cropping up of so many religious nut jobs in the country trying to defend the religion when there's no danger to the religion except for the one from the Muslims. Sure, pass the blame to "secular extremists" when its your own hyper religious brethren blowing themselves left, right and center or trying to neutralize the ones whom they don't consider as Muslims. Its all secularist's fault, this menace of terrorism being supported by the Madaris, the Jihadi training and radicalization/extremism being drilled into young minds, the ever present sectarianism and riots over sects, the declaration of technology/medicines/activities as forbidden, the rejection of modern world and worldly life, promotion of narrow mindedness, the sermons promoting hate and intolerance among the Pakistanis, the literature and pamphlets being distributed widely with pseudoscience and ever changing irrational interpretation of religion. All very secular, isn't it? I think that you heard about the "secular" in the Friday sermon by the local Mullah so to know literally nothing about it.

There's a reason why F.A.T.A. has been in the stone-ages since the independence of the country and well you state it fine. Its the mindset of the people living in the area, coupled with religious overdoses and blunder of the establishment. An action was necessary to weed out the past creationary mistakes of Taliban and assorted Jihadi groups who had built a stronghold in the region and disturbed not only the law and order of the area but of the whole country at large. Musharraf made the right decision to cleanse the area and bring it back to the jurisdiction of the country. Now, don't start to blame the Govt just because those people consider the removal of criminal/terrorists elements as an attack on themselves. The infrastructure and economy running on terrorism uncovered during the latest Operation Zarb-e-Azb should open your eyes, these people (Tajiks, Uzbeks, Chechens, Arabs) didn't arrive suddenly nor were the weapon factories/torture cells/bunkers were created in one day, this has been going on for a long time in the tribal belt and there was a need to take care of it. The reason for the extensive damage is that the action came very late, decades late! The army has been rightly unleashed to take care of the problems it created itself in the past. Unless of course you think that the insanity of "illaqa-e-gher" should have continued to time immemorial. Hard, cold facts.

Prescribe me a better treatment to those who don't agree to long due reforms and necessary changes and continue the policy of what has harmed Pakistan most. Tell me, without again resorting to injecting the opiate of the masses, the logical cure for Lal-Masjid style thousand of seminaries in the country? Should they be left just because you consider routing out terrorists/extremists as an attack on the religion? And tone down the rhetoric, reserve it for when your brother-in-arms and fellow Muslims come to kill you someday having overdosed on religion. Its not my kind which is looking to silence every other person with a difference of opinion and some interpretation of Islam, sadly. That credit remains truly with hyper religious crowd. Of course the creation of new Madarsas continue undeterred in your area, the production of more children than one can afford never really showed any signs of slowing down in this country. And Christendom or any other dom needs nothing to do with you anymore, you people are yourselves more than capable to destroy. Why should anyone wage a war from outside when you will gladly declare each other infidel and shed blood in the name of God?

I never said that you shouldn't be proud to be Muslim, where exactly does that insecurity and irrational need to defend religion arise from every time? Is that some underlying repressed thought process of realization of religion being used wrongly by the masses while your conscious minds passes the blame to secular forces, foreign agents? Relax, I am not looking to force down my opinion/thought down your throat, that distinction again remains with the hyper religious crowd.

‘’Why shouldn't I? Just how absurd can you get by starting to claim the deaths of Pakistanis are a result of joining a war? ‘’

Then you know nothing about the Pashtoons. Unfortunately, because of your incoherent rantings you’re not reading properly; let me repeat again, people from FATA work in AK and they’ve told me what’s going on for real. It’s revenge for the murder of their loved ones. There is an Army Operation going on. There are TTP backed by foreigner Agencies to destabilise Pakistan.

‘’Should we have had the country bombed by the Americans or you have some unrealistic delusion of the might of PA to fight the Yanks?’’

Why would your Masters want to bomb us? What did we have to do with 9/11? Are you trying to justify the possible MURDER of Pakistanis as it would have been OUR FAULT! How dare you! So, with that logic let’s wave the white flag to the Indians as they’re much larger than us? This is cowardice! I don’t care what Army comes’, we’ll fight to defend our country. What kind ludicrous, coward statement is that to make!

‘’How exactly does the argument of Muslims killing Muslims just because Muslims are being killed elsewhere by the Infidels work? I never figured it out. ‘’

Now you’re deluded. When did I say this? If you want to have a discussion you must keep adab of it and not pick and cut and take statements out of context. I’ve already discussed this point about Pashtoons and I’m not aware of anything different you’re referring too.

‘’The deaths of Pakistanis and acts of terrorism have happened all over the country, open your eyes and see the enemy within!’’

I see the enemy within; the greedy corrupt politicians.
Those who sold Pakistani citizens for $1m to Christendom forces.
What about $25m of treachery?
What about the Brigadier in London?
What about the consultant for US?
What about your hero Musharaf who wrote 3 books and could not get his story write. A liar! Read the state secrets he’s exposing! Very PATRIOTIC!
What about the other traitor; Durani comes on BBCWORLD and spills his guts out? I guess they’re both graduates of some Madrassa!

All the Pakistanis have been released without charge from Guantanamo Bay and have initiated lawsuits for torture and illegal captivity. Which Madrassa did Christendom learn torture from?

‘’Who has been responsible for the death of 60k Pakistanis? ‘’

Go and MANIPULATE someone else. 60,000 deaths directly and indirectly relating to War on Islam

Pakistani Civilians | Costs of War

This kind of despicable antics I would expect from Indians. EVERYONE read the link and see the figures for yourself and what they’re relating too and for what period.

‘’No, that is because the drug of radicalization and extremism was still going strong before the attack on twin towers.’’

Oh I see now! You want to prove to NSA you’re the good guy!

‘’A withdrawal occurred after Musharraf rightly changed the policy of supporting extremists/terrorists in the country and elsewhere.’’

So, who made the government policies? I really don’t know what you’re talking about! You’re confused like the data you pulled-up. So the GOVERNMENT was creating TERRORISM? So the Madrassa had nothing to do with it.

‘’Sure, pass the blame to "secular extremists" when its your own hyper religious brethren blowing themselves left, right and center or trying to neutralize the ones whom they don't consider as Muslims.’’

If someone on the streets goes and does something out of ignorance what has that got to do with Madarassa? You, yourself are Islamically illiterate and you’re pointing fingers everywhere to support your anti-Muslim narrative. Hence, I said I’m a Muslim and Proud of it!

‘’ Its all secularist's fault, this menace of terrorism being supported by the Madaris, the Jihadi training and radicalization/extremism being drilled into young minds, the ever present sectarianism and riots over sects, the declaration of technology/medicines/activities as forbidden, the rejection of modern ‘’

Hang on! This is the language of our enemy country; India! What Madrassa was involved in the training of terrorists? If there was, you think they can operate openly like this without the Government knowing?

Sciences in the Quran!

Miracles of the Qur'an - Modern Science Reveals New Miracles of the Qur'an :: HARUN YAHYA ::

The rest of your post is the same and repeating itself. As we ‘ve seen above, the constant mind numbing repition!

Mate, these people are out in the open and for everyone to see. There are hundreds of thousands of people like that who are closet Mullahs and direct (or indirect) supporters of radicalization and extremism. Terrorists gained ground for a decade, caused such widespread terror in the country and flourished on the ever available misplaced religious support for their cause. All local of course! There is no other explanation for that, if it were a foreign problem, it would have been tackled years ago. Look at the might of the Pakistani military and resources of the state used to counter these terrorists and extremists thus far. Can a war of such extent survive without massive local support?

More propaganda! Extremism is not from our religion. If you had studied it, you would know that

''The Prophet ﷺsaid: ‘May the extremists perish’ (three times)''

In fact it you who is a supporter of extremist ideology of using VIOLENCE! When have you ever heard a sufi use violence? You bet, when YOU threaten us with violence we'll defend ourselves. First look at yourself in the mirror before you preach!

You're a close minded person who uses Madaris as an excuse to rant his anti-Muslim venom. Are you going to provide orphans, the poor, the homeless, food, clothing, lodging and education? If not, you're opinions don't count for squat!
 
@Azad-Kashmiri Either answer the post in full or don't bother quoting out-of-context parts of it. That is a very old trickery of the Mullahs enabling them to act as experts in almost every field by selective quoting, sheer criticism and fool the gullible by their emotionally charged sentences. You need not defend the religion everytime and I am not a follower of Lucifer. So relax.

More propaganda! Extremism is not from our religion. If you had studied it, you would know that

''The Prophet ﷺsaid: ‘May the extremists perish’ (three times)''

In fact it you who is a supporter of extremist ideology of using VIOLENCE! When have you ever heard a sufi use violence? You bet, when YOU threaten us with violence we'll defend ourselves. First look at yourself in the mirror before you preach!

You're a close minded person who uses Madaris as an excuse to rant his anti-Muslim venom. Are you going to provide orphans, the poor, the homeless, food, clothing, lodging and education? If not, you're opinions don't count for squat!

Now, will you show me a single post where I say that "extremism is from the religion" :azn: I never said it! But just because it isn't from the religion won't change the fact that it is being done, under the guise of religion by the Muslims. A religion is always perceived by the actions of its followers, you aren't exempt from criticism and blame because its not in the book.

Yeah, using violence against rogue elements who aren't keen to listen to the calls of reforms. Madaris like Lal-Masjid who won't discard their ways of spreading chaos and terror in the society even with repeated warnings. You want me to send them garlands? Turn the other cheek perhaps? That is what happens when you take in consideration, random parts of a post and try to answer it. The rest will do fine with careful watch of the Govt and reforms which may include teaching a little worldly education too (just like those school-going kids learn the religion too).

And I am trying to understand the reason behind this ultra-defensive but aggressive approach, do you think deep inside that the followers of the religion might be at fault too while pretending to not believe it in this thread? :D

P.S. No, simply produce enough whom I can raise properly and effectively by myself so I don't need to send them to endure torture (now don't say that its false - its an everyday routine of education inside a seminary), narrow mindedness, radicalization, sectarianism and for every single necessity of life to the Moulvis.

Hang on! This is the language of our enemy country; India! What Madrassa was involved in the training of terrorists? If there was, you think they can operate openly like this without the Government knowing?

No appeals to the patriot inside me, my patriotism isn't blind fortunately. You are asking this question in what two thousand and fifteen anno domini that what Madarsas are involved in the training of terrorists? Directly, an awful many of them and indirectly, creating a favorable environment for the spread of radicalization and extremism in the country. Almost all!

Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa operation without the knowledge of the Govt for many years too right? And Darul-ulom-Haqqania kept training more Taliban even when the state of Pakistan started a war against them? Or that too was a foreign funded Jewish conspiracy against all pure Muslims?

And you have successfully repeated the oldest propaganda of the hyper religious that every single of their blunders, mistakes and faults are actually the secularists' fault. As if they are the ones promoting the religion-disordered sectarianism, radicalization and extremism. Ask your Mullahs to take responsibility for their actions.

If someone on the streets goes and does something out of ignorance what has that got to do with Madarassa? You, yourself are Islamically illiterate and you’re pointing fingers everywhere to support your anti-Muslim narrative. Hence, I said I’m a Muslim and Proud of it!

If only it had been "someone" and a few acts of terrorism, I would have agreed with you, such it appears isn't the case. I will gladly concede that you are a better Muslim than me if that changes anything in the equation, I know the obsession with holier than thou attitude. Because I am not making religious arguments, this isn't a theological discussion.

So, who made the government policies? I really don’t know what you’re talking about! You’re confused like the data you pulled-up. So the GOVERNMENT was creating TERRORISM? So the Madrassa had nothing to do with it.

They didn't teach you anything about the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, the creation of Mujaheddin (people who kept on fighting between themselves even after the infidels departed), the import of an intolerant version of religion and the unadulterated power that Mullahs enjoyed since the eighties to o-one? Of course you don't know what I am talking about! Start reading history then, instead of churning out posts without any purpose or meaning but random sentences since you admit to not knowing about what is being talked about. Yes, the establishment at an earlier time, promoted radicalization and extremism in the country to pave way for fighting a foreign war and gather public support for what it was doing in Afghanistan. While heavily funded Madarsas became the first line of offense polluting the young mind. Madarsas had everything to do with Mujaheddin and later Taliban, these Mullah/Qari/Mufti/Hafiz/Moulvi didn't come and don't come from schools, colleges, universities or to use the broad term, proper institutions of education.

Now you’re deluded. When did I say this? If you want to have a discussion you must keep adab of it and not pick and cut and take statements out of context. I’ve already discussed this point about Pashtoons and I’m not aware of anything different you’re referring too.

Go and MANIPULATE someone else. 60,000 deaths directly and indirectly relating to War on Islam

You didn't say it explicitly, you implied it. You say Christendom is responsible for this war and for these deaths right? Why exactly are Muslims cutting the throats of their fellow Muslims then?

Exactly, what the next propaganda is about. To explain/rationalize the deaths of Pakistanis by saying that the infidels have been killing Muslims in Afghanistan, Iraq and well basically the world over hence its the revenge being taken from (ironically of all people) Muslims by (ironically of all people) Muslims. Understand what you are saying now?

I see the enemy within; the greedy corrupt politicians.

Selective amnesia they call it right? Why forget your comrades waging a war against the Pakistanis under the name of God having killed more than what have died in all wars with India combined?

Those who sold Pakistani citizens for $1m to Christendom forces.
What about $25m of treachery?
What about the Brigadier in London?
What about the consultant for US?
What about your hero Musharaf who wrote 3 books and could not get his story write. A liar! Read the state secrets he’s exposing! Very PATRIOTIC!
What about the other traitor; Durani comes on BBCWORLD and spills his guts out? I guess they’re both graduates of some Madrassa!

All the Pakistanis have been released without charge from Guantanamo Bay and have initiated lawsuits for torture and illegal captivity. Which Madrassa did Christendom learn torture from?

Wanted terrorists involved in terrorism, don't start giving respect and the nationality of the country to Al Qaeda terrorists. I read the In the Line of Fire and never got any idea of any exposure of national secrets, you sure you have it right? And Durrani spilled national secrets, whats you definition of it because the rest of us saw it as nothing more than brutal truth of International relations? Sheikh Bin Laden, right for the rest of it? :D

Right. Yeah, you can do that in the secular world and expect a fair and speedy justice in the secular nations. Think of it, if it had been the present Muslims nation who had done this, the people wouldn't have been allowed to file one in the first place. No?
 
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The problem is that majority of them are like that, if not directly involved then involved in devising a conducive environment for that to flourish. Of course not all of them would be like that, there is nothing absolute or perfect in this world. I am not saying that religious degrees have no value at all, their value is limited in this world you live in and hence there's no logical sense in churning out Madarsa graduate en masse who then (majorly) proceed to not opt for any worldly education at all. This isn't beneficial to the society since most of them wont pursue any higher education. And I am not asking to close Madarsas, reforms and careful watch will be more than enough. You missed the point.

Having workshops and skill based training classes is not unislamic. Even making some of them cooks and basic nursing staff is also not far fetched. The problem is the donors are not interested in going that direction to have skilled labour in the country. What these black sheep madrassahs are getting money for is specialized cannon fodder that needs constant replacing.
 
Having workshops and skill based training classes is not unislamic. Even making some of them cooks and basic nursing staff is also not far fetched. The problem is the donors are not interested in going that direction to have skilled labour in the country. What these black sheep madrassahs are getting money for is specialized cannon fodder that needs constant replacing.

But that won't ensure a steady stream of foot soldiers and leaders for these extremist and terrorist organization. So why would they do it? The funding is majorly local, for the rest the GCC acts as the lender of the last resort .

Why would your Masters want to bomb us? What did we have to do with 9/11? Are you trying to justify the possible MURDER of Pakistanis as it would have been OUR FAULT! How dare you! So, with that logic let’s wave the white flag to the Indians as they’re much larger than us? This is cowardice! I don’t care what Army comes’, we’ll fight to defend our country. What kind ludicrous, coward statement is that to make!

Masters? Speaking against the menace of terrorism is indicative of a U.S. supporter by now? The Americans in order to get access to Afghanistan threatened to bomb Pakistan to stone age if the state failed to comply to its demands. The threat was real, Musharraf did what he had to do. Which again I am guessing you are unaware of, the U.S. and India are two different entities with massively different extent of power and influence. Its smart decision making against obvious suicide, don't tell me that we would have fought with the Yanks with some help from the unseen without turning the country into next Afghanistan.

Then you know nothing about the Pashtoons. Unfortunately, because of your incoherent rantings you’re not reading properly; let me repeat again, people from FATA work in AK and they’ve told me what’s going on for real. It’s revenge for the murder of their loved ones. There is an Army Operation going on. There are TTP backed by foreigner Agencies to destabilise Pakistan.

I have understood enough by this point that you are in staunch support of the terror economy and infrastructure in the tribal belt, the non following of the state laws, the opposition to walk hand in hand with the rest of the country, the criminal activities associated with illaqa-e-gher so to show opposition to a operation in the tribal belt which started in 2001. Thanks for playing.

Yeah the thousands of TTP foot soldiers (and those of the dozens of other extremists organization) and the suicide bombers have all arrived on a flight from Ben Gurion, Tel Aviv! Its all a fault of those darned foreigners! I hear you. Pakistanis are enough to destabilize Pakistan, don't look outside for the cause of your problems at home. It hasn't done anything for you ever.
 
@secure

Don't waste your breath on Zarvan part II. Aqalmand ko ishara kaafi hota hey and you have posted almost a chapter-worth of words in rebuttal but to no avail. For them Allah said : صُمُّ بُكْمٌ عُمْىُُ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ
 
@secure

Don't waste your breath on Zarvan part II. Aqalmand ko ishara kaafi hota hey and you have posted almost a chapter-worth of words in rebuttal but to no avail. For them Allah said : صُمُّ بُكْمٌ عُمْىُُ فَهُمْ لاَ يَرْجِعُونَ
Yes those master of ignorance talk about this who have no idea about this war and specially after recent safoora attacks and their lies getting exposed their butts are on fire
 

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