THE "MOON"...Ah, the moon!!!

[BringHarmony]

Errr Basically you are oblivious to the Indian psyche, as said elsewhere, admiring someone's rosy cheeks is human nature but the Indians will even smack themselves to have a red face.
I'm sure you have heard the saying, if you can't beat them then join them, the Indians however have their feel good version, if you can't beat them, then abuse them.....the Indians fancy themselves to be in race with China yet all their comparisons boil down viz-viz Pakistan.
Their desperation to reach moon is to be in parallel with China yet all the mud slinging is against Pakistan's space agency,perhaps you should read outside of PDF as well.

So let me understand, your issue is with "Indian Psyche" or the fact that Indians are trying to compare with China?
Or, may be Indians pointing and trolling Pakistan's space program (or lack thereof)?

I thought we were talking and this thread is about India (and by extension, rest of the world too) wasting money on space and specially moon landing / mars exploration.

These are two very different issues.

For first issue, you can simply point them to many economies and countries which are doing great on per-capita wise but choose not to have a space program because of their requirements or budget or research focus being elsewhere. Basically their diversification of research portfolio skips space and focuses on a number of other area. No one says everyone should do space research and engineering... Some have to do it, thats all.

Or You can point them to the research and engineering being done by Pakistan which India lacks. I heard in this forum that inspite of having Indus as the only major water body in an arid geography, Pakistan's agriculture flourishes because of one of the world's most extensive irrigation system you folks have developed. Thats an achievement and should shut all the indians up.

 

[GumNaam]

ISRO looks to expand space-based agricultural forecast to cover over 23 crops from the existing eight in the country..

is this guy serious? can't fix "earth-based" agricultural problems, so they'll expand it space...why am I even dignifying such stupidity with comments...

 

[BringHarmony]

looks like someone in the administrations has been thinking along my lines...

You do realize that its over 13 years, right? That will be 20-22 billion dollars per year in today's money.

For that matter, here is one more expenditure US government does : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid

And BTW, that exceeds spending on space program.

 

[GumNaam]

Once again you don't understand. That 1-2 billion is ADDITIONAL. If whatever they are spending already is not working then adding this 1-2 billion additional will help? And why it needs to come specifically from space program? Why not they add a little bit more tax? Their tax rates are actually lower than Canada. Add a bit more tax on say cigarettes and fund it, IF that additional 1-2 billion dollars are going to have impact.

If they need more money for agri-research they can even get soft loans from IMF, if they cann't fund it from elsewhere.

BTW, space program ALSO helps in agriculture by crop monitoring and early prediction of weather.

stating the obvious again...why burden the poor people already living below the poverty line with more taxes when funds can be taken from the space program that is resulting in one failure after another ANYWAY...far FAR more chances of success in diverting those funds elsewhere. and once AGAIN, I am stating the obvious...that 1-2 billion ADDITIONAL that is resulting wastage due to failed space programs is better spent on programs here on earth where there is a greater chance of them producing successful result...your logic of "if whatever they are spending already is not working then adding this 1-2 billion additional will help" is like loosing the battle before it even begins...once again, stating the OBVIOUS! at LEAST give it a shot, the results are gonna be FAR more worth it than going to a desolate moon!

You do realize that its over 13 years, right? That will be 20-22 billion dollars per year in today's money.

For that matter, here is one more expenditure US government does : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid

And BTW, that exceeds spending on space program.

you do realize that in spite of america's vast economy, it is comparatively tiny. they don't have the massive problems india or other countries do and yet, still choose to NOT spend an immense amount while india has far more pressing problems to deal with...

and let's not talk about foreign aid from the u.s. we all know how it is a tool of political control than an economic one.

 

[BringHarmony]

why burden the poor people already living below the poverty line with more taxes when funds can be taken from the space program that is resulting in one failure after another ANYWAY

Well taxing cigarette won't burden poor people. It will actually force some folks to quit or reduce smoking.

You can even put more duty on luxury items imported from outside. For instance, luxury cars from germany. I heard that India has quite a bit of market for that.

In an economy of 2.8 trillion dollars and growing, generating 1-2 billion additional dollars in tax is not that hard.

This is assuming that 1-2 billions ARE THE MISSING LINK to all farmer problems and suicides.

 

[GumNaam]

Well taxing cigarette won't burden poor people. It will actually force some folks to quit or reduce smoking.

You can even put more duty on luxury items imported from outside. For instance, luxury cars from germany. I heard that India has quite a bit of market for that.

In an economy of 2.8 trillion dollars and growing, generating 1-2 billion additional dollars in tax is not that hard.

This is assuming that 1-2 billions ARE THE MISSING LINK to all farmer problems and suicides.

and growing?

 

[BringHarmony]

you do realize that in spite of america's vast economy, it is comparatively tiny. they don't have the massive problems india or other countries do and yet, still choose to NOT spend an immense amount while india has far more pressing problems to deal with...

Compared to US, India is spending minuscule money on space program. If it is giving them back in terms of remote sensing, weather prediction, communication in remote area then I will say it has returned enough.
From what I gather, they are even making money out of their space program. They are pretty famous among silicon valley types for launching micro/mini sats.

Heck, even Elon Musk once complaint to US govt about ISRO tying to or undercutting his US based business with cheap launches.

and growing?

Yes. Growing. Some 5-8% per year, right?

 

[GumNaam]

Compared to US, India is spending minuscule money on space program. If it is giving them back in terms of remote sensing, weather prediction, communication in remote area then I will say it has returned enough.
From what I gather, they are even making money out of their space program. They are pretty famous among silicon valley types for launching micro/mini sats.

Heck, even Elon Musk once complaint to US govt about ISRO tying to or undercutting his US based business with cheap launches.


Yes. Growing. Some 5-8% per year, right?

once AGAIN...earth orbiting satellites are NOT being debated here, I never disputed the immediate advantages satellites bring, I don't know why do you keep bringing that up? I am STRICTLY talking about deep space exploration, as I have said many MANY times before, moon and beyond! you are CONSISTENTLY failing to make a case for deep space exploration on behalf of india or for anyone else given the pressing problems that the world is facing.

STICK TO DEEP SPACE EXPLORATION POR FAVOR!

Yes. Growing. Some 5-8% per year, right?

I highly suggest that you go back and revisit those 5 to 8% numbers. I realize that you have loyalties attached to your home country, but let's not get carried away with it to the extent where you don't realize what the prevailing economic situation is right now. people can't even afford a rs 5 parle's biscuit packets for God's sakes!!!

 

[BringHarmony]

once AGAIN...earth orbiting satellites are NOT being debated here, I never disputed the immediate advantages satellites bring, I don't know why do you keep bringing that up? I am STRICTLY talking about deep space exploration, as I have said many MANY times before, moon and beyond! you are CONSISTENTLY failing to make a case for deep space exploration on behalf of india or for anyone else given the pressing problems that the world is facing.

STICK TO DEEP SPACE EXPLORATION POR FAVOR!

Fair enough, while talking of deep space exploration, talk ONLY about expenses on deep space exploration.
For India that would be in 100-200 million dollars and for US, that would be merely 500-1 billion dollar per year on average.

I guess if that is the money in question, the discussion is worthless.
100-200 million dollars per year is not even worth discussion. When economy is 2-3 trillion dollars.

And in case of USA, 500-1 billion dollar per year average is laughable to talk about.

 

[GumNaam]

Fair enough, then talking of deep space exploration, talk ONLY about expenses on deep space exploration.
For India that would be in 100-200 million dollars and for US, that would be merely 500-1 billion dollar per year on average.

I guess if that is the money in question, the discussion is worthless.

no dude, chandayan 2 alone cost over $140 million...that is just ONE moon project. not the entire space exploration program and they have other disasters in the making...please don't misrepresent numbers.

 

[BringHarmony]

All right so here are the number for India :

Their moon mission 1 costed about 60 million dollars. Lets say it is 100 million dollar.
Their mars mission was 75 million dollars. Lets say it is 100 million dollar.
And their moon mission 2 was 190 million dollars or so. Let sat it is 200 million dollars.

Total 400 million. Make it 500 million.

This I guess is over 5-10 years?

So maximum per year on an average is 100 million.

You want to now discuss THIS expense?

@Nilgiri Can you check my numbers? I think I didn't underestimate India's deep space research expenses per year.

no dude, chandayan 2 alone cost over $140 million...that is just ONE moon project. not the entire space exploration program and they have other disasters in the making...please don't misrepresent numbers.

Look at my calculations above.

 

[GumNaam]

All right so here are the number for India :

Their moon mission 1 costed about 60 million dollars. Lets say it is 100 million dollar.
Their mars mission was 75 million dollars. Lets say it is 100 million dollar.
And their moon mission 2 was 190 million dollars or so. Let sat it is 200 million dollars.

Total 400 million. Make it 500 million.

This I guess is over 5-10 years?

So maximum per year on an average is 100 million.

You want to now discuss THIS expense?

@Nilgiri Can you check my numbers? I think I didn't underestimate India's deep space research expenses per year.


Look at my calculations above.

Ok so... let's go with the $500 million wasted...tell me how did those $500 million wasted help the common indian man on the streets struggling to make ends meet? No, phuleez don't bring the nonexistent gdp growth brouhaha...that has gone down the drain along with the $500 million.

 

[BringHarmony]

Ok so... let's go with the $500 million wasted...tell me how did those $500 million wasted help the common indian man on the streets struggling to make ends meet? No, phuleez don't bring the nonexistent gdp growth brouhaha...that has gone down the drain along with the $500 million.

500 million over 5 years. That is 100 million per year!

I am fairly sure I am actually over estimating per year. But, in a revenue of 500 BILLION dollars, 100 million spent on deep-space research is the reason that Indians are having socio-economic issues? That Laughable!

In return of this expense, India got capability to navigate till moon and mars. I will say it is worth it. Not all money in govt expense goes to poor people's welfare.

BTW, you are also discounting the salaries this money must have paid to the scientist, technicians, labourers employed to build these equipments and carry out these missions.

And heck! Does government do all the expense for "social welfare"? I highly doubt it. Heck, more likely they spent more money per year on their public celebrations or their religious activities supported by government funds. I heard a lot of their religious activities are subsidized or given tax breaks.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-17582194

If those 100 million dollars are hurting so much, Indian government should start taxing temples and other religious places like above. They receive MASSIVE donations.

The Hindu shrine has an annual income of $340m - most of it from donations.

You want to know the wasted money, the above is your wasted money. And this is just one shrine. Tax it at 30% and you have those 100 million dollars for space research or public spending. Most of this money goes in MASSIVE celebrations or gold. Last I visited a shrine near delhi, I was amazed! It was some kind of temple but ALL MADE IN GOLD! Some folks must have donated massive amount of money to build and maintain it.

Lastly, the official figures do suggest Indian economy is growing.

 

[GumNaam]

500 million over 5 years. That is 100 million per year!

I am fairly sure I am actually over estimating per year. But, in a revenue of 500 BILLION dollars, 100 million spent on deep-space research is the reason that Indians are having socio-economic issues? That Laughable!

In return of this expense, India got capability to navigate till moon and mars. I will say it is worth it. Not all money in govt expense goes to poor people's welfare.

BTW, you are also discounting the salaries this money must have paid to the scientist, technicians, labourers employed to build these equipments and carry out these missions.

And heck! Does government do all the expense for "social welfare"? I highly doubt it. Heck, more likely they spent more money per year on their public celebrations or their religious activities supported by government funds. I heard a lot of their religious activities are subsidized or given tax breaks.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-17582194

If those 100 million dollars are hurting so much, Indian government should start taxing temples and other religious places like above. They receive MASSIVE donations.

You want to know the wasted money, the above is your wasted money. And this is just one shrine. Tax it at 30% and you have those 100 million dollars for space research or public spending. Most of this money goes in MASSIVE celebrations or gold. Last I visited a shrine near delhi, I was amazed! It was some kind of temple but ALL MADE IN GOLD! Some folks must have donated massive amount of money to build and maintain it.

Lastly, the official figures do suggest Indian economy is growing.

I don't care about how much is it per year...I asked you a simple question; how many common indians who are struggling day in and day out to make ends meet did that $500 million help improve the lives of? That's what I asked you, is it that hard to understand?

 

[BringHarmony]

I don't care about how much is it per year...I asked you a simple question; how many common indians who are struggling day in and day out to make ends meet did that $500 million help improve the lives of? That's what I asked you, is it that hard to understand?

Because, even if those $100 million are spent per year on common citizen, nothing will change. AT ALL!

Once more, what you are missing is simple point : You are trying to fix a problem by fixing what is NOT broken and ignoring what is REALLY broken!

If you want to fix the problem, find ways to divert those 10s or mabe 100s of billions spent on useless religious celebration and gold offerings in all kinds of religious establishments. I mean, how come you can call India poor if it is throwing so much money on religious organizations and shrines? One single shrine got 350 million dollars in donation! Thats insane money! Tap that kind of money and you will perhaps serve poors better than shutting down deep space program which actually has REAL VALUE, although further in future.