The Libtard onslaught The Gulf Arab Cultural onslaught and Indian Cultural onslaught on Pakistan

[Desert Fox]

I was merely giving examples about erasing or revising history. ISIS in Syria. The Hindu rabidity destroying the Babri Masjid. Etc. Etc.

Okay, I see what you're saying. I thought you were placing the Bamyan Buddha incident in the same category as Communist erasure of history, which judging from the historical circumstances and the motives of the two different interested parties, isnt the same.

But certainly ISIS destruction of pre-Islamic artifacts is very much similar to Bolshevik/Communist erasure of history and the destruction of Babri Masjid by those who posed as so called "Hindu" radicals.

 

[VCheng]

Okay, I see what you're saying. I thought you were placing the Bamyan Buddha incident in the same category as Communist erasure of history, which judging from the historical circumstances and the motives of the two different interested parties, isnt the same.

But certainly ISIS destruction of pre-Islamic artifacts is very much similar to Bolshevik/Communist erasure of history and the destruction of Babri Masjid by those who posed as so called "Hindu" radicals.

Removal of Lenin's statues, and even in the Southern USA, a la Orwell's 1984. Etc. Etc.

 

[Desert Fox]

Removal of Lenin's statues, and even in the Southern USA, a la Orwell's 1984. Etc. Etc.

Orwell was well versed with Communism and other leftist movements of his time. I believe he did take part in the Spanish civil war on the side of the Republicans. So he definitely wrote from experience.

And speaking of Lenin's statue, there is one in either California or Washington state on the American west coast. Can't remember which city though.

 

[nahtanbob]

As far as the Bamian Buddhas, I think the Taliban did that in retaliation to UN only allowing people to go to Afghanistan for the maintainance of the statues whilst enforcing American led sanctions due to which Afghans were suffering from food shortage and malnutrition. In other words UN was more concerned for the preservation of statues than the preservation of human lives.

Taliban came into power in Afghanistan in 1996 and did not touch the Bamiyan Buddha statues until 2001 due to the above mentioned policy of UN.

Personally, I disagree with what they did to the statues. It was retarded and very bad PR for their side. At the most they should have just turned back the archeologists who were working on those sites.

nice attempt at revisionism

6 March 2001, The Times quoted Mullah Mohammed Omar as stating, "Muslims should be proud of smashing idols. It has given praise to Allah that we have destroyed them."[44] During a 13 March interview for Japan's Mainichi Shimbun, Afghan Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmad Mutawakel stated that the destruction was anything but a retaliation against the international community for economic sanctions: "We are destroying the statues in accordance with Islamic law and it is purely a religious issue."

On 18 March 2001, The New York Times reported that a Taliban envoy said the Islamic government made its decision in a rage after a foreign delegation offered money to preserve the ancient works. The report also added, however, that other reports "have said the religious leaders were debating the move for months, and ultimately decided that the statues were idolatrous and should be obliterated".[45]

 

[Desert Fox]

nice attempt at revisionism

6 March 2001, The Times quoted Mullah Mohammed Omar as stating, "Muslims should be proud of smashing idols. It has given praise to Allah that we have destroyed them."[44] During a 13 March interview for Japan's Mainichi Shimbun, Afghan Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmad Mutawakel stated that the destruction was anything but a retaliation against the international community for economic sanctions: "We are destroying the statues in accordance with Islamic law and it is purely a religious issue."

On 18 March 2001, The New York Times reported that a Taliban envoy said the Islamic government made its decision in a rage after a foreign delegation offered money to preserve the ancient works. The report also added, however, that other reports "have said the religious leaders were debating the move for months, and ultimately decided that the statues were idolatrous and should be obliterated".[45]

All of history is a revisionism there is no such thing as an officially objective historical narrative.

And as regard what your sources state, yes it is a pure coincidence that the Taliban did not demolish the statues from 1996-2000. Only when Americans placed them under sanctions and foreign delegations were more concerned about preserving statues than preserving human lives did the Taliban magically notice the statues and decided to destroy them purely because of religious reasons and not because the UN disregarded human lives. Prior to 2001 Taliban were "bad" Muslims

 

[KhalaiMakhlooq]

nice attempt at revisionism

6 March 2001, The Times quoted Mullah Mohammed Omar as stating, "Muslims should be proud of smashing idols. It has given praise to Allah that we have destroyed them."[44] During a 13 March interview for Japan's Mainichi Shimbun, Afghan Foreign Minister Wakil Ahmad Mutawakel stated that the destruction was anything but a retaliation against the international community for economic sanctions: "We are destroying the statues in accordance with Islamic law and it is purely a religious issue."

On 18 March 2001, The New York Times reported that a Taliban envoy said the Islamic government made its decision in a rage after a foreign delegation offered money to preserve the ancient works. The report also added, however, that other reports "have said the religious leaders were debating the move for months, and ultimately decided that the statues were idolatrous and should be obliterated".[45]

no no no, the american has sanction afghan for years and their children were straving, dying. But the Un found it more important to send million of dollars to preserve histroical sights, an insult to the living!

They shouldnt have done that blow up thing and they did, thats bad. But the reason was sanctions.

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

Well honestly speaking i think our problem is that we don't possess a coherent identity that we are comfortable with and can call our own. This is why we have these three groups that you mentioned, although each of these groups are a minority, they are vocal because the majority is just confused and willing to follow anyone who shouts the loudest (usually from these three mentioned groups).

Our identity issues are deep seated, and thus we are seeking an identity to fill in the void, and usually this is being done by looking at which direction the current wind is flowing and then taking that as a cue to what we should be doing. Perhaps this is a legacy of our colonial past, who knows, there's more than one reason for this.

People here have brought up Arabs and that we Pakistanis try to be Arabs. I would disagree with this statement because I have met so many Arabs in my life from what many would call "religious" or "conservative" countries, for example Yemen and Saudi Arabia. Every Yemeni and Saudi I have met is perfectly comfortable with their pre-Islamic as well as Islamic past and have reconciled the two. There is no conflict there because what contradicted Islam was abandoned but everything else was retained and adapted to Islam.

Certainly, it is much easier for an Arab to reconcile his pre-Islamic past with his current identity as a Arab Muslim because Islam's origins are within the Arab people and all of the major Prophets (AS) were Semetic. Islam was already intertwined within Arab culture from the outset. The Quran to this day is recited in the same Arabic as it was presented in to our beloved Prophet (SAW) by the angel Gabriel (AS).

But despite this, I have witnessed non-Gulf Arabs (who are in reality Arabized people, like in the Levant and North African regions) who have also reconciled their pre-Isamic pasts with their Isamic identity. Egyptians, even the religious ones I have met, are not necessarily ashamed of the Pharoahs although it goes without saying that Pharoah is depicted as a arrogant ruler within Islamic scriptures (and Christian as well as Jewish scripture). They simply accept it as their past and some are even proud that a great civilization as that of the Pharaoh's existed in their homeland and gives them an identity that most countries today cannot boast about similar historical pasts.

Similarly with Iran, despite its image as a "Islamist" "extremist" theocratic state that (mostly) western media like to portray, some pre-Islamic traditions are still maintained, with strong Shia overtones. Essentially a new cohesive and uniquely Iranian identity has formed. Ancient Persia is considered as the origin of the modern Iranian nation, and Islam, rather than something that must replace the Iranian historical identity, has only supplemented that previous identity.

Us Pakistanis on the other hand, we have made it very awkward for ourselves by totally rejecting our pre-Islamic past to the point where we must now literally copy-paste other peoples identities to film in the void. But a national identity isn't something that you can just copy-paste because at most you will only be able to do that with the superficial aspects, like clothing and some words and phrases here and there, as those Pakistanis who imitate Arabs do, eventhough what they are imitating from the Arabs are just some pre-Islamic Arab traditions that the Arabs retained.

In the same line we have Pakistani Liberals who wish to imitate the west, but unlike the Arab-wannabe Pakistanis, the former group wishes to imitate an empty Western "culture", which cannot even be labeled a culture in the original sense of that word because it is extremely generic (due to its secular nature), consumer based and globalized. However both Pakistani Liberals and Pakistani Arab-wannabe's have a fundamental thing in common; they adamantly believe that by copying the superficial aspects of another people one will become just like them. This is an extremely delusional thought process. By this definition a Korean cosplaying as a Bedouin has become an Arab as long as he wears their clothes and learns a few phrases of Arabic. Forget the fact that Arabs are a unique people with a strong identity rooted in a particular history of a particular ethnic group from a particular geographic location.

The material expressions of a people's cultural traditions are symbols of the spiritual aspects of their particular history, and Arab history is not simply just Islamic/religion related. By copying the material expressions of another people one does not become that people.

No other Muslim people reduce their history/identity to religion alone, except us Pakistanis; not the Arabs, not the Iranians, not the Bangalis, not the Indonesians, not the Malays, not the Turks, etc.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this because Allah (swta) Himself created us in this manner. As He states in the Quran:

"Oh mankind, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware."- 49:13

"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are signs for men of knowledge."- 30:22

Language falls under cultural traditions, and colour falls under biological diversity, and Islam recognizes both as signs of The Creator, as He Himself states so in the Quran.

Unfortunately there are those even among Muslims who are following the current globalist trend and who say that we must overcome these unique identities, if not, outright destroy them, because they are "haram", eventhough this never occurred to anyone within Islam's more-than-1400 years history. Only now with the push for global consumerism where all organic traditional identities are under assault in order to replace them with man-made consumer identity, do we see this phenomenon of Muslims declaring organic identities as "divisive", "racist" etc. What Allah has created must be "overcome", and we must all become "one and the same".

For us Pakistanis I believe we can reconcile aspects of our pre-Islamic past with Islam as both are necessary to form a coherent National identity, and as the example of other Muslim peoples has proven (Gulf Arabs and Iranians in particular as these are not secular people by their nature).

@Nilgiri @Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @Indus Pakistan @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Phenomenal post. Could not agree more.

 

[Nilgiri]

Well honestly speaking i think our problem is that we don't possess a coherent identity that we are comfortable with and can call our own. This is why we have these three groups that you mentioned, although each of these groups are a minority, they are vocal because the majority is just confused and willing to follow anyone who shouts the loudest (usually from these three mentioned groups).

Our identity issues are deep seated, and thus we are seeking an identity to fill in the void, and usually this is being done by looking at which direction the current wind is flowing and then taking that as a cue to what we should be doing. Perhaps this is a legacy of our colonial past, who knows, there's more than one reason for this.

People here have brought up Arabs and that we Pakistanis try to be Arabs. I would disagree with this statement because I have met so many Arabs in my life from what many would call "religious" or "conservative" countries, for example Yemen and Saudi Arabia. Every Yemeni and Saudi I have met is perfectly comfortable with their pre-Islamic as well as Islamic past and have reconciled the two. There is no conflict there because what contradicted Islam was abandoned but everything else was retained and adapted to Islam.

Certainly, it is much easier for an Arab to reconcile his pre-Islamic past with his current identity as a Arab Muslim because Islam's origins are within the Arab people and all of the major Prophets (AS) were Semetic. Islam was already intertwined within Arab culture from the outset. The Quran to this day is recited in the same Arabic as it was presented in to our beloved Prophet (SAW) by the angel Gabriel (AS).

But despite this, I have witnessed non-Gulf Arabs (who are in reality Arabized people, like in the Levant and North African regions) who have also reconciled their pre-Isamic pasts with their Isamic identity. Egyptians, even the religious ones I have met, are not necessarily ashamed of the Pharoahs although it goes without saying that Pharoah is depicted as a arrogant ruler within Islamic scriptures (and Christian as well as Jewish scripture). They simply accept it as their past and some are even proud that a great civilization as that of the Pharaoh's existed in their homeland and gives them an identity that most countries today cannot boast about similar historical pasts.

Similarly with Iran, despite its image as a "Islamist" "extremist" theocratic state that (mostly) western media like to portray, some pre-Islamic traditions are still maintained, with strong Shia overtones. Essentially a new cohesive and uniquely Iranian identity has formed. Ancient Persia is considered as the origin of the modern Iranian nation, and Islam, rather than something that must replace the Iranian historical identity, has only supplemented that previous identity.

Us Pakistanis on the other hand, we have made it very awkward for ourselves by totally rejecting our pre-Islamic past to the point where we must now literally copy-paste other peoples identities to film in the void. But a national identity isn't something that you can just copy-paste because at most you will only be able to do that with the superficial aspects, like clothing and some words and phrases here and there, as those Pakistanis who imitate Arabs do, eventhough what they are imitating from the Arabs are just some pre-Islamic Arab traditions that the Arabs retained.

In the same line we have Pakistani Liberals who wish to imitate the west, but unlike the Arab-wannabe Pakistanis, the former group wishes to imitate an empty Western "culture", which cannot even be labeled a culture in the original sense of that word because it is extremely generic (due to its secular nature), consumer based and globalized. However both Pakistani Liberals and Pakistani Arab-wannabe's have a fundamental thing in common; they adamantly believe that by copying the superficial aspects of another people one will become just like them. This is an extremely delusional thought process. By this definition a Korean cosplaying as a Bedouin has become an Arab as long as he wears their clothes and learns a few phrases of Arabic. Forget the fact that Arabs are a unique people with a strong identity rooted in a particular history of a particular ethnic group from a particular geographic location.

The material expressions of a people's cultural traditions are symbols of the spiritual aspects of their particular history, and Arab history is not simply just Islamic/religion related. By copying the material expressions of another people one does not become that people.

No other Muslim people reduce their history/identity to religion alone, except us Pakistanis; not the Arabs, not the Iranians, not the Bangalis, not the Indonesians, not the Malays, not the Turks, etc.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this because Allah (swta) Himself created us in this manner. As He states in the Quran:

"Oh mankind, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware."- 49:13

"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are signs for men of knowledge."- 30:22

Language falls under cultural traditions, and colour falls under biological diversity, and Islam recognizes both as signs of The Creator, as He Himself states so in the Quran.

Unfortunately there are those even among Muslims who are following the current globalist trend and who say that we must overcome these unique identities, if not, outright destroy them, because they are "haram", eventhough this never occurred to anyone within Islam's more-than-1400 years history. Only now with the push for global consumerism where all organic traditional identities are under assault in order to replace them with man-made consumer identity, do we see this phenomenon of Muslims declaring organic identities as "divisive", "racist" etc. What Allah has created must be "overcome", and we must all become "one and the same".

For us Pakistanis I believe we can reconcile aspects of our pre-Islamic past with Islam as both are necessary to form a coherent National identity, and as the example of other Muslim peoples has proven (Gulf Arabs and Iranians in particular as these are not secular people by their nature).

@Nilgiri @Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @Indus Pakistan @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

Great post my friend.

 

[nahtanbob]

no no no, the american has sanction afghan for years and their children were straving, dying. But the Un found it more important to send million of dollars to preserve histroical sights, an insult to the living!

They shouldnt have done that blow up thing and they did, thats bad. But the reason was sanctions.

What sanctions ?? Taliban get anything and everything from pakistan

All of history is a revisionism there is no such thing as an officially objective historical narrative.

And as regard what your sources state, yes it is a pure coincidence that the Taliban did not demolish the statues from 1996-2000. Only when Americans placed them under sanctions and foreign delegations were more concerned about preserving statues than preserving human lives did the Taliban magically notice the statues and decided to destroy them purely because of religious reasons and not because the UN disregarded human lives. Prior to 2001 Taliban were "bad" Muslims

Taliban did not control the full country in 1996

what sanctions ??

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

What sanctions ?? Taliban get anything and everything from pakistan



Taliban did not control the full country in 1996

what sanctions ??

If you do not understand Taliban’s way of thinking and logic, please don’t comment further.

You are wrong about everything you posted on the subject.

Statues were destroyed on the orders of one commander who was irked by the millions spent on statues and not anything given to the poor of Bamiyan.

He decided to show them that human beings are more valuable than statues.

Mullah Abdus Salam Zaeef (Ambassador to Pakistan) detailed it many times to the media.

 

[Desert Fox]

Taliban did not control the full country in 1996

The area of Bamyan was well under their control since 1996.

what sanctions ??

The ones that prevented grain and rice shipments as well as other food stuffs from entering Afghanistan due to sanctions prohibiting transportation related trade from taking place with Afghanistan.

 

[nahtanbob]

If you do not understand Taliban’s way of thinking and logic, please don’t comment further.

You are wrong about everything you posted on the subject.

Statues were destroyed on the orders of one commander who was irked by the millions spent on statues and not anything given to the poor of Bamiyan.

He decided to show them that human beings are more valuable than statues.

Mullah Abdus Salam Zaeef (Ambassador to Pakistan) detailed it many times to the media.

the buck stops with the Taliban leadership and their international backers

Taliban’s way of thinking and logic is one of pre-humans. I do not want to understand it

"human beings are more valuable than statues."
Taliban had a great value on human value. that was a nice joke

The area of Bamyan was well under their control since 1996.


The ones that prevented grain and rice shipments as well as other food stuffs from entering Afghanistan due to sanctions prohibiting transportation related trade from taking place with Afghanistan.

You think Pakistan really honored those sanctions

 

[Pan-Islamic-Pakistan]

the buck stops with the Taliban leadership and their international backers

Taliban’s way of thinking and logic is one of pre-humans. I do not want to understand it

"human beings are more valuable than statues."
Taliban had a great value on human value. that was a nice joke

How does that figure into India’s geopolitical goals now that they are back in control?

Atleast be a happy loser than a sore one.

I’m getting back on topic now, since I don’t really care about your views and the main topic is much more important.

 

[Valar.]

Are you sure you (we) borrowed religion from the Arabs? Even the Arabs of today don't practice the religion of their ancestors ....... it's all Persian-ised Islam and not the Islam.

Arabs get blamed, it's pass time for the most Pakistanis here on PDF ........ but is there ever an iota of evidence presented against them? Call it wahabi and lets start bashing them ...... The recent news is them investing billions ... in this lazy rear corrupt nation and its projects.

Buddy, I am not bashing Arabs or Indians/westerners. I am just criticizing my own country.
You see, we are not part of Middle East/India/West then why do we feel the need to bring their ideologies to Pakistan?
Coterminous Pakistanis are already Muslims for centuries but why did we feel the need to bring Wahabisation to Pakistan(or Khomineisation for that matter)?
Then there is Bollywood BS tamasha and disgusting Indian culture which is being promoted here all day under the guise Aman ka Tamasha.

You see when you are given these 2 options any normal progressive guy is gonna opt for 3rd option(liberalism) until and unless a solution/system is found from within the country.

Unfortunately that is precisely what doesn't happen. For every @Indus Pakistan who embraces the culture that he sees around him as part of his legacy, there are 999 others who reject everything prior to bin Qasim. This is one of the few, perhaps even the only country, where the citizens reject their own past heritage, and cling on to the symbols and memes of others.

My comment was about current affairs and I had nothing in mind about anything 1000s of years ago.

As for your comment about MBQ, I don't reject/approve anything prior or later to MBQ. There are many things about both eras which I like and many many which I hate.

 

[I.R.A]

Buddy, I am not bashing Arabs or Indians/westerners. I am just criticizing my own country.
You see, we are not part of Middle East/India/West then why do we feel the need to bring their ideologies to Pakistan?
Coterminous Pakistanis are already Muslims for centuries but why did we feel the need to bring Wahabisation to Pakistan(or Khomineisation for that matter)?
Then there is Bollywood BS tamasha and disgusting Indian culture which is being promoted here all day under the guise Aman ka Tamasha.

You see when you are given these 2 options any normal progressive guy is gonna opt for 3rd option(liberalism) until and unless a solution/system is found from within the country.

I haven't blamed you for Arab bashing. But I do need your answer on "We borrowed religion from them", in what context this statement stands and what does it mean? Practicing a common religion is not borrowing their ideologies.

And for Arab bashing, I demand evidence and facts of their misdoings in Pakistan. We as you highlighted (why its not highlit?) cannot blame anyone for our own weaknesses. I am against Arab bashing when it happens because you are rooting for Iranians (I don't hold very positive views on that state).

Pakistanis should own their identity and history, what is stopping them? Inferiority complex? Or the feeling that we are inferior?