The Libtard onslaught The Gulf Arab Cultural onslaught and Indian Cultural onslaught on Pakistan

[313ghazi]

Any society where the majority of people are illiterate will face the same. Most people don't know their arse from their elbow, their told what to do by others - and will act like sheep.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Unfortunately that is precisely what doesn't happen. For every @Indus Pakistan who embraces the culture that he sees around him as part of his legacy, there are 999 others who reject everything prior to bin Qasim. This is one of the few, perhaps even the only country, where the citizens reject their own past heritage, and cling on to the symbols and memes of others.

Unfortunately, what you say is true. I am a minority of a minority. I am on a 'months' break from PDF but out of respect to you I will give a full response to this matter [later] which whilst being very theoretical, goes to the very DNA code of the Pakistani identity and of profound import. Lot of the problems you see in Pakistan are directly as a consequence of this malaise.

I guess my understanding of this began as result of the tumult of being brought up in a society [UK] that was alien to my ancestry. That began a search on road that led to my thinking today. In doing so I discovered who I was and who I was not. As by nature not person who follows herd I did more searching then most and I believe I have very good understanding of this subject. The argumant that I can't understand Pakistan because I was brought up abroad holds no water. Sometimes to see the big picture you have to zoom out. The size, magic of the earth only becomes visible if you look at it from space. Sat in a village somewhere merely makes you expert on parochialism.

It's to be noted some of the South Asia's greatest thinkers, movers and shakers like Jinnah, Iqbal, Gandhi, Nehru spent siginificant time abroad where they refined and developed their thinking. Your not going to get very far if your only exposure was in hujra smoking hookah in some village. D note that 'hujra' is a state of mind our people will even hold on to it and in some cases become even more extremist and ignorant when living in places like Sweden ~ which are paragons of western liberalism.

 

[cocomo]

It's interesting both reject tradition and call spirituality superstition.

 

[Desert Fox]

There has been blah blah about how Indian content is hurting our people and culture I agree it is but CJP is not focusing on the major threat that has been ignored I know they were will be apologists for these types but I am talking about these madari types that have been roaming free in Pakistan since the 1970s thanks to these petro sheikhs and our spineless anti-nationalistic Governments they spread Wahhabism to our lands causing our people to become idiots who get blinded by politicians who use religion to get in power, then there is the Libtard type who is pushing our youth from deen I think they are both sides of the same coin anti Nationalistic and Anti-Pakistan forces to destroy Pakistan. @MastanKhan @Foxtrot Delta @Nilgiri @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan @Indus Pakistan @SecularNationalist @Desert Fox @Dewaneh

Well honestly speaking i think our problem is that we don't possess a coherent identity that we are comfortable with and can call our own. This is why we have these three groups that you mentioned, although each of these groups are a minority, they are vocal because the majority is just confused and willing to follow anyone who shouts the loudest (usually from these three mentioned groups).

Our identity issues are deep seated, and thus we are seeking an identity to fill in the void, and usually this is being done by looking at which direction the current wind is flowing and then taking that as a cue to what we should be doing. Perhaps this is a legacy of our colonial past, who knows, there's more than one reason for this.

People here have brought up Arabs and that we Pakistanis try to be Arabs. I would disagree with this statement because I have met so many Arabs in my life from what many would call "religious" or "conservative" countries, for example Yemen and Saudi Arabia. Every Yemeni and Saudi I have met is perfectly comfortable with their pre-Islamic as well as Islamic past and have reconciled the two. There is no conflict there because what contradicted Islam was abandoned but everything else was retained and adapted to Islam.

Certainly, it is much easier for an Arab to reconcile his pre-Islamic past with his current identity as a Arab Muslim because Islam's origins are within the Arab people and all of the major Prophets (AS) were Semetic. Islam was already intertwined within Arab culture from the outset. The Quran to this day is recited in the same Arabic as it was presented in to our beloved Prophet (SAW) by the angel Gabriel (AS).

But despite this, I have witnessed non-Gulf Arabs (who are in reality Arabized people, like in the Levant and North African regions) who have also reconciled their pre-Isamic pasts with their Isamic identity. Egyptians, even the religious ones I have met, are not necessarily ashamed of the Pharoahs although it goes without saying that Pharoah is depicted as a arrogant ruler within Islamic scriptures (and Christian as well as Jewish scripture). They simply accept it as their past and some are even proud that a great civilization as that of the Pharaoh's existed in their homeland and gives them an identity that most countries today cannot boast about similar historical pasts.

Similarly with Iran, despite its image as a "Islamist" "extremist" theocratic state that (mostly) western media like to portray, some pre-Islamic traditions are still maintained, with strong Shia overtones. Essentially a new cohesive and uniquely Iranian identity has formed. Ancient Persia is considered as the origin of the modern Iranian nation, and Islam, rather than something that must replace the Iranian historical identity, has only supplemented that previous identity.

Us Pakistanis on the other hand, we have made it very awkward for ourselves by totally rejecting our pre-Islamic past to the point where we must now literally copy-paste other peoples identities to film in the void. But a national identity isn't something that you can just copy-paste because at most you will only be able to do that with the superficial aspects, like clothing and some words and phrases here and there, as those Pakistanis who imitate Arabs do, eventhough what they are imitating from the Arabs are just some pre-Islamic Arab traditions that the Arabs retained.

In the same line we have Pakistani Liberals who wish to imitate the west, but unlike the Arab-wannabe Pakistanis, the former group wishes to imitate an empty Western "culture", which cannot even be labeled a culture in the original sense of that word because it is extremely generic (due to its secular nature), consumer based and globalized. However both Pakistani Liberals and Pakistani Arab-wannabe's have a fundamental thing in common; they adamantly believe that by copying the superficial aspects of another people one will become just like them. This is an extremely delusional thought process. By this definition a Korean cosplaying as a Bedouin has become an Arab as long as he wears their clothes and learns a few phrases of Arabic. Forget the fact that Arabs are a unique people with a strong identity rooted in a particular history of a particular ethnic group from a particular geographic location.

The material expressions of a people's cultural traditions are symbols of the spiritual aspects of their particular history, and Arab history is not simply just Islamic/religion related. By copying the material expressions of another people one does not become that people.

No other Muslim people reduce their history/identity to religion alone, except us Pakistanis; not the Arabs, not the Iranians, not the Bangalis, not the Indonesians, not the Malays, not the Turks, etc.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this because Allah (swta) Himself created us in this manner. As He states in the Quran:

"Oh mankind, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware."- 49:13

"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are signs for men of knowledge."- 30:22

Language falls under cultural traditions, and colour falls under biological diversity, and Islam recognizes both as signs of The Creator, as He Himself states so in the Quran.

Unfortunately there are those even among Muslims who are following the current globalist trend and who say that we must overcome these unique identities, if not, outright destroy them, because they are "haram", eventhough this never occurred to anyone within Islam's more-than-1400 years history. Only now with the push for global consumerism where all organic traditional identities are under assault in order to replace them with man-made consumer identity, do we see this phenomenon of Muslims declaring organic identities as "divisive", "racist" etc. What Allah has created must be "overcome", and we must all become "one and the same".

For us Pakistanis I believe we can reconcile aspects of our pre-Islamic past with Islam as both are necessary to form a coherent National identity, and as the example of other Muslim peoples has proven (Gulf Arabs and Iranians in particular as these are not secular people by their nature).

@Nilgiri @Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @Indus Pakistan @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Well honestly speaking i think our problem is that we don't possess a coherent identity that we are comfortable with and can call our own. This is why we have these three groups that you mentioned, although each of these groups are a minority, they are vocal because the majority is just confused and willing to follow anyone who shouts the loudest (usually from these three mentioned groups).

Our identity issues are deep seated, and thus we are seeking an identity to fill in the void, and usually this is being done by looking at which direction the current wind is flowing and then taking that as a cue to what we should be doing. Perhaps this is a legacy of our colonial past, who knows, there's more than one reason for this.

People here have brought up Arabs and that we Pakistanis try to be Arabs. I would disagree with this statement because I have met so many Arabs in my life from what many would call "religious" or "conservative" countries, for example Yemen and Saudi Arabia. Every Yemeni and Saudi I have met is perfectly comfortable with their pre-Islamic as well as Islamic past and have reconciled the two. There is no conflict there because what contradicted Islam was abandoned but everything else was retained.

Certainly, it is much easier for an Arab to reconcile his pre-Islamic past with his current identity as a Arab Muslim because Islam's origins are within the Arab people and all of the major Prophets (AS) were Semetic. Islam was already intertwined within Arab culture from the outset. The Quran to this day is recited in the same Arabic as it was presented in to our beloved Prophet (SAW) by the angel Gabriel (AS).

But despite this, I have witnessed non-Gulf Arabs (who are in reality Arabized people, like in the Levant and North African regions) who have also reconciled their pre-Isamic pasts with their Isamic identity. Egyptians, even the religious ones I have met, are not necessarily ashamed of the Pharoahs although it goes without saying that Pharoah is depicted as a arrogant ruler within Islamic scriptures (and Christian as well as Jewish scripture). They simply accept it as their past and some are even proud that a great civilization as that of the Pharaoh's existed in their homeland and gives them an identity that most countries today cannot boast about similar historical pasts.

Similarly with Iran, despite its image as a "Islamist" "extremist" theocratic state that (mostly) western media like to portray, some pre-Islamic traditions are still maintained, with strong Shia overtones. Essentially a new cohesive and uniquely Iranian identity has formed. Ancient Persia is considered as the origin of the modern Iranian nation, and Islam, rather than something that must replace the Iranian historical identity, has only supplemented that previous identity.

Us Pakistanis on the other hand, we have made it very awkward for ourselves by totally rejecting our pre-Islamic past to the point where we must now literally copy-paste other peoples identities to film in the void. But a national identity isn't something that you can just copy-paste because at most you will only be able to do that with the superficial aspects, like clothing and some words and phrases here and there, as those Pakistanis who imitate Arabs do, eventhough what they are imitating from the Arabs are just some pre-Islamic Arab traditions that the Arabs retained.

In the same line we have Pakistani Liberals who wish to imitate the west, but unlike the Arab-wannabe Pakistanis, the former group wishes to imitate an empty Western "culture", which cannot even be labeled a culture in the original sense of that word because it is extremely generic (due to its secular nature), consumer based and globalized. However both Pakistani Liberals and Pakistani Arab-wannabe's have a fundamental thing in common; they adamantly believe that by copying the superficial aspects of another people one will become just like them. This is an extremely delusional thought process. By this definition a Korean cosplaying as a Bedouin has become an Arab as long as he wears their clothes and learns a few phrases of Arabic. Forget the fact that Arabs are a unique people with a strong identity rooted in a particular history of a particular ethnic group from a particular geographic location.

The material expressions of a people's cultural traditions are symbols of the spiritual aspects of their particular history, and Arab history is not simply just Islamic/religion related. By copying the material expressions of another people one does not become that people.

No other Muslim people reduce their history/identity to religion alone, except us Pakistanis; not the Arabs, not the Iranians, not the Bangalis, not the Indonesians, not the Malays, not the Turks, etc.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with this because Allah (swta) Himself created us in this manner. As He states in the Quran:

"Oh mankind, We have created you all male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you would recognize each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware."- 49:13

"And of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the difference of your languages and colours. Lo! herein indeed are signs for men of knowledge."- 30:22

Language falls under cultural traditions, and colour falls under biological diversity, and Islam recognizes both as signs of The Creator, as He Himself states so in the Quran.

Unfortunately there are those even among Muslims who are following the current globalist trend and who say that we must overcome these unique identities, if not, outright destroy them, because they are "haram", eventhough this never occurred to anyone within Islam's more-than-1400 years history. Only now with the push for global consumerism where all organic traditional identities are under assault in order to replace them with man-made consumer identity, do we see this phenomenon of Muslims declaring organic identities as "divisive", "racist" etc. What Allah has created must be overcome, and we must all become one and the same.

For us Pakistanis I believe we can reconcile aspects of our pre-Islamic past with Islam as both are necessary to form a coherent National identity, and as the example of other Muslim peoples has proven (Gulf Arabs and Iranians in particular as these are not secular people by their nature).

@Nilgiri @Psychic @Metanoia @LeGenD @Indus Pakistan @Pan-Islamic-Pakistan

That was a great post. I was losing hope in PDF but this thread is turning into a gem. This is what we need. a critical analysis of our situation and identity.

 

[nahtanbob]

Egyptians, even the religious ones I have met, are not necessarily ashamed of the Pharoahs although it goes without saying that Pharoah is depicted as a arrogant ruler within Islamic scriptures (and Christian as well as Jewish scripture). They simply accept it as their past and some are even proud that a great civilization as that of the Pharaoh's existed in their homeland and gives them an identity that most countries today cannot boast about similar historical pasts.

Why would anyone be ashamed of the Pharaohs ? They achieved more in Egypt than any Muslim ruler did
Unlike the Indus Valley Civilization some like to tout the whole world knows about them

 

[Desert Fox]

they are culturally conservative. they have a historical culture of having concubines and mistresses.
you can get unlimited supply of prostitutes in chinese cities. the state winks the other way

Socialism is a left-wing economic model. While, Chinese culture is right-wing conservative.

I purely hate left-wing culture. But I like left-wing economic.

Chinese Communists, like the Soviet Communists before them (from Stalin onwards, in stark contrast with earlier Bolsheviks) realized that cultural conservatism was necessary otherwise a society would collapse and any chance of Marxist economic Socialism/Communism taking off would die in its infancy. And thus you had slogans like "Soviet Motherland" being championed by Soviet Communists. WW2 accelerated this process with the inclusion of additional slogans like "the great patriotic war", and even the Church was revived temporarily during the war.

Not because Soviet Communists became devout Christian monks all of a sudden (@vostok ), but rather only because these slogans and institutions served a necessary function for that moment from a social utilitarian perspective, in the grander scheme of achieving the goals of Communism as laid out by its founder Karl Marx who was no believer of religion or nationhood, but rather a true internationalist/globalist

So when Chinese Communists ban p0rnography, they do so from a social utilitarian standpoint (ie. the greatest good for the greatest number), and not from a religious morality standpoint (that God has forbidden such and such act therefore it is prohibited), because divine laws are not dictated by what is good for the greatest number of people but by The divine entity (God), because what is the greatest good for the greatest number of people is purely relative from person to person and subject to change overtime due to the secular/non-religious nature of utilitarianism.

 

[nahtanbob]

Chinese Communists, like the Soviet Communists before them (from Stalin onwards, in stark contrast with earlier Bolsheviks) realized that cultural conservatism was necessary otherwise a society would collapse and any chance of Marxist economic Socialism/Communism taking off would die in its infancy. And thus you had slogans like "Soviet Motherland" being championed by Soviet Communists. WW2 accelerated this process with the inclusion of additional slogans like "the great patriotic war", and even the Church was revived temporarily during the war.

Not because Soviet Communists became devout Christian monks all of a sudden (@vostok ), but rather only because these slogans and institutions served a necessary function for that moment from a social utilitarian perspective, in the grander scheme of achieving the goals of Communism as laid out by its founder Karl Marx who was no believer of religion or nationhood, but rather a true internationalist/globalist

So when Chinese Communists ban p0rnography, they do so from a social utilitarian standpoint (ie. the greatest good for the greatest number), and not from a religious morality standpoint (that God has forbidden such and such act therefore it is prohibited), because divine laws are not dictated by the greatest number of people but by the divine entity (God).

the only problem with your cultural conservatism theory is that they purged the old elite and destroyed institutions without any mercy.

I have a simpler explanation. the way I look at it they seized power. Once they seized power let me taste all the pleasures of life like the old elite

 

[Desert Fox]

the only problem with your cultural conservatism theory is that they purged the old elite and destroyed institutions without any mercy.

I have a simpler explanation. the way I look at it they seized power. Once they seized power let me taste all the pleasures of life like the old elite

That really goes without saying as it is historically self-evident and I only addressed the points mentioned in the two posts I quoted.

And what I said is not a theory but a fact of history.

 

[nahtanbob]

That really goes without saying as it is historically self-evident and I only addressed the points mentioned in the two posts I quoted.

And what I said is not a theory but a fact of history.

culturally conservative people do not wipe out historical artifacts like in 1966 Cultural Revolution in China

 

[Desert Fox]

culturally conservative people do not wipe out historical artifacts like in 1966 Cultural Revolution in China

Yes, I'm aware that Communists wipe out any historical symbols that represent the past, ie before the advent of Communism (like they are doing in America starting with Confederate monuments). Although Communists aren't the only ones who have done this in history, but every Communist revolution resulted in this kind of "purification" of the past.

But again, I was addressing the points brought up in the two posts I quoted, none of which mentioned anything about wiping out history.

 

[VCheng]

Yes, I'm aware that Communists wipe out any historical symbols that represent the past, ie before the advent of Communism. Although Communists aren't the only ones who have done this in history, but every Communist revolution resulted in this kind of "purification" of the past.

But again, I was addressing the points brought up in the two posts I quoted, none of which mentioned anything about wiping out history.

Not just the Communists try to erase or revise history. There is a reason the Bamian Buddhas were destroyed and Pakistan's schoolbooks begin history with the MBQ invasion, for example.

 

[Verve]

Personally I love free will

We don't have free will! We get choices!

 

[Desert Fox]

Not just the Communists try to erase or revise history. There is a reason the Bamian Buddhas were destroyed and Pakistan's schoolbooks begin history with the MBQ invasion, for example.

As far as the Bamian Buddhas, I think the Taliban did that in retaliation to UN only allowing people to go to Afghanistan for the maintainance of the statues whilst enforcing American led sanctions due to which Afghans were suffering from food shortage and malnutrition. In other words UN was more concerned for the preservation of statues than the preservation of human lives.

Taliban came into power in Afghanistan in 1996 and did not touch the Bamiyan Buddha statues until 2001 due to the above mentioned policy of UN.

Personally, I disagree with what they did to the statues. It was retarded and very bad PR for their side. At the most they should have just turned back the archeologists who were working on those sites.

 

[VCheng]

As far as the Bamian Buddhas, I think the Taliban did that in retaliation to UN only allowing people to go to Afghanistan for the maintainance of the statues whilst enforcing American led sanctions due to which Afghans were suffering from food shortage and malnutrition. In other words UN was more concerned for the preservation of statues than the preservation of human lives.

Taliban came into power in Afghanistan in 1996 and did not touch the Bamiyan Buddha statues until 2001 due to the above mentioned policy of UN.

Personally, I disagree with what they did to the statues. It was retarded and very bad PR for their side. At the most they should have just turned back the archeologists who were working on those sites.

I was merely giving examples about erasing or revising history. ISIS in Syria. The Hindu rabidity destroying the Babri Masjid. Etc. Etc.