The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

[Ultima Thule]

The shock diamond is only visible, when the AB is turned on full blast, not when its only just turned on moderately, which you see only the flaming red butt.

An mentally ill Mr @Asok can you show me specially fighter jets taking off without hot Flaming hot red butt ok i am in elementary school but you're literally illiterate and at end Zuhai airshow 2016 J-20 was not didn't show any Sustain vertical climbs but J-20 did merely 5-6 second and this is not called sustain you retard head Mr @Asok

pakistanipower don't really know what is difference, between Dry Thrust (w/o afterburner), and Wet thrust (w. afterburner).

• Powerplant: 1 × General Electric F110-GE-129
  • Dry thrust: 17,155 lbf (76.3 kN)
  • Thrust with afterburner: 28,600 lbf (127 kN)

• Empty weight: 18,900 lb (8,570 kg)
• Internal fuel: 7,000 pounds (3,200 kg)

Thrust/weight: 1.095 (1.24 with loaded weight & 50% internal fuel)

So, from the above, the empty weight of F-16, plus, 50% internal fuel is:

8,570 kg + (3,200kg * 0.50) = 10,170kg

The Dry Thrust (w/o afterburner) = 76.3 kN or 7,780kg
Wet Thrust (w. afterburner) = 127 kN = 12,950kg

Wet Thrust > Flying Weight > Dry Thrust
12,950kg > 10,170kg > 7,780kg

Dry Thrust to Weight Ratio = 0.765
Wet thrust to Weight Ratio = 1.27

So, we can see, the TWR, w/o AB = 0.765, which is less than 1.0. That means the F-16 can not lift itself vertically, without the use of AB.

And Wet thrust to Weight Ratio = 1.27, so it must turn the AB on, if the pilot wants to do a vertically climb, when carrying 50% internal fuel.

The shock diamond is only visible, when the AB is turned on full blast, not when its only just turned on moderately, which you see only the flaming red butt.

@pakistanipower said he has an engineering background. I wonder what engineering school, he went to. He doesn't seem to have an education, beyond the elementary school.

Otherwise, he would not have failed to do such elementary calculations.

In clean configuration F-16 can easily do vertical climb without A/B have you a comprehension problem Mr @Asok or you are Blind which lives in their fairy tales and fantasy world don't you Mr @Asok

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

China could just buy licence production from Russia for 20 billion dollars sell US bonds and buy Russian Engine

 

[Figaro]

China could just buy licence production from Russia for 20 billion dollars sell US bonds and buy Russian Engine

That is not how the Russian or Chinese defense industries function. The US wasn't willing to sell the F-22 for whatever price ... even when Japan and Israel asked. And I don't think that engines are a military item that ought to be "license" produced.

 

[Asoka]

"Can you show me, specially fighter jets, taking off, without, hot Flaming hot red butt"

Fighters usually take off with full load of internal fuel plus their weapon, so they need to take off with a red hot AB, in full blast, so they can clear the run way. This is why you see that most often during take off.

However, they do could take off w/o AB. There is no reason that they shouldn't use their AB, during take off.

I am not surprised, that you find it, hard to believe, that a large and heavy plane, like the J-20 can climb vertically w/0 AB, while a light and small plane, like F-16, CAN'T.

It's simply too astounding to believe, unless it was captured by multiple video cameras, and witnessed by thousands of aviation professionals, from around the world. It will send shockwave around the world, when the truth gets out.

It all means J-20 has a very very powerful engine, not an underpowered engine like the WS-10 or AL-31.

This is got to be one of the most astounding feat of aeronautical engineering in recent memory.

Gee, why am I wasting my time and keep taking to an "engineer", who couldn't do elementary math?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Time to fast track cooperation

Sell 20-100 Billion in US bonds , get in a Licence production for Twin Engines used in Sukhoi-35 and use it in sealth shared platform

US bonds will go down in value anyways , might as well sell it now when it is bit normal price

Why waste time to rengineers just reuse what Russia already has working 100%

 

[Figaro]

Time to fast track cooperation

Sell 20-100 Billion in US bonds , get in a Licence production for Twin Engines used in Sukhoi-35 and use it in sealth shared platform

US bonds will go down in value anyways , might as well sell it now when it is bit normal price

Why waste time to rengineers just reuse what Russia already has working 100%

That is not how the military-defense complex works in anyway whatsoever ... licensing sensitive engines is a very short-sighted idea ... and I seriously doubt China would be willing to pay Russia 20 billion when their engine development is going down fine (the Chinese aren't really interested in TVC anyways)

"Can you show me, specially fighter jets, taking off, without, hot Flaming hot red butt"

View attachment 421806

Fighters usually take off with full load of internal fuel plus their weapon, so they need to take off with a red hot AB, in full blast, so they can clear the run way. This is why you see that most often during take off.

However, they do could take off w/o AB. There is no reason that they shouldn't use their AB, during take off.

Gee, why am I keep taking to an "engineer", who couldn't do elementary math?

When you see an afterburner, you'll definitely notice that bright engine exhaust glow. Simple. Nothing more to say ...

 

[Ultima Thule]

"Can you show me, specially fighter jets, taking off, without, hot Flaming hot red butt"

View attachment 421806

Fighters usually take off with full load of internal fuel plus their weapon, so they need to take off with a red hot AB, in full blast, so they can clear the run way. This is why you see that most often during take off.

However, they do could take off w/o AB. There is no reason that they shouldn't use their AB, during take off.

Gee, why am I keep taking to an "engineer", who couldn't do elementary math?

What insane you're Mr @Asok its a picture angle that can't shows the your flaming red hot butt, shows me picture that exactly behind the plane not from the side of the jet you intentionally showing a wrong picture to prove you points Mr @Asok every 4 and 4.5 gen jets could take off without use of afterburner because of TWR 1
i am talking about in clean configuration on airshow
Gee, why am i keep talking to literally "illiterate" who couldn't know even elementary math huh Mr @Asok

 

[Figaro]

What insane you're Mr @Asok its a picture angle that can't shows the your flaming red hot butt, shows me picture that exactly behind the plane not from the side of the jet you intentionally showing a wrong picture to prove you points Mr @Asok every 4 and 4.5 gen jets could take off without use of afterburner because of TWR 1
i am talking about in clean configuration on airshow
Gee, why am i keep talking to literally "illiterate" who couldn't know even elementary math huh Mr @Asok

"Can you show me, specially fighter jets, taking off, without, hot Flaming hot red butt"

View attachment 421806

Fighters usually take off with full load of internal fuel plus their weapon, so they need to take off with a red hot AB, in full blast, so they can clear the run way. This is why you see that most often during take off.

However, they do could take off w/o AB. There is no reason that they shouldn't use their AB, during take off.

I am not surprised that you find it hard to believe that a large and heavy plane like the J-20 can climb vertically w/0 AB, while a light and small plane like F-16.

It's simply too astounding to believe, unless it was captured by multiple video cameras and witnessed by thousands of aviation professionals from around the world. It will send shockwave around the world, when the truth gets out.

It all means J-20 has a very very very very powerful engine, not an underpowered engine like the WS-10 or AL-31.

Gee, why am I wasting my time and keep taking to an "engineer", who couldn't do elementary math?

Let's calm down this flame war here and take a breather ... both of you should use more civilized arguments against each other. No need to call some "illiterate" or saying "someone can't do elementary math".

 

[Asoka]

" every 4 and 4.5 gen jets, could take off, without use of afterburner, because of TWR 1"

No need for TWR > 1, nor use of AB, for any plane to take off. Just enough thrust and a long enough runway.

Every commercial airliners (except the Concorde) could take off, without the use of AB, because they don't have one.

I don't know why a badly educated "engineer" like @pakistanipower is start talking about, taking off, with/without Afterburner, now. ''

Did he finally lost his mind, for good? I hope his family is not going to send him to a mental institution.

 

[DarX]

Time to fast track cooperation

Sell 20-100 Billion in US bonds , get in a Licence production for Twin Engines used in Sukhoi-35 and use it in sealth shared platform

US bonds will go down in value anyways , might as well sell it now when it is bit normal price

Why waste time to rengineers just reuse what Russia already has working 100%

The engines in the SU-35 still don't match the technology of the F-22 and F-35 engines. That is the main problem and even Russia is not able to fix that at the moment.

 

[Ultima Thule]

" every 4 and 4.5 gen jets could take off without use of afterburner because of TWR 1"

No need for TWR > 1, nor use of AB, for any plane to take off. Just enough thrust and a long enough runway.

Every commercial airliners (except the Concorde) could take off, without the use of AB, because they don't have one.

I don't know why a badly educated "engineer" like @pakistanipower is start talking about, taking off, with/without Afterburner, now. ''

Did he finally lost his mind, for good? I hope his family is not going to send him to a mental institution.

And you are already in mental hospital, I can shows you a clips of J-20 with a red hot butt but not using afterburner, red hot butt doesn't means afterburning engines you mentally ill Mr @Asoka

 

[samsara]

Time to fast track cooperation

Sell 20-100 Billion in US bonds , get in a Licence production for Twin Engines used in Sukhoi-35 and use it in sealth shared platform

US bonds will go down in value anyways , might as well sell it now when it is bit normal price

Why waste time to rengineers just reuse what Russia already has working 100%

Article about the efforts in the early 1990s:

"If the modern combat aircraft is a crown to high-tech, then the top aero engine is the crown jewel. At present there are more than 10 countries in the world having the capabilities to design and manufacture aircraft, but only a handful of countries that are capable of conducting the independent research and development of aero engines."

"The world aviation has many engine models, but there are only a few core engines, and the core engine has the most important role. Core engine technology is the highest technical secrets of a country - they are tightly guarded by the foreign countries."

"From the last century since the late 50s, China has independently developed ways of aeroengine exploration, although hard, but did not go to the formation of equipment this step, keep on imports, imitation and modification to meet the new need of military aero engine research. But to get only three or four stream technology and products, even the second rate can not be bought, not to mention the top class. Until today, China's aviation engine in service are more or less with foreign origin. If Chinese are to build the advanced fighter aircraft of their own, then we must have its own aircraft engines, so as not to be under the heteronomy in the key areas, because the weapons are "sensitive" to any country, no country will selflessly "arm" other countries with their own key technology. Therefore, our country started the development of high thrust weight ratio turbofan engine in the development of a new generation fighter at the same time."

If you do read just the recent posts in this thread before throwing in here you will notice above! China has been starting the independent research on the high thrust weight ratio (TWR) core engine since the early 1990s... the fruit should be on hand/soon/within pretty near future... they have not yet mastered the habits to make the explicit euphoric announcement to the world so we can only derive from various indirect revelations and signs. Along the tedious, long, costly efforts they should have learned and mastered a lot of things aside from the final products. Think also about those spin-off advantages incl. the intermediary processes gained to the many industries. If China just bought it, and supposed some party was willing to sell the latest, the most advanced core engine technology, then China might have skipped a lot of learning process in between... a learning curve that cannot be ignored indeed.... there are many pluses minuses between the two approaches: independent research and licensed purchase... but in reality there may not be such option as no party is willing to sell (to be licensed produced) its most advanced engine core technology... 2nd rate tech may be available though. One can see the other population giant that's spending a lot in conducting the shopping sprees (nope, not the ME oil rich spoils)... where is its position today in term of tech prowess?


Note: while we're having fun here, please remember to keep oneself updated with the dedicated thread about China's aero-engine as well:
https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/chinese-aero-engine-information-thread.300409/page-44

 

[LJQC]

Another option is to look at the nozzle position to judge if it's in afterburner or not in case you cannot see the flame. Most aircraft will have the nozzle almost fully open at Max AB, and slightly or half open at MIL.

For example in F-16C Block50 (F110-GE129), the nozzle position do not exceed 15% at MIL power. At MIL and above, the DEEC schedules the nozzle to control engine pressure ratio as a function of fan speed. When the throttle is advanced in the AB range, the DEEC schedules the nozzle open to compensate for increasing AB fuel flow. (ref T.O.GR1-F-16CJ-1 manual)

For the following pictures, the nozzle of J20 is quite opened and AB is ignited:

It has a possibility that the J20 is using moderate AB when performing vertical climb at the airshow. If using MIL, the nozzle shouldn't be that open.

 

[Beast]

China could just buy licence production from Russia for 20 billion dollars sell US bonds and buy Russian Engine

As if you can trust Russian when comes to critical technology? We wanted to buy 38 IL-76 transport plane to strengthen our transport capabilities. Guess what? These Russian has an appetite which can never be satisfy. Ask Indians too.

With USD 20 billion, China rather invest in its own talent and industries.

Do not believe the hype China cannot produced high end aero engine. If we can come up gas turbine for our destroyer , 1500hp auto transmission tank engine for our VT-4 tank. High performance Aero engine is highly possible as you see PLAAF has no problem equipping J-10B and J-20.

 

[Asoka]

As if you can trust Russian when comes to critical technology? We wanted to buy 38 IL-76 transport plane to strengthen our transport capabilities. Guess what? These Russian has an appetite which can never be satisfy. Ask Indians too.

With USD 20 billion, China rather invest in its own talent and industries.

Do not believe the hype China cannot produced high end aero engine. If we can come up gas turbine for our destroyer , 1500hp auto transmission tank engine for our VT-4 tank. High performance Aero engine is highly possible as you see PLAAF has no problem equipping J-10B and J-20.

"High performance Aero engine is highly possible as you see PLAAF has no problem equipping J-10B and J-20."

Yup, China has no problem producing high TWR engines now, to equip J-10B and J-20.

@LJQC I have made an animated gif file of the J-20's vertical climb at the Zhuhai Airshow. It's too big to upload to PDF. I am sharing this file at my Google Doc.

Please download this file, and take a close look, frame by frame, to see, if the AB is used, during the climb, or not.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...-Vtupz3j6PAVhOB8wsIkGhrVS6AScl15OuPqFsnY0/pub