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The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

While not all trade wars (sanctions) ended up as shooting wars, all shooting wars started first with economic sanctions (not trading with you anymore).
Looks like Trump didn't get the memo ... I just checked
Trump reportedly demands China action: 'I want tariffs. And I want someone to bring me some tariffs'
  • Axios reported that President Donald Trump recently demanded someone on his staff draw up plans for tariffs that would impact China
  • The White House did not dispute the account, Axios said
Everett Rosenfeld | @Ev_Rosenfeld
Published 5 Hours AgoCNBC.com

Carlo Allegri | Reuters
Donald Trump
President Donald Trump recently dismissed some of his senior staff as globalists and demanded that someone draw up a plan for tariffs that would affect China, Axios reported Sunday evening.

Citing multiple sources with knowledge of the meeting — and noting that the White House had not disputed the accounts —the outlet reported that Trump had issued the demand during an Oval Office meeting with top advisors.

"So, John, I want you to know, this is my view. I want tariffs. And I want someone to bring me some tariffs," Axios quotes the president as saying to John Kelly, his chief of staff.


Trump then reportedly ended his meeting by saying: "I know there are some people in the room right now that are upset. I know there are some globalists in the room right now. And they don't want them, John, they don't want the tariffs. But I'm telling you, I want tariffs."

People in the meeting — which was set to be about plans to investigate China for intellectual property theft — included U.S. Trade Representative Robert Lighthizer, trade advisor Peter Navarro, National Economic Council Director Gary Cohn and then-White House chief strategist Steve Bannon, according to Axios.

Here's the non-denial that the White House gave to Axios: "The president has been very clear about his agenda as it relates to trade. Discussions pertaining to specific tariffs and trade deals are ongoing and have already resulted in many positive developments."

And Donny expects Chinese help on North Korea :rofl::cuckoo::omghaha:
 
" but why should I be a China-basher or why do some claim I wish any harm only due to my conclusion it uses a Russian originated engine?"

You got misled, I am afraid. I don't detected a China bashing bone in you. I admit. I have read a few of your published articles. They are highly neutral in tones, and you tell only a little of what you actually knew. I won't call you a "China fanboy". They got this impression may be because you knew so much, while they knew so little.

"Maybe those people are CIA (Chinese Intel Agency, I mean PRC spy) who don't want people to know about Chinese real capability, or maybe they are clueless. But just leave them alone. "

That's what I have been suggesting. They were ordered to do so. But the phase of Strategic Deception is over, IMO. The war clouds are gathering over China and Russia and the rest of the world. Strong deterrence, should take the center stage, to prevent war.

Massive number of the highly capable J-20, will be at the forefront, of this conventional force deterrent.

"Finally there are few who think it is a mystical hybrid or Frankenstein WS-10X based on the WS-10's core mated with an AL-31FN-nozzle + other certain modifications to fool us ..."

I am one of those guys. But let's get this straight.

1.) I think the prototype WS-15, that first flew on J-20, in 2011, was an engine with a WS-15 engine core, not WS-10 core.

2.) It was not mated with AL-31FN-Nozzle. It was an original 3D TVC nozzle. made in China. Its external appearance happen to look like the AL-31FN Nozzle.

3.) This similarity was not intentional, but incidental. It was not meant to fool anyone.

4.) The fact that many people confused J-20's engine with AL-31FN, is no fault of the designers.

"Following nearly all others, here at PDF, the WS-15 has finished bench testing, and is ready to enter flight testing "soon""

Not "soon", but already done. The ground bench testing has already completed, over a decade ago. And took flight testing onboard of J-20 has taken place on Jan. 2011.

The fact that WS-15's engine core, has entered ground bench testing, and meet all design parameters specifications, in 2005, is not just my personal opinion.

As I have mentioned earlier, an insider has revealed this ground bench testing, in a long article in China's "Ordnance Industry Science Technology", 2007, Vol. 7.

"For China's New Generation of Fighters - A Study on China's High Thrust to Weight Ratio TurboFan Engine Core's Development"

You can do a machine translation here, and read it, if you don't believe me.

http://bbs.tiexue.net/post2_7040813_1.html


It's safe to say, all the people here at PDF added together, don't know WS-15's engine core more than this engineer, who wrote this article and worked in this project.
Thanks @Asok for the link, it's a good yet "thick" read... moderately long article filled up with many technical stuffs... very tough for a layman like me, EVEN IF it's presented in plain English language...which is not the case. :-)

Inside the Chinese high performance turbofan engine core machine

Early 2014

Introduction: from the design and verification of a part, the high thrust weight ratio core engine high pressure compressor, the main combustion chamber, high pressure turbine three core components and the development of axisymmetric vectoring nozzle......

The secret of China's high thrust weight ratio turbofan engine core machine development

If the modern combat aircraft is a crown to high-tech, then the top aero engine is the crown jewel. At present there are more than 10 countries in the world having the capabilities to design and manufacture aircraft, but only a handful of countries that are capable of conducting the independent research and development of aero engines. Throughout the development of advanced turbojet and turbofan engines by the United States. Russia and Europe, they did not start the study from advanced stage, but first through the core engine development, and then through the verification of machine development. The so-called core machine, is the gas turbine engine by high pressure compressor, combustion chamber and turbine three main components and related accessories consisting of a core part of the engine. Based on the core machine with necessary modifications, with a fan, low pressure turbine, afterburner, control system and drive system and other corresponding components can be developed for military turbofan engine, civil turbofan engine, ship gas turbine engine and a series of. The world aviation has many engine models, but there are only a few core engines, and the core engine has the most important role. Core engine technology is the highest technical secrets of a country - they are tightly guarded by the foreign countries. So, under this situation, how did China develop its aero engine having the high performance turbofan core engine?

A prior study results achieved

From the last century since the late 50s, China has independently developed ways of aeroengine exploration, although hard, but did not go to the formation of equipment this step, keep on imports, imitation and modification to meet the new need of military aero engine research. But to get only three or four stream technology and products, even the second rate can not buy, not to mention the top class. Until today, China's aviation engine in service are more or less with foreign origin. If Chinese are to build the advanced fighter aircraft of their own, then we must have its own aircraft engines, so as not to be under the heteronomy in the key areas, because the weapons are "sensitive" to any country, no country will selflessly "arm" other countries with their own key technology. Therefore, our country started the development of high thrust weight ratio turbofan engine in the development of a new generation fighter at the same time.

High performance turbofan engine is the first program in China from the beginning of research in advance, and then become a model, and installed the background clear air power projects. It is opposite to our country in service and other in aero engine research, and is a comprehensive technology of aero engine across generations. Therefore, it has independently developed the whole process of aero engine for China to walk, to narrow the gap with western developed countries, to provide power equipment qualified for a new generation of fighters are loaded with huge trust and hope! "Ten years", the last century at the end of 90s, China's advance research of high thrust weight ratio turbofan engine, completed its basic components development, test and core machine design a series of technical support, to achieve the pre research stage of the development target. As the main development unit China Gas Turbine Research Institute of AVIC I intend to take breath, a new generation of fighter aircraft and high thrust weight ratio turbofan engine with matching together is listed as the national major scientific breakthrough project. The task is clear, development of high thrust weight ratio of core engine, test machine and the model for later research foundation. High performance turbofan engine core machine, air power is peak too never climb to the top of our country, and in front of the cross climber is composed of more than 160 key technical .... 160余项关键技术构成的雄关险隘。

[...]

In the turbo ground test platform, the core machine by high thrust weight ratio have a sense of rhythm, a tight like a fighter, as long as the whistle day sprint! The operation before the screen, technicians staring at a computer screen on the green curve of high thrust weight ratio of core engine, all eyes looked at all kinds of instruments, they held my breath. Visitors to visit the room, leader of the study, the use of military experts, some stand up, they leave the seat went to the big screen, close observation of the running state of high thrust weight ratio of core engine, concern is seen on the face. With the throttle slowly goes up, pushing high than the core machine issued a howling is more compact, smooth curves reflect the green thrust through the "resonance", all the way up, until the maximum state vertex. The success of the test! This is the core engine ground test of high thrust weight ratio of a history of China's aviation industry moment - China has independently developed technology, cross generation, with the international advanced level reached the maximum, Chinese marks the most advanced turbofan aeroengine is developed and crossed - heavy man! For this moment, a turbo and more than 50 research units in our country. Thousands of people have done for the full 15 years of struggle. Then the researchers and not because of "a little" victory and pleased with oneself, but also successfully completed all done in one vigorous effort, ground test bench. The high thrust weight ratio turbofan engine core machine in China was born

Seven, the conclusion

In 15 years, thousands of people participate in Research Institute and AVIC turbo units to tackle together from the exploration and breakthrough of a key technology, from the beginning of the design and verification of a part, step by step, the high pressure compressor, high thrust weight ratio of core engine main combustion chamber, high pressure turbine developed three core components and Aven, has gone through the design, preparation of documents until the core engine technology design core machine engineering drawing design and related technology and processing plant - core - core machine assembly machine in Turbo ground station on fire a successful and smooth push to idle state test to test all the maximum ground state on the ground. High performance machine core facing the wind and rain hard, along the way, has created more than 80 domestic aviation engine first developed. The success of high thrust weight ratio of core engine research, China in aero engine development history wrote a thick and heavy in colours.

The successful development of high performance core engine, for our country in the ascent of air power during the peak of high thrust weight ratio to set up "camp", the "base camp", our country will be able to schedule the conquest of high thrust weight ratio turbofan aeroengine peak, the new generation of war machine in China sent to the sky.

In twenty-first Century the engine requires a high thrust weight ratio to reduce the structural weight, development and manufacturing costs, which made more stringent requirements on the manufacturing technology, the engine structure process tougher. Therefore, foreign countries will study new manufacturing technology group.

[...]
 
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Thanks @Asok for the link, it's a good yet "thick" read... moderately long article filled up with many technical stuffs... very tough for a layman like me, even if it's presented in plain English language... :-)

This is not plain english, but machine translated 'english'. It's hard for me to understand, even I have read the Chinese version of it.

Note, this article was originally published in 2007, in China's Journal of Ordinance Technology, and then republished at some websites years later. The date that the TWR 10 engine core passed the all ground bench testing parameters was in 2005.

"In 15 years, thousands of people participate in Research Institute and AVIC turbo units, to tackle together from the exploration and breakthrough of a key technology, from the beginning of the design, and verification of a part, step by step, the high pressure compressor . . . "
 
I don't understand what you're trying to compare here. The Chinese Mig-21 variants were not under-powered by any means. If the J-20 is using an imported Russian engine, chances are it is highly underpowered.
Why did you guy keep on rehearsing that the J-20 is using an imported Russian engine, even though wrapped up under the euphemised IF Clause.

The Chinese official media already informed us at least on two occasions that the J-20 is using the domestic-made engine.

Or do you have any proof to counter the info from the official media?

On another read @Asok just provided a good link to read. I'll just quote the few lines here:

The world aviation has many engine models, but there are only a few core engines, and the core engine has the most important role. Core engine technology is the highest technical secrets of a country - they are tightly guarded by the foreign countries. So, under this situation, how did China develop its aero engine having the high performance turbofan core engine?

From the last century since the late 50s, China has independently developed ways of aero engine exploration, although hard, but did not go to the formation of equipment this step, keep on imports, imitation and modification to meet the new need of military aero engine research. But by doing that only getting three or four streams of technology and products, even can not buy the second rate technology, not to mention the top class. Until today, China's aviation engine in service are more or less with foreign origin.

If Chinese are to build the advanced fighter aircraft of their own, then we must have its own aircraft engines, so as not to be under the heteronomy in the key areas, because the weapons are "sensitive" to any country, no country will selflessly "arm" other countries with their own key technology. Therefore, our country started the development of high thrust weight ratio turbofan engine in the development of a new generation fighter at the same time.


This article was originally published in 2007, in China's Journal of Ordinance Technology, and then republished at some websites years later.

More in that related thread.
 
There aren't many options for China to choose, to put a jet engine on J-20, back in 2010.

It could either be

1.) a WS-10
2.) AL-31
3.) WS-15

One assumption is that according to the structure of flame holder, WS10 is very different from what J-20 has. At least for 2012/2013 batch.
½Øͼ00.jpg
 
Why did you guy keep on rehearsing that the J-20 is using an imported Russian engine, even though wrapped up under the euphemised IF Clause.

The Chinese official media already informed us at least on two occasions that the J-20 is using the domestic-made engine.

Or do you have any proof to counter the info from the official media?

On another read @Asok just provided a good link to read. I'll just quote the few lines here:


"If the J-20 is using an imported Russian engine, chances are it is highly underpowered."

I don't think Figaro still believes in the AL-31-FN-M2 theory.

He is merely remind us that, if that's the case, J-20 will be underpowered. But J-20 never showed any signs of being underpowered. Quite the opposite, it could lift itself vertically in a sustained manner, without AB.
 
One assumption is that according to the structure of flame holder, WS10 is very different from what J-20 has. At least for 2012/2013 batch.
View attachment 421601


That's right Ws-10 has no similarity with the current engine on J-20. It has even less chance of being on J-20 than AL-31, which at least has the similarity argument.
 
That's right Ws-10 has no similarity with the current engine on J-20. It has even less chance of being on J-20 than AL-31, which at least has the similarity argument.


Agreed, the WS-10X-theory was indeed never on the agenda for anyone with a common sense. For that the J-20's engine and all WS-10 we know so far are too much different. .... and too similar to an AL-31FN-offspring. :p:
 
Agreed, the WS-10X-theory was indeed never on the agenda for anyone with a common sense. For that the J-20's engine and all WS-10 we know so far are too much different. .... and too similar to an AL-31FN-offspring. :p:


Given the lack of information, regarding the identity of the engine, I can easily understand why people think the J-20 is flying with the AL-31FN. They are indeed highly similar in external appearance, but I am just very confused as why they think it is the WS-10 that is on J-20.

No one has ever given an explanation or justification.

In my opinion, the claim that J-20 is flying with a Chinese made Russian engine, is not that far from the truth, if WS-15's engine core, is indeed, based on a variant of the Russian R-79 engine. It's just not a Chinese made AL-31 variant.
 
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Given the lack of information, regarding the identity of the engine, I can easily understand why people think the J-20 is flying with the AL-31FN. They are indeed highly similar in external appearance, but I am just very confused as why they think it is the WS-10 that is on J-20.

No one has ever given an explanation or justification.


Ohhh come on, I gave You so often !

Just remember: it looks like an apple, it smells like an apple, it even tastes like an apple... so it is surely a banana since I don't like apples! :dance3:
 
Given the lack of information, regarding the identity of the engine, I can easily understand why people think the J-20 is flying with the AL-31FN. They are indeed highly similar in external appearance, but I am just very confused as why they think it is the WS-10 that is on J-20.

No one has ever given an explanation or justification.
And you no concrete facts that J-20 is using WS-15 since its first flight you mentality ill @Asok
 
Ohhh come on, I gave You so often !

Just remember: it looks like an apple, it smells like an apple, it even tastes like an apple... so it is surely a banana since I don't like apples! :dance3:

"Ohhh come on, I gave You so often !"


What are you talking about, you are a fan of the AL-31 theory, not the WS-10 theory.

No one has ever given an explanation or justification that J-20 is using the WS-10 engine.
 
"Ohhh come on, I gave You so often !"

What are you talking about, you are a fan of the AL-31 theory, not the WS-10 theory.

No one has ever given an explanation or justification that J-20 is using the WS-10 engine.

Oh You meant, why peoples follow the WS-10-theory? Then I got Your reply wrong.

IMO this is most of all related to the fact that they know and accept that the WS-15 is completely impossible and was never a realistic option of these three possibilities mentioned above, but since the WS-10 is China's most successful - and so far only - available high-thrust engine it is the only other explanation.

So it is almost the last straw to cling to, not to admit, it can be only an AL-31. :p:
 
Ohhh come on, I gave You so often !

Just remember: it looks like an apple, it smells like an apple, it even tastes like an apple... so it is surely a banana since I don't like apples! :dance3:
Sir you are slamming your head on the wall @Asok insist in his crap:hitwall:
 

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