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The J-20-engine discussion is over and other speculative topics ... to separate from the J-20-news !

AMEN :angel:

Since it is de fact what I'm sayi8ng since I'm a member here. The only point I don't agree, I'm almost sure it is - as in the J-10B/C - an AL-31FN-based design with the gear-box relocated. IMO it does not make sense to re-use the same arrangement of a Flanker when the J-10 uses the same engine installation.

Otherwise You are spot on, since it explains both the relationship, the external similarities and also the "made in China" claims.

Deino




Yes ... but that would be impossible to accept by some here. :p:

Sorry I am a bit confused of what you disagreed. But if I guessed that right, you might have thought my reference to AL-31F was only the one on a Flanker but the AL-31FN. If so, I have to clarify that my reference to AL-31F is generally of the engine family and it does include the AL-31FN variant.

Some overhaul production lines were reportedly imported from Russia to a PLA facility in early years when Su-27 fighters were imported. It was also reported that thereafter the PLA facility developed a series of rebuild solutions using advanced technology to rebuild over worn parts and extend their live cycles. So I guess that is just the place to complete final assembly of the current J-20 engines, with parts being outsourced to other companies in China.

Of course there is yet credible evidence to back my guess.
 
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Such an engine might be manufactured from scratch as it is known that there are already overhaul and rebuild production lines for AL-31F in China, or more likely, from an imported AL-31F with parts being replaced or even some bigger adjustment applied.

Last time I was in a dinner with guys including Yankee(养鸡) talking about turning performance of J-20, I got the information that the sustained turn performance at subsonic speeds is pretty comparable to that of a F-16. On what altitude/detailed speed settings he did not say. But to me it totally make sense when J-20 is using AL-31F thrust level engines.

And speaking of vertical climb, the Russian Knights at Aero India 2013 performed a vertical climb that sustained longer than that of J-20 at Zhuhai airshow 2016, without any visible shock diamond. So it's reasonable for J-20 to do the same.

 
Sorry I am a bit confused of what you disagreed. But if I guessed that right, you might have thought my reference to AL-31F was only the one on a Flanker but the AL-31FN. If so, I have to clarify that my reference to AL-31F is generally of the engine family and it does include the AL-31FN variant.

....

Yes. I just wanted to differ between the Flanker's AL-31F and the FN. Otherwise I fully agree with you.
 
All the oceans of ink spilled about the J-20's engines obscure one very crucial fact: They're dogsh*t that don't belong on a stealth fighter. Full stop. Whether they're WS-10-Somethings or AL-31-Whatevers, they don't belong on the J-20. I don't know why we're splitting hairs about whether the inadequate engines are Russian or Chinese.

There's been talk that the WS-15 won't be ready until 2022 at the earliest -- that is absolutely outrageous if true. Why this sorry state of affairs?
 
Yes. I just wanted to differ between the Flanker's AL-31F and the FN. Otherwise I fully agree with you.
Isn't one made by Salyut and the other by Saturn? If I'm correct, they're two different companies who share similar designations...

All the oceans of ink spilled about the J-20's engines obscure one very crucial fact: They're dogsh*t that don't belong on a stealth fighter. Full stop. Whether they're WS-10-Somethings or AL-31-Whatevers, they don't belong on the J-20. I don't know why we're splitting hairs about whether the inadequate engines are Russian or Chinese.

There's been talk that the WS-15 won't be ready until 2022 at the earliest -- that is absolutely outrageous if true. Why this sorry state of affairs?
I don't see why a 140-150 kN engine would be unsuitable for the J-20? Both it and the F-22 are in the same weight class (J-20 might be even lighter) while the F-119 only offers a bit more thrust @156. That's not to big of a difference although the latter offers thrust vectoring ...

Last time I was in a dinner with guys including Yankee(养鸡) talking about turning performance of J-20, I got the information that the sustained turn performance at subsonic speeds is pretty comparable to that of a F-16. On what altitude/detailed speed settings he did not say. But to me it totally make sense when J-20 is using AL-31F thrust level engines.

And speaking of vertical climb, the Russian Knights at Aero India 2013 performed a vertical climb that sustained longer than that of J-20 at Zhuhai airshow 2016, without any visible shock diamond. So it's reasonable for J-20 to do the same.

It could perhaps be the AoA limiter... the J-20's ITR should be pretty close to the F-22 given its aerodynamic layout. The F-16 comparison is a little too conservative... but then again, the Zhuhai demonstration wasn't great either. We'll just have to look at more videos...
 
Isn't one made by Salyut and the other by Saturn? If I'm correct, they're two different companies who share similar designations...
...


Nope ... both Salyut and Saturn produce the AL-31F for the Flanker series, however the AL-31FN and -FN Series 3 is only produced by Salyut. And now take a look who delivers its engine to which Chinese company?

AL-31F for the Flanker series: ... deliveries to Shenyang only !
Salyut (http://salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=663),
UMPO aka npo-Saturn (http://www.umpo.ru/en/Good435_139_113.aspx)

AL-31FN / -FN Series 3 for the J-10 series ... deliveries to Chengdu only !
Salyut (http://salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=664)

... and then make a guess who developed the AL-31FM-family ?? :laugh:

Deino
 
@Zhu Rong Zheng Yang
Already done ! ... by the way, what's Your conclusion on the latest engine discussion following cirr's post?

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/the-...j-20-thread-clean.514445/page-14#post-9825798

I am sorry for cluttering the J-20 thread with off topic posts.
When, I have a Detailed, Solid and Tangible Proof that J-20 is using PRC self made engine,
I will post them on this thread asap.
For now, I will be quiet.


Maybe has been posted before ... ...

J-20A ~ sn 78274 , 78275, 78276

J-20A--( sn 78274 78275 78276 )--1a.jpg
 
I am sorry for cluttering the J-20 thread with off topic posts.
When, I have a Detailed, Solid and Tangible Proof that J-20 is using PRC self made engine,
I will post them on this thread asap.
For now, I will be quiet.


Maybe has been posted before ... ...

J-20A ~ sn 78274 , 78275, 78276

View attachment 422715
Already posted! Sorry ... but this was the day before the 81 parade
 
Some guy posted a picture of J-20, alongside with a picture of Taihang mountain, don't change anything or mean anything.

It is strange that some people think it does.
 
Some guy posted a picture of J-20, alongside with a picture of Taihang mountain, don't change anything or mean anything.

It is strange that some people think it does.


Issue is only that this "Some guy" is pupu; I'm sure Yu know him.

So IMO even if I agree to be careful and not to take any Big Shrimp's word for gospel, he is surely not only an ordinary "some guy".

At least You have to admit IF these reports that a WS-10-version WILL power (and so never did so far) the chances of the two other options became dramatically smaller. Or not?
 
I don't see why a 140-150 kN engine would be unsuitable for the J-20? Both it and the F-22 are in the same weight class (J-20 might be even lighter) while the F-119 only offers a bit more thrust @156. That's not to big of a difference although the latter offers thrust vectoring...
This make sense for project mgmt, use proven tech in roll out and could see ws-15 later on. J20 is top priority/national security issue for plaaf...people need to step back and just smile that you are alive and knows nothing.
 
Last time I was in a dinner with guys including Yankee(养鸡) talking about turning performance of J-20, I got the information that the sustained turn performance at subsonic speeds is pretty comparable to that of a F-16. On what altitude/detailed speed settings he did not say. But to me it totally make sense when J-20 is using AL-31F thrust level engines.

And speaking of vertical climb, the Russian Knights at Aero India 2013 performed a vertical climb that sustained longer than that of J-20 at Zhuhai airshow 2016, without any visible shock diamond. So it's reasonable for J-20 to do the same.


1.) The first 15 seconds was a loop, not a vertical climb. The second climb is a high angle, near vertical climb that made Flankers family famous. I estimate the angle, during the climb, to be around 65-70 degrees.

Screen Shot 2017-09-02 at 11.03.34 PM.png

2.) I see no long bluish flame shooting out, either. Probably using military power.

3.) The Su-30SM used by the Russian Knights weights empty at 17,800kg and uses the AL-31FP engine with Max Thrust 125KN. (I estimate the J-20, is at least two tons ,more than F-22's 19.7 tons. There is more than 4 tons difference of weight between Su-30sm and J-20. Also how much fuel they are carrying is also an important factor. So its important to see when did they demonstrated a real vertical climb, at the beginning of a long demo or at the end.)

4.) So I see no reason to believe that Su-30SM can't do, what we have seen in this video. It has excellent aerodynamic characteristics that allow it, to climb with such high angle, without losing control.

5.) But at 70 degrees, is at the edge of the wing stall limit, of all modern fighters, including the Su-30, F-22, T-50 and J-20.

Beyond that, the wings lose its ability to create upward lift, and must rely solely on the engine performance to provide the vertical lift, necessary for the genuine vertical climb, in a sustained manner (that is, not a loop).

Further more, the high attack angle, makes the whole plane acts like a giant air brake, that quickly bleeds the horizontal speed to zero. So it does not make sense to point your nose that high, if you want to climb fast.

A slow vertical climb is usually done to demonstrate that you have abundant excess engine power.

Issue is only that this "Some guy" is pupu; I'm sure Yu know him. I don't follow rumors.

I got my informations from reading technical articles and make up my mind, if the performances of J-20 fits what I have read.

So IMO even if I agree to be careful and not to take any Big Shrimp's word for gospel, he is surely not only an ordinary "some guy".

At least You have to admit IF these reports that a WS-10-version WILL power (and so never did so far) the chances of the two other options became dramatically smaller. Or not?

I actually don't know him. Never read anything he said. Some one might have mentioned his name in the past, several months ago.

WS-10's design was Frozen in 2006, and went into serial production around 2009.

And J-20's appeared in late 2010. If a new engine, other than the original Ws-10, powered J-20's first flight, then this engine must be developed and bench tested between 2006-2010.

And this engine has 3-D TVC, 210kN thrust as we have seen.

There are still no words that another version of WS-10 is being developed. No pictures, no official announcements. Nothing. I believe the WS-10 line, will be dropped, in favor of Ws-15. That is, no more variants, after the first Ws-10.

But there are plenty of rumors, and even official acknowledgment that there is an engine called WS-15, that is its intended engine for J-20. In 2007, an insider even wrote a long article described how this engine's core was developed, and that it passed all ground bench tests in 2005, and in 2006, officially established the project to complete a TWR 10 engine.

By the way, WS-10-version, is not AL-31, isn't it?

Did you dropped your AL-31 theory, in favor of the WS-10-version theory?
 
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Just as a teacher I use red now !

...


I actually don't know him. Never read anything he said. Some one might have mentioned his name in the past, several months ago.

WS-10's design was Frozen in 2006, and went into serial production around 2009.
And J-20's appeared in late 2010. If a new engine, other than the original Ws-10, powered J-20's first flight, then this engine must be developed and tested between 2006-2010. Irrelevant if by his statement the WS-10 WILL power and so did not.


And this engine has 3-D TVC, 210kN thrust as we have seen. Wrong ! Just in Your imagination.

There are still no words that another version of WS-10 is being developed. No pictures, no official announcements. Nothing. I believe the WS-10 line, will be dropped, in favor of Ws-15.

But there are plenty of rumors, and even official acknowledgment that there is an engine called WS-15, that is its intended engine for J-20. In 2007, an insider even wrote a long article described how this engine's core was developed, and that it passed all ground bench tests in 2005, and in 2006, officially established the project to complete a TWR 10 engine. Indeed the key word is "intended". As such no WS-15 yet and if also no WS-10 yet ... what option remains?

By the way, WS-10-version, is not AL-31, isn't it? YES, but since it does not use a WS-10 how is this an argument

Did you dropped your AL-31 theory, in favor of the WS-10-version theory? NO; but probably You cannot read properly

Not sure what's wrong, maybe You are just too much confused.

Pupu states that the WS-10 will power the J-20 some day soon, so it does not now. Aka if not even a WS-10 is ready now on the J-20, how could it be a WS-15??

So what option then remains?
1+1 = 2

Deino
 
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Just as a teacher I use red now !



Not sure what's wrong, maybe You are just too much confused.

Pupu states that the WS-10 will power the J-20 some day soon, so it does not now. Aka if not even a WS-10 is ready now, how could it be a WS-15??

So what option then remains?
1+1 = 2

Deino

"Aka if not even a WS-10 is ready now, how could it be a WS-15??"

What?

WS-10 has been powering J-10 and J-11 for years, already.

You mean if both Ws-10 and Ws-15 are not ready, it mean only the choice left is AL-31-FN-M2 that is powering J-20 from day one?
 
J 20 may have 3 production line mix between Al31 and. Ws15. That produces J20 36 aircraft per year .The forth line will start in 2019 with ws15 with twc. is it true?
 

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