The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

[Bratva]

Customization is a one time cost. We don't have to pay for integration of equipment again and again.

French Rafale prices have been pretty constant. Only addition of new tech has increased price, which is perfectly fine. The entire program for the French is only 4% above budget.

The journalist is misinformed. The IGA has all the main details of how we purchase new jets. We had the same thing with the Russians for the MKI also, that's why we paid only $40M for the 42 new jets from Russia, which was adjusted according to inflation since the first deal, and that was more than 12 years after the first signature.

How so customization is one time cost ? Is there a clause in deal which says if india goes for the next batch of Rafael, You dont have to pay for the India specific customization once again or a clause which says India patent those customization and will profit from it if France sells rafael with india specific customization to another country similar to What UAE F-16 deal where UAE will get profit if Block 60 gets sold to another country ?

Sir, I fail to understand that are you trying to close your eyes with your own hand. First check what does this Rafale deal means.

Negotiations over the past 17 months have yielded more advantages to the Indian side over the MMRCA deal. The French had made an opening offer of €12 billion in May 2015 when the negotiations began. The French offer came down to €8.6 billion on the midnight of 25-26 January, 2016 when French President François Hollande was in India as a chief guest for the Republic Day celebrations. But the Indian side wanted the price to be reduced further. It was in May 2016 that the two sides finally agreed at a price of €7.878 billion.. Prime Minister Modi had confirmed in Paris in April 2015 that India would buy 36 Rafales, all built in France. The Rafales will have 14 India-specific enhancements and MBDA-built 150km-range Meteor air-to-air missiles & Scalp-EG cruise missiles as part of the €7.878-billion (around Rs 59,000 crore) deal. The French will also guarantee performance-based logistics support which means that 75% of the fleet will be airworthy at any given time. IAF will also get free training for nine personnel, including three pilots, estimated to be worth €100 million. The IAF will get an additional guarantee for an additional 60 flight-hours for the trainer version of Rafale, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge. The French have also agreed to supply spares for a period of 7 years at initial cost, instead of five years, with an option that a new deal will be negotiated for the next five years. The standard European escalation cost has also been brought down from 4% to 3.5%.


The cost looks higher because it includes the cost of spares, support, training, infrastructure. The flyaway cost of the Rafale which India got comes to arround 85 Million a piece, now Please tell me the price of the F16 Block 52 which PAF got, without subsidy.

I stand corrected. A new deal with new set of prices and there is no guarantee if Next government is of Congress and they once again put a stop to deal because of escalating Prices. So there is no guarantee as of now, Next batch would be procured in future.

 

[randomradio]

Rafael orders are coming in small batches,

The plan is to make the next 90 jets in India.

Cost of production will not go down because Dassault has to maintain the break-even and with the re-investment of money back into India, How Dassault is going to profit from this overall if they are going to sell you the next batch in less price than this deal ?

For any new orders from French factories, it will be at the same price as the first 36 + up to 3.5% cost escalation per year. That's how the IGA is.

For Indian made Rafales, it could be cheaper if you leverage lower Indian costs of production. Most likely, IAF may not order more than 36 or possibly another 18 jets from France, the rest of their requirement will be made in India.

What is the guarantee BJP will remain by 2021-2022 and what if next government put a stop to more rafaels because of increasing prices of rafael then

That's not possible. Only corruption can stop the deal. IAF can keep ordering as many jets as they want as long as the budget is available, the govt can't stop the IAF.

And escalation will be 3.5%, that's acceptable to any govt. Su-30 escalation is more than 5% and it will comfortably survive 2 decades worth of production through multiple govts.

 

[zebra7]

How so customization is one time cost ? Is there a clause in deal which says if india goes for the next batch of Rafael, You dont have to pay for the India specific customization once again or a clause which says India patent those customization and will profit from it if France sells rafael with india specific customization to another country similar to What UAE F-16 deal where UAE will get profit if Block 60 gets sold to another country ?




I stand corrected. A new deal with new set of prices and there is no guarantee if Next government is of Congress and they once again put a stop to deal because of escalating Prices. So there is no guarantee as of now, Next batch would be procured in future.

There is 3 more years for the next election. Common sir, its actually 36 + 18 = 54, the other 18 will be announced soon, may be in this year as the follow up order. To setup the plant for the production of Rafale under MIL and make in India, you need atleast 2 years, and additional one year for the neggotiation of the Dassault with the OEMs of its own choosing. So what is the problem here, everything is going with the plan. 3 years you need to setting up the plant, training the workers and enginners and build the supply chain in India, till the time, when Rafale will start ariving in India as flyaway condition and make in France. IAF too needs to build the infrastucture, procure the maintainance equipments, training of staffs etc, and make the stratergies and doctorine around this new bird.

 

[nadeemkhan110]

NEW DELHI: It's finally jet, set and go for the IAF after an agonising wait of 16 years since it first demanded new multi-role fighters. India and France on Friday inked a 7.87 billion euro deal for 36 Rafale fighters, which with their state of the art 150-km range Meteor air-to-air missiles will have a clear combat edge over Pakistan's F-16 jets.



India will get the first Rafale in three years, with all 36 touching down by early-2022. Till then, in the event of a conflict, India will have to deploy two Sukhoi-30MKIs to tackle each Pakistani F-16 due to the latter's superior weapons package, including 80-km range missiles. But once the Rafales are inducted, Pakistan will have to deploy two F-16s for each of them.

Simplistic analogies apart, the Rafale will certainly be a potent force-multiplier for the IAF, capable as it is of also delivering nuclear weapons. The inter-governmental agreement (IGA), inked by defence minister Manohar Parrikar and his French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian here in South Block, does not put any restriction on the fighter being used as a "strategic platform", said sources.

Parrikar himself was quite gung-ho about the deal. "Rafale is a very potent fighter that will add to the IAF's airpower and deep-strike capabilities," he said. Le Drian added, "The Rafale is really the best fighter jet in the world. It is an omni-role aircraft capable of all kinds of missions."French aircraft manufacturer Dassault Aviation's CEO Eric Trappier said the Rafale was more in competition with the American F-35 fifth-generation fighter because it was "a generation ahead" of the F-16. But the Rafales do cost a packet. The fighters themselves may cost around Rs 700 crore a piece. But the per unit cost zooms to Rs 1,640 crore if the overall deal is taken into account, which includes a decidedly deadly weapons package, all spares and costs for 75% fleet availability and "performance-based logistics support" for five years.

Moreover, the Rafales will be tweaked to specific Indian requirements, which range from the capability for "cold start at high-altitude regions like Leh" to Israeli helmet-mounted displays, advanced missile warning and synthetic aperture radars.

Government sources said India had saved+ through some hardnosed bargaining over the original MMRCA (medium multi role combat aircraft) project be ing negotiated by the previous UPA regime. Moreover, the Rafales will come with much better weapons and maintenance support packages now.

"The Meteor missile is superior to any such missile in the region. The over 300km Scalp air-to ground cruise missile also has two-metre precision capability. Rafale also has a faster turnaround time, capable of undertaking five sorties in a day. The other fighters we have can do only three sorties at the most," said a source.

The Rafale deal also has a 50% offsets clause, under which France will have to plough half of the actual contract value back into India. "This has huge potential to generate direct and indirect employment opportunities in India," he added.Induction of the Rafales will certainly be a strong booster dose for the IAF.

Courtesy TOI

Source: http://nation.com.pk/international/...n-air-force-combat-edge-over-pakistan-s-f-16s

 

[PARIKRAMA]

@PARIKRAMA Is there follow on purchase clause in the deal or If India goes for further batch, you have to negotiate the deal once again with new set of prices ?

http://www.janes.com/article/64054/india-finally-signs-deal-with-france-for-36-rafale-fighters

 

[majid mehmood]

guys its a bad news for both countries
India - by the time rafale takes to arrive in India it would take at least 2 yrs for 1 batch (around 12 planes ) bcz Egypt has not received all yet in 4 yrs so by 2018-20 India might get fgfa and pak might get hands on j10 or j11 or even su35 bcz of this signing
Pakistan- as rafale has a huge weapon load plus its rcs is 1.5 -2 m2 when fully loaded or .5-1 m2 with a2a so untill pak buys a good radar system ie. SAM system such as s300 or better or else rafale will totally win
rafale dog fighting, avionics capabilities are so dangerous to paf that no paf plane even if we buy j10b it does not stand a chance against rafale
so for Pakistan to counter the Rafale effect it should buy s300 or better in huge numbers around 30-50
and for a2a fight it should buy j11b (which has aesa) or su35 only then pak can nicely beat India in its so called multi-billon programs

 

[Bratva]

The plan is to make the next 90 jets in India.



For any new orders from French factories, it will be at the same price as the first 36 + up to 3.5% cost escalation per year. That's how the IGA is.

For Indian made Rafales, it could be cheaper if you leverage lower Indian costs of production. Most likely, IAF may not order more than 36 or possibly another 18 jets from France, the rest of their requirement will be made in India.



That's not possible. Only corruption can stop the deal. IAF can keep ordering as many jets as they want as long as the budget is available, the govt can't stop the IAF.

And escalation will be 3.5%, that's acceptable to any govt. Su-30 escalation is more than 5% and it will comfortably survive 2 decades worth of production through multiple govts.

At this point, these are all conjectures, suppositions, guesswork. The plan is to make 90. Another supposition. Is it written down on piece of paper somewhere ? No. Initial deal of 21 billion was scrapped because of the price. If purchasing next 90 and the cost still remain 21-22 billion due to future price escalations, what was the benefit of scrapping initial deal? This variable will weigh heavily on the mind of planners before purchasing any new rafael


Is it included in the deal that any new orders of rafael will be tied up with 3.5 percent cost escalation ? Because I have read clearly what zebra has posted. The cost escalation is for the current deal. For the new deal the negotiations has to occur once again. So cost escalation will be decided anew for the new negotiations.

Remind me with MKI Examples, Does Building MKI reduced the overall prices of MKI or did Russia charged you more for building MKI in india ? So how are you assuming French in their new negotiations would not escalate price further for this make in india thing ?

 

[zebra7]

Some only 36 bought platforms and missile can't cause big threat. We will produce hundreds of J11D and J20 to deal it with PL15 ramjet missile. No matter how India try, they are overwhelmed. No need to worry, stay calm. They can't afford the expensive toy in a full scale war, can't fix it, can't produce it.

We don't have half the Dozen nation on the west supported by a Global Superpower, and its powerful navy and a sea with disputes with most of the countries. And heck we are behind in creating the artifical island in any ocean.

 

[randomradio]

How so customization is one time cost ? Is there a clause in deal which says if india goes for the next batch of Rafael, You dont have to pay for the India specific customization once again or a clause which says India patent those customization and will profit from it if France sells rafael with india specific customization to another country similar to What UAE F-16 deal where UAE will get profit if Block 60 gets sold to another country ?

There are 14 India specific technologies added into the Rafale. And those are integration costs. So it's one time payment.

You integrate a specific piece of technology only once. Like the Israeli HMD, you integrate it, then you test it, and you're done. All following Rafales can be built for this HMD, India doesn't have to pay the integration costs again.

Similarly, the Rafale has to be integrated with the Astra missile only once.

So that 2B for integration of India specific technology is spread across the whole fleet.

 

[zebra7]

At this point, these are all conjectures, suppositions, guesswork. The plan is to make 90. Another supposition. Is it written down on piece of paper somewhere ? No. Initial deal of 21 billion was scrapped because of the price. If purchasing next 90 and the cost still remain 21-22 billion due to future price escalations, what was the benefit of scrapping initial deal? This variable will weigh heavily on the mind of planners before purchasing any new rafael


Is it included in the deal that any new orders of rafael will be tied up with 3.5 percent cost escalation ? Because I have read clearly what zebra has posted. The cost escalation is for the current deal. For the new deal the negotiations has to occur once again. So cost escalation will be decided anew for the new negotiations.

Remind me with MKI Examples, Does Building MKI reduced the overall prices of MKI or did Russia charged you more for building MKI in india ? So how are you assuming French in their new negotiations would not escalate price further for this make in india thing ?

The price escallation is always their, but to order more follow ups you don't have make another deal and negotiation, rather a follow up Order. I agree with you, that if you are ordering in the batches, no one can tell the price of the product after 10 years or 5 years because that will depend on various factors such as price escallations, exchange price variations, new upgradation etc.

But sir, ordering in batches will also give the advantage of taking the advanced or upgraded version which will be available after some time.

 

[Bratva]

There are 14 India specific technologies added into the Rafale. And those are integration costs. So it's one time payment.

You integrate a specific piece of technology only once. Like the Israeli HMD, you integrate it, then you test it, and you're done. All following Rafales can be built for this HMD, India doesn't have to pay the integration costs again.

Similarly, the Rafale has to be integrated with the Astra missile only once.

So that 2B for integration of India specific technology is spread across the whole fleet.

you are getting confused and ignoring the finer details in b/w the lines. France is not going to share the integration process with you guys. Second, they are integrating it for the whole fleet which is 36 Rafael only. This integration cost is only tied up to this deal.

So the next batch would be treated as a separate deal which means separate cost of integration. So without India knowing how to integrate India specific customization onto next batch, how come this cost becomes one time payment ?

If it is not specifically mentioned in the deal that same things negotiated in this deal will be extended to next deal , dont assume it will be done free of cost for the next batch of rafaels Dassault wants to earn money, They are not in the business of giving freebies

 

[zebra7]

Remind me with MKI Examples, Does Building MKI reduced the overall prices of MKI or did Russia charged you more for building MKI in india ? So how are you assuming French in their new negotiations would not escalate price further for this make in india thing ?

A good question, but MKI is rather different story, actually make in India MKI is costly than flyaway MKI, due to various factors, but India choose the costly way, to increase the capapabilty building for the state owned OEM named HAL. Thus the order is been given to the HAL by IAF, and HAL had the deal with the Sukhoi who is paying the license fees per aircraft plus the Raw material procured from the russian company or some other country, which is whatever their deal is.

Rafale on the otherhand will be supplying India, the Rafale, and will take the advantage of Make in India and would partner with the OEMs of the Dassault choosing, so it would be the Dassault and that OEMs partnership's headache to deal with lowering the price, not the GOI or IAF.

 

[randomradio]

At this point, these are all conjectures, suppositions, guesswork. The plan is to make 90. Another supposition. Is it written down on piece of paper somewhere ? No.

We believe the IGA carries details for 180 jets. Not counting the IN orders. It is written down in a piece of paper.

http://indianexpress.com/article/in...ench-president-hollande-ahead-of-india-visit/

French President Francois Hollande on Sunday affirmed that the Rs 60,000 crore Rafale fighter jets deal with India was “on the right track” and that it would pave the way for an unprecedented industrial and technological bilateral cooperation for the next 40 years.

Hollande wouldn't have called it an unprecedented cooperation for 40 years if we were just buying 36 jets.

The French wouldn't give us French prices and 50% offsets for just 36 jets. That's a huge loss for them.

Initial deal of 21 billion was scrapped because of the price. If purchasing next 90 and the cost still remain 21-22 billion due to future price escalations, what was the benefit of scrapping initial deal? This variable will weigh heavily on the mind of planners before purchasing any new rafael

The MMRCA deal was $14.5B based on flyaway costs. I had posted earlier the reasons for cancellation.

Here-
https://defence.pk/threads/the-indi...celebrate-opinion.451004/page-15#post-8724184

Is it included in the deal that any new orders of rafael will be tied up with 3.5 percent cost escalation ? Because I have read clearly what zebra has posted. The cost escalation is for the current deal. For the new deal the negotiations has to occur once again. So cost escalation will be decided anew for the new negotiations.

It will be the same. Airbus deals with India are the same as well.

Remind me with MKI Examples, Does Building MKI reduced the overall prices of MKI or did Russia charged you more for building MKI in india ? So how are you assuming French in their new negotiations would not escalate price further for this make in india thing ?

We paid $22M each for the MKIs in 2000. And then we paid $40M for the 42 MKIs ordered in 2012. That's a 5% escalation per year, as mentioned in the Indo-Russian IGA for the MKI.

 

[Bratva]

The price escallation is always their, but to order more follow ups you don't have make another deal and negotiation, rather a follow up Order. I agree with you, that if you are ordering in the batches, no one can tell the price of the product after 10 years or 5 years because that will depend on various factors such as price escallations, exchange price variations, new upgradation etc.

But sir, ordering in batches will also give the advantage of taking the advanced or upgraded version which will be available after some time.

Read up Parikrama post above, The follow up order and all the clauses of current deal will remain almost constant to next 18 supplementary fighters only. Beyond that, you have to go through the hellish cycle of negotiations once again with new set of prices. New set of prices mean making Future indian government of that time squeamish again.

 

[Wet Shirt Contest]

Tht deal of 8 block 52s F-16is dead, right? Because we wanted on subsidized rates and they didnt offer us that and we didnt want to pay full price...
So do PAF have any plans to buy new F16 block 52 or not? Or we will go for mlu ed F 16s from any other country?

What abt those rumors of PAF wanting to go for 40 more high tech jets, whether Su35 or EFT, or some other.... which came few months ago? Do those rumors have any substance in them...or they were just rumors only?

In midst of deteriorating relationship with USA i don't think PAF is getting any new blk52 nor we have funds for that, the focus is on PN, Jf17 and its blocks will fill up full spectrum requirements until we get our hands on next generation platforms (post 2025 at earliest). have a goodday

There is a follow on option, but it's not clear yet. A very reliable source says the option has converted to a 18 jet deal for the IN.

The IN is interested in 54 jets. And the IAC-2 won't have enough jets. There was a plan to buy another 45 Mig-29Ks, but that's obviously been shelved for Rafales.

Mig29K also suffered from extremely low serviceability rate in IN. is that fixed now ?