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The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

Thankfully air combat is no longer as stratified where an aircraft's weight or range are decisive aspects in all scenarios.

Yes, the Rafale is a threat, but the key to addressing that threat rests more in acquiring specific technologies and subsystems than any particular fighter platform. In fact, one inducts a new fighter platform to introduce new technology; but the democratization or direct accessibility of that technology has made that a less frequent need.

For example, the "natural" counter to the Rafale would be the Typhoon, but why? Well, one would point to the radar, electronic warfare/countermeasures, munitions compatibility, etc.

Pakistan currently can't bankroll the Typhoon (not without a third party to extend a loan or line-of-credit anyways), so it'll need to pull the valuable technology and plug it into the JF-17 via the Block-III.

The JF-17 Block-III - which is to have an AESA radar, HMD/S, updated ECM/EW, and next-gen munitions - is not going to be superior to the Rafale, but it can be a threat.

For example, a solid ECM/EW suite would enable the JF-17 Block-III to have a credible shot at jamming an incoming BVRAAM. Yes, the Meteor is a beast of a missile, but layers of jamming - i.e. stand-off jamming from a pod, jamming from an integrated suite, and perhaps even jamming from a BriteCloud-like decoy, and then chaffs, add to the chances of a Meteor failing.

If the AESA radar on the JF-17 is relatively good - i.e. boasting a lot of range relative to the fighter platform - then a next-gen munition in the same general league as the Meteor can give the Rafale a run. Of course, the same layers of jamming on the Rafale would negate our missiles too. And then you're in a dogfight scenario, and again, HMD/S and HOBS AAM are the essential parts.

This doesn't entirely alleviate the value of another fighter platform.

A big fighter such as the Su-35 can house a relatively high output radar, perhaps in excess of 250km (or higher on older less power-hungry radar tech). If there were 2 Su-35s covering a flight of 6 JF-17 Block-IIIs, then those Su-35s can serve as not only top long-range cover (i.e. by locking and firing on Rafales and Su-30MKIs earlier on, alleviating pressure off the Thunders), but maybe even as a quasi-AEW whereby their radar feed can be fed to the Thunder.

But this is less of an essential aspect than actually having a high-tech mainstay fighter - i.e. Block-III - and the accompanying next-gen munitions. The subsystems for the Thunder and next-gen munitions ought to take priority above any off-the-shelf purchase, IMHO.

A good post after so much time, and consider your positive rating as 22, since I can't give you sorry no authority :P Bhai logo why wasting our bandwidth so much, first give a thought, and write only after some study and thought like this and good writeups.
 
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A good post after so much time, and consider your positive rating as 22, since I can't give you sorry no authority :P Bhai logo why wasting our bandwidth so much, first give a thought, and write only after some study and thought like this and good writeups.

first of all what do you mean "our" bandwidth, you're a guest on this forum......and i'm probably older than you are so dont patronize me or give me advice. Lastly you can thank Bilal Khan for the inputs, he's the most knowledgeable on this subject. If only Sir Kaiser Tufail were on this forum too.
 
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first of all what do you mean "our" bandwidth, you're a guest on this forum......and i'm probably already than you are so dont patronize me or give me advice. Lastly you can thank Bilal Khan for the inputs, he's the most knowledgeable on this subject. If only Sir Kaiser Tufail were on this forum too.

he was actually praising your article and saying people should write like what you have. It was a compliment.
 
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IAF should at least forget about dealing with PLAAF. PLAAF in next decade would be a force capable of muscling USAF. IAF wouldn't have the ability to challenge PLAAF. To stretch IAF further China would simply sell some more goodies to PAF to up the ante. Keep one thing cystal clear, PAF doesn't need to strike deep in India and India can not risk placing all of her assets on her western border. All PAF will aim to achieve is to paralyze the indian FOBs and target targets near Dehli. For more deeper strikes, Missiles will be used not the PAF. War is not a video game

IAF in the present form can take on PLAAF, India has only two fronts to take care of. China has many. Till now PLAAF havent field a technologically superior fighter than Aircraft in IAF inventory. Yeah Plaaf has the numerical superiority, but also they have many fronts to care about. To be honest IAF can field the entire Sukhoi fleet in defence against PLAAF leaving Migs & Mirages to defend western front. You are right , war is not a game.
Till the day PLAAF inducts J20 & J31 in considerable numbers, & PAKFA is not inducted by then, and only then IAF should be worried.

I am more worried about PLA, they have progressed far beyong IA at the moment both numerically & technologically. :coffee:
 
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Probably a saner Choice. Indians have always been dismal at "Make in India" but would that be a sane thing to keep delaying the procurement if this dream is not going to be realized?
Just to let you know. There is 50% offsets in the deal.
That means 50% of the contract value will be ploughed back into the Indian economy.

Also, in the offsets, it has been understood that it will involve production and specifically export of components from India for the Rafale globally.
 
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Indian su30mki I's very large now over 250 fighters. And with upgrades starting to super Mki already it's a formidable opponent
 
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Moreover as far as JF-17 Block 3 is concerned it was never intended to counter Rafale. It is important that we must give JF-17 as much legs as possible so that in any future confrontation even if JF-17 does not out performs the rival it must give them a run for their money.
I everything goes as planned block 3 of thunder would have AESA, HMD, HOBS missiles and further reduced RCS due to increased composites. So hopefully JFT Blk 3 would be one pain in the *** for our adversaries.
 
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Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.


Good post!

The Rafale Acquisition Scandal: A Potential Threat to France-India Defense Relations
The tortuous Rafale acquisition saga has put a dent in an otherwise robust defense relationship.

India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition for 126 aircraft, won by France’s Dassault Rafale, was initiated by the erstwhile United Progressive Alliance (UPA) government in August 2007. The reason for the MMRCA bid was two-fold: addressing the fast decaying critical operations capacity of the Indian Air Force and simplifying the logistics of the tip in the “tip-of-the-spear” strategy.

The Indian Air Force (IAF) currently has a combat strength of 34 squadrons, of which only 31 are effectively combat ready. That leaves the IAF 11 squadrons short of the minimum 42 required to fight a two-front war against Pakistan and China. Meanwhile, the “tip-of-the-spear” strategy relies on advanced fighter and multi-role combat aircraft from Britain (the SEPECAT Jaguar), France (the Dassault Mirage 2000), and the USSR/Russia (the Mig-29 and the Mig-27) to carry out nuclear strikes and deep penetration of enemy airspace. The bulk of the IAF consists of 245 USSR/Russian made Mig-21s and 240 newer Russian Su-30MKIs. The strategy, therefore, creates major hurdles to sourcing spares and upgrading aircraft: India relies on a mélange of suppliers, from Russia and former Soviet republics to France, Britain, Israel, and the United States.

Aside from the MMRCA competition, India has responded to both these problems in an ad hoc fashion. India is undertaking major initiatives to modernize its air force that go beyond acquisition of new fighter jets. These steps include upgrading avionics, engines, and missiles on many of its fighter jets. The Mig-21 and 27 aircraft are being phased out in favor of the indigenously manufactured HAL Tejas. India is even considering procuring single engine jets to make up for the deficit at a lower cost.

The MMRCA competition formally commenced in 2011, with India issuing requests for information to the French company Dassault (for the Mirage 2000), America’s Lockheed Martin (for the F-16 C/D), Russia’s Mikoyan (for the Mig-29OVT), and Sweden’s Saab (for the JAS 39 Gripen). Subsequently, Dassault replaced the Mirage 2000 with the Rafale, and Russia replaced the Mig-29 with the Mig-35, while another American company, Boeing, offered the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. The Rafale won the estimated $11-15 billion deal in 2012, and agreed to supply India with 126 aircraft, with 18 being delivered in “fly-away condition” and 108 manufactured in India.

However, on April 10, 2015, Prime Minister Narendra Modi announced the purchase of 36 Rafale aircraft in “fly-away condition” for $8.7 billion, instead of the aforementioned 126 fighters. Questions have been raised by the media and the political opposition regarding the cost of Modi’s 2015 deal compared to earlier one. The government argued that Dassault’s efforts to hike prices and its inability to stand guarantee to the 108 jetsproduced in India, in collaboration with the publicly owned Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, were key in scrapping the deal.

In terms of cost-accounting, some observers have critiqued the criteria used by the Indian Air Force to evaluate competing bids and the 30 year “life cycle” cost accounting method used by India. The cost of the 126 aircraft, including the 18 “fly-away condition” ones, appeared to have been $20 billion as opposed to the original $8 billion earmarked for the acquisition.

The cost-overrun was allegedly caused by the listing of more than 50-60 unpriced items as “miscellaneous,” which is ironically similar to the issue India faced with the 2005 acquisition deal for the French Scorpene submarine, currently being manufactured at the Mazagaon Docks. The Scorpene deal was also subject to allegations of kickbacks involving Abhishek Verma and senior members of the UPA administration, which were recently dismissed by the Delhi High Court due to insufficient evidence.

The uncertainty regarding the Rafale deal, however, threatens a broad and reliable France-India defense relationship. In terms of the Air Force and India’s nuclear capacity, the French Mirage 2000 provides India’s primary air-launched strike force, because the British SEPECAT Jaguars are slower at high altitudes and unable to deploy the unguided (gravity dropped) nuclear bombs used by India. The Kargil War of 1999 reaffirmed the capacities of the Mirage 2000-5 in ground attacks as well. However, Indian trepidation about corruption allegations prevented it from shifting the entire production facility, which France was shutting down, to India. Ironically, France has recently offered to donate 31 mothballed Jaguars, which India could upgrade with new radars, avionics, and even engines.

French weapons manufacturers also collaborate with private Indian companies and France has agreed to transfer the required technology. The French corporation Thales, which manufactures the Scorpene, reached an agreement in March 2016 with Reliance Defence Ltd., led by Anil Ambani, to make sonars for surface ships and submarines. Furthermore, a joint venture of Reliance Aerospace and Dassault Aviation — Dassault-Reliance Aeropace Ltd. — was inaugurated in October 2016 in order to manufacture radar and electronic warfare sensors for the 36 Rafale aircraft and become part of the global supply chain of Dassault’s civilian jet, the Legacy Falcon 2000 series.

The recently declared interest of Mukesh Ambani, who captains Reliance’s energy sector undertakings, in entering the defense sector, however, has also cast a shadow on the private sector aspects of France-India defense collaboration. Reliance’s interest in working with Russian energy conglomerates is problematic; Russia is one of the losing bidders for the MMRCA competition and continues to be interested in substituting the Su30-MKI for the Rafale.

Vasabjit Banerjee is an assistant professor of political science at Mississippi State University. His primary research interests are contentious politics and the local political-economies of state-formation in developing societies; specifically South Asia, Latin America, and Southern Africa.

Prashant Hosur is a doctoral candidate at Indiana University whose research focuses on International Relations and Comparative Politics, with a regional focus on South Asia.
 
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