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The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

LOL, Did your account have been hacked, just curious

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Nilgiri @hellboy @Omega007

Before answering your post lets see what does this deal means

Negotiations over the past 17 months have yielded more advantages to the Indian side over the MMRCA deal. The French had made an opening offer of €12 billion in May 2015 when the negotiations began. The French offer came down to €8.6 billion on the midnight of 25-26 January, 2016 when French President François Hollande was in India as a chief guest for the Republic Day celebrations. But the Indian side wanted the price to be reduced further. It was in May 2016 that the two sides finally agreed at a price of €7.878 billion.. Prime Minister Modi had confirmed in Paris in April 2015 that India would buy 36 Rafales, all built in France. The Rafales will have 14 India-specific enhancements and MBDA-built 150km-range Meteor air-to-air missiles & Scalp-EG cruise missiles as part of the €7.878-billion (around Rs 59,000 crore) deal. The French will also guarantee performance-based logistics support which means that 75% of the fleet will be airworthy at any given time. IAF will also get free training for nine personnel, including three pilots, estimated to be worth €100 million. The IAF will get an additional guarantee for an additional 60 flight-hours for the trainer version of Rafale, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge. The French have also agreed to supply spares for a period of 7 years at initial cost, instead of five years, with an option that a new deal will be negotiated for the next five years. The standard European escalation cost has also been brought down from 4% to 3.5%.

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Mig-21s of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

This is hilarious, When did anyone from the India, and the RM or GOI official said that those rafales are for the replacement of the MIG-21. Here is the actual requirement, which is the long range DPSA requirement, which IAF needed for which it needed twin engine, long range, and high load carrying capability, which Rafale have period. For the replacement of MIG-21, we needed a single engine combat plane which LCA/LMCA Tejas Mk-1 qualifies and could use the infrastructure and shelters builts for the Mig-21. MIG-21 would be phased out till 2024, and presently providing the role of Interceptor/point defence --(Mig-21 Bison), CAS role, which other Mig-21 provides and MIG-21 UB which is twin seater variants for the training purpose. Read it slowly, and understand the roles and the requirement.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The cost through life of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

Notorious expensive, well tell me the cost of the F-16 block 60/62 or the EF-2000 cost. The cost of Rafale F3R which India is now procuring is coming approx 85 million a piece for flyaway condition. The highter cost indicates that the cost shown was with the spares support for 5/7 years, and the infrastructure cost plus the weaponary including long range Meteors.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

This is also a funny remark, because it is based on an assumption that the adversaries will absorb the plane with inherited training and tactics. Janab it will take years for IAF to absorb, train, and make strategies around it, and the same formulla will also be applied for the so called adversaries.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

Why would it so ?? When the role of both the planes are different. The cost factor which is almost thrice the cost of the LCA is a big factor, and both of them will be complimentary to each other. IAF need for Rafale is only 189 unit, and those will be ordered in batches, and IAF have already given the order for 126 LCA mk-1 with SOP-18 standard, and IN is already commited for the 40 units for the carrier version. There is also a huge requirement for the LCA trainer twin seater of MK-1 LCA. As you can see there are enough orders so where are you specullating the internal battle. Infact Rafale F3R would help India, in gaining various cutting edge technology because their are arround 20 technology which will be transfered to India, and the details will come latter. Pls visit Rafale sticky thread for more information.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

How ?? 36 +18 units of Rafale is the initial batch which will be taken in flyaway condition, till the Dassault could ties up with the Indian OEM to prepare the ground, and the capability in the country to produce it in India first with kits, and then increase the production percentage wise.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

LOL, close the door -- How ?? When IAF have choosen Rafale over Eurofighter because it suits more for their requirement, then how did it is corelated to closing the door for Eurofighter.


G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

Now are you referring to the french side of politics, because if you are referring to Indian approach, its not very difficult to understand that both GOI and IAF have long zeroed on Rafale.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

Do you have any authority to comment on the so called big bribes to the French, with zero credential and proof. If you have any proof please share otherwise its just a scarcism, and the jealousy. Rafale was choosen with an extensive trial and competition among 5 OEMs and aircraft, and every OEM have praised the manner India and IAF conducted the trial in a opaque manner. Each test result was shown, verified with the OEM's presence and signed by them in which only EF and Rafale came first, and EF was beaten by Rafale on the basis of economics.



This was very disappointing post of yours which I have read of you, kindly check the quality of your post, because I have great regard for you.
 
Very shallow analysis. Especially the point c where it would be neutralized, without anything happening like this in the horizon, this point being said reeks of a fan boy and not of a rational mind. Would have been better to read the Rafale sticky thread to have a better idea.
 
LOL, Did your account have been hacked, just curious

@PARIKRAMA @Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Nilgiri @hellboy @Omega007

Before answering your post lets see what does this deal means

Negotiations over the past 17 months have yielded more advantages to the Indian side over the MMRCA deal. The French had made an opening offer of €12 billion in May 2015 when the negotiations began. The French offer came down to €8.6 billion on the midnight of 25-26 January, 2016 when French President François Hollande was in India as a chief guest for the Republic Day celebrations. But the Indian side wanted the price to be reduced further. It was in May 2016 that the two sides finally agreed at a price of €7.878 billion.. Prime Minister Modi had confirmed in Paris in April 2015 that India would buy 36 Rafales, all built in France. The Rafales will have 14 India-specific enhancements and MBDA-built 150km-range Meteor air-to-air missiles & Scalp-EG cruise missiles as part of the €7.878-billion (around Rs 59,000 crore) deal. The French will also guarantee performance-based logistics support which means that 75% of the fleet will be airworthy at any given time. IAF will also get free training for nine personnel, including three pilots, estimated to be worth €100 million. The IAF will get an additional guarantee for an additional 60 flight-hours for the trainer version of Rafale, and a concession to keep the weapons storage in France for an additional six months without any charge. The French have also agreed to supply spares for a period of 7 years at initial cost, instead of five years, with an option that a new deal will be negotiated for the next five years. The standard European escalation cost has also been brought down from 4% to 3.5%.



This is hilarious, When did anyone from the India, and the RM or GOI official said that those rafales are for the replacement of the MIG-21. Here is the actual requirement, which is the long range DPSA requirement, which IAF needed for which it needed twin engine, long range, and high load carrying capability, which Rafale have period. For the replacement of MIG-21, we needed a single engine combat plane which LCA/LMCA Tejas Mk-1 qualifies and could use the infrastructure and shelters builts for the Mig-21. MIG-21 would be phased out till 2024, and presently providing the role of Interceptor/point defence --(Mig-21 Bison), CAS role, which other Mig-21 provides and MIG-21 UB which is twin seater variants for the training purpose. Read it slowly, and understand the roles and the requirement.



Notorious expensive, well tell me the cost of the F-16 block 60/62 or the EF-2000 cost. The cost of Rafale F3R which India is now procuring is coming approx 85 million a piece for flyaway condition. The highter cost indicates that the cost shown was with the spares support for 5/7 years, and the infrastructure cost plus the weaponary including long range Meteors.



This is also a funny remark, because it is based on an assumption that the adversaries will absorb the plane with inherited training and tactics. Janab it will take years for IAF to absorb, train, and make strategies around it, and the same formulla will also be applied for the so called adversaries.



Why would it so ?? When the role of both the planes are different. The cost factor which is almost thrice the cost of the LCA is a big factor, and both of them will be complimentary to each other. IAF need for Rafale is only 189 unit, and those will be ordered in batches, and IAF have already given the order for 126 LCA mk-1 with SOP-18 standard, and IN is already commited for the 40 units for the carrier version. There is also a huge requirement for the LCA trainer twin seater of MK-1 LCA. As you can see there are enough orders so where are you specullating the internal battle. Infact Rafale F3R would help India, in gaining various cutting edge technology because their are arround 20 technology which will be transfered to India, and the details will come latter. Pls visit Rafale sticky thread for more information.



How ?? 36 +18 units of Rafale is the initial batch which will be taken in flyaway condition, till the Dassault could ties up with the Indian OEM to prepare the ground, and the capability in the country to produce it in India first with kits, and then increase the production percentage wise.



LOL, close the door -- How ?? When IAF have choosen Rafale over Eurofighter because it suits more for their requirement, then how did it is corelated to closing the door for Eurofighter.




Now are you referring to the french side of politics, because if you are referring to Indian approach, its not very difficult to understand that both GOI and IAF have long zeroed on Rafale.



Do you have any authority to comment on the so called big bribes to the French, with zero credential and proof. If you have any proof please share otherwise its just a scarcism, and the jealousy. Rafale was choosen with an extensive trial and competition among 5 OEMs and aircraft, and every OEM have praised the manner India and IAF conducted the trial in a opaque manner. Each test result was shown, verified with the OEM's presence and signed by them in which only EF and Rafale came first, and EF was beaten by Rafale on the basis of economics.



This was very disappointing post of yours which I have read of you, kindly check the quality of your post, because I have great regard for you.

It is an opinion post. You can take it apart as you like.
 
A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

The Remaining Aircraft will be MADE in India

Dassault will create a company which will be controlled by them in Partnership with
Indian Private sector companies such as TATA or RELIANCE or L & T

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

IAF has carried out extensive calculations about Life Cycle costs

The costs are in LINE with the Enhanced Capabilities -- The Best amongst
the Three rival forces namely IAF ; PLAAF and PAF
 
Very shallow analysis. Especially the point c where it would be neutralized, without anything happening like this in the horizon, this point being said reeks of a fan boy and not of a rational mind. Would have been better to read the Rafale sticky thread to have a better idea.

Its opinion. There is a difference.
 
So ifs its not meant to replace MiG-21, which aircraft will replace MiG-21? Tejas? Its not even operational yet.
 
C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

That is exactly the idea ; Rafale will ensure that IAF remains AHEAD of the Curve
for very long time -- Given that J 20 is TEN full years away from being Fully Operational

Russia PAK FA / FGFA is the Next Acquisition planned by IAF
In order to retain our technological edge

As on Today Rafale is the Third Best plane after F 22 and F 35
 
A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Mig-21s of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.
mig 27*s
B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.
6 times.. hmm...so american jets must b very cheap to operate?
any source to back up your claim
C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.
so it will take time to realize capabilities for india, but no time will b taken to realize capabilities of competitive procurement in the region?
so what u imply is india will take years to perfect themselves with rafale but pakistan will buy an aircraft and suddenly lean and reach it full potential
D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.
decrease in no of rafales had many reasons one of them was to keep tejas alive
seriously if u are a professional this is a kiddish point

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.
how killing make in india will b reason for pakistan to celebrate should u celebrate your own achievements
and acc to u make in india had only one step ? make rafale?
btw rafale deal existed long before make in india
F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.
as u said (The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary) hope those other countries will find typhoon cheaper :cheesy::cheesy:
G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.
ok :( our lame duck move gave u 8 points to celebrate..who would have thought indian defence ministry was not smart enough to calculate 8 points u wrote:(
H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.
and u figured it out:lol::lol::lol::enjoy::enjoy::enjoy:

@PARIKRAMA @Nilgiri @Abingdonboy @Cherokee @Omega007
check this out we got a professional over here
 
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Just one question..how will PAF counter meteor and spectra combo?
Meteor cant be countered by any AAM in PAF inventory now or in foreseeable future.as far as i see it unless americans gave their latest AIM-120D which just entered production.
 
D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

There will be NO compromise with Tejas

On the Other hand we will benefit from French CONSULTANCY and advisory services
for our Tejas Mk 2 ; Naval Tejas and KAVERI engine programme
 
Countdown to india crashing first Raphael is on

All bets are being taken

The Raphael is a dangerous aircraft but like the O.P i have a feeling the regret for india will be enormous
 
E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

The PART TWO of the Rafale Deal is ALL about Make in India

Since the earlier MMRCA programme had become too complex and unworkable
we have worked out an even better arrangement with regard to the Make in India objective

We lost Two years but it is still worth it
 

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