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The Indian Rafale: Why Pakistan Should Celebrate! -Opinion (ALL Rafale posts here please)

Just one question..how will PAF counter meteor and spectra combo?
Meteor cant be countered by any AAM in PAF inventory now or in foreseeable future.as far as i see it unless americans gave their latest AIM-120D which just entered production.


They will say Chinese PL-15, because every weapon in Chinese inventory, is automatically theirs and every Chinese weapons are ready to Rock and Roll, without passing all the test, and induction.
 
F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

That is none of our Business

In fact our Understanding is that Working with Four Countries is far more difficult

If our Rivals CAN buy Eurofighter ; they should go for it

But we are aware of the Practical limitations that PAF and PLAAF face in case they
wish they to buy the Eurofighter
 
Article is full of errors and try hard to have a 'feel good'.
A. India has a mix of 120 Mig-21s and 80 Mig-27s to replace in coming years...Options are 36 Rafale+ 120 Tejas( mk1+ mk1A)+ 90 Other fighters under consideration for Make in India( Rafale is a candidate too).
B. French systems are expensive, no doubt there but then Its worth it.
C. Only if you think that India will be sitting idle after this deal....after this we have Super sukhoi upgrades, 90 other fighters under MII, FGFA, Tejas and so on programs to follow.
D. Apples and Oranges....Rafale is a medium class jet and Tejas is there to fill gap of a light fighter. Both are gonna have entirely different roles and doctrines.
E. You are not informed or properly updated then. Make in India program of 90 more aircraft is there and F-16s, F-18s , Gripen and Rafale are candidates. Also 36 off the shelf Rafales will give enough time to negotiate the deal under MII.
F, G and H. Its BS to say the least. At the end 'Grapes are sour'.
@Abingdonboy @Taygibay @Nilgiri
 
Today marks the official signing of the long awaited, discussed, contested contract of Rafale aircraft for Indian Air Force. Enter the first western designed fifth generation multi-role fighter aircraft, most suitable for Indian desire of airspace domination over the sub-continent.

However, I find today as the real reason for celebration across many circles, including Pakistan's military community. Why, you may reckon? The procurement of 36 Rafales is exactly where India should not be.

Here is my opinion!

A) The selection of Rafale, after many painstaking years was to replace the Migs of India, which are in hundreds. Out of 120 aircraft, only 36 are being procured, which defeats the purpose of the induction.

B) The French Dassault are notoriously expensive. The "cost through life" of their bird is 6 times any of its contemporary, ensuring that budget will always be short, and always be tight.

C) Till the time the aircraft capabilities are fully realized, it would already be fully neutralized by competitive procurements in the region.

D) Once Indian pilots fly the Rafale, the interest in TEJAS will diminish further, creating an internal battle of buying foreign versus building local, hence jeopardizing both programs.

E) The Rafale aircraft purchase kills the "make in india" dream of the Modi government, which shows that this decision is a panic decision to stop gap fill the entirely low serviceability rates of IAF, combined with shrinking squadron numbers and lack of pilots.

F) The Rafale deal essentially closes the door in Indian Air Force for BAE Systems Eurofighter Typhoon, and BAE Systems ES products. This will re-open the opportunity of other countries to access the platform/avionics from these sources.

G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.
I would not be surprised F16 line came to India. This celebration might be too premature.
 
This opinion piece, on an opinion blog, as put more heartache on our neighbors. than 5 decades of Indian movies combined.

The PART TWO of the Rafale Deal is ALL about Make in India

Since the earlier MMRCA programme had become too complex and unworkable
we have worked out an even better arrangement with regard to the Make in India objective

We lost Two years but it is still worth it
Part one took how many years?
 
G) Rafale program is essentially a lame duck political approach, which exemplifies the military policy of the state being run by civilians, never coming up to the expectation of uniformed professionals.

No it is NOT

The selection of the Rafale was done by the IAF in the MOST Professional manner

Infact BRAZIL later on approached India for getting to know the PROCESS

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...perience-with-Brazil/articleshow/11801915.cms
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ALL the SIX planes were evaluated for over 640 PARAMETRES

And they were put through the Most rigorous tests from LEH in sub zero Temperatures
to the DESERTS of Rajasthan at 45 degrees Celsius and the Humid climate of Bangalore
 
no doubt a very capable strike fighter, the main problem will be the exorbitant cost to purchase and maintain. Im happy with the timelines , by the time you get it and fully induct it in 6 years, we would be getting the J31 which will be way ahead so now you will neither have quantitative nor qualitative advantage meanwhile many including french and indian politicians will laugh all the way to the bank.
 
Lol... and the professional didn't know the way of indian procurements!!!!! He seems desparate than rejoice...

First of all rafale is the replacement for Mig27 not 21 thats tha job of lca... and rafale is not light weight catogory...

Second india always orders in batches... read the history.. and if you're happy with the numbers then let me give you a bad news... rafale will have 80 to 90 available rate... even if 30 fighters are available... it provides a great capability.
 
no doubt a very capable strike fighter, the main problem will be the exorbitant cost to purchase and maintain. Im happy with the timelines , by the time you get it and fully induct it in 6 years, we would be getting the J31 which will be way ahead so now you will neither have quantitative nor qualitative advantage meanwhile many including french and indian politicians will laugh all the way to the bank.

Oh bhai J-31 2026 se pehle nahi aane laga 10 saal tk bhool jao
 
H) Rafale deal is highly suspected of big bribes from the French to all levels within the Indian administration, MOD, and IAF, which will eventually come out and further derail any future procurement plans of IAF to meet the existing and future requirements.

That is basically a false ; unfounded ; malicious and baseless allegation

The Present government has totally cleaned up the Procurement process by a crackdown on
all middlemen and wheeler dealers

The present government was elected on an Anti corruption platform and will do everything to
Retain and maintain its goodwill among the people

Today we have Integrity Pacts and clauses
which are part of the Defence procurement procedure
 
no doubt a very capable strike fighter, the main problem will be the exorbitant cost to purchase and maintain. Im happy with the timelines , by the time you get it and fully induct it in 6 years, we would be getting the J31 which will be way ahead so now you will neither have quantitative nor qualitative advantage meanwhile many including french and indian politicians will laugh all the way to the bank.

Apples are sour. J-31 is full decade away to be in PAF color. Anyway no harm in Day Dreaming Mamoo !!
 
8 billion for 36 jets is crazy numbers.

Surely the f35 becomes a much viable option if you are paying that kind of money. or did uncle sam not want to pass on any technology of the f35 to india due to the Russia connection.

Is the Rafeal a better fighter jet then the f35? i would say a big no
 
no doubt a very capable strike fighter, the main problem will be the exorbitant cost to purchase and maintain. Im happy with the timelines , by the time you get it and fully induct it in 6 years, we would be getting the J31 which will be way ahead so now you will neither have quantitative nor qualitative advantage meanwhile many including french and indian politicians will laugh all the way to the bank.
Yes and India will sit idle for atleast a decade now after the rafale procurement.
Rafale are coming in big numbers and now our main focus is on the pak fa(pmf). Try countering that with j-31.
 
Just one question..how will PAF counter meteor and spectra combo?
1.By acquiring PL-12d along with J-10c.
2.By acquiring Eurofighter along with meteor.
3.By acquiring latest F-16 with Aim-120d.
Frankly I don't think another option is available,now sir what will be your Ans of same question?
 
4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party

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4 reasons why Rafale could ruin Modi and Parrikar's party
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September 23, 2016 09:47 IST


Ajai Shukla explains why there is considerable discomfort within the defence ministry about the Rafale deal.

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On a warm Delhi evening on April 3, 2015, Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar had left his South Block office and was driving to catch his flight to Goa, when his mobile phone received an incoming call from the Prime Minister's Office.

Could he come in urgently, an official asked, the PM would like to talk briefly.

When Parrikar reached the PMO, Prime Minister Narendra Modi sprang a bombshell.

Parrikar was told that, on Modi's forthcoming trip to Paris, he and French President Francois Hollande would announce an agreement for India to buy 36 Rafale fighters.

During Modi's nine-day tour of France, Germany and Canada, Parrikar would have to manage the media and field the inevitable questions.

Taken aback, Parrikar still caught his flight to Goa. Over the next week, he batted loyally on behalf of his PM, publicly defending a decision he neither understood nor agreed with, that was taken over his head, and that senior ministry of defence officials warned him would be difficult to defend.

Today, 17 months later, most pledges that Parrikar issued in defence of Modi's Rafale agreement have proven incorrect.

He told the Press Trust of India in Goa that all 36 Rafale fighters would join the IAF within two years; in fact more than six years will elapse before the final delivery is made.

He repeated the Modi-Hollande undertaking that the price would be 'on terms that would be better than' Dassault's bid in the now cancelled tender for 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft. It now turns out that India will pay a vastly higher price.

But Parrikar, through 17 months of defending a deal that was not his, has become the face of the Rafale.

And after Friday, when he and his visiting French counterpart Jean-Yves Le Drian sign an inter-governmental agreement for 36 Rafales, Parrikar -- and not Modi -- will answer for the purchase.

There is disquiet within the MoD about the acquisition, with officials concerned about subsequent scrutiny by Constitutional authorities like the Comptroller and Auditor General. Their key worries are as follows.

Exorbitant cost

A key element in price negotiations is 'benchmarking', or comparing Dassault's price with other contracts involving the same fighter.

With India, Dassault had already established a benchmark in the MMRCA acquisition, where it had quoted a price for 18 fully built Rafales, just like the 36 fighters that India is now buying.

Speaking to Doordarshan on April 13, 2015, Parrikar had revealed Rafale's bid for 126 fighters, stating: 'When you talk of 126 (Rafale) aircraft, it becomes a purchase of about Rs 90,000 crore' -- Rs 715 crore per fighter after adding all costs.

Now Parrikar would be buying 36 Rafale fighters for Euro 7.8 billion (over Rs 58,000 crore), which is over Rs 1,600 crore per aircraft -- more than double the earlier price.

True, the current contract includes elements that were not there in the 126 fighter MMRCA tender -- including a superior weapons package with Meteor missiles; and performance-based logistics, which bind Dassault to ensure that a stipulated percentage of the Rafale fleet remains combat-ready at all times. The percentage is guessed to be about 75 to 80 per cent, an unchallenging target for Western fighter types.

Even deducting Euro 2.8 billion for the weapons and PBL from the anticipated Euro 7.8 billion contract amount, a Euro 5 billion (over Rs 37,000 crore) price tag for 36 Rafales puts the ticker price of each at over Rs 1,000 crore.

For that the IAF can buy two-and-a-half Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters -- a heavy fighter as capable as the Rafale.

Variation in fighter types

IAF logisticians, who already struggle to maintain, repair and support six different types of fighters -- the Sukhoi-30MKI, Mirage 2000, Jaguar, MiG-29, MiG-27, MiG-21 and the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft -- are hardly welcoming the prospect of a seventh fighter type, which would require expensive, tailor-made base infrastructure, repair depots and spare parts chains.

Air power experts say more Sukhoi-30MKIs would eliminate this need, besides being cheaper.

Alternatively, fast-tracking the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft, which Russia and India intend to co-develop, would eliminate the need for Rafales.

Even if the IAF exercises an option clause for 18 more Rafales, there would be just three operational squadrons, like with the Mirage 2000.

Besides the options clause, nine more Rafales would be needed, since an IAF squadron has 21 fighters.

Sovereign guarantees

While New Delhi is negotiating the Rafale purchase directly with the private vendor, Dassault, the MoD wants sovereign guarantees from the French government, of the kind that come with American equipment bought through the Foreign Military Sales route.

In a FMS procurement -- India's C-130J Super Hercules purchase -- the US Department of Defence (the Pentagon) sets up a dedicated 'project management team' that negotiates on the buyer's behalf, beating down the price, establishing training and logistics support, and providing assurance that the buyer gets everything needed to operate and maintain the product.

Alongside FMS support, corruption is deterred by the stringent US Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, which vendors seldom dare to violate. This provides comfort to Indian MoD officials against subsequent allegations raised against a deal.

Paris, in contrast, is only willing to give a lukewarm written assurance of support with the Rafale -- something that the MoD refers to disparagingly as a 'comfort letter.'

Piecemeal contracting

India needs some 200 to 300 fighters to replace the MiG-21 and MiG-27 fleet that is being phased out of service. Just 36 Rafales provides little cover, so the IAF hopes to buy not just 18 more under the options clause, but perhaps another tranche later.

MoD officials complain that piecemeal contracting provides little leverage for beating down prices.

The same problem will afflict the procurement of the Gripen NG, or F-16s, which the MoD is weighing as possible options to replace retiring fighters.

With an IGA in the offing, and a formal contract yet to be negotiated, New Delhi would still have the opportunity to address these issues, say MoD officials.

Yet, the IGA on Friday will be celebrated in the IAF as a giant step towards a fighter they have pursued tenaciously for 15 years.



http://www.rediff.com/news/column/f...ld-ruin-modi-and-parrikars-party/20160923.htm
 

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