The Indian Navy’s future power: Kolkata-Class and Visakhapatnam-Class Destroyers

[serenity]

Again, there is zilch, zero proof of the capabilities having been demonstrated tor HQ-9.

There is zilch, zero proof India is capable of CEC without Israel.

There is proof China is. Look up DF-21 and DF-26.

All India is capable of is relay guidance using only Israeli equipment. Not a single piece of Indian equipment CEC.

China has CEC in WZ-8 + DF-21 and DF-26. There's your proof.

https://thediplomat.com/2020/11/chi...o-south-china-sea-claimed-to-hit-target-ship/

 

[SMX 3.0]

BTW many of these systems are either foreign or foreign based as well.

You can keep harping about that while relying on reverse engineered SAMs.

There is zilch, zero proof India is capable of CEC without Israel.

There is zilch, zero proof of Israelis demonstrating that either. Case closed.

 

[serenity]

India is best at bragging and talking down on others.

Whenever others can do something but doesn't announce it or publish information about it but it is clearly capable of (look at the onboard systems). It doesn't count because there is no internet article in English saying this.

Whenever India uses foreign equipment to do something, it is automatically number 2 in achieving it simply because there is an English written article saying this.

 

[MH.Yang]

You can keep harping about that while relying on reverse engineered SAMs.


There is zilch, zero proof of Israelis demonstrating that either. Case closed.

Don't change the subject.
Take out the picture of p15A with high-speed data link antenna, that is the most direct evidence of CEC.
The Japanese destroyer "MAYA" also has a similar antenna, and Japan is the third country with CEC capability, not India.

If you can't take out the picture, it shows that P15A only has the relay guidance capability of Barak 8 itself, not CEC. India's military industry has not made any progress, it falsifies Israel's outdated technology into its own progress.

 

[serenity]

You can keep harping about that while relying on reverse engineered SAMs.


There is zilch, zero proof of Israelis demonstrating that either. Case closed.

LOL

You buy missiles developed by Israel and claim their ability.

Our HHQ-9 is based on S-300. But at least we could reverse engineer it to make it perform better.

Look up Turkish SAM trials. HQ-9 beat Patriot and S-300 in testing. Shot down every single target while Patriot and S-300 missed some.

You Indians can't even copy Klub missile. Which means you struggle with copying shit while we copy better things and improve on it.

And here you laugh at us relying on reverse engineered missiles when you took even longer time to reverse engineer a much less advanced missile.

BTW HQ-9 uses phased array and digital systems compared to the very different systems used by S-300s China imported in the 2000s.

Israel uses Barak-8 and EL radar which is used by India.

Israel is the one that developed it for you lol. And just because they don't announce they have CEC you say they have zilch proof they can do it?!

 

[serenity]

I feel this is all about Indian pride now.

CEC capability of India is only on Barak-8 and Kolkata class as said by link. This capability is guidance relay from one Kolkata class to another and to Barak-8. There is no Indian CEC for Brahmos according to the logic used by Indians where no article on English internet media means no ability. For ability to be recognized, there must be a link. No amount of demonstration proof counts, only the link!

So China, Russia, UK, France all do not have CEC capability at all because there is no link saying they performed a CEC test.

India despite not able to produce any telecommunication technologies have managed to perform CEC equipment on destroyer which uses Israeli main radar and Israeli missile. And of course we should remember that because Israel never announced a CEC test, that means Israel does not have this ability. However, Indians announce it and so even though the Indians use the same Israeli equipment, that means India has it and Israel does not. Got it.

Also China's HGV and AShBM tests which clearly can only be using CEC doesn't count.

Also forget China pioneered 5G telecommunication technologies and been testing 6G tech and quantum communication technologies for years and have a pretty big presence in chip design and manufacturing along with optimized chips for AI, communications, and other specific niche applications.

Yet India with no technology exports compared to European and Chinese somehow have CEC much more advanced than European and Chinese even though this type of technology is 100% dependent on computing and telecommunications technologies of which China leads and India has Zilch zero abilities in even in comparison to smaller European countries.

 

[serenity]

https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2...ut-unique-cooperative-naval-missile-test.html

So if there is an article saying something it must be true right?

Then Barak-8 CEC is only with Israeli MF-STAR.

Looks like it is entirely Israeli and not Indian.

 

[SMX 3.0]

You buy missiles developed by Israel and claim their ability.

Our HHQ-9 is based on S-300. But at least we could reverse engineer it to make it perform better.

Perform what? It's a second-rate copy of a Russian system.

CEC capability of India is only on Barak-8 and Kolkata class as said by link. This capability is guidance relay from one Kolkata class to another and to Barak-8.

You seem to have a severe problem comprehending even simple sentences. This is what Indian navy describes CEC as.

This is how USN defines it.

The US Navy has developed a Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) for decades, which it describes as a “real-time sensor netting system that enables high-quality situational awareness and integrated fire control capability.” The US Navy explains CEC involves the “netting of geographically dispersed sensors to provide a single integrated air picture, thus enabling integrated fire control to destroy increasingly capable threat cruise missiles and aircraft.”

And about the test.

Last week, the Indian Navy for the first time in its history conducted a live firing test of a surface-to-air missile using the so-called cooperative engagement capability (CEC) sensor netting system, which allows the real-time sharing of sensor data on incoming air targets among warships.

“The firing was undertaken on the western seaboard [of India] by Indian naval ships Kochi and Chennai wherein the missiles of both ships were controlled by one ship to intercept different aerial targets at extended ranges,” the MoD statement reads. Put otherwise, CEC allows a warship to detect and, if needed, engage a threat identified by another ship or aircraft.

No use in reinventing definitions there.

So China, Russia, UK, France all do not have CEC capability at all because there is no link saying they performed a CEC test.

France has tested it (and announced it) while the UK has denied having the capability in a public document in response to a ''freedom of information'' request.

Brush up your knowledge, please.

India despite not able to produce any telecommunication technologies have managed to perform CEC equipment on destroyer which uses Israeli main radar and Israeli missile.

lol, we design and manufacture specialized & space-based equipment of high-resolution imaging satellites & transponders for military comm sats. Even the P8I in Indian service is equipped with an Indian data link.

Indian-designed Data Link II delivered to Boeing

 

[Kingdom come]

Perform what? It's a second-rate copy of a Russian system.



You seem to have a severe problem comprehending even simple sentences. This is what Indian navy describes CEC as.

View attachment 776607

This is how USN defines it.

The US Navy has developed a Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) for decades, which it describes as a “real-time sensor netting system that enables high-quality situational awareness and integrated fire control capability.” The US Navy explains CEC involves the “netting of geographically dispersed sensors to provide a single integrated air picture, thus enabling integrated fire control to destroy increasingly capable threat cruise missiles and aircraft.”

And about the test.

Last week, the Indian Navy for the first time in its history conducted a live firing test of a surface-to-air missile using the so-called cooperative engagement capability (CEC) sensor netting system, which allows the real-time sharing of sensor data on incoming air targets among warships.

“The firing was undertaken on the western seaboard [of India] by Indian naval ships Kochi and Chennai wherein the missiles of both ships were controlled by one ship to intercept different aerial targets at extended ranges,” the MoD statement reads. Put otherwise, CEC allows a warship to detect and, if needed, engage a threat identified by another ship or aircraft.

No use in reinventing definitions there.



France has tested it (and announced it) while the UK has denied having the capability in a public document in response to a ''freedom of information'' request.

Brush up your knowledge, please.



lol, we design and manufacture specialized & space-based equipment of high-resolution imaging satellites & transponders for military comm sats. Even the P8I in Indian service is equipped with an Indian data link.

Indian-designed Data Link II delivered to Boeing

This coming on tommorow and people say we can't manufacture telecommunications

INS Dhruv to be commissioned on September 10 by NSA Doval: All you need to know about the N-missile tracking ship

Built by Hindustan Shipyard in collaboration with DRDO and NTRO, INS Dhruv is India's first research vessel and missile tracking ship. It is planned

www.google.com

 

[serenity]

Perform what? It's a second-rate copy of a Russian system.



You seem to have a severe problem comprehending even simple sentences. This is what Indian navy describes CEC as.

View attachment 776607

This is how USN defines it.

The US Navy has developed a Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) for decades, which it describes as a “real-time sensor netting system that enables high-quality situational awareness and integrated fire control capability.” The US Navy explains CEC involves the “netting of geographically dispersed sensors to provide a single integrated air picture, thus enabling integrated fire control to destroy increasingly capable threat cruise missiles and aircraft.”

And about the test.

Last week, the Indian Navy for the first time in its history conducted a live firing test of a surface-to-air missile using the so-called cooperative engagement capability (CEC) sensor netting system, which allows the real-time sharing of sensor data on incoming air targets among warships.

“The firing was undertaken on the western seaboard [of India] by Indian naval ships Kochi and Chennai wherein the missiles of both ships were controlled by one ship to intercept different aerial targets at extended ranges,” the MoD statement reads. Put otherwise, CEC allows a warship to detect and, if needed, engage a threat identified by another ship or aircraft.

No use in reinventing definitions there.



France has tested it (and announced it) while the UK has denied having the capability in a public document in response to a ''freedom of information'' request.

Brush up your knowledge, please.



lol, we design and manufacture specialized & space-based equipment of high-resolution imaging satellites & transponders for military comm sats. Even the P8I in Indian service is equipped with an Indian data link.

Indian-designed Data Link II delivered to Boeing

HQ-9 to us is like Akash to you.



You Indians cannot even copy an advanced missile

The CEC you have is 100% israeli. Brush up your knowledge please. Read the link you provided yourself.

Wow you so supa! You make your own datalink? Just like everyone else huh? How come no CEC then? Why rely on Israeli CEC?

 

[serenity]

HQ-9 being second rate copy of S-300?

New digital fire control radars and phased array... S-300 does not have.

Hit all targets and won Turkey's SAM competition around 2013. S-300 and Patriot failed to perform as well as HQ-9's export version FD-2000.

https://thediplomat.com/2014/05/why-turkey-may-not-buy-chinese-missile-systems-after-all/

What has Akash managed? Zilch. What export competition has Akash ever participated in? Zero.

What has India air defence in its history managed? Shooting down its own helicopter.

What has Indian CEC bragging resulted in?? Even JF-17 and old PAF blinders jammed IAF enough for it to lose a Mig-21 and shoot down its own helicopter.

India can make its own datalink? Okay cool. China can as well.

India can make and export any electronic devices? No.

India can make CEC? No. Read your article - it says Israeli Barak-8 CEC using Israeli EL/M-2248 MF-STAR radar system.

 

[SMX 3.0]

HQ-9 to us is like Akash to you.



You Indians cannot even copy an advanced missile

No need. Here is a 200 km range HTK BMD missile of our own design.

AAD Ashwin Advanced Air Defence - GlobalSecurity.org

Not a Buk Copy: Akash-NG

The CEC you have is 100% israeli.

Please do tell me how fusion of sensor data as well as weapons control has nothing to do with Indian CMS, Indian SDN, Indian Communication Suites/ Datalinks etc. I am interested.

India can make and export any electronic devices? No.

It's a discussion about ''The Indian Navy’s future power: Kolkata-Class and Visakhapatnam-Class Destroyers'', not how many iPhones you can make in an hour.

 

[serenity]

BTW American CEC definition includes cooperation between different navies like USN and JSDF and their different platforms can share data. That is also a part of what they call CEC.

With what we are talking about, it is relayed guidance. This is so basic and common there is no point bragging about it and announcing. For most modern destroyers it is capable of relay guidance.

The UK said they don't have CEC with US. That means their Aster missile systems differ to SM system where Japanese and American platforms have CEC. But for relay guidance, I believe the UK has such capabilities on their Horizon or Daring class which is a base platform developed and used by several European navies.

No need. Here is a 200 km range HTK BMD missile of our own design.

AAD Ashwin Advanced Air Defence - GlobalSecurity.org

Not a Buk Copy: Akash-NG



Please do tell me how fusion of sensor data as well as weapons control has nothing to do with Indian CMS, Indian SDN, Indian Communication Suites/ Data links etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akash-NG

https://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/india/aad.htm


It's a discussion about ''The Indian Navy’s future power: Kolkata-Class and Visakhapatnam-Class Destroyers'', not how many iphones you can make in an hour.

Okay ignore everything said to now. Let's rewind to OP.

Post says Indian navy has CEC which is what we in this thread is defining as relay guidance do you agree?

Not meaning different navies like USN and JSDF can cooperate and perform relay guidance.

This relay guidance is between Barak-8 and Israeli radar.

So my point is saying Israel must have had this system first before India which can only mean India is not the second country on earth to achieve CEC. In fact in relay guidance, it absolutely is not.

So what about Indian CMS, Indian SDN, Indian Communication Suites/ Data links etc? So what? What has these things got to do with anything?

 

[serenity]

@MH.Yang

This Israeli provided relay guidance for three Indian navy ships is really something they need to brag about it seems.

Your links are good. I didn't realize even Type 053 had relay guidance with HHQ-7.

But to think in this era that any modern navy has not got relay guidance ability is something. UK, France, Australia, Russia all of them long ago had relay guidance. Almost all our anti ship missiles and cruise missiles use relay guidance.

They really think they're special with their Barak-8 and EL/M-2248. They are good systems but not Indian.

And to counter this he said India has CMS, Indian SDN, Indian Communication Suites/ Data links. LOL Like someone saying I can build supercar because I have made a bicycle tire before which nobody wants to use or buy from me. He thinks making CMS, SDN, and datalinks is special and difficult or even relevant to fact that their only relay guidance platform is Israeli developed Barak-8 networked with Israeli EL/M2448. So what their CMS and datalinks are also included in this chain. The two major elements are Israeli.

And then this relay guidance capability is not unique to US and India.

 

[serenity]

http://mil.news.sina.com.cn/jssd/2018-08-08/doc-ihhkuskt9421833.shtml

Pretty good summary of CEC history of full comprehensive aspect CEC. China's in the 1980s to 2000s was poor and until Type 052D arrived, could not match the similar type of CEC that US navy has.

Remember that this is referring not only to fire control aspect CEC which here also called relay guidance.

The Indian CEC broadcasted and much chest thumping from Indians is entirely limited to performing the most basic relay guidance which US had since 1970s and China since 1980s.

It is a Barak-8 fired from one Kolkata class using fire control radar information provided by a second Kolkata class. That's it. First ship's fire control radar was off and testing the relay capability. Main element is Israeli Barak-8 missile and Israeli EL/M-2248 MF-STAR radar.

So basically this ability to provide relay guidance is not unique and very old technology. India is not the second navy to do this lol