The incredibly bloody Safavid conversion of Iran to Shia Islam

[SubWater]

pretty much like arabs

your answer is Yes
I don't have problem with Arabs and if they accept our culture, they are welcome

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

However Turks enter Iran plateau and become one of Iranian tribe like other
also many Turks have Iranian origin and Iranian culture so we are partner in their glory

You have the right to see so, like Russians for Altınorda, Greeks for Ottoman, Indians for Mughal.

Also, Turkish involvement is very deep, therefore, you start to see it as yours, like the holly leader.

 

[SubWater]

You have the right to see so, like Russians for Altınorda, Greeks for Ottoman, Indians for Mughal.

Also, Turkish involvement is very deep, therefore, you start to see it as yours, like the holly leader.

As I said any glory by Iranian tribe is my glory
At end all of us are Iranian and I consider Turks parts of Iran like Kurd, Balouch, persian and .....

 

[-SINAN-]

As I said any glory by Iranian tribe is my glory
At end all of us are Iranian and I consider Turks parts of Iran like Kurd, Balouch, persian and .....

You consider Azeri Turks as a part of Iranians or all of the Turkish people as a part of Iranian people ?

 

[khanmubashir]

I was told a thousand times by multiple moderate pakistanis in sincere tone that there is NO SUCH THING AS FORCED RELIGIOUS CONVERSION!!!!!

Well at least not in India or u would be Muslim

 

[drmeson]

You consider Azeri Turks as a part of Iranians or all of the Turkish people as a part of Iranian people ?

If ones sees it rationally, what does being iranian or turk mean ? these are more of a lingual names than anything. I am an azeri turk, am i closer to my central persian speaking iranians or turks across the border ? I am related to both ! We have massive genetic and cultural, historical overlaps among each other in central and west asia, phenotype wise Iranid is present in Turkey and massive numbers of pseudo-Turks can be found in Iran. Its funny too at the same time because our two Irano-Turk nations have ruled this whole region stretching from present day south asia to present north africa for centuries and centuries, our subgroups and tribes like Persians, Turkish, Kurds, Azeris have clashed with each other while other groups in the region were our subjects, we are from the same stock.

A modern day Iranian or Turkish person should see Turkish and Iranian ancient heritage combined as his own. These names like Timurid, Ottomans, Saffavid, Afshar etc are just family clans who contested each other for power. Most were otherwise similar people from same stock.

Pan-Iranists and Pan-turks are the most clueless idiots on internet.

 

[SubWater]

You consider Azeri Turks as a part of Iranians or all of the Turkish people as a part of Iranian people ?

Hello dude
@drmeson answer you we have many similarities and share many things with each other
I mostly mean Iranian plateau by word of Iran and it's rich culture and civilization which fellow in it for thousand of year
The last things I mean by Iran is ethnic and all of those who affected by this culture and civilization are Iranian
Iran had great civilization before Aryans like Ilam, shahr-sokhte, jiroft, .... , so with @Gothic logic even Aryans are not Iranian b/c they later enter Iran plateau
and many times foreigners invade Iran but at end all of them surrender and become Iranian

 

[raptor22]

Which hadith?



Thats where you go astray when you compare mushrikeen with Sahaba (r.a) like Khawarij.. Khawarij also use example and verses in condemnation of mushrikeen to execute innocent Muslims. They killed each other for what they considered right for Islam and law and order in Khilafat, read hadith of Prophet (PBUH) about Hassan (r.a) where he said : My son is a master, and Allah may use him to make peace between two parties of Muslims.” [Saheeh Al-Bukhari, Book of "Afflictions," #6629, vol.6] its unanimous hadith among Sunnis and Shia.

beloved Prophet (saww) didnt said 1 party of Muslims and other party of Munafiqs..



and you have only clue of fabricated history, Imam Hassan signed peace deal becoz Prophet (saww) propheciesed it, rest is just Blah Blah, Ameer Muawiyah was human (we dont call Ameer ul momineen, for us Sunnis only first 4 Caliphs are true caliphs sometime which include Imam Hassan (R.A) as well) , he was not aware that Yazeed can be traitor and so satanic.



As i said there is no doubt that Ahle Sunnat are true follower of Ahlul bait (r.a) and we believe in this Hadith with letter and sprit, We dont misbehave against ummul momineen (r.a) or first 3 caliph like Hazrat Ali (r.a) Imam Hassan and Hussain(R.a) but shia do. we follow the Sawad e Azam like Imam Ali did by offering allegiance to Abu Bakr, Umar and Usman (R.A) so the ummah dont get divided, but shia love their minority and fabricated books like nehjul balagha, kafi and etc.



you cant gather majority of Muslim on Jahalat.. try your luck, you failed in 14 centuries you will always fail, and from which Ayah or Hadith you got that Prophet (saww) said Hazrat Ali (r.a) will be first caliph.. That Hadith didnt reach big Jammat of Muslimeen who elected Khalifa e Rasool Abu bakr (r.a) caliph including Hazrat Ali (r.a), but it reached Shia somehow..

And dont post about Darbari Mullah like Saudi Mufti, no one take him serious.

Ok ... First you accused us of being followers of Abdullah ibne Saba without proofing it where is the proof? ... and then you didn't pay attention to narrations I gave you ... and now you are telling me that what we say is fabricated while everything I mentioned here were from Sunni books ....
And I still wonder how on earth 2 persons could be right while one kill the other one and still both go to heaven ...
By the way whenever you answered to narration I gave you in first reply I would continue the discussion.

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

As I said any glory by Iranian tribe is my glory
At end all of us are Iranian and I consider Turks parts of Iran like Kurd, Balouch, persian and .....

Apparently, you insistently want to make a point, which needs a cross-check.

Would you please tell me the story about replacement of Persian with Iran as name?

 

[mangekyo]

Apparently, you insistently want to make a point, which needs a cross-check.

Would you please tell me the story about replacement of Persian with Iran as name?

Persia was never a local name for what is now Iran. There is a place in Shiraz which the greeks named Persepolis, meaning the Persian city. So western world, because they are racist started to call everything Iranian "Persian" Just like some ignorant people even to date, calls all muslims for "Arabs"

In 1935 (I think) The Shah of Iran asked the world to kindly recognise this land as Iran and not Persia.

Pan-Iranists and Pan-turks are the most clueless idiots on internet.

Pan-Iranists and Pan-turks are the most clueless idiots on internet.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you, I hate Pan-Iranists and Pan-turks. They are the most fascist, racist, ignorant people I have ever met

Btw.

I am Azeri from Iran as well. What city are you from?

A modern day Iranian or Turkish person should see Turkish and Iranian ancient heritage combined as his own. These names like Timurid, Ottomans, Saffavid, Afshar etc are just family clans who contested each other for power. Most were otherwise similar people from same stock.

I do not agree with this although I have to admit I dont know enough about this topic. But I dont think Turkish people and Iranian Azeris are the same people. This is just something "Wannabe european party Iranians" and "Think they are gods of all Turks, Turkish people" tell each other. The Ottomans were heavily influenced by and embraced Iran and Iranian culture. But that is as far as it goes. We are not the same people.

 

[Gothic]

Hello dude
@drmeson answer you we have many similarities and share many things with each other
I mostly mean Iranian plateau by word of Iran and it's rich culture and civilization which fellow in it for thousand of year
The last things I mean by Iran is ethnic and all of those who affected by this culture and civilization are Iranian
Iran had great civilization before Aryans like Ilam, shahr-sokhte, jiroft, .... , so with @Gothic logic even Aryans are not Iranian b/c they later enter Iran plateau
and many times foreigners invade Iran but at end all of them surrender and become Iranian

I didn't say that , the history of iran as known to most , starts with the Aryan invasion . they even used to teach us this theory in the islamic history books of the IR , briefly of course . the achamenid era was shortly after the aryan invasions , when an achamenid king like Darius claimed Aryan heritage .. as a distinction from people under his rule , he didn't mean i come from Ilam , shahr-sokhte or jiroft .. aryans came from the east of the caspian sea , a horse archer civilization and known for their distinct scale armor , as opposed to the european chain-mail armor


http://listverse.com/2010/01/05/top-10-interesting-facts-about-the-scythians/


Top 10 Interesting Facts about the Scythians
LISTVERSE STAFF JANUARY 5, 2010


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The Scythians were a nomadic tribe that dominated the steppes for nearly five hundred years (From the 8th to approximately the 3rd Centuries BC). The Scythians spoke a tongue from the Northeastern Iranian language family. The Scythians were renowned for their ability to shoot their arrows with deadly accuracy from horseback. This talent astounded their neighbors, who referred to them as the “horse-bowmen.” The greatest amount of territory under Scythian influence extended west to east from Ukraine to an area of Siberia just above Mongolia. Scythians settled as far west as what is now modern-day Romania and Hungary and appeared in what is now modern-day Iran just as the Assyrians and Medes were battling for supremacy in the Near-East.









The Assyrians attempted to imitate the grandeur of the Babylonians, but their despotic rule was held together by the might of their army and the terror of their secret agents. The Scythians displaced and drove another steppe tribe, the Cimmerians, toward Assyrian territory. These Cimmerians created havoc for the Assyrian army, who had great difficulty reacting to the raids of these swiftly moving horsemen. The increasing encroachment of the Cimmerians weakened the Assyrians and provided their vassals with opportunity to rebel. Egypt expelled the Assyrians and regained it independence. Ashurbanipal, king of Assyria, panicked at his contracting frontiers and sacked Babylon and destroyed Susa in an attempt to terrorize his remaining peoples into submission. Meanwhile, in the wake of the Cimmerians, the Scythians were provided with increasingly tempting opportunities to raid Assyria. They surged into the Middle East, overwhelming the Assyrian infantry with their speed and firepower. The Babylonians and Medes formed an alliance, and with the mercenary aid of the Scythians, shattered the Assyrian Empire.





The full-bearded Scythians wore tall pointed caps, long coats clasped around their waists by a belt, and pants tucked into their boots. The wealthier warriors had iron scales sewn to leather as jackets, while the average Scythian relied on their round oblong wicker shields draped in leather for protection.

The primary weapon of the Scythians was their short composite bow, which could fire an arrow up to eighty yards. When they hunted birds, the Scythians used a fine arrowhead, as they aimed for the eyes. When they shot at other warriors, however, the Scythians used barbed arrowheads designed to tear a wound open on the way out. They also brewed their own poisons for their arrow tips, a mixture of snake venom, putrefied human blood, and, to hasten infection, dung. The secondary weapons of the Scythians were the sagaris, a curved battle-axe, and the akinakes, a curved short-sword.










The Scythians’ culture may have disappeared long ago, but their burial mounds remain. These kurhans were built as repositories for the great Scythian chieftains and kings. Atop these strange mounds stood crudely carved stone figures, guarding the bodies and possessions of the deceased interned within. The largest of these kurhans are the height of a six-story building and are more than ninety metres across. The mounds were not just piles of dirt or refuse, but were actually layers of sod to provide grazing in the afterlife for the many horses buried along with the deceased.



As mentioned in the previous item, the burial of Scythian nobility was quite elaborate. In one kurhan uncovered in 1898, archaeologists found 400 horses arrayed in a geometric pattern around the body of the slain warrior. It was not only horses who were slaughtered, but consorts and retainers also had the dubious honor of joining their lord in the afterlife. Herodotus reported that mourners would pierce their left hands with arrows, slash their arms, and cut off portions of their ears in demonstration of their sorrow. A year following the burial, 50 horses and 50 slaves were killed, gutted, stuffed, and impaled on posts around the kurhan. The horses stood upright, mounted by the dead slaves, ghastly sentinels guarding the tomb of their slain lord.



Before the Scythians can be dismissed as blood-thirsty barbarians, one really needs to see their elaborate golden artwork. Scythian gold came from the Altai district and from frequent raids on Greek and Persian cities. Gold was sewn into their garments in the form of plates, fashioned into belts, broaches, necklaces, torques, scabbards, helmets, earrings, and ornaments, and worked into their weapons. The Scythians had an eye for design, especially depictions of griffins, lions, wolves, stags, leopards, eagles and – the Scythians’ favourite motif – animals in deadly combat. The historian, William Montgomery McGovern, claimed, “From the mass of evidence now before us, it seems highly probably that this Scytho-Sarmatian animal style spread to all parts of the ancient world and had an important effect not only upon European art but upon the art of ancient China.”












Herodotus testified that the Scythians wore tattoos as a sign of their nobility. A Scythian without tattoos showed that he was of low station. The existence of Scythian tattoos was confirmed in 1948, when a Russian archaeologist uncovered the frozen body of a Scythian chieftain. His tattoos included stylized images of a stag and a ram on his right arm, two griffins on his chest, and a fish on his right leg. These findings were seen by some experts as further evidence that fanciful Scythian depictions of wild animals had influenced the art of China, Persia, India, and Eastern Europe.



After battle, Scythian warriors would drink the blood of the first enemy he had killed. With the bloody taste still in his mouth, the Scythian would decapitate the corpses of his slain enemies to use as grisly vouchers in the distribution of booty. Only warriors who presented the heads of their slain enemies would receive their share from the chieftain or king. After receiving his share, a warrior would take the scalps from his collection of heads as a lurid inventory of martial prowess. The scalps were affixed to their bridles and clothing and even sewn into cloaks. The skulls of the strongest, most respected, enemies were cut, gilded with gold, and made into wine goblets. Scythians also used the skin from their victims’ limbs as covers for the quivers that hung on the right side of their belts.



The Scythians were fond of marijuana and were responsible for bringing it from Central Asia to Egypt and Eastern Europe. In one Scythian grave, archaeologists found a skull with three small holes drilled into it – probably to ease swelling. Beside the skull, the archaeologists found a cache of marijuana, ostensibly to relieve the man’s headache in the next life. From Herodotus comes what is, in all likelihood, the most ancient description of hotboxing: “After the burial . . . they set up three poles leaning together to a point and cover them with woolen mats . . . They make a pit in the centre beneath the poles and throw red-hot stones into it . . . they take the seed of the hemp and creeping under the mats they throw it on the red-hot stones, and being thrown, it smolders and sends forth so much steam that no Greek vapour-bath could surpass it. The Scythians howl in their joy at the vapour-bath.”



Herodotus relates the tale of a clash between Scythians and Amazons near the Sea of Azov. When the Scythians learned that their fierce opponents were, in fact, women, they sent their most virile warriors to woo, rather than war, these female warriors. Somehow, the Amazons were seduced by the charms of the wily Scythians. They were, however, unwilling to be the brides of their Scythian lovers, turning their nose up at the domestic role that Scythian wives were relegated to. Eventually, according to the tale, the two groups formed a joint tribe.
There is likely little truth to this tale, but archaeologists have recently found the remains of a number of well-armed Scythian women. In all likelihood, this means that Scythian society saw a place for female warriors.



In 513 BC The Scythians were attacked by Darius the Great, who raised a force of 700,000 men to put an end to their bothersome raids into his territory. Taking advantage of the vast steppe, the Scythians merely retreated when the Persians advanced and advanced when the Persians retreated. The Scythian scouts milled about, striking from a distance if any of the Persians ever had the misfortune of breaking formation or exposing a flank. Herodotus reports that, at one point, both sides had drawn up battle lines when a loud whooping arose from among the Scythian warriors. The Scythian horsemen suddenly broke their battle line and galloped impulsively after a hare. “These fellows have a hearty contempt for us,” Darius is reported to have muttered to an aide. Running low on food and morale, Darius eventually withdrew his army.

-----------------------------------------------

scythians basically clashed with the proto-arabic civilizations of today's iraq and the levant and gave rise to achamendis , and later sassanian .

and many times foreigners invade Iran but at end all of them surrender and become Iranian

well , one of many skills in life is assimilation , at least the aryans managed to assimilate into their host societies ; unlike jews for instance who are yet to master that skill given all the means everywhere they go ...

some even say , jesus was a scythian persecuted by jews in the land of israel . that 's what the christians in hungary believe

old Jewishsaying "When you see a Parthian charger chained to a tombstone in the Land of Israel, the hour of the Messiah will be near".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Iran

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Persia was never a local name for what is now Iran. There is a place in Shiraz which the greeks named Persepolis, meaning the Persian city. So western world, because they are racist started to call everything Iranian "Persian" Just like some ignorant people even to date, calls all muslims for "Arabs"

In 1935 (I think) The Shah of Iran asked the world to kindly recognise this land as Iran and not Persia.



Pan-Iranists and Pan-turks are the most clueless idiots on internet.

I agree with you, I hate Pan-Iranists and Pan-turks. They are the most fascist, racist, ignorant people I have ever met

Btw.

I am Azeri from Iran as well. What city are you from?



I do not agree with this although I have to admit I dont know enough about this topic. But I dont think Turkish people and Iranian Azeris are the same people. This is just something "Wannabe european party Iranians" and "Think they are gods of all Turks, Turkish people" tell each other. The Ottomans were heavily influenced by and embraced Iran and Iranian culture. But that is as far as it goes. We are not the same people.

I think you are in confusion in Iran-Persia and Turk-''Azeri'' cases, what is more, you did not understand what i meant in my question.

 

[Gothic]

Who were the Aryans, a Scythian tribe !

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/topic/272414-who-were-the-aryans-a-scythian-tribe/


http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/saka/

Introduction to the Saka
The Saka included groups who were part of the Zoroastrian and Aryan families of nations. They included the Chorasmi from Khairizem / Khvarizem / Khwarezm (Gk. Chorasmia), the Parthava (Parthians), the Dahi (Dahae) and the Sistani.

The largest number of ancient Zoroastrian related ruins and artefacts, including a dakhma, a Zoroastrian burial tower known as a 'Tower of Silence', have been uncovered in Chorasmia / Khwarezm. The Dahi were one of the first five nations or people amongst whom Zarathushtra preached his message. The Parthava (Parthians) liberated Iran-Shahr from Macedonian rule and reconstructed the Zoroastrian scriptures, the Avesta that had been destroyed by Alexander. Sistan's heroes, Sam, Zal and Rustam, were the pahlavans, the strongmen and protectors of the imperial Iranian throne. Their stories occupy the largest sections in Ferdowsi's epic poem, the Shahnameh.

For the main part, the traditional land of the Saka forms part of Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan and Kyrgyzstan today.



It seems to me that Aryan and Scythian originated at same place and they were genetically same people(Mostly R1a,R2 and little Q,J2). It seems to me that there was only cultural difference between two. They seem to originated somewhere in central Asia but later moved toward Eastern Europe and South Asia and mixed with people of those regions. I wonder which modern groups resemble them most.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=31097

 

[mangekyo]

I think you are in confusion in Iran-Persia and Turk-''Azeri'' cases, what is more, you did not understand what i meant in my question.

What do you mean by I am confused with Iran-Persia and Turk-Azeri cases? Did you not ask the story behind how what was once called Persia, got the name Iran?

 

[Gothic]

"gothic" itself is interchangeable with "scythian" and hence aryan . there are countless places and names in iran which has the prefix goot- or got- . only today's white supremacist , neo nazi european academia want to deny this . in the old tale of Beo-wulf (bear wolf) the protagonist is a scythian who invades europe and challenges the local population . and if you take a close look gothic architecture in europe is a christianization of parhtian and sassanian era architecture.

Wolf - the grey wolf - obscenely used by pan-turks today , grey wolf is native to the area East of the caspian sea ,The Steppe (as in the Steppe wolf ..) up to syberia in far east , where it used to be called Scythia ... . not to turkey! !