The illicit wine-makers of Pakistan's north

[Hyperion]

Preda mara, noro parwa ma ta nasta!

Za mara, you have just been declared Kafir(again) in the minds of around 80% Pakistanis reading this thread.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

Sir we must bear in mind that unlike the Koran, the Ahadiths are not divine and they are not infallible. There are variables which the Muslims should take into account, for instance the time period and the context of the ahadiths, the source of the ahadiths, the political dynamics at that time period etc.

Also how valid are the sources. Imagine in these modern times with all the technology we've at our disposal we are still duped with information asymmetry and sometimes clear cut falsehood (lies). The Ahadiths were compiled years after Mohammed's passing away narrated through not one but various chains. Logically what are the chances that how much of the stuff was watered down. There is a high possibility that there might have been various types of biases as well when the narrations, collections, and compilations were taking place (years after the passing away).

Ahadith are not divine, they're fallible and at best they're for a very specific time period sir. For instance even the second caliph and one of the closest confidant of Mohammed, Omar, made changes to the sharia code when he abolished chopping of the hand as the punishment in view of the current situation at that specific time.

Have you studied mustalahaath al hadith? NO!
I ask you again, where does it say in the Quran on how to do namaaz?

Again, you refuse to answer the question. It is okay, your failure is evident.

I answered and yet you do not comprehend.

1. I told you there is ONE WAY OF NAMAAZ! What part of this statement don't you understand?
2. I told you nabi as'salaathu was'salaam in EXCEPTIONAL circumstances did do the rafadain as mentioned before with the reasons.

There is no difference of opinion. I as a Hanafi jurisprudence school follower can do the rafadain. It is SUNNAH, not FARID of namaaz!

Do you even know what Farid, Sunnah, Wajiab, Nafil mean?

Go an study what is NAMAAZ and what are the wajibaath and Faraid!

Now, who are you? What religion are you from? There NO way a MUSLIM cannot know about NAMAAZ!

No wonder why you are in the hell you have created.... again hate filled lectures with political mindset written by humans for serving their own purpose.. best way is to elevate's one divinity and make one's ideology worth following.. perfect logic for lunatics like ISIS

Use common sense and stop following sentences like a sheep. You are no different to the narrow minded fellow religous lunatics who cling to each word from the talmud again as one writer said, those are not laws but intepretations and discussions written by people and are fallible.

Like one fellow said.. Mohammed split to moon up and the line is still there. I am an amateur astronomer and offered to point the telescope to the moon so he could show me. This is similar to that and have no reality just myth.

It is a shame that you say such things when you were honored above all nations and yet what you say is a testamount to those who came before us from amongst your nation.

As far as the dogs of Hell (ISIS) are concerned, we'll deal with them if they come here.

By ALLAH, Prophet Muhammad as'salaathu was'salaam did INDEED split the moon in half! Why would you believe this when your nation disbelieved and disobeyed Prophets that came before; Sulaiman as'salaam, Musa as'salaam, Zakariyaa as'salaam, Binyamin as'salaam, Essa as'salaam, etc.

 

[Psychic]

*Those who enjoy alcohol should have their rights safeguarded and be allowed to enjoy their beverages as long as they're not transgressing the rights of the non-alcoholic community.

And make a mockery of Pakistani laws.

Dude if you are an atheist that's none of my concern but at the same time, do ponder on the point that these people violate Pakistani laws.

Do you know that chewing gum is banned in Singapore? They impose a heavy fine on those who eat chewing gum.
The same way wine is banned in Pakistan and any one who consumes wine violates our laws. You are encouraging people to violate Pakistani laws as those laws according to you have no need to be respected.

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

I have no problem with them drinking or consuming wine. Such decisions are personal even though I personally have a hate for wine or beer or whatever. Freedom of will should be guaranteed everywhere. However what came to my attention was the place where they were placing all the grapes. Sorry to say it looks extremely dirty. How about focusing on hygiene and health too?

Any way I would like the Pakistani wine producers to succeed. They are my citizens, my people and our growth matters to me. We should allow export of murree beer and other local wine producers.

One of central tenets of Islam is choose for your brother what you choose for yourself or enjoin in what is good and forbid what is evil. It is central principal of secular capitalism that you profit from the misery of others calling it their problem... taxing alcohol and drugs so that at least government gets a cut of the proceeds. This inhibits building of a community and puts each and everyone in their hole each one for himself dog eat dog world.

 

[VCheng]

1. I told you there is ONE WAY OF NAMAAZ! What part of this statement don't you understand?
2. I told you nabi as'salaathu was'salaam in EXCEPTIONAL circumstances did do the rafadain as mentioned before with the reasons.

You told me the wrong thing, when it is clear from the Prophet's PBUH way that there are many ways of namaz. Both #1 and #2 cannot be correct. You are following what Imam Hanafi believed, not what Mohammad PBUH did. Big difference!

 

[OldenWisdom...قول بزرگ]

You told me the wrong thing, when it is clear from the Prophet's PBUH way that there are many ways of namaz. Both #1 and #2 cannot be correct. You are following what Imam Hanafi believed, not what Mohammad PBUH did. Big difference!

Both points are indeed correct. No jurisprudence considers Raf yadain as compulsory however the consensus among at least three jurisprudence is that it is wajib.

 

[VCheng]

Both points are indeed correct. No jurisprudence considers Raf yadain as compulsory however the consensus among at least three jurisprudence is that it is wajib.

You should really study the life of the Prophet PBUH in more detail, Sir. His varied ways of prayers are known. The rigid interpretations being forced onto believers came much later from other sources, not from the Quran or the Prophet PBUH.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

You told me the wrong thing, when it is clear from the Prophet's PBUH way that there are many ways of namaz. Both #1 and #2 cannot be correct. You are following what Imam Hanafi believed, not what Mohammad PBUH did. Big difference!

No sir, I told you the correct thing. I have told you before you need to understand what are the faraid of namaaz and what are sunnah, and wajib. The faraid of the namaaz are set in stone! Hence, there is ONLY one way of praying. Rafadain is not farid of namaaz.

I follow the interpretation of the Hanafi Jurists who are QUALIFIED scholars. In the same way, I don't open a book on Medicine to do self-diagnosis, I go to a DOCTOR!

There is not difference and with utmost respect you don't know what you're talking about. I challenge you to prove me what Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Imam Malik, Imam Ahmad followed anything other than Nabi as'salaathu was'salaam.

As a sunni who follows the Hanafi school make it clear that all the above schools are correct. The 4 schools base the aqeedah of Ahal Al-Sunnah wa jamaah and I am one of them. So I repeat bring forth your proofs of your claim that the Hanafi school or any of the above mentioned schools don't follow Nabi as'salaathu was'salaam.

I would suggest you read up on the life of Imam Abu Hanifa and others Imams as mentioned before you make such a callous statement. Why don't you come to our Madrassah in Azad Kashmir and the Mufti will educate you? We don't bite!

You should really study the life of the Prophet PBUH in more detail, Sir. His varied ways of prayers are known. The rigid interpretations being forced onto believers came much later from other sources, not from the Quran or the Prophet PBUH.

You've questioned namaaz in the quran?
You questioned how many times we pray in a day?
You questioned the way of namaaz?

So...what seerah are you talking about? Yes, I have both of seerah an nabi as'salaathu was'salaam studied in the Madrassah.

The namaaz was varied due to circumstances; do you know how to do salaathu khowf? This is not the normal way of namaaz but done when you fear an enemy might attack when you're in namaaz. Do you know salaath al-safar? This is not the normal way of namaaz, yet due to travelling the namaaz is shortened.

I am only answering you not because of my ego or I care what you think; it is so people like you DON'T lead others astray!

 

[VCheng]

No sir, I told you the correct thing. I have told you before you need to understand what are the faraid of namaaz and what are sunnah, and wajib. The faraid of the namaaz are set in stone! Hence, there is ONLY one way of praying. Rafadain is not farid of namaaz.

I follow the interpretation of the Hanafi Jurists who are QUALIFIED scholars. In the same way, I don't open a book on Medicine to do self-diagnosis, I go to a DOCTOR!

There is not difference and with utmost respect you don't know what you're talking about. I challenge you to prove me what Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Shafi, Imam Malik, Imam Ahmad followed anything other than Nabi as'salaathu was'salaam.

As a sunni who follows the Hanafi school make it clear that all the above schools are correct. The 4 schools base the aqeedah of Ahal Al-Sunnah wa jamaah and I am one of them. So I repeat bring forth your proofs of your claim that the Hanafi school or any of the above mentioned schools don't follow Nabi as'salaathu was'salaam.

I would suggest you read up on the life of Imam Abu Hanifa and others Imams as mentioned before you make such a callous statement. Why don't you come to our Madrassah in Azad Kashmir and the Mufti will educate you? We don't bite!



You've questioned namaaz in the quran?
You questioned how many times we pray in a day?
You questioned the way of namaaz?

So...what seerah are you talking about? Yes, I have both of seerah an nabi as'salaathu was'salaam studied in the Madrassah.

The namaaz was varied due to circumstances; do you know how to do salaathu khowf? This is not the normal way of namaaz but done when you fear an enemy might attack when you're in namaaz. Do you know salaath al-safar? This is not the normal way of namaaz, yet due to travelling the namaaz is shortened.

I am only answering you not because of my ego or I care what you think; it is so people like you DON'T lead others astray!

Your own post above proves that you follow the beliefs of the imams who made their interpretations far more rigid that anything the beloved Prophet PBUH did in his life. It is your right to believe what you want, but you have no right to force your views on other believers.

And make a mockery of Pakistani laws.

Dude if you are an atheist that's none of my concern but at the same time, do ponder on the point that these people violate Pakistani laws.

Do you know that chewing gum is banned in Singapore? They impose a heavy fine on those who eat chewing gum.
The same way wine is banned in Pakistan and any one who consumes wine violates our laws. You are encouraging people to violate Pakistani laws as those laws according to you have no need to be respected.

Being legal or illegal by virtue of man-made law is quite another matter from declaring anything banned by Allah Himself. Quite the step.

 

[Psychic]

Being legal or illegal by virtue of man-made law is quite another matter from declaring anything banned by Allah Himself.

Right. Don't obey traffic rules- they are man made as well.

 

[VCheng]

Right. Don't obey traffic rules- they are man made as well.

Actually, if you look around on Pakistan's roads, not many obey those traffic rules either!

 

[Psychic]

Actually, if you look around on Pakistan's roads, not many obey those traffic rules either!

I was handed over a challan of 300 just a few days back as I did not stop on red light. If I am punished for disobeying Pakistani laws then why do some people proudly make moonshine(a violation of our laws) and get away with it?
And here a few think tanks encourage people to violate Pakistani laws just because they "think" that wine is not haram in Islam(although brewing wine is considered a crime as per Pakistan Penal Code but our TTAs chose to ignore that basic fact).
I wonder what's comming up next from those aggressive "tanks" who label anyone who disagree with them as a fundo, mullah and wahabbi.

 

[VCheng]

I was handed over a challan of 300 just a few days back as I did not stop on red light. If I am punished for disobeying Pakistani laws then why do some people proudly make moonshine(a violation of our laws) and get away with it?
And here a few think tanks encourage people to violate Pakistani laws just because they "think" that wine is not haram in Islam(although brewing wine is considered a crime as per Pakistan Penal Code but our TTAs chose to ignore that basic fact).
I wonder what's comming up next from those aggressive "tanks" who label anyone who disagree with them as a fundo, mullah and wahabbi.

I am all for supporting the law. If Pakistan declares alcohol illegal (as it has), then that must be respected. However, declaring something haram as a divine command from Allah Himself is quite another discussion.

 

[TankMan]

I was handed over a challan of 300 just a few days back as I did not stop on red light. If I am punished for disobeying Pakistani laws then why do some people proudly make moonshine(a violation of our laws) and get away with it?
And here a few think tanks encourage people to violate Pakistani laws just because they "think" that wine is not haram in Islam(although brewing wine is considered a crime as per Pakistan Penal Code but our TTAs chose to ignore that basic fact).
I wonder what's comming up next from those aggressive "tanks" who label anyone who disagree with them as a fundo, mullah and wahabbi.

Alcohol is ''Halal'', just as religious discussions on PDF are "Halal" as long as they are either bashing religion or declaring things like Alcohol "Halal".

@WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Jungibaaz @waz
The rule about religious discussions really needs to be revisited. For if we are allowing these kinds of discussions, we might as well throw that rule in the bin.

 

[Psychic]

Alcohol is ''Halal'', just as religious discussions on PDF are "Halal" as long as they are either bashing religion or declaring things like Alcohol "Halal".

@WebMaster @Horus @Oscar @Jungibaaz @waz
The rule about religious discussions really needs to be revisited. For if we are allowing these kinds of discussions, we might as well throw that rule in the bin.

And a TTA gets a positive rating for declaring wine halal from a TTC who claimed to be an atheiest