The growing agitation of Pakistanis against USA

[Bang Galore]

Not sure if I can answer this question especially when someone asks about why "Most people are being anti-USA"


However this question perhaps can be answered in much smaller context of Pakistani politics.

So if the question is "Why so many Pakistani posters on PDF think USA is is conspiring against them",

then some evidence could be gathered to explain away the reasons.


Most of the Pakistani posters here represents 3 unique groups from educated elite from Pakistan.

1. Urdu Speaking group (It is the smallest but still most dominant in Pakistani political thought)
2. Punjabi group (It is the largest group but its intellectuals tend to behave as if they are the smallest)
3. Peshwar-Charsadda Pashtu speaking group (it is good size group and it is pretty vocal too).

I have no idea whether the above explanation is correct but that was one hell of an explanation....

 

[haviZsultan]

Dear Haviz,

Please be reasonable. Piling up dung on the super power of the world will only hurt one party. And that is We the Pakistanis.

Not necessarily. They want an isolated Iran. A Pakistan with nukes can use this as a bargaining chip. There are options but we don't see them in our fear of this super-power. Bo one can pile dung on a super-power unless it piles it itself. Just to give an example a human being that tries doing that to an elephant and might land under his feet. 200,000 people were killed in nuclear bombings in hiroshima and nagasaki. That was genocide and so were their regular wars they fought all over the map.

You bring up so many issues against USA without deep thinking. Popular street lingo should never be the way to go for a "Think Tank" even if he is a Jr. one.

I have every source and statistic to back up what I believe. You don't. You are giving the average logic of Indian members here who when hearing something negative complain about the same thing. You are most likely a US passport carrier.

Pretty much every issue listed in your "complaints" against USA is nothing new. Every Jummah khutba by 2-bit Mullahs say the same thing.

Stop comparing me to a mullah. My foreign policy states independence. In 1980 the US was supporting the same extremism they claim to be fighting to they. This is no logic. Stop the personal attacks.

So where is your contribution, your thinking independent of the street level khawancha farosh 3rd grade and 3rd rate so-called intellectuals?

Where is it.

Where is yours. You think surrender is a better option?

You talk about nuclear deals of US-India. have you ever gone deeper than just raising slogans?

You have answered none of my 12 points. Why did these happen?

We the Pakistanis need to calm down.

Those Americans need to stop bombing us and using us to fight their wars, dying in them and then blaming us for that to happen. In fact there is a parrallel relation to it.

This is before the war began:
Bomb blasts in Pakistan 2000

This is after the war till 2012:
Fatalities in Terrorist Violence in Pakistan 2003-2013

Any ardent observer can see attacks rose in conjunction with American involvement.

USA has always known that India is the instigator and the main culprit in the regions when it comes to the nuclear tests. Pakistan never initiated nor threatened anyone with nukes. The only exception was a "retaliatory" response to Indians. So from US perspective Pakistani nuclear doctrine is a lot less aggressive and hence safer. Involvement of some of our nuclear scientists in illicit trade was an unfortunate thing and US feels that Pakistani government has clamped down on such incidents.

Are you for real?

This is US accepting a nuke deal with India:
Post nuclear deal, first US reactor is bound for Gujarat - Indian Express

This is them denying one with Pakistan:
N-deal for Pak? US denies, India remains anxious - Times Of India

As one of the articles states a reactor is being built in Gujarat as we speak. Pakistanis are going to be dying of load-shedding soon thanks to our benevolent allies from whom we must rely on handouts to survive.

Americans have major benefits from the Indo-US deal.

I will try not to laugh.

A. The first and major benefit is that once India is producing 25% of its electricity, it will think twice before exploding a nuclear device.

Hilarious. I don't even know what I can say about this???

B. It will also stop India from developing indigenous tech that it would need to develop had it remained under the sanctions and no support from the USA.

Indeed. I hope the Hyde Act really applies. But it is suspicious when the same deal has been denied to us. Shah Mahmood Qureshi said the same thing.

C. The biggest benefit for the USA is that it can sell turnkey nuclear plants worth $2-3 billion each. Thanks to the hardworking Indians in their service and manufacturing sectors, Indian government is flush with cash. Not sure how long the cash will survive, but if does, then USA and its allies will make sure they get a share. Also this is one of the many ways USA can get cash and to some degree balance the trade deficit with India.

One question. Are you a representative of the US or Pakistan?

D. Benefit for the USA is that Indian nuclear program and defense industry will slowly get tied into Western system, reducing the chance of future confrontation with India, and further increasing Indian view of its dominance in the Indian ocean. Which by the way is more psychological than practical. No power in the world can stop American navy from overwhelming any part of the global control of the seas/oceans including Indian ocean.

One question again? What is it that is stopping them having the same deal with us. Its differential treatment and its as clear as a slow-mo whack on the head with a studded club.

If Pakistan had cash, USA would offer similar deal to Pakistan without any hesitation. Pakistanis unfortunately have used ethnic nationalism and religious fanaticism to destroy our exports to the West. Few Westerners want to even transit through Karachi. They fly straight to Shanghai, and Mumbai.

Exactly. US had no role in anything wrong did it?

Shanghai brings another important aspect in this discussion.

Many Pakistani (and pro-Pakistani) analysts do not bring China's purchase of US nuclear plants in the analysis. China has been buying US nuclear plants long before India. Again that is purely a way for Americans to get back some of the cash that Chinese earn from Sino-US trade.

These plants are typically 1000 MW and sold for $2-3 billion on turnkey basis. It is very hard to copy that technology or smuggle anything out of these plants. So it is "relatively safe" bet for the USA. For Pakistan, the financial situation is dire. We can all see that if we are dying to get $6 billion to remain afloat for next 6 months, how would we pay for additional $3 billion for each plant we buy?

On loan we can do it and the Pakistani government has expressed wishes that it wants a civilian nuclear agreement with India to end the power crisis. What should I do? Bang my head against a wall to prove this?

Pakistan makes fresh bid for civil nuclear deal with US | Pakistan Today | Latest news | Breaking news | Pakistan News | World news | Business | Sport and Multimedia

That brings us to the question that one may ask. What should Pakistan do?

Be a slave of course so that people like us keep suffering...

Well here are few suggestions.

1. Pakistanis should not panic. it is not the end of the world
2. We should not overplay Pak-Chinese nuclear plant deals.
3. Chinese plants are much smaller (less than 300 MW), and
4. Chinese cannot deliver them quickly
5. Pakistan does not have cash to pay for the Chinese plants either.
6. Think about signing NPT. Now that India is out of the picture, why we should be the lone holdouts? Had we signed NPT in the middle of Indo-US negotiations, we could have put enormous pressure on India. Unfortunately we lost the opportunity.

I don't understand how the hell India is out of the picture. for 2 jawans killed they just killed a number of villagers and shot dead 3 Pakistani soldiers. Sign the NPT with 3:1 ratio against India. Amazing move for suicide. I could say you are inspired by suicide bombers and want to apply their logic to the nation.

The West and especially France may be willing to loan $3 billion to Pakistan so that we can buy plants from them. That would be possible only if we are willing to sign the NPT.

I am tired of discussing 1 point when I raised 12. Question is why did the US refuse us a deal that they allowed India? Simple question? The money is not an issue. I proved it. The issue is we are a second class ally and a tissue paper as Imran Khan stated to be used and discarded.

The bottom line is that Pakistan needs to take a well-thought out approach to this, and who knows we may come ahead in this game.peace

These are the points I made in the post:

1) Nuke deal with India but refused to Pakistan
2) Davis kills 2 Pakistanis and escapes. There is no proof of Afia being a terrorist and still in jail and will be there forever.
3) Fazlullah hiding in Kunar. Faqir Mohammed's (Ex-Bajaur Chief's) bases in Afghanistan.
4) US refusal to condemn India for the Siachen incursion but raising an outcry on the Kargil one which was made by fauji's after the Siachen debacle when they took 1000 miles of our land.
5) USA's offer to sell better quality F16's to India compared to what they sold us.
6) Framing of Pakistani innocents in the name of terrorism-Seen it, researched it.
7) Maltreatment of Pakistanis in airports and hounding of Pakistani political Organizations in north America. Even secular ones. Yes-this is the only thing they are good at.
8) Support for dictators in Pakistani land. 3 major ones had their backing. Zia was the one who Islamicized Pakistan with their blessing in case you did not notice.
9) Presler Amendment. When we were not needed by USA anymore. Cold war over, Afghanistan in ruins but of course the Soviets disgraced as they wanted that is what came. Military and economic cooperation CUT and mark my words IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN-200% chance and I bet on my life when this war on terror is over this will come again. They will harass us even more than they are now.
10) The blame Pakistan suffers on a daily basis. Pakistan is held responsible for every failure. I believe you think we are responsible. Partly I agree, yes. But you do not know about the successes, Ramzir yousuf, Baradar, Khalid Sheikh (top 9/11 terrorist) were all capture by us.
11) Pakistan counting on US support and not getting any in 1971. Weak point? Leave that then. I think it is too. But consider the rest.
12) Add to this the Indian nuclear test smiling Buddha in 74 being ignored by the US while our military and economy being sanctioned.
13) Add to this the framing of Kashmiri activist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai in a false case as an ISI agent in another attempt to malign ISI

You answered only one and there you were proven incorrect and you believe you have proven your point. Also just because I disagree with you or Kraits views on many matters I could call you guys a poor think tank. I do not do that because the purpose of having different think tanks with utterly different views is to have diversity in views. You do not see that unfortunately.

 

[Cheetah786]

@haviZsultan American never created Taliban, American supported all Mujahiddin factions of all ethnicity, Taliban was picked and groomed by Pakistan for strategic depth in Afghanistan.

Americans never created freedom fighters or mujaheddin in Libya yeah right. Americans never created freedom fighters or mujaheddin In Syria yeah right. Americans never created OBL yeah right. Americans didn't Trained and Armed freedom fighters Taliban's or as they were called mujaheddin yeah right.Americans don't protect and support the middle eastern puppets yeah right.

As long as they are doing what the Americans want they are freedom fighters or mujaheddin the day after they are Islamist (new term) or Islamic fundamentalist recent examples. Mali same so called freedom fighters who were used in Libya by west to destroy Libya and were financed by wests Middle eastern puppets are all of sudden hard core Islamic terrorist or Islamist now as they threatened western backed corrupt governments .Now the same west is their bombing the same yesterdays Libyan freedom fighters and calling them extremist.

you will remain freedom fighter or mujaheddin if you are willing to kill or blow up people for western interest but the day you threatened western puppets or question their authority you are a terrorist.

If you don't no what strategic depth is please stop commenting on it. i suggest read up on strategic depth on these forums their are some articles explain what it means in reality.

Americans can deny all the want or hold their breath till the cows come home it doesn't changes the reality they used Afghans and pakistani to win the cold war.
They new very well how too convince the majority by simply turning the cold war into a religious war again here they used their Middle eastern puppets to convince People to fight on their behalf.

Saudis get to spread their influence Americans get The job done with total deniability win win situation for both Jews i mean Saudi get to destroy Muslim nations and Americans get new targets to hit plus justification to spend billions upon billions for the military industry.

 

[KRAIT]

@FaujHistorian Sorry, I didn't clear whom I referred to. But you judged correctly. My question was for Pakistani people, not just PDF but what is evident from so many issues addressed in Media.

You gave a good reply. I didn't expect one liner and you didn't disappointed. Thanks a lot.

Can you tell me about if there is change in this approach in new generation ? Are they looking for other reasons rather than putting blame on everyone especially so called evil Zionists ? From your experience and what you have observed.

Are these young minds want to change something or rather look for opportunity to escape the society where they were brought in but never agreed with it due to more exposure to information from other sources which made them look at things from different POV.

 

[Cheetah786]

How so ??
By supplying volumes of aid......? or by cleaning your mess through drone strikes........?

Aid what Aid u mean payments to servants that never makes it to pakistan and stays in American banks. Its funny you say they are cleaning up our mess yet Afghanistan the country they control remains at war decades and billions later its funny how they lone super power cant clear what they control but are in pakistan controlling our mess.

@FaujHistorian Sorry, I didn't clear whom I referred to. But you judged correctly. My question was for Pakistani people, not just PDF but what is evident from so many issues addressed in Media.

You gave a good reply. I didn't expect one liner and you didn't disappointed. Thanks a lot.

Can you tell me about if there is change in this approach in new generation ? Are they looking for other reasons rather than putting blame on everyone especially so called evil Zionists ? From your experience and what you have observed.

Are these young minds want to change something or rather look for opportunity to escape the society where they were brought in but never agreed with it due to more exposure to information from other sources which made them look at things from different POV.

Krait you are funny you are asking extremist conservative Zia supporter to answer on behalf of Liberals what do u think the answer would be.

 

[muse]

It is indeed a "unique" understanding of "Comme" that they should be the ones arguing that to avoid a Khuni Inqilab", the Pakistani economy needs to be one that creates Opportunity for ordinary Pakistanis - God Forbid.

I hope more and more Pakistanis become familiar with the views associated with a segment of the officer corps where in the original patriots who sacrificed for the creation of Pakistan are now referred to as "economic migrants" - most interesting - unique.

 

[KRAIT]

Aid what Aid u mean payments to servants that never makes it to pakistan and stays in American banks. Its funny you say they are cleaning up our mess yet Afghanistan the country they control remains at war decades and billions later its funny how they lone super power cant clear what they control but are in pakistan controlling our mess.Krait you are funny you are asking extremist conservative Zia supporter to answer on behalf of Liberals what do u think the answer would be.

Well one can easily find answers to this question from liberal but if you say he is extremist conservative, I would like to know how he responds and what he say ?

Isn't it the whole point of forum ?

But thanks for your answer. I will look at his answer by considering him both, extremist conservative and liberal.

 

[FaujHistorian]

....
These are the points I made in the post:

1) Nuke deal with India but refused to Pakistan
..Show me $2-3 billion cash, like India and China did, and you will have the plant.If you want one for free and without signing NPT, then it ain't happening.



2) Davis kills 2 Pakistanis and escapes. There is no proof of Afia being a terrorist and still in jail and will be there forever.
..Diplomatic staff is always let go. He was clearly working for the US consulate Lahore..


3) Fazlullah hiding in Kunar. Faqir Mohammed's (Ex-Bajaur Chief's) bases in Afghanistan.
..We need to send in SSG and few F-16 + cobras and take out that SOB. No need to cry like a little baby.Even a tiny Israel can take out its enemies, why you insist we behave like Eunuchs?

4) US refusal to condemn India for the Siachen incursion but raising an outcry on the Kargil one which was made by fauji's after the Siachen debacle when they took 1000 miles of our land.
..Valid point. But do remember, our marde-momin Zial Huq himself was non-chalant that Sichain is not a big deal, Ghas ka tinka nahin ugta wahan par (even a blade of grass doesn't grow there). Show me where we the Paks raised voice in UN about Siachin when India invaded it? And why Pak government treated this as a non-issue?.

Kargil issue became hot because India was ready to go full scale war against us. They used every weapon in their arsenal to dislodge our guys from there. Few more days and there could have been a war. This is what prompted everyone in the world including China to take note.

Had we threatened a full scale war on Siachin, the world back then would have take a note too.

Don't complain now that "chiryan chug gain khait" When the water is already under the bridge


5) USA's offer to sell better quality F16's to India compared to what they sold us.

..France sold better latest mirages to India as well. What's new in the arms deals among countries? India was paying cash, and every company in the world was lining up to sell stuff. Quit moaning and start working to make cash for Pak. Then we too will have a say..

6) Framing of Pakistani innocents in the name of terrorism-Seen it, researched it.

..Millions of Paks live and prosper in USA. If 5-10 were caught and prosecuted as US citizens and residents, then why would you cry about them?.

7) Maltreatment of Pakistanis in airports and hounding of Pakistani political Organizations in north America. Even secular ones. Yes-this is the only thing they are good at.

..Again millions of Pakistanis go in and out of America. Few of them are questioned, but 99% of them pass through like the rest of the world travelers. Fix your attitude, don't act like a criminal and the world will treat you nicely.

8) Support for dictators in Pakistani land. 3 major ones had their backing. Zia was the one who Islamicized Pakistan with their blessing in case you did not notice.

. We put dicatators up, the world (and not just USA) will work with them, we put politicians up and the world will work with them. Not sure why you repeat lowly conspiracy theories about a straightforward issue.

9) Presler Amendment. When we were not needed by USA anymore. Cold war over, Afghanistan in ruins but of course the Soviets disgraced as they wanted that is what came. Military and economic cooperation CUT and mark my words IT WILL HAPPEN AGAIN-200% chance and I bet on my life when this war on terror is over this will come again. They will harass us even more than they are now.

. We were making the bomb. Weren't we? Be honest about yourself first then complain about others.

10) The blame Pakistan suffers on a daily basis. Pakistan is held responsible for every failure. I believe you think we are responsible. Partly I agree, yes. But you do not know about the successes, Ramzir yousuf, Baradar, Khalid Sheikh (top 9/11 terrorist) were all capture by us.

..NY Times will print anti-Pak stories and so will Washington post. They are lefties they have to write against everyone that resulted in the down fall of commie jannat Soviet Union. Read the source and its political inclination before crying hoarse. .

11) Pakistan counting on US support and not getting any in 1971. Weak point? Leave that then. I think it is too. But consider the rest.

.If our mission in UN was tearing apart resolutions, and if our own army was not ready to make the deal, why to blame others? Our leadership including Yahya were happy to rid of BDesh. Show me where Pak army asked US to help evacuate our soldiers? And what was possible source to get 90,000 civilians and soldiers out?

The way it looked and how it was on the ground that Pakistan had lost control even on the Western front. Read What were the fears of US admin about losing the West wing as well. Read Mr. Read first..


12) Add to this the Indian nuclear test smiling Buddha in 74 being ignored by the US while our military and economy being sanctioned.

.Not sure about 74, but in India was immediately sanctioned in the 98-99. Clinton begged Pak not to explode and offered tones of goodies. We refused. So don't come here and cry..



13) Add to this the framing of Kashmiri activist Syed Ghulam Nabi Fai in a false case as an ISI agent in another attempt to malign ISI

..low level operatives get sanctioned. Fai should have followed all the rules. You cross a red light once and don't get a ticket. That doesn't mean you won't be ticketed on your 2nd or 3rd or 4th offense.



This is obviously a littany of accusations with no study of the historical facts. But I know this list is very popular among Islamists and communists in Pakistan.


peace

 

[muse]

It's really simple - you want to change peoples mind? Offer them policies that do not insult their intelligence -- Look, just exactly what is the substance of US policy towards Pakistan - examine this and you will have your answer - but if for "psychological" reasons you are persuaded that there is a poison well somewhere that these people are drinking from and all that needs to be done is to stop them, then of course WOT is always going to the vehicle of choice.

For the US in Pakistan, less is more - one more time for effect - Less is MORE -- just go and look at the lines for visas to US - so how does not explain this disconnect?? on one hand people are obviously making the choice that to visit or have a chance to live in the US is to create a better life for themselves and their progeny, and on the other hand this strong disapproval of US policy?

The things to look at is not just US policy but also Pakistan policy - the attitude towards US policy is a direct result of Pakistan's structured helplessness and duplicity -- whom does this structured helplessness and duplicity help, whose interest are promoted?? Obviously, not the ordinary person, all they get from this is humiliation and disassociation - why would they support a armed forces and government that is hand in glove with the US and at the same time claiming that they are against what the US has been doing ??

Will the upcoming elections change things in so far as attitudes towards US policy are concerned? No, how can they with out changing the structure of the economy for which a change in the nature of politics is a necessary requirement.

 

[FaujHistorian]

@FaujHistorian Sorry, I didn't clear whom I referred to. But you judged correctly. My question was for Pakistani people, not just PDF but what is evident from so many issues addressed in Media.

You gave a good reply. I didn't expect one liner and you didn't disappointed. Thanks a lot.

Can you tell me about if there is change in this approach in new generation ? Are they looking for other reasons rather than putting blame on everyone especially so called evil Zionists ? From your experience and what you have observed.

Are these young minds want to change something or rather look for opportunity to escape the society where they were brought in but never agreed with it due to more exposure to information from other sources which made them look at things from different POV.

Young generation in Pakistan is moving ahead with full force as you would expect from a highly educated English speaking group in a HUGE country of 200 million.

This is evident more in Punjabi speaking generation.

Urdu Speaking generation is still being butchered by the goons of Altaf mota chor, Bhatta khor

And Peshawar-Charsada pashtu speaking generation is still in the grip of leftist ANP and terrorist TTP on the other. So the struggle is still on.

Conspiracy theories about zionism, fisk-ism, and chomsky-ism are still prevalent throughout Pakistani educated elite. This is what people here 24/7 on the Trashy TV talk shows. But Mullahs are clearly losing steam, and so is Islamism.

However the young generation has to establish themselves somehow earn a living, so they are moving full speed ahead with top notch effort towards education.

I am confident that Pakistan has a very bright future.


peace

 

[FaujHistorian]

It is indeed a "unique" understanding of "Comme" that they should be the ones arguing that to avoid a Khuni Inqilab", the Pakistani economy needs to be one that creates Opportunity for ordinary Pakistanis - God Forbid.

I hope more and more Pakistanis become familiar with the views associated with a segment of the officer corps where in the original patriots who sacrificed for the creation of Pakistan are now referred to as "economic migrants" - most interesting - unique.

Muse bhai,

Here is a quick check for you.

Research your family.

If they came to Pakistan in 1947. They truly scarificed and left for Pakistan.
If they came to Pakistan anytime thereafter, then they were economic-migrants.


I have done my research, and yes upto 90% came to Pakistan 1948 and after.


Unless we do this honest study of the Urdu Speaking group, we'll continue to be exploited by the likes of Altaf mota chor Bhatta khor.



peace

 

[muse]

Muse "Bhai"? Sons of the same mother are we?

Khair, India lost it's Muslim Middle class in 1947, and you seek to argue that these people saw "economic opportunity " in leaving their businesses and lives and move to an even more less developed area ?? Unique, sir, your analysis is certainly unique.

Anyway, in reading your last post I found:

"However the young generation has to establish themselves somehow earn a living,

Somehow, huh? Many are opting for any opportunity to escape Pakistan to seek a living anywhere it would be possible - Is this the reason Pakistan was created ?? For whom is this Pakistan economy created for??

Historian, clearly history is that collection of facts we choose to recall - however, instead of arguing methodology, I would encourage you get about in Pakistan and listen to what people are talking about

 

[indushek]

We are deeply involved with the US and certainly not in the way that you have outlined, in fact there are even USMIL and Contractors on Pakistani facilities in Pakistan (please don't ask for details, I will not provide them, but if you can, accept that I am not telling you lies, for any reason)

Pakistan's security relationship with the US no longer serves Pakistani interests, however; a significant portion of the officer corps disagrees with this assertion, they see the contrary - I would suggest that what they really see is not Pakistani interests but their personal interests and while I will grant that this is less than cordial, it seems to me that the issue is one which is beyond cordial, the case these officers make is known to most all, you articulate them and on Indian member also high lighted them (they run the show, it's with them or against them and if it's against them, they will destroy you, anyway, something to that effect)

I would suggest that this is an oversimplification - and even if it is not, Pakistan ought to have nothing to do with the US project to reshape the Muslim world (Mali will be the 8th Muslim majority country attacked by the West)

My position is that Pakistan must end it's dependency on the US for the access and support t offers at IFI and the military grants it offers in return for detailed dossisers on Pakistani officer corps, in all three services - that to be able to end this dependency, Pakistan need to under take economic reforms and that these are only possible in a politics that is not the so called "Democracy" which enables the politcal elite and punishes the Pakistani populace and state.

Dear Sir,

I have been a fan of your posts for long long time. Now don't think that i am trying to say you are wrong but i see certain fallacies of basic nature in your posts on this thread.

You can either view my post as that of an adversary (since i belong to India) or you can just look at my argument as a member of PDF.

Firstly haviz and you are saying that, people want Pakistan to detach from America as they have used Pakistan and humiliated them etc etc. I agree with this completely any patriot will feel the same for his country. Now there are certain basic facts which will not let Pakistan achieve this in short term but you can do it in long term if u can implement the necessary solutions.

1) You say that America has used you, however the fault lies with Pakistan not with America. You can say that it was the rulers yes but the public kept quiet till now didn't they?? Also it is only now when the WOT with its side effects has engulfed Pakistan and because of the differences between America and your elite has behaved like a bully (it is the only super power now) that people are up in arms. Even this is your (i mean the ruling class) mistake as neither military nor the civilian gov has taken stand in the strongest sense except closing supply route. If you Pakistan want it you can pull from WOT right now and i mean this second, you just need some spine. Regarding America looking after its interest any country would do that. What Pakistan did in Afghanistan after US withdrawal after soviet defeat is the same.

2) I am seeing that many are mixing the internal problems of Pakistan with this WOT.

I have been watching many discussions on Pakistan economy and the economists in Pakistan have stated on your TV programs that Pakistan was always under debt from the inception.

What they have stated as the real problems are low tax to gdp ratio (till now it seems that the agriculture produce and the land is held by jagirdars and they don't pay taxes, and then the services don't pay taxes etc etc), mismanagement of public enterprises, balance of payments problems etc etc.

It seems that in last five years itself your country has added some 6+ billion$ external debt. This is more than what u acquired in last 60 years it seems.

Now the law makers in your country are the ones with conflict of interest as they are the ones who will loose when u start these changes so they will not allow.

In energy your country has the distinction of adding the costliest power to national grid. Without energy no industries, no foreign companies want to invest with the rekodiq issue. Your cj wants to catch the companies investing than the people responsible.

If these kind of problems beset you, where will u start the change?? outside or inside?? America has nothing to do with these.

3) Being at war fks up any country no matter how big, for a country with such problems it is suicidal. The cascading effect of mismanagement is hitting you after all this time. The WOT in a way has acted as catalyst vis a vis your internal problems, if not now these would have surfaced few years down the line. Reason being you can't shoot your self and still be fine for long .

Helplessness looking at the effects of the actions taken by ruling class till date is making many angry and sad in Pakistan. Americans are being used by propagandists with half truths (they mix internal problems of Pakistan with the effects of American misdeeds to make it sound real) as the evil one. If America leaves a year after and completely pulls out from Afghanistan and breaks off with Pakistan will a super power sit quiet ?? The present world financial order is still controlled by them and even Chinese will not want to upset the Americans after certain level.

Hope you consider my points as discussion points and not a trolling ones.

 

[Ayush]

Dear Haviz,

Please be reasonable. Piling up dung on the super power of the world will only hurt one party. And that is We the Pakistanis.


You bring up so many issues against USA without deep thinking. Popular street lingo should never be the way to go for a "Think Tank" even if he is a Jr. one.

Pretty much every issue listed in your "complaints" against USA is nothing new. Every Jummah khutba by 2-bit Mullahs say the same thing.

So where is your contribution, your thinking independent of the street level khawancha farosh 3rd grade and 3rd rate so-called intellectuals?

Where is it.

You talk about nuclear deals of US-India. have you ever gone deeper than just raising slogans?


We the Pakistanis need to calm down.

USA has always known that India is the instigator and the main culprit in the regions when it comes to the nuclear tests. Pakistan never initiated nor threatened anyone with nukes. The only exception was a "retaliatory" response to Indians. So from US perspective Pakistani nuclear doctrine is a lot less aggressive and hence safer. Involvement of some of our nuclear scientists in illicit trade was an unfortunate thing and US feels that Pakistani government has clamped down on such incidents.

Americans have major benefits from the Indo-US deal.

A. The first and major benefit is that once India is producing 25% of its electricity, it will think twice before exploding a nuclear device.

B. It will also stop India from developing indigenous tech that it would need to develop had it remained under the sanctions and no support from the USA.

C. The biggest benefit for the USA is that it can sell turnkey nuclear plants worth $2-3 billion each. Thanks to the hardworking Indians in their service and manufacturing sectors, Indian government is flush with cash. Not sure how long the cash will survive, but if does, then USA and its allies will make sure they get a share. Also this is one of the many ways USA can get cash and to some degree balance the trade deficit with India.

D. Benefit for the USA is that Indian nuclear program and defense industry will slowly get tied into Western system, reducing the chance of future confrontation with India, and further increasing Indian view of its dominance in the Indian ocean. Which by the way is more psychological than practical. No power in the world can stop American navy from overwhelming any part of the global control of the seas/oceans including Indian ocean.


If Pakistan had cash, USA would offer similar deal to Pakistan without any hesitation. Pakistanis unfortunately have used ethnic nationalism and religious fanaticism to destroy our exports to the West. Few Westerners want to even transit through Karachi. They fly straight to Shanghai, and Mumbai.

Shanghai brings another important aspect in this discussion.

Many Pakistani (and pro-Pakistani) analysts do not bring China's purchase of US nuclear plants in the analysis. China has been buying US nuclear plants long before India. Again that is purely a way for Americans to get back some of the cash that Chinese earn from Sino-US trade.

These plants are typically 1000 MW and sold for $2-3 billion on turnkey basis. It is very hard to copy that technology or smuggle anything out of these plants. So it is "relatively safe" bet for the USA. For Pakistan, the financial situation is dire. We can all see that if we are dying to get $6 billion to remain afloat for next 6 months, how would we pay for additional $3 billion for each plant we buy?

That brings us to the question that one may ask. What should Pakistan do?

Well here are few suggestions.

1. Pakistanis should not panic. it is not the end of the world
2. We should not overplay Pak-Chinese nuclear plant deals.
3. Chinese plants are much smaller (less than 300 MW), and
4. Chinese cannot deliver them quickly
5. Pakistan does not have cash to pay for the Chinese plants either.
6. Think about signing NPT. Now that India is out of the picture, why we should be the lone holdouts? Had we signed NPT in the middle of Indo-US negotiations, we could have put enormous pressure on India. Unfortunately we lost the opportunity.

The West and especially France may be willing to loan $3 billion to Pakistan so that we can buy plants from them. That would be possible only if we are willing to sign the NPT.

The bottom line is that Pakistan needs to take a well-thought out approach to this, and who knows we may come ahead in this game.


peace

truly,a think tank.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Muse "Bhai"? Sons of the same mother are we?

Khair, India lost it's Muslim Middle class in 1947, and you seek to argue that these people saw "economic opportunity " in leaving their businesses and lives and move to an even more less developed area ?? Unique, sir, your analysis is certainly unique.

Anyway, in reading your last post I found:

Somehow, huh? Many are opting for any opportunity to escape Pakistan to seek a living anywhere it would be possible - Is this the reason Pakistan was created ?? For whom is this Pakistan economy created for??

Historian, clearly history is that collection of facts we choose to recall - however, instead of arguing methodology, I would encourage you get about in Pakistan and listen to what people are talking about

Bhai was to offer and pay respect. Nothing else. Perhaps a term of endearment too. Who knows.

We the mortals sometimes get caught up in foolish arguments and totally forget that afterall we are all linked somehow, perhaps through human genome, perhaps through the soil where our forefathers came from, perhaps from the culture we grew up with. Who knows. But may be and I say may be we should stop once in a while, take a breather and say hello, Is it you? my pal? if nothing else surely a PDFian! Surely!


Ok enough of this emotional mumbo jumbo.

Back to the topic.

the short answer to your question. yes. For millions of Biharis and UPites, who came to Pakistan in 1948 and later, Pakistan offered jobs and property that had no match in their ancestral BIMARU states.

Karachi was sort of Ellis Island of NY for lakhs of poverty stricken Urdu Speakers when a newly minted Liaqat Ali Khan gauranteed Federal jobs and Hindu property by then vacated and thus up for grabs.

You gotta read what Ch Khaliqu Zaman's family did when they occupied and pilfered the Hindu properties especially Baraf Khanas (Ice factories) of Lahore and Karachi.

Baraf Khanas? What the heck were those? Well for those newbees born in the 90s, we in the Indian subcontinent had a huge appetite of ice in the summer months all thanks to the gora rule.

We needed this ice to cool down our sharbats (sugary drinks) our rooh afza and our sikhanjbeen (lemonade) and no there was no refrigerator that you get some ice cubes from.

Instead you went to the market, and there the soda shops the ice shops would have these huge blocks of ice covered in thick cloth to prevent it from melting too fast.

Then you would pay the price and the ice-man would use a pick to crack away chunks of ice that you brought home and made your rooh afza, your sikanjbeens, your coca cola.

Sadly with the advent of freezers, the ice-man is gone pretty much and so are the factories for most part.

But back in 1940s if you got a baraf khana alloted by hook or crook, you became an instant millionaire and this is what Ch Khaliq uzzaman and his family was doing without any shame, any hesitation.

I am sure it will shock many urdu speakers, because Khaliqu Zaman was afterall a freedom fighter of nth degree. How could he delve so low, how could get into this business of allotments of evacuee property? he was a saint, he was a hero, he was a freedom fighter.

But it did happen. the urdu speakers did arrive in 1948 and later on until 1951 and yes they did loot and pilfer the evacuee property and yes they did try to usurp majority of Federal and provincial jobs in public sector.

These stories will only be heard if "hum mohajir to hain" attitude will be replaced by honest to goodness pro-Pakistani nationalist view.

But as long as we remain ignorant of our true past, as long as we refuse to see how poor our cousins are that are still in Bihar and UP, as long as we burry our head in the proverbial sands of mohajirism and Karachi-ism, we will remain a slave to the likes of Altaf mota chor, bhatta khor.

Sadly!