The growing agitation of Pakistanis against USA

[muse]

Dude there were no Mujahidin and there are no Taliban. It's a nomenclature issue. When they were fighting for American cause, they were "freedom fighters", "The Braveheart", "The Mujahidin". Then, when the same people changed their allegiances, they became enemy combatants and a new badge was slapped on them, "The Taliban"!

We didn't help the situation either, we played right into their hands and created two sub-division, "good" and "bad" Taliban.

I think you are mistaken - Mujahidden and Talib movements are two different creatures - the Talib movement arose as a reaction tot he excesses of the Mujahideen after the Soviet departure and the in-fighting that arose after the soviet departure.

 

[aakash_2410]

USA has always known that India is the instigator and the main culprit in the regions when it comes to the nuclear tests. Pakistan never initiated nor threatened anyone with nukes. The only exception was a "retaliatory" response to Indians. So from US perspective Pakistani nuclear doctrine is a lot less aggressive and hence safer. Involvement of some of our nuclear scientists in illicit trade was an unfortunate thing and US feels that Pakistani government has clamped down on such incidents.

Not true mate. India never instigated anything.

India's nuclear test was just a response to China's nuclear test in 1964. And bear in mind that India had recently been to war with China 1962. So Indian leadership (Read: Nehru) saw nukes as a 'MUST HAVE'.

 

[Hyperion]

Mate, we are not arguing about the salient differences between the Mujahidin and the Taliban. What I am trying to say is that, if the same people had sided with the Yanks after 9/11, they would still be the "good guys", and no demonization of the movement would've followed. In-fact, several hollywood movies would have been made to honor the "magnificent" Taliban.

It's just us the sentimental Pakistanis, who think and think about reasons and try to justify things to ourselves, whereas others just conclude their business, by hook or by crook.

I think you are mistaken - Mujahidden and Talib movements are two different creatures - the Talib movement arose as a reaction tot he excesses of the Mujahideen after the Soviet departure and the in-fighting that arose after the soviet departure.

 

[muse]

What I am trying to say is that, if the same people had sided with the Yanks after 9/11, they would still be the "good guys", and no demonization of the movement would've followed. In-fact, several hollywood movies would have been made to honor the "magnificent" Taliban

The die for the Taliban was cast much earlier than 9/11 - research will allow you to conclude --- and the same for the Pakistanis, the Pressler was just a teaser for the nuclear stuff, and when that did not work, the evil khan network proliferating nukes, all these at different times but the same purpose, 9/11 or no 9/11.

 

[KingMamba]

@haviZsultan American never created Taliban, American supported all Mujahiddin factions of all ethnicity, Taliban was picked and groomed by Pakistan for strategic depth in Afghanistan.

All the Taliban's soldiers were ex Mujahiddin, Mullah Omar himself was mujahiddin and he lost his eye against the Soviets. So yes Taliban originally did get training from USA but this is 12+ years later so a lot of their young members have little to no training.

 

[KingMamba]

Is there any recent sucessful model (last 50 years) for how a society rids itself of the controlling aspects of a feudal or post-feudal elite? It seems like Pakistan must find a process for achieving a much stronger (politically and economically) middle class if it is to change for the better. Is Chili a potential model?

Strong leadership at the head is key, the reforms done by the Shah of Iran are less than 50 years old and ended the feudal system of Iran.

White Revolution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think you are mistaken - Mujahidden and Talib movements are two different creatures - the Talib movement arose as a reaction tot he excesses of the Mujahideen after the Soviet departure and the in-fighting that arose after the soviet departure.

They were made up of many of the same fighters of the soviet era war.

 

[Da-Bang]

Pakistanis hate everybody, they should first give up extremism and make a moderate society before anything else.

Right now seems like if any body shout Jihad or Islam in danger all of Pakistan goes into a mad frenzy.

 

[Dushmann]

A lot of members are calling for disengagement with US and suggesting how to do that as if it is in Pakistan's hands to make the decision. Didn't US herself start disengaging with Pakistan in the 90s, untill the twin towers fell and bombs started going off in trains in Europe, all the trails leading to Pakistan? Pakistan didn't decide to join WOT out of her own choice, it had to. And leaving it halfway may not be in Pakistan's hands.

 

[tarrar]

US & her allies are a direct threat to Pakistan.

 

[LiberalAtheist]

US & her allies are a direct threat to Pakistan.

Yes be afraid be very afraid. our sole purpose in life is to agonize the nation and people of Pakistan.

now seriously speaking you guys are more dangerous to a prosperous and democratic Afghanistan than the Taliban themselves seeing how you shelter them sort of like an insurance policy once we leave for good.

 

[FaujHistorian]

US & her allies are a direct threat to Pakistan.

Turkey is a HUGE ally of USA.

So Turkey is a "direct threat" to Pakistan? eh?

 

[KRAIT]

Turkey is a HUGE ally of USA. So Turkey is a "direct threat" to Pakistan? eh?

@FaujHistorian Yaar I have a question. Why does most of the people think that US and rest of the world are conspiring against them ?

 

[muse]

A lot of members are calling for disengagement with US and suggesting how to do that as if it is in Pakistan's hands to make the decision. Didn't US herself start disengaging with Pakistan in the 90s, untill the twin towers fell and bombs started going off in trains in Europe, all the trails leading to Pakistan? Pakistan didn't decide to join WOT out of her own choice, it had to. And leaving it halfway may not be in Pakistan's hands.

One had hoped for a more insightful post - you ask why Pakistan had to be "forced" into Wot - because WoT is a cover for dangerous policies that make the world less secure -- don't think so? Well perhaps you can explain why after 11 years of war in Muslim majority countries, the problem persists, why is it that WoT is like toothpaste, one squeeze seems to result in the problem arising elsewhere and in response another intervention is justified.

Don't get me wrong, I understand the frustration on not being able to solve a problem, and I do agree with the suggestion that armed Salafist takhfiri ideology is a problem - PRIMARILY FOR MUSLIMS, not non-Muslims, after all, look at who they target, it's primarily Muslims - coincidence??? 11 years of coincidence, is a lot of coincidence, don't ya think???

And please do not misrepresent, we are not suggesting disengaging from the US, we want the very best of relations with the US, however, the very best relations with the US are commercial and civilizational, not one limited to a security relationship whicj alienates populations from their governments.

 

[Backbencher]

US & her allies are a direct threat to Pakistan.

How so ??
By supplying volumes of aid......? or by cleaning your mess through drone strikes........?

 

[FaujHistorian]

@FaujHistorian Yaar I have a question. Why does most of the people think that US and rest of the world are conspiring against them ?

Not sure if I can answer this question especially when someone asks about why "Most people are being anti-USA"


However this question perhaps can be answered in much smaller context of Pakistani politics.

So if the question is "Why so many Pakistani posters on PDF think USA is is conspiring against them",

then some evidence could be gathered to explain away the reasons.


Most of the Pakistani posters here represents 3 unique groups from educated elite from Pakistan.

1. Urdu Speaking group (It is the smallest but still most dominant in Pakistani political thought)
2. Punjabi group (It is the largest group but its intellectuals tend to behave as if they are the smallest)
3. Peshwar-Charsadda Pashtu speaking group (it is good size group and it is pretty vocal too).




#1- this one is easy to explain. I live with them 24/7 and know at least 4 generations first hand.

Urdu Speaking group in Pakistan is dominated by the economic-migrants and their descendants from Bihar and UP. Majority of us are highly educated, and very resourceful and hence successful in Pakistan. However 4 generation ago, we were extremely poor bottom of the barrel folks in our native lands of Bihar and UP. And we are still carrying the genes of anti-establishment, anti-land owner, anti-factory owner sentiments. These deeply ingrained thoughts make us behave like a super duper commie red. However being a Muslim means we cannot be overtly commie. Sadly the days of being overtly commie are gone with Faiz. Now we hide behind Islamism but our Islam is just skin deep. Inside we are hard core surkhas.

And you know what is #1 characteristic of a Surkha (red)?
Answer? Read towards the end to find the answer


#2- Punjabi speaking group: One would think this group being dominated by large land owners would be anything but Surkha. Well my friend, that is not the case. Modern educated Punjabi is very much like a lost cow when it comes to the intellectual bearing. The reason for being lost is that from the times even before Dr. Iqbal, Punjabi educated elite was totally locked out of city jobs and urban opportunities and city colleges by the then dominated Punjabi-Hindu elite. You look at the statistics of college students before and after 1947, you look at the number of judges in Punjabi courts, you look at the number of insurance companies and banks before and after 1947 and you will find out that Punjabi educated elite developed this strong anti-factory and anti-big-business thoughts that dominated its behavior in the formative years of 19th and 20th centuries. This made Punjabi educated elite move towards communism and Islamic fascism in a unique way. That it could not go against large land owners. Hey they were their own. and it could not go against pro-West army because that too was one of their own institutions.

However those Punjabis who left the motherland and settled in UK and the West, moved away from pro-West army and in a generation or two became Westernized commies. And now they live and breed in the West but they are hard core Fisk-ians (Followers of leftie Robert Fisk), and Comskyan (hard core followers of leftie Noam Chomsky).

And guess what Fisk and Chomsky talk about constipated conspiracy theories 24/7, and their Pakistani followers must believe in their prophets aka Fisk and chomsky's constipated conspiracy theories that start with anti-USA stance and end with anti-USA stance.

#3 Peshawar Charsadda Pashtu speaking elite. This elite dominates KPK politics and have done so for the last 100+ years. Bacha Khan the most famous red was one of their top leaders. I can go on for pages to explain why this elite is commie in nature, but hopefully a reference to Bacha Khan should be enough for now.

And you know what is #1 characteristic of a Surkha (red)?


Answer: Well the #1 characteristic of a Surkha (red) is that USA is conspiring against him. And this is what you see on PDF repeated day and night, as in a mad house, shrieking voices against USA and the USA dominated countries.



I guess you perhaps were looking for a shorter one liner sound bite like answer to your question and this post definitely is not a sound bit.

But I hope you and some others will understand the commie underpinning of the hate against the USA when it comes to Pakistani educated elite.


peace