What's new

The Ground-zero mosque, continued

To repeat what I stated earlier.

The whole argument against the construction of this project is built around the point that the sensibilities, the sentiments, the feelings and the emotions of Americans - particularly those who had loved ones killed in 9/11 - would be hurt.

Muslims used the same argument to ask Americans and westerners to not make caricatures of Prophet Muhammad when his caricatures were being drawn and published.

Yet that argument was laughed off and the Americans and westerners were repeatedly stating that being hurt is not a good enough reason to not make the caricatures and that it is their constitutional right to be able to express themselves freely.

We had Draw Muhammad Day, cartoons being published in newspapers, all under the pretext that rights and freedoms were more important than sensibilities, sentiments, and emotions and that sensibilities, sentiments, and emotions were not good enough reasons for not making the cartoons.

Well, what happened to that? You were suggesting that sensibilities, sentiments, and emotions come secondary to the rights and freedoms. It seems to be quite a reversal.

The hypocrisy here is as clear as daylight. The people opposing the project cannot find their way out of the above arguments given. The only counter-arguments I have seen against this argument were red herrings or simplistic. Such as that "the protests against the cartoons were violent" or "that they were just cartoons".
 
All the Senitment Talk is bullshit - When Millions of Muslims said the same thing about Cartoon back then it was backwardness and freedom of speech!Jeypore your hatred for Muslims is evident from your posts.I am sure you won't say anything bad if a Mandir was being built there.
 
Last edited:
An Indian's take on the debate:

The Telegraph - Calcutta (Kolkata) | Opinion | Coercive assimilation
Mukul Kesavan
For an Indian, the controversy about the proposal to build a mosque and cultural centre two blocks from Ground Zero is instructive. When polled, the plan, cleared by municipal authorities in New York, was opposed by a broad majority in America as a whole and by more than half of New York’s famously liberal citizens. Sarah Palin asked its Muslim sponsors to give it up: “Ground Zero Mosque supporters,” she tweeted, “doesn’t it stab you in the heart, as it does ours throughout the heartland? Peaceful Muslims, pls refudiate.”

With the exception of Mayor Bloomberg, who has strongly supported the mosque project, Republicans have lined up behind Palin, driven both by their personal convictions as well as popular feeling, since the mid-term elections due later this year are an opportunity to snatch one house of Congress, possibly both, from the Democrats. President Obama in a Ramazan meeting with American Muslims seemed to endorse the mosque, then ‘clarified’ later that he was merely supporting the right of Muslims to build a place of worship wherever it was allowed by local regulations, and not expressing an opinion on the merits or otherwise of building the mosque in question.

The mosque’s opponents have argued that while there may well be a constitutional right to build, good sense and consideration demand that the right not be exercised. Charles Krauthammer argued that just as the Japanese hadn’t tried to build a Japanese Cultural Centre at Pearl Harbour, Muslim Americans should respect American public opinion enough to walk this proposal back. It wasn’t a freedom of religion issue: Muslims were welcome to build mosques elsewhere — just not next to Ground Zero.

There’s a plausibility to the anti-mosque position. Indians have lived with thin-skinned sensibilities for so long, that we are the world’s champions at airing and understanding hurt feelings. We ban books, criminalize paintings, lean on authors and bully artists because some group’s feelings have been or might be hurt. It’s likely that some desis think that the plan to build the Cordoba House (as the mosque and cultural centre project is called) two blocks away from a site that has come to embody Muslim extremism is offensive and provocative.

Sadanand Dhume, journalist and commentator on fundamentalist Islam, said as much in a television discussion about the proposed mosque. He said that if the mosque’s sponsors were seeking to promote understanding and reconciliation, the mosque near Ground Zero was amongst the stupidest ways of setting about it because the proposal had clearly alienated non-Muslim Americans. Dhume recognized the constitutional right of American Muslims to build the mosque, but made it clear that the people who opposed the exercise of that right were neither bigoted nor unreasonable and the sponsors of the mosque ought to be properly mindful of their feelings.

Barkha Dutt, the anchor for the programme in which Dhume spoke on the controversy, said at the end that a willingness to break out of the straitjacket of political correctness (that is, being open to the idea that the letter of a constitutional right to worship ought not always trump the spirit of sensible accommodation) was a good thing. Put that way, surely Palin and Krauthammer and Dhume are right?

No, they aren’t. They are neither right nor reasonable. Arguments like this always, without exception, represent the thin end of an intolerant, majoritarian wedge.

Dhume, for example, has written elsewhere in praise of Sarkozy’s determination to ban the burqa in France. It’s worth following his arguments in some detail because on the matter of Muslims and the West, Dhume reliably represents the new majoritarianism. In his article for YaleGlobal, a Yale University website, Dhume contrasts Sarkozy’s opposition to the burqa with Obama’s unwillingness to make laws against individual costume, to the latter’s disadvantage. The French parliamentary commission’s report recommending that the burqa be banned in public facilities like buses, the Metro and hospitals, constitutes, according to Dhume, a proper recognition of the ideological threat posed by radical Islam.

The same man who would, for the sake of a majority’s sensibilities, have American Muslims back off from the Cordoba House project, thinks it’s a good thing that France has moved to ban the burqa because the 2,000 women who wear the burqa in that country represent, according to Dhume (and here he approvingly quotes a French legislator), “the tip [of] a black tide of fundamentalism”. Dhume argues that every time a woman in a burqa boards a bus in Paris or enters a public hospital in Lyon, Muslim fundamentalists think they’ve won. Ergo, he concludes grandly, “[r]olling back the burqa contradicts this triumphalist narrative”.

The costume choices of 2,000 women from France’s poorest minority become an existential threat to the West in Dhume’s lurid narrative. And France’s move to partially ban the burqa is not just good in itself, it’s also a sign of other good things to come. Dhume explicitly sees France as the necessary vanguard in the West’s struggle to contain Muslims and Islam: “As a birthplace of the Enlightenment, and the principal political architect of a unified Europe, the French example is a bellwether for other countries on the continent struggling to assimilate large communities of recent Muslim immigrants. The Swiss recently voted to disallow minarets on mosques; and Geert Wilders, Holland’s most popular politician and the maker of the polemical anti-Islam film Fitna, faces a trial over his outspoken criticism of the faith. Newspapers report that Italy, Germany and Denmark, among others, are already considering similar anti-burqa laws.”

Notice, in this passage, the mention of the Swiss prohibition of minarets on mosques. Dhume sees the banning of the burqa in France (and possibly in Italy, Germany and Denmark) and the denial of minarets in Switzerland as part of the same effort in ‘assimilation’. In this world view, Cordoba House near Ground Zero is a bad idea because of the majority thinks it is, in the same way as minarets are a bad idea because a majority of Swiss people think they are. This isn’t a defence of republican virtue; it’s a little paean to to coercive assimilation.

Dhume’s instinctive majoritarianism is explicitly on display when, in the same essay, he argues that France’s aggressive engagement with the burqa is superior to America’s hands-off approach because France’s position “strikes a balance between individual rights and the concerns of the larger community. (According to a poll published in the magazine Le Point, nearly six out of ten French citizens support the ban.)”

So that’s all right then. Armed with this rudimentary compass, Sadanand Dhume sets out to find the West’s moral North and, to no one’s surprise, he consistently reaches a place where — regardless of law, principle or right — minorities properly defer to majority feeling. The same writer who would defend Geert Wilders right to robustly criticize Islam as also the right of Danish cartoonists to lampoon Islam’s prophet, doesn’t expect Western majorities to acknowledge or respect the rights of Muslims to wear what they want or worship where they please. In fact, he sees Western moves to curb those rights as a virtuous defence of republican values.

As I follow the Cordoba House controversy, I know that I’ve been here before. After the Babri Masjid was razed in 1992, a majoritarian common sense evolved about the resolution of the dispute. ‘Reasonable’, ‘moderate’ public men and women argued that Muslims, regardless of the historical merits of the Ramjanmabhoomi case, ought to defer to the Hindu majority’s sensibilities in this one case. To concede the site as a gesture of goodwill would, they argued, earn Muslims enormous credit and disarm militant Hindus. To persist in laying claim to Ayodhya would merely aggravate the dispute, consolidate Hindu militancy and marginalize Muslims.

A decade later, with the Bharatiya Janata Party defeated and out of office, the realpolitik force of that argument is a little dissipated. Not to concede Ayodhya to a violent majoritarian mobilization was clearly the right thing to do at the time for anyone who took republican and constitutional principle seriously. If there’s a lesson to be learnt from the Cordoba House and the Babri Masjid controversies, it is this: if you want to be principled about not ‘appeasing’ minorities, it’s useful not to spend your polemical energies pandering to majorities.
 
I am afraid that Obama be a lost President after this Mosque approval.
What if the mosque is fully built; Obama losses; next President (of-coarse who will be against this Mosque position) will try to demolish it(for even a political gain)......................wht then!! I have right to be afraid
 
We have higlighted how a section of opinion seeks to defame and malign Islam and Muslims worldwide, by arguing that the actions, attitudes and behaviour of a ultra minority of radicals IS the totality of Islam and Muslims and have used this argument to force through whether legislation or public attitudes, that ultimately endanger themselves - Lets for a minute look past the US search for it's moral compass and look at a related issue in this piece datelined New Dehli:


August 16, 2010
The Muslims in the Middle
By WILLIAM DALRYMPLE
New Delhi

PRESIDENT OBAMA’S eloquent endorsement on Friday of a planned Islamic cultural center near the World Trade Center, followed by his apparent retreat the next day, was just one of many paradoxes at the heart of the increasingly impassioned controversy.

We have seen the Anti-Defamation League, an organization dedicated to ending “unjust and unfair discrimination,” seek to discriminate against American Muslims. We have seen Newt Gingrich depict the organization behind the center — the Cordoba Initiative, which is dedicated to “improving Muslim-West relations” and interfaith dialogue — as a “deliberately insulting” and triumphalist force attempting to built a monument to Muslim victory near the site of the twin towers.

Most laughably, we have seen politicians like Rick Lazio, a Republican candidate for New York governor, question whether Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, the principal figure behind the project, might have links to “radical organizations.”

The problem with such claims goes far beyond the fate of a mosque in downtown Manhattan. They show a dangerously inadequate understanding of the many divisions, complexities and nuances within the Islamic world — a failure that hugely hampers Western efforts to fight violent Islamic extremism and to reconcile Americans with peaceful adherents of the world’s second-largest religion.

Most of us are perfectly capable of making distinctions within the Christian world. The fact that someone is a Boston Roman Catholic doesn’t mean he’s in league with Irish Republican Army bomb makers, just as not all Orthodox Christians have ties to Serbian war criminals or Southern Baptists to the murderers of abortion doctors.

Yet many of our leaders have a tendency to see the Islamic world as a single, terrifying monolith. Had the George W. Bush administration been more aware of the irreconcilable differences between the Salafist jihadists of Al Qaeda and the secular Baathists of Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, the United States might never have blundered into a disastrous war, and instead kept its focus on rebuilding post-Taliban Afghanistan while the hearts and minds of the Afghans were still open to persuasion.

Feisal Abdul Rauf of the Cordoba Initiative is one of America’s leading thinkers of Sufism, the mystical form of Islam, which in terms of goals and outlook couldn’t be farther from the violent Wahhabism of the jihadists. His videos and sermons preach love, the remembrance of God (or “zikr”) and reconciliation. His slightly New Agey rhetoric makes him sound, for better or worse, like a Muslim Deepak Chopra. But in the eyes of Osama bin Laden and the Taliban, he is an infidel-loving, grave-worshiping apostate; they no doubt regard him as a legitimate target for assassination.

For such moderate, pluralistic Sufi imams are the front line against the most violent forms of Islam. In the most radical parts of the Muslim world, Sufi leaders risk their lives for their tolerant beliefs, every bit as bravely as American troops on the ground in Baghdad and Kabul do. Sufism is the most pluralistic incarnation of Islam — accessible to the learned and the ignorant, the faithful and nonbelievers — and is thus a uniquely valuable bridge between East and West.

The great Sufi saints like the 13th-century Persian poet Rumi held that all existence and all religions were one, all manifestations of the same divine reality. What was important was not the empty ritual of the mosque, church, synagogue or temple, but the striving to understand that divinity can best be reached through the gateway of the human heart: that we all can find paradise within us, if we know where to look. In some ways Sufism, with its emphasis on love rather than judgment, represents the New Testament of Islam.

While the West remains blind to the divisions and distinctions within Islam, the challenge posed by the Sufi vision of the faith is not lost on the extremists. This was shown most violently on July 2, when the Pakistani Taliban organized a double-suicide bombing of the Data Darbar, the largest Sufi shrine in Lahore, Pakistan’s second-largest city. The attack took place on a Thursday night, when the shrine was at its busiest; 42 people were killed and 175 were injured.

This was only the latest in a series of assaults against Pakistan’s Sufis. In May, Peeru’s Cafe in Lahore, a cultural center where I had recently performed with a troupe of Sufi musicians, was bombed in the middle of its annual festival. An important site in a tribal area of the northwest — the tomb of Haji Sahib of Turangzai, a Sufi persecuted under British colonial rule for his social work — has been forcibly turned into a Taliban headquarters. Two shrines near Peshawar, the mausoleum of Bahadar Baba and the shrine of Abu Saeed Baba, have been destroyed by rocket fire.

Symbolically, however, the most devastating Taliban attack occurred last spring at the shrine of the 17th-century poet-saint Rahman Baba, at the foot of the Khyber Pass in northwest Pakistan. For centuries, the complex has been a place for musicians and poets to gather, and Rahman Baba’s Sufi verses had long made him the national poet of the Pashtuns living on both sides of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. “I am a lover, and I deal in love,” wrote the saint. “Sow flowers,/ so your surroundings become a garden./ Don’t sow thorns; for they will prick your feet./ We are all one body./ Whoever tortures another, wounds himself.”

THEN, about a decade ago, a Saudi-financed religious school, or madrasa, was built at the end of the path leading to the shrine. Soon its students took it upon themselves to halt what they see as the un-Islamic practices of Rahman Baba’s admirers. When I last visited it in 2003, the shrine-keeper, Tila Mohammed, described how young students were coming regularly to complain that his shrine was a center of idolatry and immorality.

“My family have been singing here for generations,” he told me. “But now these madrasa students come and tell us that what we do is wrong. They tell women to stay at home. This used to be a place where people came to get peace of mind. Now when they come here they just encounter more problems.”

Then, one morning in early March 2009, a group of Pakistani Taliban arrived at the shrine before dawn and placed dynamite packages around the squinches supporting the shrine’s dome. In the ensuing explosion, the mausoleum was destroyed, but at least nobody was killed. The Pakistani Taliban quickly took credit, blaming the shrine’s administrators for allowing women to pray and seek healing there.

The good news is that Sufis, though mild, are also resilient. While the Wahhabis have become dominant in northern Pakistan ever since we chose to finance their fight against the Soviets in Afghanistan, things are different in Sindh Province in southern Pakistan. Sufis are putting up a strong resistance on behalf of the pluralist, composite culture that emerged in the course of a thousand years of cohabitation between Hinduism and Islam.

Last year, when I visited a shrine of the saint Lal Shahbaz Qalandar in the town of Sehwan, I was astonished by the strength and the openness of the feelings against those puritan mullahs who criticize as heresy all homage to Sufi saints.

“I feel that it is my duty to protect both the Sufi saints, just as they have protected me,” one woman told me. “Today in our Pakistan there are so many of these mullahs and Wahhabis who say that to pay respect to the saints in their shrines is heresy. Those hypocrites! They sit there reading their law books and arguing about how long their beards should be, and fail to listen to the true message of the prophet.”

There are many like her; indeed, until recently Sufism was the dominant form of Islam in South Asia. And her point of view shows why the West would do well to view Sufis as natural allies against the extremists. A 2007 study by the RAND Corporation found that Sufis’ open, intellectual interpretation of Islam makes them ideal “partners in the effort to combat Islamist extremism.”

Sufism is an entirely indigenous, deeply rooted resistance movement against violent Islamic radicalism. Whether it can be harnessed to a political end is not clear. But the least we can do is to encourage the Sufis in our own societies. Men like Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf should be embraced as vital allies, and we should have only contempt for those who, through ignorance or political calculation, attempt to conflate them with the extremists.


William Dalrymple is the author, most recently, of “Nine Lives: In Search of the Sacred in Modern India.”
 
oh gimme a break. william dalrymple has his bearings wrong. sharia peddlers like rauf aren't in the same league as new age personal spiritualists. there is no spirituality only islam anywhere.
 
oh gimme a break. william dalrymple has his bearings wrong. sharia peddlers like rauf aren't in the same league as new age personal spiritualists. there is no spirituality only islam anywhere.

Nonsense - there is no 'hard and fast rule' for spirituality.

Just because you might wish to see 'new age spirituality' defined solely within the confines of 'yogis and Joshis' does not mean they somehow have a monopoly on spiritualism.

Shariah and Islam are not the issue - some interpretations of Shariah and Islam are the issue, and I see nothing (AFAIK) in Rauf's teachings that is of major concern.
 
Repost from previous thread.


A very important point showing the hypocrisy of the Americans.
At least those who oppose the building of this mosque/community center.

Some 70% Americans oppose the building of this mosque/community center.

The reason why it's wrong to build the mosque? The sensibilities, the sentiments, the feelings and the emotions of Americans - particularly those who had loved ones killed in 9/11 - would be hurt.

Here's the important part.

A similar reason was given by muslims to Americans (and to westerners in general) for why prophet Mohammad caricatures should not be published and painted. That the sensibilities, the sentiments, the feelings and emotions of Muslims would be hurt.

However, Americans and westerners laughed Muslims off for that and kept talking about their freedom of expression. They said that being hurt, hurting sensibilities is not a good enough reason for why the caricatures should be not be published.

Don't try to give me the simplistic argument of "it's just a cartoon vs 3,000 people being killed". That argument is utterly simplistic.


I am not sure someone else noticed this here -- I am sure someone must have. But the hypocrisy is as clear as day light.

Granted for those who oppose the mosque and support drawing hate filled caricatures on draw muhammad day, but cant this hypocrisy also be seen on the side of Muslims who cast aside American sentiments and argue the legal words of the law while doing just the exact opposite with regards to caricatures of Muhammad?

It should be noted that the site was eventually banned or taken down in a striking blow to freedom of speech and expression (granted by a private company).

Will we see the equivalent outcome here by a weak government with elections right around the corner? I hope not, it would be another blow against our freedoms, doubly so coming from the body whose duty it is to follow them.
 
Nonsense - there is no 'hard and fast rule' for spirituality.

Just because you might wish to see 'new age spirituality' defined solely within the confines of 'yogis and Joshis' does not mean they somehow have a monopoly on spiritualism.

Shariah and Islam are not the issue - some interpretations of Shariah and Islam are the issue, and I see nothing (AFAIK) in Rauf's teachings that is of major concern.

all classical schools of sharia are incompatible with modern polity, plain and simple. a very watered down school of sharia would really be heterodox and not islam in any real sense.
 
all classical schools of sharia are incompatible with modern polity, plain and simple. a very watered down school of sharia would really be heterodox and not islam in any real sense.

There is nothing 'watered down' about Shariah that might not conform to the more conservative interpretations, its merely a new interpretation. I don't see anything within it that does not conform with egalitarianism.

And in any case, that is an issue for Muslims to deal with. You don't like it, don't become a Muslim.
 
There is nothing 'watered down' about Shariah that might not conform to the more conservative interpretations, its merely a new interpretation. I don't see anything within it that does not conform with egalitarianism.

And in any case, that is an issue for Muslims to deal with. You don't like it, don't become a Muslim.

i am not talking from a personal perspective. its no longer an internal muslim matter when there is a push to introduce these ideas into external political systems.

the biggest problem is that islam has no central authority(s), so no one can be sure whats going to be preached in a particular mosque or what particular politico-legal views are going to be held by muslims.

these are important things to know for outsiders.

also, orthodox islam of all stripes is completely incompatible with modern polity, in a way roman catholicism isn't. this isn't a good sign.
 
To repeat what I stated earlier.

The whole argument against the construction of this project is built around the point that the sensibilities, the sentiments, the feelings and the emotions of Americans - particularly those who had loved ones killed in 9/11 - would be hurt.

Muslims used the same argument to ask Americans and westerners to not make caricatures of Prophet Muhammad when his caricatures were being drawn and published.
Not the same. Unlike Muslims outraged by mere cartoons, those who had loved ones killed on 9/11 experience grief and loss. So calling out "hypocrisy" merely highlights the lack of empathy by Muslims like yourself and thus strengthens the determination of Cordoba House opponents.
 
Is America ever going to realise that they're not the only ones in this world? So what if someone wants to build a mosque on their land, they (not all Americans) need to get into their thick skulls that the majority of people that are Muslims, Islamic etc etc etc are not some kind of f*cking terrorists! They need to realise that before they open their mouths, especially when they used to fund the likes of the IRA to fight against MY country, Great Britian. Hypocrites!

And that Obama is as much use as a bucket of sh*te on a hot day. C'mon, saying that the BP oil spill was as bad as 9/11 & blaming the British...Little did he realise that it was actually the Americans that approved the safety measures and what not on the wells, he soon shut up when he found out. Pathetic!
 
There is nothing to discuss here. Its been drummed up by the right wing talk radio into an issue.

Its been dubbed ground zero Mosque by the folks who makes a living playing divisive politics. Its actually a Cultural Center about a quarter mile away. But a connection needed to be made by the haters between the Center and the twin towers. Hence the name ground zero Mosque. Because only then public would pay attention to the drum beat and war cries.

There are more strip bars and gambling joints nearer to ground zero than the Cultural Center
 
Last edited:

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom