The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[Gin ka Pakistan]

This Ground-zero mosque has harm US Musliums more then helping them , its should be closed.

 

[faithfulguy]

No victory mosque. Mosque is a place of worship, not a place of celebrating victory

 

[Old School]

Except the great three mosques in Mecca , Medina and Jerusalem , there is no significance of any other mosque in Islam . It is advised to pray at the nearest mosques in Islamic guidelines. Wasting of resources is also forbidden in Islam . Our Prophet (pbuh) spent a very simple life and never built any extravagant palace or mosque in his life time. What is the logic behind this 100m dollar project in a controversial place which will imbalance the harmony?

 

[Coltsfan]

Except the great three mosques in Mecca , Medina and Jerusalem , there is no significance of any other mosque in Islam . It is advised to pray at the nearest mosques in Islamic guidelines. Wasting of resources is also forbidden in Islam . Our Prophet (pbuh) spent a very simple life and never built any extravagant palace or mosque in his life time. What is the logic behind this 100m dollar project in a controversial place which will imbalance the harmony?

I am not a muslim and still I am supporting creation of this mosque

1) Its not just a mosque in a typical sense, it is an Islamic community center that has a place for praying, so it is intended to improve the quality of Muslims who would use this facility.

2) Scrapping this project is not going to help create harmony, people who oppose the mosque would celebrate their victory and then pick another mosque to continue their fight.

3) If you give up an inch, religious bigots here in US would take a mile. Already protests against mosques in TN, MN and CA popping up, so it is much more than just another mosque.

4) This is an issue between moderate/tolerant america and extremists /intolerant america.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

And really, I personally think the builders of the mosque("Community Center") at this point would probably gain more by voluntarily backing down....But it should be a non-issue.

I disagree because I think backing down in such a high profile issue would lay the groundwork for future protests and limitations along the same lines. We already have the construction of several other mosques being protested against, and I can see the anti-mosque crowd, fresh from making 'Mooslums' back down re-directing energies and resources into those campaigns. Already right-wing talk radio is essentially bashing all US mosques as 'centers of terrorism and terrorist training'.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just cannot resist a jab at someone's ethnic origin, could you? Sooner or later I know this would come out.

No jab at your origin - but since the KKK was primarily a racist White Christian group, I had to deny you a snide rebuttal with you pointing out that you were Vietnamese.

My point is that your arguments, and those of many others on the American Right, fit into the 'KKK category'.

 

[Tang0]

4) This is an issue between moderate/tolerant america and extremists /intolerant america.

Polls would disagree with this statement, unless you are going to state that 60% of US citizens are "Religious Extremists". Also, European democracies famous for their liberal social policies (France, Switzerland, Denmark...) are much harder on Islam than US society as a whole is.

It is an issue of sentimentality Vs. logic, and individuality Vs. majority. Both of these issues push and pull on democracies from time to time. Rule by Mob Vs. Publicly Chosen Elite..... Not an issue that is going to fade with time. This is unlike racism, which will slowly fade after intermarriage rates increase and everyone starts to turn some shade of light brown. The KKK is dead and unlikely to make a resurgence, this is not the same type of issue...

 

[Multani]

In response to the debate the OP mentions, sharif algamal owns a number of other buildings in lower manhattan not too far away from the site. Why not turn one of those into a cultural islamic centre. As far as the situation on the ground goes, there are more Muslim living northwards than near the twin towers.

As such, the gellars and spencers of america would have never had the chance.

 

[gambit]

No jab at your origin - but since the KKK was primarily a racist White Christian group, I had to deny you a snide rebuttal with you pointing out that you were Vietnamese.

My point is that your arguments, and those of many others on the American Right, fit into the 'KKK category'.

I speak on this issue as an American citizen. My ethnic origin has nothing to do with this and least of all be associated with the KKK, whose beliefs diverges from mine. It was a convenient cheap shot from you. However, given my experience at muslim dominated forums, whenever out of subject necessity that I reveal my ethnic background, it would not be long before a muslim use it to some degrees of insult. You guys cannot help it, really.

 

[NWO]

However, given my experience at muslim dominated forums, whenever out of subject necessity that I reveal my ethnic background, it would not be long before a muslim use it to some degrees of insult. You guys cannot help it, really.

What other forums are you talking about?

But is that not the role of a leadership? Or at least part of being a member of that clique is to take the blame for what goes wrong with the organization? You set the rules, you reap the respect of the masses, you live with privileges endowed, official or not, by those same people. But you do not want to take responsibility for what goes wrong?

In a sense, we do have a leadership: the Quran. Problem is, so many sects interpret it differently. Christianity doesn't even have that. There are many versions of the bible, and not all Christians follow the Pope. Its a unreasonable demand that Islam must have a central authority when no other religion has one.

 

[gambit]

What other forums are you talking about?

ummah.com , bishmika-whatever , irandefence and others. It seems as if to a muslim, it is unthinkable that an Asian could be a loyal US citizen. That is a racist belief in itself.

In a sense, we do have a leadership: the Quran. Problem is, so many sects interpret it differently. Christianity doesn't even have that. There are many versions of the bible, and not all Christians follow the Pope. Its a unreasonable demand that Islam must have a central authority when no other religion has one.

Let us take the hijacking of a ship as analogy.

What is a ship? It is a vessel and a vessel contains 'stuff'. Generally, we do not mix 'stuff', like oil and water, into the same vessel. We strive to keep any vessel to be as pure as possible. A ship has a destination, a leadership that provide focus on a mission, and equally important, moral purity. By that, the captain's rule is: 'My way or the highway.' Therefore, in order to maintain a steady course towards a destination, there cannot be dissensions in the ranks. A 'hijacking' is a usurpation of the ship's leadership. To take the ship to a new destination and under a new set of moral codes. Since Islam refuses to acknowledge the need for a central moral/legal authority regarding doctrines and their applicability, in other words, refuse to take the appropriate stance of a ship's captain: 'My way or the highway.' There can be no such thing as the 'hijacking' of Islam by al-Qaeda or any sect.

 

[fallstuff]

ummah.com , bishmika-whatever , irandefence and others. It seems as if to a muslim, it is unthinkable that an Asian could be a loyal US citizen. That is a racist belief in itself.


Let us take the hijacking of a ship as analogy.

What is a ship? It is a vessel and a vessel contains 'stuff'. Generally, we do not mix 'stuff', like oil and water, into the same vessel. We strive to keep any vessel to be as pure as possible. A ship has a destination, a leadership that provide focus on a mission, and equally important, moral purity. By that, the captain's rule is: 'My way or the highway.' Therefore, in order to maintain a steady course towards a destination, there cannot be dissensions in the ranks. A 'hijacking' is a usurpation of the ship's leadership. To take the ship to a new destination and under a new set of moral codes. Since Islam refuses to acknowledge the need for a central moral/legal authority regarding doctrines and their applicability, in other words, refuse to take the appropriate stance of a ship's captain: 'My way or the highway.' There can be no such thing as the 'hijacking' of Islam by al-Qaeda or any sect.

Hugely wrong analogy.

In Islamic faith each induvudual is resposible for his or her action. On the day of the judgement each indivudual will be judged based on their actions and not based on what other people of Islamic faith did.

The hijacking of the religion is a term used in the US msm. This is how they explain to the viewres this is not the real Islam. I don't know anybody of Islamic faith who ever used that as an excuse.


An individuals faith is not subject to what some body else or a group of people supposedly belonging to Islamic faith does.

Basically what you are arguing is symbolism, it has no value in Islam.

For Gods sake , even George W Bush gets it, whats wrong with you ?

 

[Icarus]

I speak on this issue as an American citizen. My ethnic origin has nothing to do with this and least of all be associated with the KKK, whose beliefs diverges from mine. It was a convenient cheap shot from you. However, given my experience at muslim dominated forums, whenever out of subject necessity that I reveal my ethnic background, it would not be long before a muslim use it to some degrees of insult. You guys cannot help it, really.

Never, your ethnicity will never be used against you by muslims, particularly by Pakistanis since we live in a very multi-cultural society. We have black people, white(Aryan) people and everything in between !
So don't worry about ethnicity bashing ! Not on a Pakistani forum......

 

[NWO]

There can be no such thing as the 'hijacking' of Islam by al-Qaeda or any sect.

So, you admit that the Islam that Al-Qaeda or anyone else follows is not as the same as the Islam other Muslims follow?

 

[Xeric]

Why the 'Ground Zero Mosque' Will Enrich New York - Newsweek

Why the 'Ground Zero Mosque' Will Enrich New York

How Religious Diversity Enriches Our Lives

The debate over the ‘Ground Zero mosque’ misses an important potential virtue of the project: what non-Muslim New Yorkers and visitors will gain from its presence.



The atheist son of nonpracticing Jews, I’m about as far from a Christian as you can get this side of paganism. And yet I love churches.

When I was a child, it was a Roman Catholic church—St. Augustine’s, the massive jumble of stone and wrought iron that takes up half the city block adjacent to that of my parents’ house in Brooklyn—that anchored my sense of place. On the return leg of car trips, St. Augustine’s spire appearing on the horizon told me we were almost home. The fence provided an outfield wall for Wiffle-ball games, and the bells chiming on the hour reminded me to get out of bed (not that it did much good).

The summer after my freshman year of college, I was showing off my neighborhood to a friend from out of town when she asked whether I had ever been inside the church. I was ashamed to admit that I had not. “Ben!” she exclaimed, with genuine horror at my lack of curiosity toward such a beautiful building that I passed every day. Ever since then I have made a point of ducking in every few years. I have stumbled upon masses in Creole for Haitian-American parishioners, and services in Spanish. I have yet to actually witness one in English, although they do occur.

I revel in my native Brooklyn’s identity as “the borough of churches,” from the imposing Gothic Episcopal and Catholic edifices to plain little Baptist storefronts and modest Pentecostal signs in Spanish.
Related: The Other Religion at Ground Zero »

One summer night many years ago, while walking home from work, I heard the most joyous music emanating, like an aural glow, from the basement of a church a few blocks from the house where I grew up. I wandered down in time to catch the very end of the African-American gospel choir filling the basement with their uplifting song. The moment they finished, I planned to leave, but the pastor was such a pleasure to watch—with his passionate and playful delivery a decided counterpoint to my previous experiences with clergy of all faiths—that I stayed.

Perhaps my favorite is Plymouth Church in Brooklyn Heights, its unadorned, modest New England Congregationalist architecture a striking, peaceful counterpoint to the Victorian grandeur of its surrounding neighborhood. Plymouth was the home of the great abolitionist preacher Henry Ward Beecher and a stop on the Underground Railroad.

And then there is St. Ann’s, the Episcopal congregation that incubated my progressive high school, and still lends its large and riveting, if somewhat worn-out, space to the school for major events. There, in the pews, under the stained-glass windows, were the sources of some of my fondest and most poignant memories of high school: a teacher leading us all in an acoustic rendition of The Wall by Pink Floyd at the annual Christmas assembly, a recent memorial service for a social-studies teacher who mentored me.
Video muted: click volume for sound Greeting Card Emergency: Help! My Muslim Friend Is Being Demonized As emotions flare over the proposed Islamic community center to be built near Ground Zero, David Ellis Dickerson creates two greeting cards to help ease the tension.

As I wander around my new neighborhood, just a mile from my parents’ house but a world apart in a New Yorker’s psychology, I’m excited to discover a Muslim area along Fulton Street that I never knew existed. The muezzin blasts out of a tiny mosque across the street from my subway exit as I head home from work. On weekends I stroll down to the hub of halal restaurants, past the men congregating in skullcaps, and puzzle over the exotica in store windows. Recently I stumbled across a little old Orthodox synagogue in the Crown Heights neighborhood of Brooklyn, no wider than the brownstone I grew up in. Sitting next to an exposed subway track, with its sandstone façade and Moorish arches, it looked random in its surroundings and yet utterly appropriate.

I'm also fond of Trinity Church, which houses the Episcopal chapel where George Washington worshiped as president. New Yorkers just say it's downtown, but to Newt Gingrich it would be "at Ground Zero." I am reminded of all these religious institutions by the debate now raging over the proposal to build an Islamic Community Center at the site of the former Burlington Coat Factory, half a mile from Trinity. The outrage triggered by the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque," is echoed in local fury at mosque construction from just across the harbor in Staten Island to Murfreesboro, Tenn.

Arguments in defense of the Park51 project in New York tend to fall into two categories. Some people assert, correctly, that to limit First Amendment protections to those activities we like is to eviscerate the Constitution. Others maintain that tolerating the project is smart geopolitics, that we must reach out to Muslim moderates at home and abroad. But what about the case for the Islamic center as an actual cultural benefit to the rest of us because of what it offers, not just what its presence says? One thing that has seemingly been lost in the debate is the beauty and cultural wealth that religious and ethnic pluralism brings to America as a whole and New York in particular.
‘A Little Intolerant, But Good Reason To Be’ Protesters for and against the building of a Muslim community center near Ground Zero talk about their reasons for supporting or opposing the project.

Debates about the precise brand of Islam to be practiced at Park51 seem to miss a more essential truth: you do not need to agree with the views of a clergyman, much less those of all his coreligionists the world over, to appreciate what his house of worship brings to your community. I have strong objections to the teachings of the Vatican on reproductive freedom, contraception, and equality for gays. Still, I drive my traveling companions crazy by insisting on ducking into every church that I pass in Europe. And the same goes for every Buddhist temple I could find in Thailand.

My experience may be more fortunate than some people’s. I don’t know how I would have been received at some of these places had I worn a yarmulke or walked in holding hands with another man. Certainly New York’s religious sects can irritate each other—just ask the ultra-Orthodox Hasidic Jews in Williamsburg how they feel about the immodestly clad bicyclists who have appeared on their streets. But it is precisely our proximity to people of other cultures and religions that makes New York City the great pastiche that it is. Perhaps that’s why New Yorkers are more likely to support the Park51 project than people from less diverse, less integrated areas. Where I’m from, Gentiles have been to Passover seders, and I’ve been to Catholic confirmations. From the charmingly garish Christmas decorations of Dyker Heights to the Ramadan breakfast I shared with a shop owner on Atlantic Avenue, it is precisely the assertive presence of religious and cultural practices I do not adhere to that makes my home where it is, right by St. Augustine’s.