The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[NWO]

What senor Dien either deliberately omitted or neglected is the question: Is it possible for one to wonder if, since there is a historical precedent for such a central moral-legal authority in Islam, why are there none today? Or more importantly, why are there no serious efforts by those who controls access to Islam's holiest icons, Mecca and Medina, to create such a centralized moral-legal authority for Islam? The cynical would move, or jump, to the conclusion that for now, when the world is religiously divided, it serves Islam's interests to have no such centralized moral-legal authority. Let the individual mosques do as they see fit wherever they are in the lands of the infidels.

People disagree. Its really that simple. You say Islam, but forget that is has many different sects and sub-sects. All Muslims follow the Quran, but their interpretation of it varies. Its kind of like, why don't all Christians follow the Pope? As well, define 'land of the infidels'. You seem to imply that all Muslims consider the West as infidels, or something?

The MEastern muslims' apathy to this proposed mosque seems to be an apt expression of that 'praxic understanding' and seemingly begs the question to American muslims: 'Why are you doing this to Islam's image when our faith is under such intense and negative scrutiny?' And Americans' objections are called 'irrational'?

Why are you viewing Islam is such a negative light? And the objections aren't irrational, just idiotic.

Also, you used the words 'Animal Kingdom'. That is a insult to Saudi Arabia, just to let you know.

 

[Ras]

What if the muslims believe that we should be equally intolerant, should we? Be careful before you answer.

The mosque is never going to be built...first no union crew in New York will work on it. The organizers also do not have the money to start the project (they have not even bought all the land they need forget about construction costs)..they will never be able to raise the money in the US. The backlash will be tremendous so people will stay far away(even muslims). The money will have to come from abroad...and that will cause a whole lot of other issues. The organizers are already on the scanner for tax issues.

 

[GentlemanObserver]

The mosque is never going to be built...first no union crew in New York will work on it. The organizers also do not have the money to start the project (they have not even bought all the land they need forget about construction costs)..they will never be able to raise the money in the US. The backlash will be tremendous so people will stay far away(even muslims). The money will have to come from abroad...and that will cause a whole lot of other issues. The organizers are already on the scanner for tax issues.

 

[EjazR]

Sure...And together we have a triumphalist structure.

Repeating a myth and using Goebbellian tactics does not mean its the truth. But I can see how power they can be since some people have fallen to it

That was a silent question from muslims to American muslims.

The Islamic cultural centre is only about AMERICAN muslims period. ME muslims, Indian muslims, Indonesian muslims have no role in that and were not asked for any input.

For the record, I had said about a month back that the it should be relocated, notbecause anything that was being said is right but to cutdown the frenzy of hate being fanned by extremists.

That is where you are wrong. The Catholic Church has been vilified in the press, local and national. At the very least, the people, Catholics and non, have a leadership figure that they can focus their moral outrage. We do not see Catholics claiming to be victims of bigotry, do we?

And blaming the entire clergy WAS wrong. I completely condemn the way the Vatican and the clergy keep getting treated in the media.

And there is a leadership figure to focus anger on for the 9/11 attacks, it is the deviant criminal leadership of OBL and Zawahiri.
The traditional mainstream leadership is the ally against this outrage. Let me keep reminding you again and again that this some "leadership" that was resposible for 9/11 attacks is also responsible for have a 90% ratio of muslims in the number of people they have killed.

So if ANYONE has the right to be outraged at the "leadership" behind the 9/11 attacks its the muslims themselves.

 

[gambit]

Repeating a myth and using Goebbellian tactics does not mean its the truth. But I can see how power they can be since some people have fallen to it

Am an amateur when it comes to such tactics, ie: Zionists, the CIA, AIPAC, and assorted.

The Islamic cultural centre is only about AMERICAN muslims period. ME muslims, Indian muslims, Indonesian muslims have no role in that and were not asked for any input.

Good...Then may be you should leave this issue alone as an American issue. You cannot have it both ways. On the one hand, you claim that this American issue affect muslims worldwide, vis-a-vis Islam. But then when the opinions of other muslims are brought in, as I showed the AP news report, you want to isolate it to America...

For the record, I had said about a month back that the it should be relocated, notbecause anything that was being said is right but to cutdown the frenzy of hate being fanned by extremists.

And that is what those who opposed asked.

And blaming the entire clergy WAS wrong. I completely condemn the way the Vatican and the clergy keep getting treated in the media.

I disagree. FYI, am a lapsed Catholic. Anyway...The Catholic clergy is not as autonomous as the Islamic clergy class, precisely because of the lack of a central moral-legal authority in Islam. Focusing the laity's wrath upon that class is appropriate.

And there is a leadership figure to focus anger on for the 9/11 attacks, it is the deviant criminal leadership of OBL and Zawahiri.
The traditional mainstream leadership is the ally against this outrage. Let me keep reminding you again and again that this some "leadership" that was resposible for 9/11 attacks is also responsible for have a 90% ratio of muslims in the number of people they have killed.

So if ANYONE has the right to be outraged at the "leadership" behind the 9/11 attacks its the muslims themselves.

Yeah......We infidels are not going to hold our breaths. Let me remind you again to look at Europe's response to Islam. Americans will assess and formulate our own.

 

[fallstuff]

Let me remind you again to look at Europe's response to Islam. Americans will assess and formulate our own.

Keep on dreaming bud !!

It will be a cold day in hell before that happens !

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Let me remind you again to look at Europe's response to Islam. Americans will assess and formulate our own.

You mean America and Americans will shift from individual protests an prejudice to State Sponsored prejudice and oppression of a particular community?

It really illustrates the depths to which the arguments of some of those opposing the cultural center have sunk to, when threats of State oppression, in the event of non-conformity with a particular viewpoint based on prejudice, are being bandied about.

 

[gambit]

You mean America and Americans will shift from individual protests an prejudice to State Sponsored prejudice and oppression of a particular community?

It really illustrates the depths to which the arguments of some of those opposing the cultural center have sunk to, when threats of State oppression, in the event of non-conformity with a particular viewpoint based on prejudice, are being bandied about.

The Euros are just following someone else's lead. Am sure you understand.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The Euros are just following someone else's lead. Am sure you understand.

Technically they would be following their own lead (as would the Americans) given their history of genocides, colonization and persecution of non-white, non-xyz Christian sect communities throughout history.

But again, as I said, your arguments pretty much expose you for what you are and what you see Europe as being and America as becoming. But when it comes to 'following leads', one community whose lead you certainly will not be following in pursuing this degenerate vision of yours will be the American Muslim community.

On that count we certainly are not giving you any excuse - you wish to enact State-Sponsored oppression and prejudice, then it will be of your own volition and with no example set by American Muslims.

Again, thank you for making it clear that the ideology of the KKK continues, and can even be reincarnated in a man of Vietnamese origin.

 

[gambit]

Again, thank you for making it clear that the ideology of the KKK continues, and can even be reincarnated in a man of Vietnamese origin.

Just cannot resist a jab at someone's ethnic origin, could you? Sooner or later I know this would come out.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Just cannot resist a jab at someone's ethnic origin, could you? Sooner or later I know this would come out.

You bring out the worst in people, Gambit... with your stereotyping and your racist attitude. For example:

May be this penchant for dictatorship is deeply ingrained in Chinese sheeple but not in the US.

Apparently Chinese "sheeple" have a "penchant for dictatorship"... even though Hong Kong, Taiwan and Singapore are not autocracies.

And I see you have still not given out a single "thanks" during your entire time posting here.

 

[NWO]

You know, Gambit, even if there was a central authority figure in Islam, you would probably just attack the leadership. Since there isn't one, you just attack the fact that Islam lacks a central authority figure. It seems you have made up your opinion on Islam, and will attack it no matter what.

 

[oceanx]

You bring out the worst in people, Gambit... with your stereotyping and your prejudiced attitude.

I see you have still not given out a single "thanks" during your entire time posting here.

Get a clue, little Dragon! Why should he thank anybody? There is better than even odds that he is commissioned here.

Now I for one don't mind the professionals ... but these days he clearly doesn't look like he is even enjoying the work!

That, my friend, is painful to watch.

If you are going to engage the occasional trolls on your own time, at least banter with someone who is a fellow volunteer ... like myself.

I am going on a "troll sabbatical" soon ... but will leave you with some "parting wisdom".

 

[gambit]

You know, Gambit, even if there was a central authority figure in Islam, you would probably just attack the leadership. Since there isn't one, you just attack the fact that Islam lacks a central authority figure. It seems you have made up your opinion on Islam, and will attack it no matter what.

But is that not the role of a leadership? Or at least part of being a member of that clique is to take the blame for what goes wrong with the organization? You set the rules, you reap the respect of the masses, you live with privileges endowed, official or not, by those same people. But you do not want to take responsibility for what goes wrong?

 

[Tang0]

This whole argument is beginning to remind me of another argument years back.
Ten years after school shooting, community remembers but sees few changes after 6-year-old Kayla Rolland's death | MLive.com

In Flint Michigan, a young boy brought a gun to school and killed two classmates. Two days later, the NRA(National Rifle Association) decided to hold a rally a couple of blocks away. (It had been scheduled before the shooting)

The Anti-Gun people were appalled. They said that it was a disgrace, and that regardless of what you believed about the subject, in incredibly poor taste.

The NRA said the opposite. If that child and his caretakers had NRA sponsored gun training, it would have never have happened. That these types of events are avoidable accidents, and the price the US pays for the second amendment. That it was actually important to keep and hold the rally on schedule, in order to make those points and keep more stringent laws from being put in place.

Really, both sides just spouted their line based on what they believed about the core subject: "gun control".

The rally was only offensive if you find the idea of firearms offensive. No more intrinsically offensive than a car show near someplace where somebody died in a car accident.
That does not change the fact that many found the rally offensive, and it might have been wise for the NRA to change the location.

When you asked people about it, they gave some logical sounding surface explanation, but the deeper you pressed, the more you found out about their personal opinion on the subject matter, and the less you found out about how they actually formed a logical argument.

So, everyone here admits that the terrorists on 9/11 had as much to do with mainstream Islam as say... David Koresh(David Koresh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) had to do with mainstream Christianity. And that the construction of the mosque does not violate the law.

So then, all we are hearing is people ingrained prejudices against Islam ("Islamic people are prejudiced and prone to violence against other religions...Never mind MY chosen religion's history of violence..."), and others ingrained defensiveness ("Screw you, I can practice my religion however I want...Sure, most Islamic countries restrict religious freedoms, but what about when I want to practice MY religion?")

So really, why are we still talking? The law says it is perfectly legal, the builders don't seem to have any evil plans lined up. If it offends you, boo-hoo, go off and cry somewhere in a corner.

And really, I personally think the builders of the mosque("Community Center") at this point would probably gain more by voluntarily backing down....But it should be a non-issue.