The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[Ras]

this is how the republican party has been screwing blue collar america......... by confounding their puny little brain with 2nd amendment, gay marriage, religion issues ......... while working for the corporate america....

sad indeed...

The unions typically vote Democratic not GOP...but they are extremely conservative on social issues.

 

[Coltsfan]

The unions typically vote Democratic not GOP...but they are extremely conservative on social issues.

Workers union has not taken a stand on this issue.......... YET


Also, quoting from article........

Popularity aside, there are some construction workers choosing not to set themselves against the project.

"Hundreds of guys here are wearing stickers as a sign of protest, but I'm on the fence about it," said Frank Langan, 50, a site superintendent from Queens working at Ground Zero.

"It's a tough debate," he said. "I sympathize with workers' position, but at the same time, you can't single out all Muslims because of a small number of terrorists."

So, there are construction workers who are rational and level headed about this debate.

Also in the article

L.V. Spina, a Manhattan construction worker who created anti-mosque stickers that some workers are slapping on their hardhats, said he would "rather pick cans and bottles out of trash cans" than build the Islamic center near Ground Zero.

"But if they moved it somewhere else, we would put up a prime building for these people," he said. "Hell, you could do it next to my house in Rockaway Beach, I would be fine with it. But I'm not fine with it where blood has been spilled."

Spina, who sells 9/11 apparel on his website, said he's printed thousands of stickers and plans to produce thousands more.

"They're going all over the country," he said. "They got pretty popular fast."

Obviously this guy doesn't wanna work on the construction site, since he is making good $ exploiting the sentiments against the building of mosque. He can afford on to pass on this job, wonder how many other workers can.

 

[gambit]

That would indeed indicate that you are generalizing, since your comment was directed towards a British Pakistani, and in my case your arguments have been with a Pakistani American, and in the case of the NYC Community Center (and the various other mosques now being physically and verbally attacked by the right wing US zealots), it is an argument primarily with American Muslims, not XYZ Muslim country residents.

In both cases you won't find support for many discriminatory laws in place in Pakistan, for example, so what else is your comment (not that it is a surprise given the bigotry and prejudice you have already displayed with your previous arguments), but derogatory stereotyping and broad inaccurate generalizations.

Admittedly, generalization can be a double edged sword, but the ability to 'generalize' is natural and like it or not -- inevitable. It comes from recognizing a pattern, a trend, or a tendency, especially when we are talking about group behavior, peer pressures, and the need for unit cohesion. Even if we grant Pakistan to be an exception, that still does not disprove the concept of 'generalization' and its usefulness in leading the observer, for good or bad, into being conscious of the dominant group behavior or characteristic. You guys have no problem 'generalizing' American conservatives as 'ignorant rednecks', right?

 

[gambit]

Workers union has not taken a stand on this issue.......... YET

Even if the union leaderships decide to take a side -- any side -- that does not mean they can legally compel union members to work on any jobs the members do not want.

Also, quoting from article........

So, there are construction workers who are rational and level headed about this debate.

That is fine. Unfortunately...You may find that...ahh...errr...'irrational' workers to outnumber those who are...errr...ahhh...'rational'. It may take much longer to finish the job, but at least there is job security.

 

[Vassnti]

Note: This list is as yet incomplete and unconfirmed. It has been compiled from the Islamic Circle of North America, the Newsday victims database, and reports from other major news organizations. The victims' ages, employers, or other personal information is included when available, along with links to further information or photos.

Samad Afridi
Ashraf Ahmad
Shabbir Ahmad (45 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and 3 children)
Umar Ahmad
Azam Ahsan
Ahmed Ali
Tariq Amanullah (40 years old; Fiduciary Trust Co.; ICNA website team member; leaves wife and 2 children)
Touri Bolourchi (69 years old; United Airlines #175; a retired nurse from Tehran)
Salauddin Ahmad Chaudhury
Abdul K. Chowdhury (30 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Mohammad S. Chowdhury (39 years old; Windows on the World; leaves wife and child born 2 days after the attack)
Jamal Legesse Desantis
Ramzi Attallah Douani (35 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
SaleemUllah Farooqi
Syed Fatha (54 years old; Pitney Bowes)
Osman Gani
Mohammad Hamdani (50 years old)
Salman Hamdani (NYPD Cadet)
Aisha Harris (21 years old; General Telecom)
Shakila Hoque (Marsh & McLennan)
Nabid Hossain
Shahzad Hussain
Talat Hussain
Mohammad Shah Jahan (Marsh & McLennan)
Yasmeen Jamal
Mohammed Jawarta (MAS security)
Arslan Khan Khakwani
Asim Khan
Ataullah Khan
Ayub Khan
Qasim Ali Khan
Sarah Khan (32 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Taimour Khan (29 years old; Karr Futures)
Yasmeen Khan
Zahida Khan
Badruddin Lakhani
Omar Malick
Nurul Hoque Miah (36 years old)
Mubarak Mohammad (23 years old)
Boyie Mohammed (Carr Futures)
Raza Mujtaba
Omar Namoos
Mujeb Qazi
Tarranum Rahim
Ehtesham U. Raja (28 years old)
Ameenia Rasool (33 years old)
Naveed Rehman
Yusuf Saad
Rahma Salie & unborn child (28 years old; American Airlines #11; wife of Michael Theodoridis; 7 months pregnant)
Shoman Samad
Asad Samir
Khalid Shahid (25 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald; engaged to be married in November)
Mohammed Shajahan (44 years old; Marsh & McLennan)
Naseema Simjee (Franklin Resources Inc.'s Fiduciary Trust)
Jamil Swaati
Sanober Syed
Robert Elias Talhami (40 years old; Cantor Fitzgerald)
Michael Theodoridis (32 years old; American Airlines #11; husband of Rahma Salie)
W. Wahid

Ground zero victims, ground zero Muslims, give their families a place to pray.

http://islam.about.com/blvictims.htm

 

[Coltsfan]

Even if the union leaderships decide to take a side -- any side -- that does not mean they can legally compel union members to work on any jobs the members do not want.

and ?

What makes you think I was making the point that union can force its member to work at the site if they do not want to?

See, this is what happens when you take sentences out of context.

I was replying to Ras (scroll above and read for yourself) when he said that Unions usually side with Dems and not GOP, and I was making the point that the Union is undecided on this issue.

That is fine. Unfortunately...You may find that...ahh...errr...'irrational' workers to outnumber those who are...errr...ahhh...'rational'. It may take much longer to finish the job, but at least there is job security.

That is fine by me......... what's the rush...... after elections this issue is gonna fizzle out anyways, at least till next Fall

 

[gambit]

What makes you think I was making the point that union can force its member to work at the site if they do not want to?

That was for the benefit of readers who may not understand how unions in America works.

See, this is what happens when you take sentences out of context.

That is fine by me......... what's the rush...... after elections this issue is gonna fizzle out anyways, at least till next Fall

The issue will die, but not American memory. Why do you think that muslims in the ME are silent about this issue?

Mideast passions quiet over NY mosque showdown - Yahoo! News

Mideast commentators argue that many in the region view the clash as a wholly American spectacle — about political posturing and the lingering wounds of 9/11 — that distracts from genuine troubles such as Iran's growing clout or Israel's pressure on Gaza.

"The mosque is not an issue for Muslims and they don't care about it being built," wrote Saudi columnist Abdel Rahman Rashed in the pan-Arab Asharq al-Awsat newspaper.

"Some Muslims would even consider building a mosque there would be a permanent reminder of the acts of terrorists, who carried out their crime in the name of Islam," he added.

Because they know that if something similar occur in any MEastern country, there would be riots, repleted with calls of 'Death to America', and new loony conspiracies involving Israel, Zionists, the CIA, and Fox News would develop.

 

[Coltsfan]

Because they know that if something similar occur in any MEastern country, there would be riots, repleted with calls of 'Death to America', and new loony conspiracies involving Israel, Zionists, the CIA, and Fox News would develop.

So US should mirror the religious intolerance of these ME countries?

 

[gambit]

So US should mirror the religious intolerance of these ME countries?

What if the muslims believe that we should be equally intolerant, should we? Be careful before you answer.

 

[fallstuff]

Even if the union leaderships decide to take a side -- any side -- that does not mean they can legally compel union members to work on any jobs the members do not want.


That is fine. Unfortunately...You may find that...ahh...errr...'irrational' workers to outnumber those who are...errr...ahhh...'rational'. It may take much longer to finish the job, but at least there is job security.

I would not hold my breath, some workers just may start to pray in the Islamic Center ! Once the work is finished I suggest you go visit the place too. The experience may just pull the sheep out of you !

 

[Coltsfan]

What if the muslims believe that we should be equally intolerant, should we? Be careful before you answer.

Honestly, I don't care what the terrorists or people in ME feel about this issue.

This issue should be judged on its own merits and demerits. I am surprised we are even having a discussion about building a mosque in US.

 

[gambit]

Honestly, I don't care what the terrorists or people in ME feel about this issue.

You should, especially when both groups shares the same religion.

This issue should be judged on its own merits and demerits. I am surprised we are even having a discussion about building a mosque in US.

You should not be surprised. A mosque is a generic 'house of worship' but in context it is not a church or a synagogue. The presence of a particular brand of 'house of worship', by its religious affiliation, is naturally exclusionary to every one else other than those who shares that religious affiliation.

Here is a very relevant passage from a book in my little library...

Amazon.com: Islamic Law: From Historical Foundations To Contemporary Practice (9780268031732): Mawil Izzi Dien: Books

Chapter 9

Legal authority and the diverse faces of Islamic law

The lack of central authority is probably one of the main reasons that has led to a weakness inherent in Sunni Islamic law, whereby many contrasting fatawa are made by scholars who are said to be learned, alim. While diversity is important and represents a basic element of the spirit of Islamic law, this diversity seems to have backfired. There has been an emergence of many and often-conflicting views made by so-called Mufti and scholars, who pass easy judgement without careful consideration of the meaning of the text and, most importantly, the individual circumstances of cases. One often wonders, if there had been a central legal authority, would extremist ideas such as those that led to the events of 11 September 2001 exist? Perhaps the answer is in the affirmative, since the nature of any religious law expects the individual to partake in the decision-making of the law and the logistics of its application. However, a legal authority would reduce the incidence of chaotic legal decisions, which prevails in a Muslim society once there is a clear-cut division between the area of individual authority and what people can authorize for themselves. The principle of a central legal authority was practised and well documented in history during the time of 'Umar b. Abd al-Aziz, when there were ten well-known scholars who represented the advisory fatawa authority in Medina. Those scholars were consulted on the major issues confronted by society.

The above is the next-to-final paragraph in chapter 9.

Absent a centralized moral authority in Islam, which naturally would be the same legal authority, as far as 'Islamic laws' goes, any bin Laden wannabe in any mosque can customize his own fatwa to fit his needs, whatever they might be. That was how Osama bin Laden did it. That was how Theo van Gogh's murderer did it. And that was how Iran's clergy elite justified whatever they deemed to be 'un-Islamic' or 'Islamic', inside and outside, of Iran.

What senor Dien either deliberately omitted or neglected is the question: Is it possible for one to wonder if, since there is a historical precedent for such a central moral-legal authority in Islam, why are there none today? Or more importantly, why are there no serious efforts by those who controls access to Islam's holiest icons, Mecca and Medina, to create such a centralized moral-legal authority for Islam? The cynical would move, or jump, to the conclusion that for now, when the world is religiously divided, it serves Islam's interests to have no such centralized moral-legal authority. Let the individual mosques do as they see fit wherever they are in the lands of the infidels.

There is an interesting sentence in Chapter 10, The future of Islamic law, that goes...'The organic law is the mass law, which operates in a non-institutionalised form.'

This 'mass law' is group think, or herd behavior, if you will. It can exist with or without religion, but it cannot exist in a moral/intellectual vacuum. In the animal kingdom, it is 'instinct' and behaviors are effectively hardwired. We are not that unfortunate to many degrees removed. We can look at the ME's apathy to this American issue as an extension of that 'mass law', or more accurately, a 'praxic understanding'...

Chapter 10

The future of Islamic law

The nature of Islamic law is such that it can operate as an organic law, even when the big tree of the organisation collapses and fails to function. History relates that this is what happened when the Mongols ravaged Baghdad and the Turkish defenders of the empire were not able to continue their role as the guardians and custodians of Islam. This is due to the nature of Islamic law, which is not a law in the Western sense of the word. Fiqh, as in Laleh Bakhtiar maintains, is a 'praxic understanding', that provides an inside vision into how one is to act and live as a Muslim.

The MEastern muslims' apathy to this proposed mosque seems to be an apt expression of that 'praxic understanding' and seemingly begs the question to American muslims: 'Why are you doing this to Islam's image when our faith is under such intense and negative scrutiny?' And Americans' objections are called 'irrational'?

 

[Coltsfan]

The MEastern muslims' apathy to this proposed mosque seems to be an apt expression of that 'praxic understanding' and seemingly begs the question to American muslims: 'Why are you doing this to Islam's image when our faith is under such intense and negative scrutiny?' And Americans' objections are called 'irrational'?

First of all it is an Islamic Community Center and not just a "mosque".

Second, You can ask these questions to the Muslim community by having a dialog, not by arm twisting a minority that is already under attack. And certainly not by jingoistic rhetoric that one saw in the rally last weekend.

Why should Muslim community as a whole be held responsible and answerable for the actions of a few?

Would you hold all Catholics responsible for the sexual abuse of young boys by the Catholic priests? I would certainly hope not.

 

[gambit]

First of all it is an Islamic Community Center and not just a "mosque".

Sure...And together we have a triumphalist structure.

Second, You can ask these questions to the Muslim community by having a dialog, not by arm twisting a minority that is already under attack. And certainly not by jingoistic rhetoric that one saw in the rally last weekend.

That was a silent question from muslims to American muslims.

Why should Muslim community as a whole be held responsible and answerable for the actions of a few?

Would you hold all Catholics responsible for the sexual abuse of young boys by the Catholic priests? I would certainly hope not.

That is where you are wrong. The Catholic Church has been vilified in the press, local and national. At the very least, the people, Catholics and non, have a leadership figure that they can focus their moral outrage. We do not see Catholics claiming to be victims of bigotry, do we?

 

[Coltsfan]

That is where you are wrong. The Catholic Church has been vilified in the press, local and national. At the very least, the people, Catholics and non, have a leadership figure that they can focus their moral outrage. We do not see Catholics claiming to be victims of bigotry, do we?

So this proposed mosque has become a symbol of outrage against Islamic fundamentalism?

and we do not see Catholics claiming to be victims because Catholic Church hasn't really suffered as a consequence of the sexual abuse scandals. They were able to pay their way out of it, settling the law suits for multi million $ sums.

Too bad muslims cant take that road....... so they have to suffer through this.