The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[gambit]

Battle victory to who?

To al-Qaeda. In the name of Islam and for muslims worldwide.

To the 100 muslims who died in the WTC attacks? To the thousands of muslims who continue to die in attacksby Al Qaeda and consist of 90% of its victims?

ObL cannot be faulted for not knowing how many muslims works there. Keep in mind that as far as al-Qaeda goes, every US taxpayer, by being a taxpayer, qualify him/her as a combatant in this war. So if there are any muslims working in those symbols of infidel decadence, the muslims are guilty by association.

And have you heard about the thousands of muslims that were saddned by the attacks? Did you hear about the candle light vigils for the victims of the attacks in places like Palestine and Iran ??!! You didn;t, you want see that on Faux news my friend.

Good...Then all the supporters of this triumphalist structure...oopss...I mean 'mosque'...should take the silence from the same as cue to move it elsewhere, which is what Americans ask.

To the thousands of muslims who continue to die in attacksby Al Qaeda and consist of 90% of its victims?And what do you have to say about the Torture memos and Abu Gharaib controversy in Iraq? Should we now blame all Americans and tarnish them all with the same brush as psychos who enjoy torturing people?

As if I need to dredge up the posts in this forum about that...

I am surprised that being from a military background as you claim to be. You don't know therole played by muslim countries in making US the sole superpower.

Mutual interests.

Was it not the Saudi Money that bank rolled the US as well as its war against Communism.

Spare me your exaggerations. We finance our own means.

Did not Reagan the most famous Republican presidents dedicate space shuttle launches to the mujahideen.

The mujahideen back then has nothing to do with al-Qaeda today.

For decades muslims have been supporting the US in its fight against Communism! Hell the German NATO command sent a piece of the Berlin War after it fel to ex-ISI chief Hamid Gul saying that they were the ones who put the first chink in the wall.

As if mutual interests and self preservation has nothing to do with this?

Americans should be atleast listen to what their own leaders Clinton and Gates say.

We have. That does not mean they are correct. But if celebrity name drop matter, then may be the supporters of this mosque take Miss USA's advice. She claims to be a muslim, right?

And btw, you will never hear a muslim saying Christians or Jews are the devil religion or disrespect the Bible or Torah as we believe they are holy books as well.

Do not care.

Is it also not true that hundreds of American muslims have been helping the US fight its wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and serving to defend their country under theAmerican flag? What about their loyalty?

This is not about their loyalty.

I know that you make some intelligent posts in the air force forums so Im still trying to understand if you just have misunderstandings or have just become part of the Sarah Palin crowd (no offence intended).

For the record I did say that there should be a freeze on the construction, but the reasons that you have given for the cultural centre to not be built strikes me full of "Palinism".

And I have stated several times that I support its construction.

P.S.: You still haven't answered on wether you believe muslims worship a monkey God?

I do not care if the Islamic Allah exists or not. I care only about political Islam.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

Yup...That mean Bush should have butt out since he was out of New York state when the towers collapsed. Twenty seven hundred US citizens murdered in one day in spectacular fashion that drew dances and rejoice in other parts of the world and it is cheap nationalism to grieve and feels anger with the victims.

I didn't get that butt out part..please explain.
they enjoyed..many had enjoyed from all parts of the world for different reasons.
attackers were religious terrorists..to be clear muslims.
are most of the religious motivated terrorists are muslims -yes.
is all muslims or islam terrorists - NO.
goverments,indivuals all look at muslims with suspicious eyes.. specially if they weare traditional beard and dress..but..once if you know that he is just a commen man that should be end of it. You and me may have hundred things against islam or muslim infact i do have..but that should not influence you and me when it comes to matters like this.

 

[gambit]

Again you're talking about something that's national to India and not religious. If someone made a museum commemorating the slavery of black people in America they would not be allowed either.

You can't be selectively secular. Theocracy today while dealing with this issue, secular for everything else.

This is more about the feeling of 'offense' or 'distaste', not so much about religion. Right now in America, if any organization wants to do anything in front of the Lincoln Memorial on 28 August, blacks would have no problems expressing their displeasure. 28 August 1963 is the day when Martin Luther King made his famous 'I have a dream' speech that defined his status as a civil rights leader and black civil rights in general. Americans are generally respectful of the combination of day and location about this. Nothing to do with religion.

 

[EjazR]

I do not care if the Islamic Allah exists or not. I care only about political Islam.

I see that you don't have much to counter for the rest of my post but I will pass that. However, I will agree that politco religious ideology and using Islam for politcal purposes is dangerous and I condemn it. It is against the traditional teaching of Islam as per the the Quran and Sunnah. Traditional and mainstream Islamic scholars which form the vast majority of the muslim community hold the same view.

However, I hope that just how you condemn politico-Islamist ideologues, you vehemently condemn politico-Judaistic (aka Zionist) ideolouges as well as their Christian (aka neo-con) counterparts. People likethese belong to the fringe and should be seen as the different sides of the same coin. I look forward to see your condemnation of politico-religious ideologues regardless of their religion as they have resulted in deaths of many people (muslims and non-muslims) around the world. I will be the first to agree that traditional Judaism or Christianinty has nothing to do with the politco-religious ideolouges that just want to use Christianity or Judaism for politcal motive as is done in various situations.

 

[gambit]

I see that you don't have much to counter for the rest of my post but I will pass that.

Because there is not much there.

However, I will agree that politco religious ideology and using Islam for politcal purposes is dangerous and I condemn it. It is against the traditional teaching of Islam as per the the Quran and Sunnah. Traditional and mainstream Islamic scholars which form the vast majority of the muslim community hold the same view.

And this is the point that people missed. Before Sept 11, 2001, Islam is just another religion that any celebrity can adopt for a while to call attention to himself. We were indifferent. After Sept 11, 2001, America is confused. For decades, we put up with overseas burning of our flag, a national symbol no less inspiring to Americans than symbols of other countries to their citizens, and chants of 'Death to America' and we largely dismissed such expressions as from extremists, not representative of those countries. Now we a physical and psychic scar inflicted by some who loudly proclaimed Islam as motivator for what they did.

Did we became reflexive and retributive to muslims in America like we did with Japanese-Americans? No. But that does not mean the confusion is not there. Those who denounced al-Qaeda as not representative of Islam missed the point that if Osama bin Laden cannot speak for muslims, then neither can anyone else, especially when there is no central religious authority in Islam that we can turn to for some guidance. And just about every denunciation allegedly aimed at al-Qaeda, accompanying them is the ever convenient Israel and how US foreign policy is an 'accessory' to 9/11.

No one live his life in an intellectual and moral vacuum. The 9/11 terrorists were not militant Swedish Christians. They were muslims and they drew their inspiration from the Quran, however politicized it may be, it is still FROM the Quran. Americans cannot dismiss that moral foundation. No one can and equally important that NO ONE SHOULD. If muslims can be frustrated that their religion has been 'hijacked' and that they demand that we try to understand their frustration, then why is it unreasonable and bigoted that Americans are still uncertain about Islam? Why is it our burden to sort out who can speak authoritatively for muslims?

I want this mosque built. I want it built because I believe its proximity to Ground Zero will INEVITABLY attract extremists. Muslims are no less human than we are. If muslims can be tempted by alcohol, pornography and other earthly attractions, there will be enough extremists congregating at this one place closest to Ground Zero that their hatred for US will clearly be seen by all.

 

[muse]

If muslims can be frustrated that their religion has been 'hijacked' and that they demand that we try to understand their frustration, then why is it unreasonable and bigoted that Americans are still uncertain about Islam? Why is it our burden to sort out who can speak authoritatively for muslims?

Yet another red herring - it is as if it is legitimate to argue that Christain zionists represent the total of Christianity, or that Apartheid was sanctioned by the protestant church in South Africa and why is it unreasonable to suggest that all Christians are bigoted.

The issue of who speaks for Islam seems relevant only to opposers in this instance, because any number of times the organizers of the Islamic center proposal say that Al-Qaida does not speak for Islam, the opposers will argue, then what gives you the right to speak for Islam - as if US muslims need the certification of the opposers, as no one can question their right to define Islam for everybody else.

US Islam and US Muslims are driving this project - are others around the world looking at this and seeking success or failure of this project, sure, but that does not change the fact that US Islam and US Muslims are in the drivers seat with regard to this project.

But wait, what is this US Islam? It is whatever US Muslims, not opposers say it is.

Are there extremists among Jewry, Christianity and Hindu-ism? Is the Pope really Catholic? Can these be in NY and at Ground Zero? Yes, obviously - so these canards and red herrings will not, and ought not, be seen as anything other than what they are, desperation.

Muslims of India should take a esson from this. The villification of Islam and Muslims around the world will only end when such villification is confronted by the assertion of rights and equality before the law - nothing less, nothing more.

All the tripe about "dominant culture" and the appropriation of it by radicals who seek to continue the villification of Islam and Muslims worldwide, cannot change or effect recourse to the law and equalitu before it.

 

[ARSENAL6]

How would you like it if I build a museum commemorating the conquest and rule of India by the British? If you persists on focusing on the legal aspect of this then there is no hope for you.

the Red indians didn't want their land to be destroyed nor did the Blacks wanted to become slave but that didn't stop ya.

By not having a mosque, you're indirectly are saying that all muslims are terrorist. Just because a few so called Muslim decide to commit murder.
ANd whats wrong wth Islam, nothing wrong then whats the fuss building a mosque near ground zero.

Wheres the freedom ?

 

[ARSENAL6]

Because there is not much there.


And this is the point that people missed. Before Sept 11, 2001, Islam is just another religion that any celebrity can adopt for a while to call attention to himself. We were indifferent. After Sept 11, 2001, America is confused. For decades, we put up with overseas burning of our flag, a national symbol no less inspiring to Americans than symbols of other countries to their citizens, and chants of 'Death to America' and we largely dismissed such expressions as from extremists, not representative of those countries. Now we a physical and psychic scar inflicted by some who loudly proclaimed Islam as motivator for what they did.

Did we became reflexive and retributive to muslims in America like we did with Japanese-Americans? No. But that does not mean the confusion is not there. Those who denounced al-Qaeda as not representative of Islam missed the point that if Osama bin Laden cannot speak for muslims, then neither can anyone else, especially when there is no central religious authority in Islam that we can turn to for some guidance. And just about every denunciation allegedly aimed at al-Qaeda, accompanying them is the ever convenient Israel and how US foreign policy is an 'accessory' to 9/11.

No one live his life in an intellectual and moral vacuum. The 9/11 terrorists were not militant Swedish Christians. They were muslims and they drew their inspiration from the Quran, however politicized it may be, it is still FROM the Quran. Americans cannot dismiss that moral foundation. No one can and equally important that NO ONE SHOULD. If muslims can be frustrated that their religion has been 'hijacked' and that they demand that we try to understand their frustration, then why is it unreasonable and bigoted that Americans are still uncertain about Islam? Why is it our burden to sort out who can speak authoritatively for muslims?

I want this mosque built. I want it built because I believe its proximity to Ground Zero will INEVITABLY attract extremists. Muslims are no less human than we are. If muslims can be tempted by alcohol, pornography and other earthly attractions, there will be enough extremists congregating at this one place closest to Ground Zero that their hatred for US will clearly be seen by all.

THink of all the atrocities that US has done Muslim it doesn't span just from 9/11 it goes way back
Iran, Palestine etc.....

 

[GentlemanObserver]

THink of all the atrocities that US has done Muslim it doesn't span just from 9/11 it goes way back
Iran, Palestine etc.....

Well you know what they say:

It's okay to preach and pontificate which is pretty much what Gambit and Solomon have been doing here, post after post of senseless rebuke with only a few posts highlighting issues that are of real substance.

I also find it funny that many people in the US actually see Muslim American's as "outsiders", whatever happened to the land of the free? Furthermore there is a segment of the western world that still blames Islam as a whole for the atrocities committed by those who attacked the WTC.

The irony is that more "innocent" Muslim's have died since 9/11 then non Muslims. What is more frustrating is seeing prominent figures in the US label Islam as a blight on the world.... Excuse me? If i remember history correctly there was another political movement that shared similar views regarding jews... And look what happened there?

There have been some wonderful rebuttal from Asim, Ejaz, Baghat and others that i felt genuinely described the issue facing this debate and those were cast aside using the bulldozer of "sentiments"...

What i found extremely queer was the statement by Gambit stating i or others on this forum were "butting in" on a national issue... , last time i checked they are free to comment on everything from our elections, nuclear weapons through to daily lives and religion, so why the double standards?

As if that was not strange enough, comments such as american muslims being referred to as "sub-citizens" by people on this forum are really shocking to me. Statements like "america has had to put up with this"... What is THIS exactly?

And what of scaremongering words such as Islam's triumphant, conquering or dominating over our values? If i remember correctly another bigot in history said the following:

"Hitler's address to the Nazi Party: "Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end satanically glaring at and spying on the unconscious girl whom he plans to seduce, adulterating her blood with the ultimate idea of bastardizing the white race which they hate and thus lowering its cultural and political level so that the Jew might dominate.":
The Nazi Party (NSDAP)

At present those who oppose the construction of Cordoba house have taken the following attitude to any rebuke or debate from the supporters of the building:

However whilst there are many who are using this as an oppertunity to exploit the "fear" and "emotions" of the american people in a petty attempt to breed "hatred" for Islam to segregate the wider american community, there are also those who see this as an opportunity to build bridges and promote tolerance, understanding and brotherhood within the american peoples:

New York Neighbors for American Values | Just another WordPress site

Announcing New Coalition in Support of Cordoba House/Park 51
Today, Aug. 25, more than 40 prominent organizations, civic groups, leaders and religious and interfaith groups will join together to announce the creation of a coalition in support of religious freedom and diversity and to rebuff the increasingly strident opposition to a proposed Islamic center near Ground Zero. New York Neighbors for American Values embraces the American constitutional values of religious freedom, diversity and equality. We stand together today to reject the crude stereotypes meant to frighten and divide us.

---
AND FYI Gambit: I can talk on any issue here, including American National issues... Just like you can talk on any issue pertaining to Pakistan... Toodles.

 

[lcloo]

One of the US members on this threat is from US cyber warfare unit. He will make you frustracted in your anti-American postings, you can't win because he is a trained professional and has the government resources to back him up.

I rather not respond to him, that will make him frastracted in turn.

 

[fallstuff]

One of the US members on this threat is from US cyber warfare unit. He will make you frustracted in your anti-American postings, you can't win because he is a trained professional and has the government resources to back him up.

I rather not respond to him, that will make him frastracted in turn.

I wouldn't be too surprised if that is the case. What brought you to your conclusions ?

 

[lcloo]

The profile and characteristc are

1. His post are mostly reactive, always repond to those threat that are biased agaisnt USA. He job is to seek out those threads and neutralise them. So he seldom post new thread.

2. Unlike most pro US members, he is very meticulous in checking out every sentence of postings that he answered

3. His postings are very clear in using words, and very knowlegeable in subjects being discussed.

4. He never thank anyone, that is not his job.

 

[gambit]

What i found extremely queer was the statement by Gambit stating i or others on this forum were "butting in" on a national issue... ,

Not surprised that you missed the point. It is not that you cannot comment on US national issues on this forum. After all, this is your playground and am only a guest. The point here is that in support of your criticisms of Americans' objections over this proposed triumphalist structure, if you drop celebrity names like Clinton or Bloomberg, I have Miss USA, who claimed the same religious identity as you...

Muslim Miss USA: Move mosque from ground zero - TODAY Fashion & Beauty - Beauty Pageants - TODAYshow.com

“I totally agree with President Obama with the statement on constitutional rights of freedom of religion,” Fakih, 24, said from Las Vegas, where she represented the USA at the Miss Universe pageant Monday night. But she added: “I also agree that it shouldn’t be so close to the World Trade Center. We should be more concerned with the tragedy than religion.”

If you bring up how Iranians held candle vigils for 9/11 victims, I will bring up the mostly silent ME about this mosque...

Mideast Passions Quiet Over NY Mosque Showdown - CBS News

"The mosque is not an issue for Muslims and they don't care about it being built," wrote Saudi columnist Abdel Rahman Rashed in the pan-Arab Asharq al-Awsat newspaper.

"Some Muslims would even consider building a mosque there would be a permanent reminder of the acts of terrorists, who carried out their crime in the name of Islam," he added.

So if we appreciate Iranians' sympathy for US back on Sept 11, 2001, why is it so impossible for you to have the same apathy as the muslims in the ME about this mosque? Do they not outnumber you? Do those who are silent about it outnumber those who would opine about it? Is it even possible that those muslims who oppose the mosque outnumber those who support? Too uncomfortable to contemplate, may be? You are no less of a 'sheeple' than other religious people, be they Jews or Christians or Rastafarians, that mean like a good follower you should take a cue from the flock and examine why are they so quiet about this over there.

 

[fallstuff]

Bangladeshi Muslim Taxi driver viciously stabbed in New York City


It's not clear what if anything the attack on a New York City cab driver, a Muslim and Bangladeshi immigrant allegedly by a white 21-year old college student from upstate New York, had to do with the controversy over the proposed Islamic Center in Lower Manhattan.

But some observers have feared from the start of the superheated debate over the proposed Islamic center which would contain a mosque only a few blocks from Ground that hostility toward the project could lead to violence.

New York Gov. David Paterson said during an radio interview on WOR-AM:

"This is what the terrorists really want. This is the terrorists getting a yield on their investment when they attacked this country and blew up the World Trade Center. That we're now fighting each other. This is making their day."



Council of American Islamic Relations executive director, Nihad Awad, said:

"As other American minorities have experienced, hate speech often leads to hate crimes," said CAIR National Executive Director Nihad Awad. "Sadly, we've seen how the deliberate public vilification of Islam can lead some individuals to violence against innocent people. It's time for responsible leaders to speak up to stop irresponsible and inflammatory rhetoric."

The case has some some unusual aspects because of the background of the alleged assailant, 21-year old college student Michael Enright.

Enright was a volunteer in Afghanistan with the non-profit group called Intersections that's dedicated to global understanding and reconciliation. To say the least, work for such a program usually isn't found in the background of someone alleged to have committed a hate crime.

Enright also made a movie on the experience of a former high school classmate's Army unit before and during its deployment to Afghanistan.

According to the cab driver and New York City police, Enright allegedly attacked cab driver Ahmed H. Sharif, age 43, after entering his vehicle in lower Manhattan on Tuesday evening.

After asking the driver if he was a Muslim and receiving an affirmative answer, Enright uttered the Arabic greeting, A Salaam Alaikum, then said something like "Consider this a checkpoint," then began stabbing the driver with a Leatherman knife.

The driver locked his doors and drove until he spotted police. According to news reports, Enright allegedly bolted from the cab and tried to get away but was quickly caught.

Police and the cabbie said he appeared drunk, with police saying he was so incoherent they brought him to Bellevue Hospital for an initial psychiatric evaluation. Enright remained in custody Thursday without bail.

The attack on the cab driver was not the only anti-Muslim incident drawing the attention of New Yorkers.

An allegedly drunken man identified as Omar Rivera, is accused of entering a Queens mosque during prayers on Wednesday, shouting obscenities and anti-Muslim epithets and, urinating on prayer rugs.


NY Attack On Muslim Cabbie Spurs Calls To Cool Rhetoric : The Two-Way : NPR

 

[Tuahaa]

They will never accept us... bas.