The Ground-zero mosque, continued

[Coltsfan]

Dedicated to well meaning opposers:


Tennessee No Evil - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/25/2010 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

No hiding, no evasion - reality is that whether Ground Zero or elsewhere, you just have a problem with Islam in the US, with US Muslims, both of these are terroism and terrorists to opposers - which is fine, it's OK, you don't have to like it or approve it.

That Laurie Cordoza chick seems like a newer version of Sarah Palin


This mosque issues wouldn't even be an issue if it wasn't an election year, this thing is gonna hover around for a few months till November election and then its gonna go away.

Republicans are trying to energize their voters at any cost, they have no problem coming across as religious bigots and xenophobes.

 

[muse]

Look at it this way...That those pictures may signal future American public response and sentiment to all those decades of muslims, in their own countries, burning US flags and calling for 'Death to America'. Over there, the muslim governments encourages such anti-US demonstrations. Here, the US government need not do anything. Clinton and Bloomberg could not ease the American public anger. Just as the muslims have every legal right to build this triumphalist structure, American citizens have every legal right to public protest

A couple of interesting issues here Gambit, lets try and help you see your way through these - the first of these is the issue of the failure of the US foreign policy -- The policy has been less than a success, would you agree? Now if I or you were an author of books and we complained that people do not recieve our books well, would it be fair to blame the readers? Obviously not.

The next issue, that governments of Muslim majority states use anti-American sentiment - Yes and no - Yes, sometimes it is a political convenience, other times it is not - but how is this a beef against US Muslims? If as you say you have first hand experience, then you know that Americans and American ideals are popular but US policy is very unpopular. Allow me to pose this question to you, what Obligation do US Muslims have to approve US foreign policy?? Should Foreign policy be one that they can support?? refer to the author who compains that his readership are uncouth because they find his work unappealing.

The other issue, one with which you seem to be a challenege for you, is the realization that US muslims are US citizens, with constitutional gaurantees - you seem to think that by just suggesting that the US muslims are not in internment camps, yet, is sufficient to silence them - there will be no internment camps exclusively for US Muslims, you can take that to the bank - in this bathhouse we are all naked, as the saying goes.

I think and I may be wrong, but I think, that to you, the role of US Muslims is one where they are to be restricted as cheerleaders for a narrow group of ideologically motivated individuals, whether as approvers or disapprovers of US foreign policy, unfortunately this is a rather limited and limiting view of the US and society in the US, indeed, on many levels it's a betrayal of American ideals.

 

[fallstuff]

All America is hallowed ground for freedom

By Bridget Kustin
U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom
2007-2009


Last week, I returned to Baltimore after spending a summer researching Islam, finance, and politics in Bangladesh. I still haven't unpacked--I want to preserve the memories of hospitality and gratitude that couldn't be captured in my field notes. The smell of wood smoke on clothes worn as my village host prepared me an elaborate Ramadan fast-breaking meal. The parting gift of pungent spices from an Islamic bank officer who accompanied me across my rural field site, answering my questions for hours. And when I arrived home, an email from one of Bangladesh's most senior figures in Islamic banking and politics was waiting for me, asking if I made it back safely.

As I recovered from jet lag the day after my return, a passenger asked a cab driver in New York City if he was Muslim. When the cab driver responded affirmatively, the 21-year old passenger offered the traditional "Assalamu alaikum" greeting, then apparently slashed the driver's throat and stabbed his arms and face. According to news reports, this horrific act will be charged as a hate crime.
The cab driver was an immigrant. He came to America 25 years ago from Bangladesh.

Critics of the proposed "Ground Zero" Cordoba House insist that America is exceptional because opposition to different religions and religious institutions is expressed peacefully. This is not true. Violence against Muslims is not systematic or state-sponsored, but it still occurs. These individual violent acts are all but sanctioned by media and political figures who undermine the humanity of Muslims by calling their religion inherently violent, or an existential threat to "American values," or an innate threat to national security.
A less severe position is that Muslims can be good Americans, but projects such as Cordoba House are insensitive. According to these critics, constitutional rights should be subject to good taste.
Commissioners Richard Land and Nina Shea of the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF), a federal advisory body, have opposed Cordoba House as insensitive and as a potential security risk, respectively. USCIRF commissioner chair Leonard Leo directs a Tea Party group collecting signatures against Cordoba House, billed on its website as an "affront to decency and common sense."
The irony of American advocates of religious freedom opposing a Muslim community center would make for pitch-perfect political comedy a là The Daily Show if it wasn't so deeply troubling. As a former USCIRF employee, the deep disconnect between these commissioners' overseas advocacy and their domestic intolerance of the religious freedom of Muslims suggests to me that Islamophobia has worked its way well into the mainstream.

During my tenure at USCIRF from 2007 to 2009--first in communications and then as South Asia researcher--commissioners defended the right of religious minorities to build and maintain their religious institutions, no matter the popular objections or prevailing social norms. Among the countries in my portfolio, commissioners argued for the rights of Christians to maintain churches in Orissa, India, despite strong anti-Christian sentiment grounded partially in the fear of "forced conversions." In Pakistan, commissioners defended the right of persecuted Ahmadis to call themselves Muslims and call their houses of worship mosques--despite the widespread, impassioned belief that Ahmadis are not 'real' Muslims.

Commissioners criticized Sri Lankan government for citing security concerns while restricting the freedom of individuals to worship where and how they pleased.

Indeed, USCIRF advocacy is generally dedicated to upholding Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which states that every individual has the right, "alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance." Commissioners Land, Leo, and Shea should protect Cordoba House under Article 18 with the same vigor they have extended to foreign countries.

In Bangladesh this past summer, I met many Muslim Bangladeshis who excitedly told me about friends or relatives living in the United States, while gamely answering my probing questions about Islam. How shameful that being Muslim in the United States is now suddenly enough to have one's religious freedom restricted via popular pressure--or even to get one killed.

To my host community in Bangladesh, and to my fellow Americans: that cab driver's life is just as innocent and just as valuable as any of the 3,000 lost on September 11, 2001. All of America is hallowed ground for the freedoms that have made this country great. There is no greater affront to decency than to allow the slow erosion of our commitment to tolerance


Link:

Guest Voices: All America is hallowed ground for freedom - On Faith at washingtonpost.com

 

[muse]

The irony of American advocates of religious freedom opposing a Muslim community center would make for pitch-perfect political comedy a là The Daily Show if it wasn't so deeply troubling. As a former USCIRF employee, the deep disconnect between these commissioners' overseas advocacy and their domestic intolerance of the religious freedom of Muslims suggests to me that Islamophobia has worked its way well into the mainstream

The deep disconnect the author refers to is known all too well by those who experience US policy - Duplicity. It is no badge of honor, yet in the US increeasing numbers, if polls are to be believed, do wear it as a badge of honor.

 

[gambit]

A couple of interesting issues here Gambit, lets try and help you see your way through these -

Help me? Like the French said: 'Mercy Bucket.'

...the first of these is the issue of the failure of the US foreign policy -- The policy has been less than a success, would you agree? Now if I or you were an author of books and we complained that people do not recieve our books well, would it be fair to blame the readers? Obviously not.

What is a 'nation'?

Nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A nation is a group of people who share culture, ethnic origin and language, often possessing or seeking its own independent government.

A 'state' is a political body that rule over a 'nation'.

A 'country' is merely a geographical locale. Europe is a country, so is Africa and the Americas.

Combine all three together and we have a greater definition of 'country', which is a geographical locale that has a respected boundary, populated by a group that shares some common bonds, and that group is ruled over by a 'state'.

Muslims have their own countries where they live as they like. Sounds like a resounding successful foreign policy to me.

The next issue, that governments of Muslim majority states use anti-American sentiment - Yes and no - Yes, sometimes it is a political convenience, other times it is not - but how is this a beef against US Muslims? If as you say you have first hand experience, then you know that Americans and American ideals are popular but US policy is very unpopular.

Nonsense. American ideals are not popular in the ME. Particulars may be, but not the encompassing liberalism, comparatively speaking, that we generically labeled as 'American ideals'. We do not believe in burqas or anything similar for women. Muslims in the ME do. We do not believe in theocracies. Muslims in the ME do. And the differences list is considerable.

Allow me to pose this question to you, what Obligation do US Muslims have to approve US foreign policy?? Should Foreign policy be one that they can support?? refer to the author who compains that his readership are uncouth because they find his work unappealing.

None.

The other issue, one with which you seem to be a challenege for you, is the realization that US muslims are US citizens, with constitutional gaurantees - you seem to think that by just suggesting that the US muslims are not in internment camps, yet, is sufficient to silence them - there will be no internment camps exclusively for US Muslims, you can take that to the bank - in this bathhouse we are all naked, as the saying goes.

I think and I may be wrong, but I think, that to you, the role of US Muslims is one where they are to be restricted as cheerleaders for a narrow group of ideologically motivated individuals, whether as approvers or disapprovers of US foreign policy, unfortunately this is a rather limited and limiting view of the US and society in the US, indeed, on many levels it's a betrayal of American ideals.

This is typical of the 'victimization' strawman argument. No one is talking about constitutional rights and liberties. And rhetorical challenges do not constitute attempts to 'silence' anyone. In this bathhouse, we democrats (not Democrats), are not afraid of stripping ourselves bare. But let us narrow the focus lens a bit. The latest investigations shows that the mosque developer/financier has legal run-ins as recent as 2005 with an assault charge. He owes over $200k in back taxes on that property, which he does not totally owned, by the way. And that he refuses to divulge the (potential) sources of his funding. So who is trying to cover up in the bathhouse here?

 

[muse]

No one is talking about constitutional rights and liberties. And rhetorical challenges do not constitute attempts to 'silence' anyone. In this bathhouse, we democrats (not Democrats), are not afraid of stripping ourselves bare.

That's exactly right - you're not talking about constitutional gaurantees because you position would not have a leg to stand on.

let us narrow the focus lens a bit. The latest investigations shows that the mosque developer/financier has legal run-ins as recent as 2005 with an assault charge. He owes over $200k in back taxes on that property, which he does not totally owned, by the way. And that he refuses to divulge the (potential) sources of his funding. So who is trying to cover up in the bathhouse here?

Well, obviously if he owes back taxes, he's got problems, but I wonder if these are the sort of problems that won't sort themselves out?

Is there a legal requirement that the developer of a privately owned property "divulge" his financial sources, if there is then he most certanly should - again, not soething that's sounds like a deal breaker/

 

[gambit]

That's exactly right - you're not talking about constitutional gaurantees because you position would not have a leg to stand on.

Provided that constitutional liberties were the foundation of the objection to this triumphalist structure in the first place, which they were not. On the other hand, when the muslims had to fall back to legalism, then there is no reason why this mosque MUST be built so close to Ground Zero. Miss USA, who is a muslim, objects. Surely her celebrity status must mean something because her being a muslim did counted for much celebration, right?

Well, obviously if he owes back taxes, he's got problems, but I wonder if these are the sort of problems that won't sort themselves out?

Sure...Pay the back taxes. But that begs the question of why they were 'back'.

Is there a legal requirement that the developer of a privately owned property "divulge" his financial sources, if there is then he most certanly should - again, not soething that's sounds like a deal breaker/

Construction companies do not work on unsecured IOUs. They want guarantees that they will be paid for their services. The more money involved, the greater the scrutiny of the financing. US laws said that no money from hostile governments may be used. Or are you saying the muslims are exempted from local laws?

 

[muse]

US laws said that no money from hostile governments may be used

And of course US law also gaurantees right to private property and Religious freedoms - I think that gthere should not be much of a problem raising money in the US and Europe and in Middle East and in Asia - i like it.

 

[Unbeliever]

Well I think legally they can build it, although zoning is a right of the city for all buildings. A church in the area has been declined for example.
The more important question though.

Is it an extreme provocation?

Obviously, and intended as such as well, thats why it is called the "Cordoba" mosque (a place of Islamic conquest where a church was converted into a mosque) and was supposed to open on September 11th.

"moderate" and sensible Muslims are and should be protesting such a cruel provocation.
Furthermore it being operated by someone who endorsed Hamas and it being financed by the crazy Wahabis in Saudi-Arabia (the country were 15 of the 9/11 hijackers came from) doesnt make the situation any better.

Watch: (don't pay attention to the center pick, that is used to make a point not as an insult)

 

[GentlemanObserver]

^^ I don't know if i should laugh or cry at Unbeliever's post and the logic exhibited within.

FYI:
Local mother of 9/11 victim supports mosque : News : CNYCentral.com
9/11 Families Join In Support of Mosque Near Ground Zero | United States | Epoch Times


Announcing New Coalition in Support of Cordoba House/Park 51

On, Aug. 25, more than 40 prominent organizations, civic groups, leaders and religious and interfaith groups joined together to announce the creation of a coalition in support of religious freedom and diversity and to rebuff the increasingly strident opposition to a proposed Islamic center near Ground Zero. New York Neighbors for American Values embraces the American constitutional values of religious freedom, diversity and equality. We stand together today to reject the crude stereotypes meant to frighten and divide us.

WHAT: Press Conference to Announce New Coalition Supporting Religious Freedom
WHERE: Municipal Building (One Centre Street)
WHEN: 12 p.m. Wednesday, August 25, 2010

SPEAKERS INCLUDE:

September Eleventh Families for Peaceful Tomorrows
Faiza Ali, Community Affairs Director Council on American-Islamic Relations –NY
Imam Abdul Baqi, Islamic Leadership Council of New York
Rev. Dr. Donna Schaper, President, New Sanctuary Movement and the Judson Memorial Church
Donna Lieberman, Executive Director, New York Civil Liberties Union
Susan Lerner, Executive Director, Common Cause/NY

New York Neighbors for American Values | Just another WordPress site

--

So if the victim's families don't have a problem... What is the "big deal" here. And FYI No.2, it's no where near Ground Zero... Learn to read maps!

 

[muse]

Unbeliever

Don't fall for this "see your jihad and raise you a ..." that's not what this is about - by the way, this issue is just a super, super issue and it is a sure defeat for opposers - and that will set the stage for more contentious, more abrasive positions by opposers - and they will fall one by one - because so long as the opposers are outside the US constitution and US Muslims within it, the opposers are gauranteed defeat. Now the reason I am very hopeful is that opposers have set themselves up for a fall, not of their silly opposer movement, but the fall of an entire wall against US Muslims both inside and outside the US. Slam dunk - it won't happen overnight, at least I hope not, but it cannot be stopped by all the opposers in the world, I don't mean the Mosque in Manhattan thing, I mean the fall of the wall against US Muslims. Hallelujah

 

[fallstuff]

Well I think legally they can build it, although zoning is a right of the city for all buildings. A church in the area has been declined for example.
The more important question though.

Is it an extreme provocation?

Obviously, and intended as such as well, thats why it is called the "Cordoba" mosque (a place of Islamic conquest where a church was converted into a mosque) and was supposed to open on September 11th.

"moderate" and sensible Muslims are and should be protesting such a cruel provocation.
Furthermore it being operated by someone who endorsed Hamas and it being financed by the crazy Wahabis in Saudi-Arabia (the country were 15 of the 9/11 hijackers came from) doesnt make the situation any better.

Watch: (don't pay attention to the center pick, that is used to make a point not as an insult)
YouTube - 'Tolerance' and the 'Ground Zero Mosque'

Bigots are certainly not confined to the land of free.

 

[fallstuff]

Unbeliever

Don't fall for this "see your jihad and raise you a ..." that's not what this is about - by the way, this issue is just a super, super issue and it is a sure defeat for opposers - and that will set the stage for more contentious, more abrasive positions by opposers - and they will fall one by one - because so long as the opposers are outside the US constitution and US Muslims within it, the opposers are gauranteed defeat. Now the reason I am very hopeful is that opposers have set themselves up for a fall, not of their silly opposer movement, but the fall of an entire wall against US Muslims both inside and outside the US. Slam dunk - it won't happen overnight, at least I hope not, but it cannot be stopped by all the opposers in the world, I don't mean the Mosque in Manhattan thing, I mean the fall of the wall against US Muslims. Hallelujah

you maybe right as far as the constitution is concerned.

But these guys are facing boiling room pressure possibly coupled with death threats. Not to mention the behind the screen manuevers going on.

 

[muse]

Yes, you are right - I have hear Americans say that freedom is not free. To be free of opposers they have to be confronted and with the law on your side, more than half the battle is won.

 

[moha199]

i always laugh at this, muslims had this place turned into mosqe for past 40 years and now the are all doing is making it taller! or reconstruction! this place was there before world trade centers. It will have swiming pool day care for muslim kids, muslim school, etc .... I'm a American Muslim and a proud one but this hype makes me feel that it's not the same USA which always looked after her people regardless of their faith... It's like a Jew is living in some area and then one day one jew from Israel come to that street and do some mischife and then we accuse the jew who had been there for decades and once he want to rebuild his house for bettement of his family we go crying to town hall and say wait this jew shouldn't rebuild his house because it remind rest of the street people for that incident! WTF it's sick man ugh