The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

[toxic_pus]

yes of course its extremely complicated....hindustany say plebicite is not possible at this point; i personally dont see why it isnt.

If the new britisher ''report'' that came out on Kashmir is to be believed, then i dont see what objections hindustanys would have to it

its a land dispute....not an ethnic dispute. Demographics have changed all over the place. Many Kashmiris also voluntarily left on Pakistani side and hindustany-occupied side -- to larger cities in search of jobs.

forget the demographics....given status quo, just hold the plebicite. I personally think the whole thing about demographics is exaggerated and over-stated bullshit. But that's my view.

The reason why plebiscite can't be held now, inspite of the status quo, is that the three basic preconditions to plebiscite have yet not been fulfilled. Condition#1 is that Pakistan shall withdraw all its troops and citizens from the part of Kashmir that is 'currently under their control'. Condition#2 is that, subsequent to Pakistan's withdrawal, India shall reduce troop strength to a level acceptable to UN. Condition#3 is that, the land evacuated by Pak will be governed by 'local authority' under direct supervision of UN.

Only if these conditions are fulfilled, movement towards plebiscite can begin.

Since you are suggesting a plebiscite now, in accordance to the situation that exists on the ground, you seem to want to bypass UN imposed conditions. So here is a quick question: would the result of a plebiscite conducted entirely by GoI be acceptable to you (leave GoP out because they have enough cranium power to suggest an extra-UN plebiscite)? If it is not, feel free to propose a mechanism to ensure neutrality (without referring to UN, of course).

ask the people LIVING IN THE LANDS -- people who call those lands HOME -- what they want to do.

the fact that hindustanys dont allow non-Kashmiris to purchase land is interesting. Then please don't feed me the lines that it is integral part of hindustan when you arent granting the 2 sides equal rights.

Yes, we should abolish Article 370 immediately, flood the valley with Indians from rest of the country, and when we have completely skewed the demographics in our favour, we will conduct a plebiscite.

Capiche.

i heard of Muslim celebrities not being able to buy land in Mumbai. Same deal.


In Pakistan our mentality is different. If you have the cash, you can buy the land. Doesnt matter who you are --especially among Muslims. We dont think about ethnicity or other things. A Baluch Pakistani could pack up one day and go buy property in Gilgit if he wanted to, if he had the means to do so.

Yes, we are aware of Pakistani mentality. It is not for no reason that you lost your Eastern wing. Having no respect for indigenous populations and their aspirations, is not something to be proud of.

 

[vsdoc]

Our Indian Kashmir state. Our Indian Kashmiri people. Our Indian Kashmir solution. By us Indians. For us Indians. All 1.2 billion Indians. Simple.

For too long we have pretended to be bothered by what Pakistan thinks or will do.

For too long have we pretended to be bothered by what the world thinks of us as a fair and mature democratic player pitted against the exact opposite in this 6 decade old tussle.

For too long have we been playing footsie with ex-separatist now-official-system elements within Kashmir.

For too long have we pandered to one population of Kashmir at the cost of others, in the name of being fair to the minority religion of our country.

For too long have we called ourselves secular, yet been hostage to vote bank politics that threatens the very fabric of our nation.

For too long has each successive Indian government dragged its feet in Kashmir in a bid to maintain status quo during its tenure, passing the parcel of a definitive solution on to its successor.

Its been more than 20 years since the violence broke out.

10 years after the violence broke out, both countries officially went nuclear. We missed our opportunities before. We missed a golden opportunity then.

Kashmir since then and now is a zero sum game. Any other way of looking at it is flying in LSD and magic mushroom territory. Or Afghan black. Or Malana cream. Depending on your preference.

85 pages of discussions. Some civil, some not. But the bottom line from both sides remains the same. If a forum full of highly educated and intelligent people (for the most part) cannot come to some mutually satisfactory solution in cyber world in an imaginative non-binding no strings attached environment, then I am really sorry to say that in the real world, with some really spectacular loonies on both sides, with our leaders thrown in for good measure, in the backdrop of the history of blood and violence that we share, a solution to Kashmir is just not going to happen. Not now. Not ever.

The Indians have put forth solutions to the Pakistanis. I have been one of them. The Pakistanis are bent on manipulation, cross border terrorism, playing the nuclear MAD card, and wet dreams of an untenable plebiscite.

So what do we do? Should we wait for eternity for the Pakistanis to give up to the inevitable, and maintain a military staus quo till then? Sure we do. We know Pakistan is never ever going to be in a position of aggression vis-a-vis India today or tomorrow. So we sit tight, and defend. That's what we have been doing, and what we should continue to do.

But that's not all. India wants more. Indians want more. And amongst those Indians, Kashmiris want more. Its really unfair for Pakistan to behave like a "dog in the manger" here, where if it cannot get something, it makes sure that others do not either. Especially seen in the backdrop of them holding the good of the Kashmiri people paramount in their hearts. Pakistan today needs to realise that they are not wanted. Not by Indians obviously. And increasingly not by the Kashmiris whom they claim to champion, whether the Kashmiris want it or not.

So in the interim, what should India and we Indians do? That is what we need to concentrate upon. That is what our leaders need to concentrate upon. That is what our Kashmiris, wherever they may be, need to concentrate upon.

While our warriors ensure the peace and the space needed to make that happen.

And that is what we Indian posters here on PDF too should concentrate on, instead of regurgitating the same you said, I said, you did, I did, your Kashmir, our Kashmir, nawab vs UN rehashed content again and again and again ad nauseum all over the ******** forum.

So hope to see some really constructive posts moving forward about what we Indians should be doing about our Kashmir and our Kashmiri brothers instead of the really boring and brain numbing regular Indo-Pak saas bahu tu tu main main ritual that is de rigeur here.

Cheers, Doc

 

[vsdoc]

Since I am the one whose brain is totally numbed here, and it was I who made the suggestion, let me also kick off the process of constructive Indian solutions for Indian kashmir, by Indians and for Indians.

I am in no way or form insinuating that Pakistanis are not wanted in this discussion (fully tongue in cheek seeing I am an Indian on a Pakistani forum ). I am merely trying to add some substance to a discussion and thread that has become very repetitive and boring, with each successive generation rehashing the same lines, and with some die hard fossils indulging in cross generational rehashing, yours truly included.

I say this with the luxury of distance and absence, coming back after an extended hiatus, and seeing old wine in an old bottle, where simply the drinkers have changed, as a natural progression of coming of legal age I suppose.

So let me start.

I saw this kickass movie last night. As with most good things in life, it happened by chance, as I was bored of Discovery Turbo and was flipping channels and happened on to it.

The movie is called "Sikandar", set in Kashmir, and the usual protagonists - the Army, the People, and the Jihadis, seen from the eyes of the forgotten innocents - the children of Kashmir.

I am a father, I have kids of my own, and while I am not usually a softie, I was really touched. As were my kids who watched the movie along with me, with their mama grumbling about school the next day and how I would be responsible for waking them up. I truly from my heart invite all of you to see this movie. It has Madhavan as the upright army officer with soul. My old classmate from school, who we used to call balaji for some reason.

It set me thinking. Obviously its an Indian movie, so lets not get into the dramatisation and the right and wrong of things. But look at the bigger message. The kids of Kashmir.

They are the Kashmiris we need to concentrate on. They are still young. Impressionable. Innocent. They are the generation not yet hardened by hate or pain or death or clash of loyalties or religious and social indoctrination or polarisation or isolation or hopelessness or fear or terror or poverty or despondency.

Not yet. But allowed to grow up like the generation before them in violence torn Kashmir, they will grow into the same mold of their mothers and fathers. It is inevitable, and India would lose another generation.

We need to find a way of engaging these kids into mainstream India. Class tours. Competitions. Sports. Exchange students. Subsidised boarding schools. Summer camps. Holiday tours. And for this we need it to be done not by the government, seen as "center" or "sarkar" by the Kashmiris in general. Neither should it involve the army as is being practiced as an exercise in rehabilitation of tamil kids in Sri Lanka. But it should be funded by Industry, by corporates, by institutions, with equal participation of common regular Indians, including our mainstream Muslim community and its elders and opinion leaders.

Let the kids of Kashmir into our day to day lives of mainstream India. Let them mix and play and learn and fight with our kids. Let them see the vastness and greatness and diversity of our country. Let them feel the love of all Indians, hindus, sikhs, christians, buddhists, jains, parsis. Let them see that we consider them to be our own. Let them see the wealth and the standard of living in regular Indians towns and villages and cities and homes. Let them see our roads and facilities and malls and factories and dairies and farms and dams and schools and colleges and movie halls. Let them see all this without the ever looming fear of the gun or the bomb.

What a strong line, so touching in its childlike simplicity - "Ab hum mahfooz hain."

Let this generation of Kashmiris grow up with Indians as Indians. Not as Kashmiris in isolation. Let them then go back to their families and homes and mosques and playgrounds and bazaars and question age old prejudices and lines of thought of their elders. Let them be the medium of change. And then let them grow into adults as fully integrated Indians.

That is what we need to do.

Cheers, Doc

 

[rubyjackass]

ask the people LIVING IN THE LANDS -- people who call those lands HOME -- what they want to do.

the fact that hindustanys dont allow non-Kashmiris to purchase land is interesting. Then please don't feed me the lines that it is integral part of hindustan when you arent granting the 2 sides equal rights.

That is something India should decide for itself. Besides Indian constitution clearly is in sync with this. I dont see any contradiction.

i heard of Muslim celebrities not being able to buy land in Mumbai. Same deal.


In Pakistan our mentality is different. If you have the cash, you can buy the land. Doesnt matter who you are --especially among Muslims. We dont think about ethnicity or other things. A Baluch Pakistani could pack up one day and go buy property in Gilgit if he wanted to, if he had the means to do so.

Thats not exactly something to be proud of in this matter. That is exactly what is alienating some provinces in Pak. It is not a muslim thing at all. It is a special safeguard applicable only to Kashmiris, not any form of racism.

 

[vsdoc]

The second step of re/mainstreaming Kashmir into the Indian success story is removing the archaic and in the current context discriminatory provisions of isolating Kashmir from the rest of India and non-Kashmiri Indians. I am not a great admirer of Nehru truth be told, and I think this was not one of his particularly bright brainwaves.

Of course we need to do this in a fair and transparent manner which does not alarm the local Kashmiris or cause them to ghetto-ise in insecurity with the influx from mainstream India. It should not be either seen as the opportunity to land grab by the ever ready and present opportunist land sharks all over our country. Also, as with the rest of our country, religion should steadfastly be refused entry as a consideration moving forward.

The formula needs to be worked out by us Indians, legislated on by our judiciary impartially, enacted upon by Parliament, and enforced and protected by our civilian police and paramilitary forces so that there is smooth, painless and peaceful assimilation of Kashmir and Kashmiris into industry, governance, agriculture, and social fabric. As also protect corporates who should come forward to invest heavily in Kashmir.

I feel there should still be restrictions on private individual land purchases, in order to prevent the inundation of the state and the complete commercialisation of the natural beauty and resources, thus spoiling one of the most beautiful parts of our country as we have done to so many of our once pristine hill stations. But industry has to come in.

As a result of Nehruvian stupidity, Kashmir never had any industry, and tourism was its only source of income. Great when things were ok and peaceful, but not so over the past quarter a century. The local population has suffered in grinding poverty as a result. And have been exploited by vested interests who desire just this as fertile ground to spread their message of hatred, discontent, and violence. Tourism basically gave way to Jihadism as a cottage industry, as the ONLY industry for the past few generations of Kashmiris who saw no better and easier alternative to meet their growing aspirations, but were bound in their own homeland, crippled by the lack of opportunity that the unrest brought with it.

But industry will not move in if their infrastructure investments are not protected. If their workers are not proected. And if there is no place for their workers to live. To be competitive, there will have to be an influx of talent from other states of India. But equally there would be a form of quota or reservation for the locals too. Thus it would be a win win situation for all. And once the wheels of commerce start turning, the same kids I spoke about in my last post, would have the opportunities and a shot at the standard of living their other compatriots enjoyed all over the country.

Less excuses to resort to the gun. More motivation for peace, settlement, and reintegration. Less opportunities for Jihadist recruiters from within the country and without.

The power of the Indian rupee will be felt across the state, and then we would get a true representation of what is really important to the Kashmiri people.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Jade]

In Pakistan our mentality is different. If you have the cash, you can buy the land. Doesnt matter who you are --especially among Muslims. We dont think about ethnicity or other things. A Baluch Pakistani could pack up one day and go buy property in Gilgit if he wanted to, if he had the means to do so.

The people of Gilgit-Baltistan cannot even vote to elect the president, the prime minister, or the members of the National Assembly but you people want their land. What an irony.

Anyway by allowing people from other areas of Pakistan to settle in NA, you yourself are diluting UN resolutions. Don't you know that NA is a part of 'disputed' J&K

 

[vsdoc]

Sport is an important national unifier. It has been proven true across sports, across continents, across people, across religions and races, throughout history.

One example that comes readily to mind, is the post-Apartheid coming together of black and white South Africa over what was, has always been, and still is their No.1 national passion - Rugby.

Who can forget the photos of a frail Nelson Mandela wearing the springbok yellow jersey and hugging the huge white captain after SA lifted the World Cup, after being out in the sporting wilderness for so many years. That one action did more to heal decades of hurt and pain than any other exercise in rapproachment could have achieved.

So if we are to pull Kashmir into our mainstream fold, we have to involve them in cricket. I would go as far as to say that for the next 10 years at least make sure that hook or crook we have at least two Kashmiri muslim players playing in our national senior team.

And then start playing Pakistan once again!

Cheers, Doc

 

[rubyjackass]

Excellent analysis doc

With regards to dilution of Article 370, India can set up some rules like you can buy a living place if you atleast this amount in Kashmir. This amount should run into crores. We can have investment and also development. Security should be entirely state's responsibility obviously.
Also teachers who teach in JK univ for more than x years, they can improve the education situation there. Additional regulations like they should know Kashmiri can be also fixed.

 

[vsdoc]

Thanks Ruby. I have purposely stayed away from the return of the hindu pandits cause we need to ease changes in gradually. We are looking at integration, and not alienation. But their day will come, of that I have no doubt. They are good people. Many of them my friends. And they are living like refugees, with sadness and pain in different parts of their own country.

The Kashmiris have already realised that one way or the other their future is with India. They want to live. They want to grow. They want peace. They want prosperity. Just like any other Indian. Yes, the presence of the Army at every chouraha in Kashmir is stifling. I have experienced that even as a visiting Indian from another state when I ride through the state on the Srinagar highway. Drass, Kargil .... the tension is palpable. Look at those places man ..... look at the standard of life there. But what to do? When you have signboards every 100 meters proclaiming "CAUTION! You are under enemy observation."

The Kashmiris will have to sit down and accept the advent of industry and people from the rest of India in the state. The government can sweeten the deal by promising the removal of one soldier for every out of state civilian who can add value to the state and reside there peacefully. The choice will be clear for the Kashmiris. Progress, prosperity, and integration, with a step-wise removal of the army from populated areas in return for peace and order.

And this will not happen suddenly. No one is pumping in one million non-Kashmiri Indians overnight. Industry will take time to set up. They will need land. They will need skilled and unskilled labour. The Kashmiris will get jobs. The standard of living will rise. Infrastructure like roads and airports and bridges and rail lines and schools and hospitals will be put in place to support this industry. All of this will need help and the involvement from the rest of India too. And those Indians will need homes to stay in. In safety.

Cheers, Doc

 

[foxbat]

Agree.. Remove all special status from J&K. Giving preferential treatment is also a kind of discrimination and we should end that in Kashmir. Make it like any other part of the country. Allow Ambanis and Tatas to go in there to set up industries. Now, post 26/11 lessons they can manage the security better than most state police apparatus. Plus they have the financial muscle to sustain the industry in the initial phases. Nothing like booming economy to counter the insurgency propoganda.

 

[vsdoc]

The most important thing in the process of rapproachment and integration is having people the Kashmiris can talk to, people the Kashmiris would listen to, people the Kashmiris would accept, people who would not threaten the Kashmiris. I honestly feel, secularity and all, today we need prominent Indian muslims to step to the plate and speak to the Kashmiris. Be the link through which both sides can reach out.

Salman Khan, Amir Khan, Shahrukh Khan, President Kalam, MJ Akbar, Javed Akhtar, Azim Premji. There must be so many more. Have guys like Faisal come back and serve his people and interact with them and speak to them. Get Irfan Pathan and Zaheer Khan to speak to them. Get our Indian moulvis and learned muslim scholars to speak to them. Get common muslims to speak to them.

Any help is welcome here. At the end of the day the Kashmiris have been fed a lot of bullshit about India and Indians. Its time we speak out to them and clear the air. Use the media. Use radio. Something like a 24 hour Kashmir FM channel linked to the rest of India .... both ways. Have a blitz from all sides. Get people of all faiths to reach out and tell the Kashmiris that we are here for them. We consider them to be one of us. And we will wait for them to come "home", and make the journey back easy.

Non-threatening involvement that is not seen as too pushy or politically motivated, but at a people to people grass root level is the key. You cannot continue to be hostile towards someone who is so obviously trying to be your friend!

Cheers, Doc

 

[desiman]

Since I am the one whose brain is totally numbed here, and it was I who made the suggestion, let me also kick off the process of constructive Indian solutions for Indian kashmir, by Indians and for Indians.

I am in no way or form insinuating that Pakistanis are not wanted in this discussion (fully tongue in cheek seeing I am an Indian on a Pakistani forum ). I am merely trying to add some substance to a discussion and thread that has become very repetitive and boring, with each successive generation rehashing the same lines, and with some die hard fossils indulging in cross generational rehashing, yours truly included.

I say this with the luxury of distance and absence, coming back after an extended hiatus, and seeing old wine in an old bottle, where simply the drinkers have changed, as a natural progression of coming of legal age I suppose.

So let me start.

I saw this kickass movie last night. As with most good things in life, it happened by chance, as I was bored of Discovery Turbo and was flipping channels and happened on to it.

The movie is called "Sikandar", set in Kashmir, and the usual protagonists - the Army, the People, and the Jihadis, seen from the eyes of the forgotten innocents - the children of Kashmir.

I am a father, I have kids of my own, and while I am not usually a softie, I was really touched. As were my kids who watched the movie along with me, with their mama grumbling about school the next day and how I would be responsible for waking them up. I truly from my heart invite all of you to see this movie. It has Madhavan as the upright army officer with soul. My old classmate from school, who we used to call balaji for some reason.

It set me thinking. Obviously its an Indian movie, so lets not get into the dramatisation and the right and wrong of things. But look at the bigger message. The kids of Kashmir.

They are the Kashmiris we need to concentrate on. They are still young. Impressionable. Innocent. They are the generation not yet hardened by hate or pain or death or clash of loyalties or religious and social indoctrination or polarisation or isolation or hopelessness or fear or terror or poverty or despondency.

Not yet. But allowed to grow up like the generation before them in violence torn Kashmir, they will grow into the same mold of their mothers and fathers. It is inevitable, and India would lose another generation.

We need to find a way of engaging these kids into mainstream India. Class tours. Competitions. Sports. Exchange students. Subsidised boarding schools. Summer camps. Holiday tours. And for this we need it to be done not by the government, seen as "center" or "sarkar" by the Kashmiris in general. Neither should it involve the army as is being practiced as an exercise in rehabilitation of tamil kids in Sri Lanka. But it should be funded by Industry, by corporates, by institutions, with equal participation of common regular Indians, including our mainstream Muslim community and its elders and opinion leaders.

Let the kids of Kashmir into our day to day lives of mainstream India. Let them mix and play and learn and fight with our kids. Let them see the vastness and greatness and diversity of our country. Let them feel the love of all Indians, hindus, sikhs, christians, buddhists, jains, parsis. Let them see that we consider them to be our own. Let them see the wealth and the standard of living in regular Indians towns and villages and cities and homes. Let them see our roads and facilities and malls and factories and dairies and farms and dams and schools and colleges and movie halls. Let them see all this without the ever looming fear of the gun or the bomb.

What a strong line, so touching in its childlike simplicity - "Ab hum mahfooz hain."

Let this generation of Kashmiris grow up with Indians as Indians. Not as Kashmiris in isolation. Let them then go back to their families and homes and mosques and playgrounds and bazaars and question age old prejudices and lines of thought of their elders. Let them be the medium of change. And then let them grow into adults as fully integrated Indians.

That is what we need to do.

Cheers, Doc

lol so missed you doc, good to have you back

 

[vsdoc]

lol so missed you doc, good to have you back

Thanks bro! I am really "feeling the love" today.

Cheers, Doc

 

[AbuSalam]

Thanks bro! I am really "feeling the love" today.

Cheers, Doc

Welcome back DoctorJee

 

[Raghu]

The most important thing in the process of rapproachment and integration is having people the Kashmiris can talk to, people the Kashmiris would listen to, people the Kashmiris would accept, people who would not threaten the Kashmiris. I honestly feel, secularity and all, today we need prominent Indian muslims to step to the plate and speak to the Kashmiris. Be the link through which both sides can reach out.

Salman Khan, Amir Khan, Shahrukh Khan, President Kalam, MJ Akbar, Javed Akhtar, Azim Premji. There must be so many more. Have guys like Faisal come back and serve his people and interact with them and speak to them. Any help is welcome here. At the end of the day the Kashmiris have been fed a lot of bullshit about India and Indians. Its time we speak out to them and clear the air. Use the media. Use radio. Something like a 24 hour Kashmir FM channel linked to the rest of India .... both ways.

Non-threatening involvement that is not seen as too pushy or politically motivated, but at a people to people grass root level is the key. You cannot continue to be hostile towards someone who is so obviously trying to be your friend!

Cheers, Doc

Kya doc, sending mix signals...

IMO , we should stop treating Kashmiris as what in call in Odiya "Galellha pua" any longer and better take off the kid gloves.

whie People of in parts of North East have may have a sense of alienation for India, where as Muslims of Kashmir think Kashmir problem is unfinished business of partition ,a division whose genesis lies in the so called two nation theory.

So Kashmiri separatism has everything to do with religion rather than less communal ideas like ethnicity or language .There is hardly any ethnic difference between Kashmiri Muslims with no sense belonging for for the Indian state always asking special this or that and Kashmir pundits ,a group who worked tirelessly putting the foundation of the country .

So No amount of conciliatory gonna effort can the change the mindset that India ,a Hindu nation has occupied their land(Kashmir valley) where Muslims are in 90% majority especially under the current status quo prevailing there even the pro India party national conference demands more rights and less interference of India. .

I don't know why Patel and Nehru kept that part of Kashmir valley under Indian control. It may be only due to water resources or Kashmir being ancestral home of Nehru or . Anyway since we have it now,we cant go just set Kashmir free ,the virus may spread to other parts of India.

So the way out is,doing opposite what we have done in last sixty years.For having special status and little integration with the Indian state for so many years have made Kashmiris carry baggage of being out of mainstream India and consider themselves different from rest of the Indians.

So remove article 370 and Stop giving special status to whole the J & K.Take out Jammu and laddak from the J & K state , make it part main stream India.I know people of Jammu and Laddak would support us whole heartedly in it.

Stop giving so much Central assistance to the state,its going anyway in to the pockets of Abdullahs instead of common Kashmiri .Had these funds been used among the tribals of central India ,we wouldn't have the Maoist problem we are facing today.


Threaten the valley politicians with dire consequence like handing the valley to Pakistan where they can continue their independence struggle.

Change the demography of Kashmir and make it less Muslim and more Indian.

Do whatever needed ,but we must break the box kept that Kashmir as a separate special entity called "J & K" and if gonna we keep it untouched ,someday day the box will fall off the Indian deck and all our investment made with money,lives of our men would go in vain.

PS:welcome back doc .