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The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

i am still waiting if you can pick up the concerns raised by the writer and can negate them with proof and logic, or else you can shut up and let others give it a try.

And why would anyone be interested in banging his head against the wall trying to ponder over issues that have well crossed their timeline to ponder upon? It is sufficient to know that there was an agreement done to accede J&K to India - time, duress are all speculative.

It is best if you leave the obsession with Kashmir because the land will undoubtedly remain with India. If some Kashmiris so desire to become part of an Islamic state (that being the so-called issue), there are so many around the world and they are free to migrate. Or they can stay here and enjoy every freedom entitled under a secular, democratic constitution, and as they are. Is this not simple enough to understand? Oh, but I have no civil answer for hidden intentions of dividing people on the basis of religion and thereby annexing more land.
 
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i am still waiting an explanation to the following:

the alleged Instrument of Accession, was not published until many years later, if at all. It was not communicated to Pakistan at the outset of the overt Indian intervention in the State of Jammu and Kashmir, nor was it presented in facsimile to the United Nations in early 1948 as part of the initial Indian reference to the Security Council. The 1948 White Paper in which the Government of India set out its formal case in respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir, does not contain the Instrument of Accession as claimed to have been signed by the Maharajah: instead, it reproduces an unsigned from of Accession such as, it is imposed, the Maharajah might have signed.
To date no satisfactory original of this Instrument as signed by the Maharajah ever did sign an Instrument of Accession. There are, indeed, grounds for suspecting that he did no such thing. The Instrument of Accession referred to in document (c); a letter which as we have seen was probably drafted by Indian officials prior to being shown to the Maharajah, may never have existed, and can hardly have existed when the letter was being prepared


May be the indian thought that things would also get done orally outside india :lol:

We want to go down this path of If My Aunt had a mush she would be my uncle? Really? :azn:

Read the paragraph laced with "Grounds for suspicion, probably drafted by indian officials, may never have existed". Looks like a text book for "How do write conspiracy theories"..

Tell your friend Mr Lamb to either put forward a proof of fraud or to take a chill pill.. The burden of proof is on the accuser and not accused. Reasonable doubt is a valid defence and not a successful prosecution strategy..

So anyone backing this theory should either put up or shut up..
 
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We want to go down this path of If My Aunt had a mush she would be my uncle? Really? :azn:

Read the paragraph laced with "Grounds for suspicion, probably drafted by indian officials, may never have existed". Looks like a text book for "How do write conspiracy theories"..

Tell your friend Mr Lamb to either put forward a proof of fraud or to take a chill pill.. The burden of proof is on the accuser and not accused. Reasonable doubt is a valid defence and not a successful prosecution strategy..

So anyone backing this theory should either put up or shut up..
You people find the easiest route out, dont you? :rolleyes:

The question remains; why wasnt the holy document presented at the occasions mentioned in 'not my friend' Mr Lambs book!

So, please put up or shut up!!
 
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You people find the easiest route out, dont you? :rolleyes:

The question remains; why wasnt the holy document presented at the occasions mentioned in 'not my friend' Mr Lambs book!

So, please put up or shut up!!

Keeping it simple and to the point is easy to do and easy to understand. So yeah.. easiest route is mostly good..


It wasnt.. So what?? What does it prove (except to conspiracy theorists or writers wanting to sell books in Pakistan)?? diddly squat. Either prove that its a fake or forget it..As I said, the burden of proof is with the accuser...
 
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Either prove that its a fake

Guess what, he already did :lol:
 
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You have failed to address the points raised by Mr Lamb. Instead you have restored to rhetoric and nit picking. i have learned that you master in red herring and that's only what you can do best.
I have addressed exactly the issue that Lamb has bleated about. All those 'points' were built only to conclude a) the Instrument of Accession doesn't exist and b) even if it exists, it is still 'illegal' since it was made under 'duress'. I have addressed both these issues.

Your inability to grasp the core issue is your problem and yours only.
i am still waiting if you can pick up the concerns raised by the writer and can negate them with proof and logic, or else you can shut up and let others give it a try.
Existence of signed Instrument of Accession is the proof against a) above. The logic why that signature can't be construed as 'under duress' has been explained in my earlier post.

N.B. Do you suffer from anal retention, BTW?
Why, do you? You seem to know the symptoms.:lol: But don't worry. I am fine. Thanks for asking though. And my sympathies to you.

P.S. i was more concerned about the baleful and noxious behavior of your 'hero', even if one consider him as such :coffee:
I will take it as a compliment. If your enemy is pissed, then you have done it right. Right?:cheers:
 
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i remember the famous slogan when we were childs

"Kashmir bane ga Pakistan"

and this song


or in a new version

 
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I just pray to God with all my heart , that the Kashmir Dispute gets settled so that Pakistan and India can live in peaceful and collaborative Environment ..Ameen ...!!!
 
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Address the concerns raised by the writer or else keep the gutter tight, would you?
 
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Address the concerns raised by the writer or else keep the gutter tight, would you?

I think I did write about those concerns from which you selected a one liner and responded "Guess what, he already did"..:frown:
Since you chose not to respond to my comments on the topic, I dont think I need to add anything.

My last remark was a response to your implication that I was ranting. If I misread your implication, then my bad and I apologise..

Finally your latest comment about the gutter.. well, abusing generally doesn't get you anywhere.. does it??
 
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It's been nearly 24 hours, and still the intent to derail the thread from its true objectives is going strong. Certain Indian members simply can't stand talk of peace and freedom in Kashmir, and we all know that denying that a problem exists is the easiest way to avoid a solution.

However, I am far more interested in discussing with those interested in a possible solution and not engaging in personal attacks and mischief. Here is what I proposed (since my original post got buried in all the crap, I'll repost the images):
21b851633adb3df5db1d3bfa4edd7202.jpg

0787164903488fb61137feeba7e988e9.jpg

Like I've said, it seems to be the best possible solution for all three parties. The term "trust deficit" is overused these days, but it definitely stands true between Pakistan and India. To get past this, we must really get serious about the discussion and engage in trust building measures. Pakistan's offer for Composite Talks has always been on the table, but the Indians have shown a reluctance to accept it (understandably, as Bombay was a tragedy that would stir any country up). However, unless and until the Kashmir issue is resolved (to the satisfaction of the people of Kashmir, first and foremost, as well as the people of Pakistan and India) who knows how many more Bombays and Kargils could happen?

Both countries are trying to play games with each other, be it "bleeding by a thousand cuts" or "mouse traps", but it's all wishful thinking. We know they won't work, but will serve only to widen the divide and delay the eventuality. Nobody has ever been able keep a people prisoner in their own occupied land forever, and it's not going to happen this time, so it's best to get the issue resolved ASAP and move on. South Asia is the next Europe in terms of economic growth, but we must try out best to avoid a Great War.
 
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Kashmir Resolution Proposal #8

First of all, appreciate the effort, I must have missed this post. However, there are some fundamental perceptions that have to be clarified.

The biggest stumbling block in understanding the Valley situation is that most Pakistanis believe that the indigenous separatists (note not all valley Kashmiris only the separatists) want to join Pakistan. What they really want is to have an independent state which would comprise of the Pakistani Northern Areas and Kashmir as well as the India state of J&K. Infact many groups in Pakistan are also working for this but severe political and media restrictions in GB and Pakistani Kashmir don't allow the general Pakistani population to know about it.

An even smaller subset of the separatists include people like Syed Ali Shah Gilani, these are your pro-Pakistan elements and they are similar to your Qazi Hussain and Maulana Fazlullah types. Hardly someone any sane Pakistani would want to rule over them. Similarly they only have marginal support in their hometown of Sopore and Shopian. Hardly the types Pakistan should be supporting if they really cared for the Kashmiris.

The other major issue is that we have to have a peaceful atmosphere before we can reach a settlement. It doesn't have to be 100% but at least similar to 2007-2008 where militant attacks were at an all time low and a settlement with Musharraf was almost done.
Please note that these groups have killed more Kashmiri muslims than any other ethnic group. They target any person or politican who is pro-India or even sepratists or former militatns who want to talk to India. Media groups that critisize their role are targeting as well.

And what guarantee is there that LeT, Hizb, HUJI type groups will not continue their attacks further into Indian territory as they announced recently in a JuD meet with some retired intelligence and army personnel in attendance. As we have seen with the case of TTP, we won't know when these groups will turn back on their benefactors for any perceived "munafiqat". These terrorists groups will only be responsible for more suffering of the Kashmiri people just like the Afghan Taliban have been for the Afghans. However, atleast in the Afghan case they were indigenous, but here they are mainly foreign nationals.

So here are two important on the ground situation to be considered first
(1) Anti-India does not mean pro-Pakistan. Sepratists are not all valley Kashmiris and that majority of the separatists want a secular independent J&K state representing the entire historical J&K state.

(2) Militant/proxy groups targeting Kashmir are part of the problem. Even from the separatist pov, they have caused enormous harm to their cause and have alienated them from the local population. All attempts must be undertaken by the GoP to restrict and dismantle these groups BEFORE any settlement could be reached. This is vital to provide a free atmosphere to pro-India politicians and people to articulate their vision and media groups to freely criticize them.

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I have earlier posted a study conducted by an Irish group specializing in conflict studies with a focus on what the people want. Please go through the whole report to get an idea of what the priorities are for the people in J&K. As you will see, even in the valley the percentage unacceptable for joining Pakistan is slightly higher than joining India.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...r-seven-possible-solutions-29.html#post399662

A screenshot of the relevant poll is here

http://f.imagehost.org/view/0091/JandKopinionpoll2009

The entire study for both IaK and Pak can be found on www.peacepolls.org
 
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So here are two important on the ground situation to be considered first
(1) Anti-India does not mean pro-Pakistan. Sepratists are not all valley Kashmiris and that majority of the separatists want a secular independent J&K state representing the entire historical J&K state.

Firstly, EjazR, thank you for being civil. You are certainly a trend-breaker, and I hope you are also a trend-setter.

Now, your points are understood. I have seen that study conducted by Peacepolls, and yes, it is indeed true that most Kashmiris in the Valley support the idea of an independent Kashmir. However, the vast majority of the people in Azad Kashmir and Gilgit-Baltistan strongly support remaining with Pakistan (as backed by the poll), whereas a majority of the people in Ladakh and Jammu have shown the desire to remain with India. Therefore, the Valley remains the only place which is not happy with the status quo (i.e., under Indian control). Now, the poll shows that the number who oppose merger with Pakistan and/or India is similar, however, it does not show how many of those who do not support merger with Pakistan claim India is unacceptable and vice versa. If this statistic were to be estimated using what we already know about the Valley, then the common view found in the Valley is "anything but India", and the events of this year and the year before are testament to that. Given the choice between Pakisan and India and no independence, most experts have little doubt that the people of the Valley would choose Pakistan. A study that further backs this claim is one conducted by an Indian journalism network in the early nineties whcih listed only merger with Pakistan or India as possible solutions. It was found that the overwhelming majority (do not remember the number) supported merger with Pakistan (the poll was alluded to in the documentary Jashn-e-Azadi). This view has also been expressed by the likes of Yasin Malik, who has made it clear that, betwen the two, he would choose Pakistan. You don't have to take my word for it (as you probably won't), but I implore you to try and understand why a referendum or an official opinion poll has never been conducted in the Valley by the Indian government. There is a reason why the Valley is boiling with anti-Indian sentiments to this day.

(2) Militant/proxy groups targeting Kashmir are part of the problem. Even from the separatist pov, they have caused enormous harm to their cause and have alienated them from the local population. All attempts must be undertaken by the GoP to restrict and dismantle these groups BEFORE any settlement could be reached. This is vital to provide a free atmosphere to pro-India politicians and people to articulate their vision and media groups to freely criticize them.
Sir, the militant networks are not majority Pakistanis as is being claimed, because such an idea is absurd to say the least. Separatist militant networks originated in Kashmir, and received traning, logistical support and reinforcements from Pakistan. Nobody is denying that Pakistanis are involved in the Valley, but their involvement is exaggerated to spread the false claim that we started this problem. Furthermore, Kashmiri youth has been becoming increasingly militant-minded, according to Eric Margolis, a Canadian expert on this issue. The reason for this is that the youth see little or no other options; they see that in the first 40 years of peaceful and political struggle got them nowhere, whereas the 20 years of militancy forced the Indian government to take notice. Hence, militancy cannot be stopped by Pakistan alone, as it would clearly be seen as withdrawal of support by the people of Kashmir. Militant networks, however, can be controlled or made passive for certain periods of time (as Yasin Malik's JKLF) to allow pro-India politicians and groups to express their opinions freely. For that to happen India will first have to show the resolve to find a solution. All we have been seeing so far is half-hearted participation in meetings where the Kashmir issue is put last on the to-do list.

Thus, the following points will make my solution possible:
(I) If independence is not an option, the Valley would choose Pakistan, plain and simple. Since self-determination is not something that India is keen on, and since indepence will not be supported in India, Pakistan, Jammu, Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir, merger with Pakistan remains the only way forward that would be acceptable to the Valley.
(II) The militancy began a long time after the occupation began, therefore, it will end once the occupation winds down. You cannot expect Pakistanis and Kashmiris to have blind faith in India's intentions to resolve the issue, mainly because India has given neither of us any reason to do so. Work towards a solution, reach a compromise, and I guarantee, militancy will decline (as it will no longer be seen as a requirement by Pakistanis or Kashmiris).
(III) India has not been serious about discussions at all, and is quite happy with the status quo at the expense of the people of the Valley. This can only change if the people of India stop the charade and actually awaken their collective conscience. What makes it okay for Kashmiris to sleep in fear while Bombay-ers sleep peacefully? That is the question they have to ask themselves. Only then can India get serious. Once you are determined to solve the issue, you should have no problem realizing that losing a small piece of territory will save us both years of frustration and bloodshed.
(IV) The presence of a mountain of Indian armed personnel and the constant human rights abuse are unacceptable to the people of Kashmir, and these factors also greatly hinder peace-building and trust-building. However, since India would be reluctant to decrease the troop-presence by too much before any resolution is reached, and both Pakistanis and Kashmiris would be reluctant to pull back all militant efforts as long as there is a strong Indian military presence, the solution must be reached before either side can de-escalate its military presence in the region.
 
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It's been nearly 24 hours, and still the intent to derail the thread from its true objectives is going strong. Certain Indian members simply can't stand talk of peace and freedom in Kashmir, and we all know that denying that a problem exists is the easiest way to avoid a solution.

However, I am far more interested in discussing with those interested in a possible solution and not engaging in personal attacks and mischief. Here is what I proposed (since my original post got buried in all the crap, I'll repost the images):
21b851633adb3df5db1d3bfa4edd7202.jpg

0787164903488fb61137feeba7e988e9.jpg

Like I've said, it seems to be the best possible solution for all three parties. The term "trust deficit" is overused these days, but it definitely stands true between Pakistan and India. To get past this, we must really get serious about the discussion and engage in trust building measures. Pakistan's offer for Composite Talks has always been on the table, but the Indians have shown a reluctance to accept it (understandably, as Bombay was a tragedy that would stir any country up). However, unless and until the Kashmir issue is resolved (to the satisfaction of the people of Kashmir, first and foremost, as well as the people of Pakistan and India) who knows how many more Bombays and Kargils could happen?

Both countries are trying to play games with each other, be it "bleeding by a thousand cuts" or "mouse traps", but it's all wishful thinking. We know they won't work, but will serve only to widen the divide and delay the eventuality. Nobody has ever been able keep a people prisoner in their own occupied land forever, and it's not going to happen this time, so it's best to get the issue resolved ASAP and move on. South Asia is the next Europe in terms of economic growth, but we must try out best to avoid a Great War.

I did respond to your earlier note on the solution #8, but I guess that got lost in the barrage you mentioned.. Repeating it here..

I respect the sentiment. The problem doesnt change. See the difficulty is not in drawing a line on the map. Its the stance and stakes for the 2 parties involved i.e. Pakistan and India. Yes, I am not forgetting Kashmiris, but believe it or not they are just pawns in this great game between India and Pakistan. 99% of them wont care either way as long as life is peaceful.. But coming back to my original points.. India will never climb down from its stand of not loosing territory and Pakistan will stick to its stand of rights of Kashmiris which is basically a guise for annexing territory. I personally believe that we are destined to live with this for all foreseeable future. The intensity will go up or down depending on the political and economical ground realities in Pakistan (as we can see for last couple of year).

From an Indian point of view, the best thing would be to remove article 370 from Kashmir and let the natural flow of industrialization and growth take care of the situation. Tata's and Ambanis will take care of their facilities them selves and Kashmir will get the commercial growth it deserves.

I somehow like All-Green's solution better. It's less disruptive and more likely to find acceptance on the India side of the border. Even though it will have a series of tactical difficulties but they can be addressed if the will to solve the issue exists on both side.

At the end of the day, as we have seen in past, any solution that results in territory loss will not be acceptable to the folks in Delhi..
 
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