The Future of Kashmir? "Seven" Possible Solutions!

[All-Green]

K.P.S. Gill is the one you should be reading or hearing. Not Gen. Kuldip Singh. The former was the one responsible for fighting the Punjab insurgency throughout the 80s and successfully quelling it.

No one however denies the fact that it was a rebellion of the Sikhs. Its just that, Pakistan tried to pull a Bangladesh on us but failed miserably. That is also a fact.

Well if it was an established fact then all would have reiterated the same, not to mention solid proof would have been given and diplomatic assault on Pakistan would have been launched.
The leaders of the Khalistan movement visited many countries of the world including Pakistan so that is not something exclusive to Pakistan.
Pakistan also houses many Sikh holy places and has entertained our Sikh brothers many times so it is not that we have no ties with the Sikhs of subcontinent after partition and have zero affiliation with the Sikhs.

However leaving everything aside, Pakistan did not pull a Bangladesh on India because Pakistan Army did not support the Khalistan movement by entering Indian Punjab which India did in Bangladesh.
Now that is a fact and no one can deny that.

Your comment about Pakistan failing miserably in doing what India did to Pakistan is unsubstantiated.
Had our Army crossed the border, only then can you comment on their failure...they did not do it.

You can take this on PM now, let us not derail the thread.

 

[Trichy]

This MAP how it look like Land for land what you say best idea???

 

[toxic_pus]

Now, the poll shows that the number who oppose merger with Pakistan and/or India is similar, however, it does not show how many of those who do not support merger with Pakistan claim India is unacceptable and vice versa. If this statistic were to be estimated using what we already know about the Valley, then the common view found in the Valley is "anything but India"...

The image posted by EjazR isn't enough. Let me post a couple of stats, from the same survey:

All Muslims in Kashmir (Valley, Jammu and Ladakh):

Muslims in Kashmir Valley:

All Muslims:

47% and 49% find 'status quo' and 'joining India', respectively, unacceptable. Surprisingly, a whopping 71% also find 'joining Pakistan' unacceptable. Understandably, 84% find independence essential/ desirable/ acceptable/ tolerable (EDAT) of which 63% find independence as essential and desirable (ED).

All Muslims in Valley:

58% and 63% find 'status quo' and 'joining India', respectively, unacceptable. However, 69% find 'joining Pakistan' unacceptable, as well. A whopping 93% find independence as EDAT, of which 78% find independence as ED.

Although it is impossible to draw a linear correlation between the options, a reasonable conclusion can still be drawn from all of this. It appears that, in the valley, for the increase in unacceptability of ‘status quo’ (11% points) and ‘Joining India’ (14% points) there is no significant corresponding reduction in unacceptability of ‘joining Pakistan’ (there is reduction of measly 2% points). In other words, the desire to ‘join Pakistan’ isn’t a default conclusion to the unacceptability of ‘status quo’ and not ‘joining India’. There is however, increase in the desire for ‘independence’ (9% points) and a desire for ‘open boundary’ (5% points). It appears that, the Muslims in the Valley, would rather be independent than join either of the state. Contrary to ‘anything but India’ they seem to prefer ‘anything but India OR Pakistan’.

Given the choice between Pakisan and India and no independence, most experts have little doubt that the people of the Valley would choose Pakistan.

[...]

Thus, the following points will make my solution possible:
(I) If independence is not an option, the Valley would choose Pakistan, plain and simple.

The above statistics just proved you and those experts wrong. Majority wouldn't have anything other than independence.

We can now stop this mental masturbation of unilaterally pushing the LoC further to the east, and claim that it is what is ‘desired’ by the Muslims of the Valley. Clearly it is not.

 

[Xeric]

Hmmm....

Why dont hold the plebiscite right now??

 

[Xeric]

Well, the way the pollers have jotted down the introduction to this poll shows clearly the intentions behind the poll.

Conducting polls with preconceived notion would easily mean that the polls are neutral.

Here, have a look (some details given by those who conducted the polls-how truthful of them ):

Introduction
In the summer of 2008 Kashmir witnessed the worst outbreak of communal riots and killings in over a decade and it seemed as if Kashmir might once again become the crucible of regional violence. But Benazir Bhutto had been brutally assassinated only 6 months earlier in Rawalpindi in December 2007 and in November 2008, six months after the Kashmir riots international terrorists with Pakistan connections were held responsible for the Mumbai massacre. (the probably forgot the 220 indian districts packed up with naxalites) Following the attempt to abduct the Sri Lanka cricket team in Lahore and increased activity of militants throughout the country commentators were suggesting Pakistan might soon become the next failed
state (lovely!).

The Pakistan army have now entered the Swat valley in force to
confront the Taliban but force alone will not solve all these problems.
In this context (what if the context has changed after our success in WOT?) a subset of the questions asked in Indian administered Kashmir (IaK) last year were repeated in Pakistan administered Kashmir (PaK) this year in the hope of discovering any possibilities at all for a diplomatic intervention that just might help to contribute to a resolution of this crisis and that might also enjoy wide popular support.

The Constitutional Question
When various constitutional options were presented to the people of IaK last year the results were very clear. The overwhelming preference of the Muslims, particularly for those in the Valley, was an independent Kashmir (63% ‘essential’, 15% ‘desirable’, 10% ‘acceptable’, 4% ‘tolerable’ and 7% ‘unacceptable’). But the Hindus of Jammu (what about the Muslims of Jammu) and the Buddhists (who are 47.4% of the Ladakhi population) of Ladakh
wanted to stay with India (it's like saying 7 out of 10 Muslims wants to join Pakistan and 3 out of 3 indians desirous to stay with india-how gets the popular vote now?) and rejected the independence option at 59% and 74% ‘unacceptable’ respectively (Table 1). Critically, however, the Muslims of IaK, at 71% ‘unacceptable’ over all, along with the Hindus at 78% and Buddhists at 84% ‘unacceptable’ also firmly rejected joining with Pakistan.
Clearly if the Muslim population of PaK followed this same pattern with a call for independence and a rejection of the state of Pakistan then a new fault line might emerge (what a wish-list ) in the region between the Muslims of PaK and the Valley on the one hand and the Hindus and Buddhists on the other. This, however, has not happened.

 

[karan.1970]

Hmmm....

Why dont hold the plebiscite right now??

Can't.. Constitutionally not possible and communicated to UN way back in 1960s. Get over it..

 

[Xeric]

Can't.. Constitutionally not possible and communicated to UN way back in 1960s. Get over it..

So you say it and it just happens, right?

Hmm....so the Jungle raj syndrome still prevails within the indian establishment and the its citizens. Gosh, why is the world fighting terrorism only?!

So now you eat your words again. You did that recently when the US kicked the little RAW inside you from Afghanistan. and you come running asking Pakistan to start over the talks.

Well this is what you people have been saying, what happened to the constitution now? Just because you are in the habit of running in circles and rhetoric it wont mean that you can just screw around:

INDIA'S COMMITMENT OF PLEBISCITE FOR THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR

“Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom).

“In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“ …….the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide.

“And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Broadcast to the Nation: “All India Radio”: 2 November 1947).

* “The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947).

“We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole…….”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B).

“The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953).

“People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951).

“Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955).

“We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951).

“We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952).

“If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).

“I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where.

“I started with the presumption that it is for the people of Kashmir to decide their own future. We will not compel them. In that sense, the people of Kashmir are sovereign.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in Indian Parliament, 7 August 1952)

“The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(The Statesman, 1 May 1953)

“Leave the decision regarding the future of this State to the people of the State is not merely a promise to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No. 25 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“In regard to accession also it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite………..”

“Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).

“But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Council of States; 18 May 1954).



Faulty constitution or betraying your own leaders?!

 

[Skeptic]

So you say it and it just happens, right?

Hmm....so the Jungle raj syndrome still prevails within the indian establishment and the its citizens. Gosh, why is the world fighting terrorism only?!

So now you eat your words again. You did that recently when the US kicked the little RAW inside you from Afghanistan. and you come running asking Pakistan to start over the talks.

Well this is what you people have been saying, what happened to the constitution now? Just because you are in the habit of running in circles and rhetoric it wont mean that you can just screw around:

INDIA'S COMMITMENT OF PLEBISCITE FOR THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR

“Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom).

“In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“ …….the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide.

“And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Broadcast to the Nation: “All India Radio”: 2 November 1947).

* “The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947).

“We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole…….”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B).

“The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953).

“People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951).

“Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955).

“We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951).

“We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952).

“If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).

“I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where.

“I started with the presumption that it is for the people of Kashmir to decide their own future. We will not compel them. In that sense, the people of Kashmir are sovereign.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in Indian Parliament, 7 August 1952)

“The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(The Statesman, 1 May 1953)

“Leave the decision regarding the future of this State to the people of the State is not merely a promise to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No. 25 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“In regard to accession also it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite………..”

“Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).

“But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Council of States; 18 May 1954).



Faulty constitution or betraying your own leaders?!

Change is Policies with changing circumstances. As with several other policies of the time - India's stand over Kashmir has also evolved. The situation has changes irreversibly. At that time, you were not willing to withdraw troops and tribesmen, now we are not willing to conduct the polls as the situation has changed irreversibly.

All these statements just show that we were serious about conducting referendum back in late 40s till 50's. Nothing more nothing less.

Next you will hold us for betraying our leaders for not sticking to the same economic policies as proposed by Jawahar Lal Nehru....

Get a life this is 2010 for fcuks sake.

 

[Xeric]

Next you will hold us for betraying our leaders for not sticking to the same economic policies as proposed by Jawahar Lal Nehru....

So now you would weigh your economic polices and backing out of an agreed UN proposal equally. Voila!

Get a life this is 2010 for fcuks sake.

i would suggest you better refrain from BS, i know you people are hard pressed, but this isnt the place for spilling your guts. Next you would do what? Cyber-punch me?

 

[karan.1970]

So you say it and it just happens, right?

Hmm....so the Jungle raj syndrome still prevails within the indian establishment and the its citizens. Gosh, why is the world fighting terrorism only?!

So now you eat your words again. You did that recently when the US kicked the little RAW inside you from Afghanistan. and you come running asking Pakistan to start over the talks.

Well this is what you people have been saying, what happened to the constitution now? Just because you are in the habit of running in circles and rhetoric it wont mean that you can just screw around:

INDIA'S COMMITMENT OF PLEBISCITE FOR THE PEOPLE OF KASHMIR

“Our view which we have repeatedly made public is that the question of accession in any disputed territory or State must be decided in accordance with wishes of people and we adhere to this view.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No. 402-Primin-2227 dated 27 October 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan repeating telegram addressed to Prime Minister of United Kingdom).

“In regard to accession also, it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“ …….the people of Kashmir would decide the question of accession. It is open to them to accede to either Dominion then.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram No.255 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“Kashmir should decide question of accession by plebiscite or referendum under international auspices such as those of the United Nations.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Letter No. 368-Primin dated 21 November 1947 to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“We are anxious not to finalize anything in a moment of crisis and without the fullest opportunity to be given to the people of Kashmir to have their say. It is for them ultimately to decide.

“And let me make it clear that it has been our policy all along that where there is a dispute about the accession of a state to either Dominion, the accession must be made by the people of that state.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Broadcast to the Nation: “All India Radio”: 2 November 1947).

* “The issue in Kashmir is whether violence and naked force should decide the future or the will of the people.” JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in Indian Constituent Assembly; 25 November 1947).

“We have not opposed at any time an over-all plebiscite for the State as a whole…….”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(in telegram dated 16 August 1950 addressed to the U.N. Representative for India and Pakistan: S/1791 : Anne 1(B).

“The most feasible method of ascertaining the wishes of the people was by fair and impartial plebiscite.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Joint press communique of the Prime Ministers of India and Pakistan issued in Delhi after their meeting on 20 August 1953).

“People seem to forget that Kashmir is not a commodity for sale or to be bartered. It has an individual existence and its people must be the final arbiters of their future.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Report to the All-India Congress Committee, 6 July 1951; The Statesman, New Delhi, 9 July 1951).

“Kashmir is not a thing to be bandied about between India and Pakistan but it has a soul of its own and an individuality of its own. Nothing can be done without the goodwill and consent of the people of Kashmir.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 31 March 1955).

“We had given our pledge to the people of Kashmir, and subsequently to the United Nations; we stood by it and we stand by it today. Let the people of Kashmir decide.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 12 February 1951).

“We have taken the issue to the United Nations and given our word of honour for a peaceful solution. As a great nation, we cannot go back on it. We have left the question for final solution to the people of Kashmir and we are determined to abide by their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Amrita Bazar Patrika, Calcutta, 2 January 1952).

“If, after a proper plebiscite, the people of Kashmir said, ‘We do not want to be with India’, we are committed to accept that. We will accept it though it might pain us. We will not send any army against them. We will accept that, however hurt we might feel about it, we will change the Constitution, if necessary.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Parliament, 26 June 1952).

“I want to stress that it is only the people of Kashmir who can decide the future of Kashmir. It is not that we have merely said that to the United Nations and to the people of Kashmir; it is our conviction and one that is borne out by the policy that we have pursued, not only in Kashmir but every where.

“I started with the presumption that it is for the people of Kashmir to decide their own future. We will not compel them. In that sense, the people of Kashmir are sovereign.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(Statement in Indian Parliament, 7 August 1952)

“The whole dispute about Kashmir is still before the United Nations. We cannot just decide things concerning Kashmir. We cannot pass a bill or issue an order concerning Kashmir or do whatever we want.

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(The Statesman, 1 May 1953)

“Leave the decision regarding the future of this State to the people of the State is not merely a promise to your Government but also to the people of Kashmir and to the world.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No. 25 dated 31 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“In regard to accession also it has been made clear that this is subject to reference to people of State and their decision.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(In telegram No.413 dated 28 October 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“That Government of India and Pakistan should make a joint request to U.N.O. to undertake a plebiscite in Kashmir at the earliest possible date.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU
(In telegram No. Primin-304 dated 8 November 1947 addressed to Prime Minister of Pakistan).

“We have always right from the beginning accepted the idea of the Kashmir people deciding their fate by referendum or plebiscite………..”

“Ultimately, the final decision of settlement, which must come, has first of all to be made basically by the people of Kashmir…….”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement at Press Conference in London, 16 January 1951, The Statesman, 18 January 1951).

“But so far as the Government of India are concerned, every assurance and international commitment in regard to Kashmir stands.”

* JAWAHARLAL NEHRU

(Statement in the Indian Council of States; 18 May 1954).



Faulty constitution or betraying your own leaders?!

Actually niether. Simply a matter of selective documentary /cherry picking/incomplete knowledge on your part. Also once article 370 got implemented in early 1950s, the constitutional stand of India on the state of J&K became what you see today...

Also from your language you seem to be getting a little too flustererd. As I said, get over it.. Its a discussion and not a negotiation. You and I can not decide the future course of events on this forum.. so avoid the contemptuous content of your post or else

Talk to the Hand...

Anyway, back to the topic,

You stopped short of the complete timeline of statements on Jammu & Kashmir from GoI. But hey, I am not surprised since you copied it from the site of National assembly of Pakistan.. ...Here's the rest of it...


"India had accepted these resolutions, subject to assurances, (mentioned in para 6) and in the hope of having the matter resolved quickly. Pakistan, however, wrecked the implementation of the resolutions at that time by not fulfilling the preconditions. If an offer is made and it is not accepted at the time it is made, it cannot be held for generations over the heads of those who made it".


V.K. Menon UN Security Council (763 Meeting, 23 January, 1957):
With Pakistan's intransigence, and passage of time, the offer lapsed and was overtaken by events


"I wish to make it clear on behalf of my Government that under no circumstances can we agree to the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir"

representative of India (M.C. Chagla) UN Security Council (1088 meeting, 5 February 1964):


"Any plebiscite today would by definition amount to questioning the integrity of India. It would raise the issue of secession - an issue on which even the United States fought a civil war not so very long ago. We cannot and will not tolerate a second partition of India on religious grounds"

Lal Bahadur Shastri New York, stated on March 31, 1966

 

[EjazR]

@toxic_pus

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...r-seven-possible-solutions-46.html#post663942

Just to add to your post, I would suggest to focus on the option of granting more autonomy and restoring the A. 370 in its entirety. As you can see that has the least resistance of unacceptable for most people in J&K including non-muslims. It also has lesser resistance among valley muslims compared to other options.

 

[Xeric]

Actually niether. Simply a matter of selective documentary /cherry picking/incomplete knowledge on your part. Also once article 370 got implemented in early 1950s, the constitutional stand of India on the state of J&K became what you see today...

Also from your language you seem to be getting a little too flustererd. As I said, get over it.. Its a discussion and not a negotiation. You and I can not decide the future course of events on this forum.. so avoid the contemptuous content of your post or else

Talk to the Hand...

Anyway, back to the topic,

You stopped short of the complete timeline of statements on Jammu & Kashmir from GoI. But hey, I am not surprised since you copied it from the site of National assembly of Pakistan.. ...Here's the rest of it...


"India had accepted these resolutions, subject to assurances, (mentioned in para 6) and in the hope of having the matter resolved quickly. Pakistan, however, wrecked the implementation of the resolutions at that time by not fulfilling the preconditions. If an offer is made and it is not accepted at the time it is made, it cannot be held for generations over the heads of those who made it".


V.K. Menon UN Security Council (763 Meeting, 23 January, 1957):
With Pakistan's intransigence, and passage of time, the offer lapsed and was overtaken by events


"I wish to make it clear on behalf of my Government that under no circumstances can we agree to the holding of a plebiscite in Kashmir"

representative of India (M.C. Chagla) UN Security Council (1088 meeting, 5 February 1964):


"Any plebiscite today would by definition amount to questioning the integrity of India. It would raise the issue of secession - an issue on which even the United States fought a civil war not so very long ago. We cannot and will not tolerate a second partition of India on religious grounds"

Lal Bahadur Shastri New York, stated on March 31, 1966

Another excllent piece of rant.

i know what the heck happened and when, we all know that the indians have eaten their own words (as they have done now and would always do) and have retracted from the UN resolution. The idea that the State of J&K should be an integral part of india was included in the J&K State Constitution that was adopted by the assembly on 20 Oct 1956 and came into effect from 29 Jan 1957, but that's not the point in case.

You seem to suffer from xenophobia and tends to derail every thread you drop in. We want to discuss the illegal indian stance of (at your will-we dont even know who that J&K State Government was that approved to convene a constituent assembly) considering J&K its 'integral' part as if it was a Jungle raj (that you people seem to enjoy so much in main land india).

So instead of ranting and yapping and BSing add something to discuss.

We all know what you are upto here. You have trolled in every thread and given it a new direction. i am sure you would be brought to a grinding halt very soon

 

[EjazR]

A study that further backs this claim is one conducted by an Indian journalism network in the early nineties whcih listed only merger with Pakistan or India as possible solutions. It was found that the overwhelming majority (do not remember the number) supported merger with Pakistan (the poll was alluded to in the documentary Jashn-e-Azadi).

The key point you mentioned is in the early nineties. You see historically, after the Afridi, Mehsud and Waziri tribesman invading J&K and unleashing loot and plunder among the mainly muslim and in the north shia muslim population, the opinion turned overwhelmingly anti-Pakistan. Sheikh Abdulla the most popular leader in the valley referred to the IA planes airlifting troops as Ababeels while the locals defended their towns and cities against the tribesman with whatever weapons they had and later even welcomes the troops. If the plebescite had been conducted right then and Pakistan had been forced to vacate the tribesman and the US and UK had not started playing their coldwar politics over Kashmir this would have been solved most likely in India's favor. However, the FANA was critical for the US to maintain spy outposts against the USSR and the plebiscite was never pushed and a wishy washy UN resolution put in place.

In the early nineties after the widespread rigging of polls, there was a spurt in anti-India sentiment which was no where to be seen before either in the 48, 65 or 71 wars. By '95 JKLF the mainly indigenous rebel group has declared ceasefire. One of the reasons was their leaders were actually being targeted by Pakistani based groups like LeT e.t.c. who wanted Kashmir to join Pakistan.

But what matters is the sentiment right now. The violence perpetrated by Pakistani based groups has had a blowback affect. Just like the support of the Taliban has had a blowback affect among the Afghan populace. The opinion poll was conducted in 2008, in the backdrop of Amarnath agitation, when presumably the opinions would be even more anti-Indian.

Sir, the militant networks are not majority Pakistanis as is being claimed, because such an idea is absurd to say the least. Separatist militant networks originated in Kashmir, and received traning, logistical support and reinforcements from Pakistan. Nobody is denying that Pakistanis are involved in the Valley, but their involvement is exaggerated to spread the false claim that we started this problem. Furthermore, Kashmiri youth has been becoming increasingly militant-minded, according to Eric Margolis, a Canadian expert on this issue. The reason for this is that the youth see little or no other options; they see that in the first 40 years of peaceful and political struggle got them nowhere, whereas the 20 years of militancy forced the Indian government to take notice. Hence, militancy cannot be stopped by Pakistan alone, as it would clearly be seen as withdrawal of support by the people of Kashmir. Militant networks, however, can be controlled or made passive for certain periods of time (as Yasin Malik's JKLF) to allow pro-India politicians and groups to express their opinions freely. For that to happen India will first have to show the resolve to find a solution. All we have been seeing so far is half-hearted participation in meetings where the Kashmir issue is put last on the to-do list.

Yes, I think there is no doubt that the militancy originated in Kashmir. However, they were armed and trained in Pakistan. But even that is understandable. Afterall, these were locals. But post 94-95, the local militancy was all but over and THAT's when the foreign extremist element took over. Initially you had sikh and hindus fighting along with the JKLF. But once the TTP clones came across and targetted religious minorities and any muslim that was not pro-Pakistan or a "spy" for the GoI the entire social fabric was torn.

The aim of the militants was to establish an independent J&K which included Pakistani side. The GoP and security establishment in Pakistan ofcourse did not want that. Infact, Pakistani groups like Hizb, HUJI e.t.c were probably more responsible in breaking the back of JKLF than Indian forces.

If you go through the poll, even for the valley Muslims violence instigated by Pakistan is in the top 10 problems . violence by IA also figures prominently by the way.

Arif Jamal's The Untold Story of "Jihad" in Kashmir is a pretty good book that documents the militancy there. A must read to understand what happened in the armed struggle and why it failed. I could give many anecdotal info shared with me by Kashmiri neighbors who moved to Hyderabad at the height of the militancy to escape the violence there, but this book by a Pakistani journalist was actually a confirmation of what I had only heard about the militancy till now form them.

Thus, the following points will make my solution possible:
(I) If independence is not an option, the Valley would choose Pakistan, plain and simple. Since self-determination is not something that India is keen on, and since indepence will not be supported in India, Pakistan, Jammu, Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan and Azad Kashmir, merger with Pakistan remains the only way forward that would be acceptable to the Valley.

But the valley separatists (falsely) give the illusion that Pakistan supports the Independence of a united J&K. The valley Kashmiris don't want to segregate from Jammu or Ladakh. Please note that 60-70% of govt. revenue comes from Jammu and these regions are all considered vital for an independent J&K to survive. Why doesn't the GoP clearly state that they are not going to support an independent J&K and remove the confusion? Because the confusion obviously is convenient for GoP but causing problems for the valley Kashmiris.

(II) The militancy began a long time after the occupation began, therefore, it will end once the occupation winds down. You cannot expect Pakistanis and Kashmiris to have blind faith in India's intentions to resolve the issue, mainly because India has given neither of us any reason to do so. Work towards a solution, reach a compromise, and I guarantee, militancy will decline (as it will no longer be seen as a requirement by Pakistanis or Kashmiris).

But I would look at it in the opposite way. Why did it begin after such a long time. Why did the locals fight against Pakistanis (or at most stayed neutral and not "help" Pakistani forces) in '48 or '65 or '71 or even in the most recent Kargil war in '99?

(III) India has not been serious about discussions at all, and is quite happy with the status quo

Sir, that is quite false. Since Nehru, India has been trying to resolve the J&K issue. But we had the operation gibralter in 65 followed by the Taskent agreement to resolve the Kashmir issue. After 71, it was again decided to work towards a peaceful settlement of Kashmir. After the militancy peaked and fell in the 90s, the BJP govt. was working on resolving the Kashmir issue when Kargil happened. Even then Vajpayee tried to resolve the Kashmir issue with Musharraf and then you had Singh and Musharraf "an announcement away" from the resolution of Kashmir when the Mumbai attacks happened.

So at least posts 9/11 Both the BJP and the Congress have gone ahead and implemented many CBMs and tried to resolve Kashmir. Now its time to see WHO is sabotaging he efforts. Are groups like LeT and Hizb helping or harming the process? Atleast I think it would be fair to say that GoI has been as sincere as the GoP in resolving the issue.

(IV) The presence of a mountain of Indian armed personnel and the constant human rights abuse are unacceptable to the people of Kashmir, and these factors also greatly hinder peace-building and trust-building. However, since India would be reluctant to decrease the troop-presence by too much before any resolution is reached, and both Pakistanis and Kashmiris would be reluctant to pull back all militant efforts as long as there is a strong Indian military presence, the solution must be reached before either side can de-escalate its military presence in the region.

GoI has been consistently decreasing troop numbers in the past 4 years. Most recently a 30,000 reduction in para-military forces was ordered. Infact, right now there are hardly any IA camps in population centres. There are still paramilitary camps and I agree they should be removed as well.

But at the same time, shouldn't GoP step in and honestly ban and shutdown LeT, JuD Hizb type groups? What sane person believes that these groups are part of the solution? Without these groups being taken head on there will be no way forward in resolving Kashmir as any pro-Indian or even pro-Independence advocate will not be safe as has been the case again and again.

 

[karan.1970]

@toxic_pus

http://www.defence.pk/forums/kashmi...r-seven-possible-solutions-46.html#post663942

Just to add to your post, I would suggest to focus on the option of granting more autonomy and restoring the A. 370 in its entirety. As you can see that has the least resistance of unacceptable for most people in J&K including non-muslims. It also has lesser resistance among valley muslims compared to other options.

Actually I like the idea All-Green put forth. On the face of it, that seems full of tactical issues, but would really be least disruptive. And if hearts and minds agree to the idea, then tactical difficulties can slowly be sorted out..

 

[karan.1970]

We all know what you are upto here. You have trolled in every thread and given it a new direction. i am sure you would be brought to a grinding halt very soon

I genuinely dont think so.. Please show me a single off topic comment that I have made here or in any other thread. You started listing the timeline of comments from GoI and I simply completed it. How is that off topic??
The threat of banning a member when you do not have a response is not becoming of a coveted position of a think tank. Rest I am ok letting the Mods decide..