The Era of Dog Fight returns. Feb 2019 has announced to the world.

[Maxpane]

Blinders did terrific job

 

[MastanKhan]

This is just an opinion based on the events of late Feb 2019 over the sky of Kashmir. The info of these events is highly classified so what available info I had I put the pieces together to make an understanding of it. I could be totally wrong all together but with info in hand this is what I can come up with.

View attachment 550078
World and World powers had thought they had moved out of the age of brave pilots chasing each other down and firing their 20mm into the wing or tail of opponent. It was the new age where you shoot down your enemy before you can see him with a BVR missile of pinpoint accuracy. Yes from 80s to 2000 we thought we had the advantage over everyone else as the age of gun was over. But the question is are we there yet?



It was the RADAR which made us thought that Gun in no more needed and now we can take the kill from miles away and tell the boys mission accomplished return to base. From pulse Doppler to AESA it all came so fast that once a deadly gun now looked like a burden of weight on a fighter jet. The term was lets fire and forget and there you had your kill. Humanity thought it was no more necessary for the human to be in the cockpit as it was now too dangerous with the range and radar the kill was confirm. They were moving to the sixth Gen with pilot less fighter jets. But let’s stop here and wait and look east something happened in the calm skies of Kashmir. A dog fight of the future which world was not expecting. The BVR was made obsolete and it was the gun and agility and tight turns and WVR that dominated the battlefield. What how who did this? We invested so much in an easy to kill method of BVR and they have ruined our dream.



The story starts with Indian aggression on a calm night of late Feb 2019 when India decided to kill few Muslim children sleeping on a hill top in Balakot. The BJP Govt came into power with politics of hate and shedding the blood of innocent Kashmiri youth in IOK was no longer fulfilled their agenda. They wanted the blood of children across the border to win the election and the hindutava supporters of BJP were now blood hungry and their thirst demanded them to violate the sovereignty of it’s neighbor. IAF flew in the dark of night like a pack of wolves hungry for Muslim blood. The selected their target and released their payload some 7 to 5 km inside Pakistani air space. These wolves had entered the cave of a Lion and they were at mistake. The lions PAF took to the air and denied them their targets. IAF had to return back with-out accomplishing their mission.



It was early light by now and Indian media were cheering their victory of throwing their bombs with in Pakistan there were parties in Delhi and Hindutava was praising Modi. It looked a clear election win for BJP and the day came to rest in India with huge victory. Next morning the Indian news papers were busy in writing stories of their great win and how they had humiliated their enemy. Morning shows were waving a Tiranga but then suddenly dots started appearing over the skies of Kashmir on Indian Air defence RADARS. In broad day light the lions had decided to hunt. It was the PAF strike package. They had entered from the south releasing their Payload once they had reached the height envelope of H-4 selecting targets in Naushera, Rajouri and Bimber Gali with Indian high command still sitting in his office the PAF glide bomb exploded outside his window putting the horror of PAF into his heart. The mission was to recreate the fear of PAF into the hearts of IAF which they had forgotten in 30 years. As the bombs fell few distance from their target PAF had demonstrated India they can and they will take them out if India plans any misadventure.



At this very moment 2 Mig-21 bison of IAF took off from Srinagar air-force base. Wing commander Abhinandan and his wing man were the first to respond to PAF. As soon as the took to air Nouman ali locked to the wing commander Abhinandan’s wing man with a BVR and took him down with his BVR. The rules of engagement were normal till now. Abhinandan after lossing his wing-man asked for support on Radio. The Indian defenses got activated. Abhinandan was give full aerial superiority by ground assets. Indian ground assets locked PAF and took the shot but at this very moment the whole battlefield over IOK changed it went from 4th Gen war to 5th Gen and Electronic warfare assets of PAF kicked in. The RADAR signals started getting jammed the missile of Indian air defenses lost its lock and went for a Mi-17 helicopter flying above Budgam. Abhinandans R-77 got jammed and became useless he had no target lock it seemed the Jammers had made BRV a tool of the past. Abhinandan went supersonic to avenge his wing man and catch the escaping PAF strike party. He jettison his extra fuel tank over Pakistani air space and had crossed LOC. Trying to get PAF strike party in his R-73 range. At this very moment a lion from the pride rolled into a right horizontal turn a maneuver which Mig-21 loves and falls into the Mig21s best maneuvers. In the mean time Indian SU30Mki are moving in fast to help their Mig-21 over Pakistani territory but they are not able to get any lock or track as Pakistani Electronic warfare asset is painting their search RADARS with multiple assets their RADAR screens are showing them multiple bogies at this long range and they cannot differentiate between real and fake. Plus with Abhinandan and Hassan Saddiqi in a horizental roll all friend and foe signal are jammed the SU-30 risk killing Abhinandan like they are killed their own Mi-17 helicopter. The density of electronic warfare had made the skies of Kashmir a no BVR engagement zone it is now a battlefield for old school where a gun and a IR homer had played for decades. The world was watching this quietly as their technologies were being thrown into waste bins and Stealth was bringing the Hippy with the gun back into town. IAF scared of Pakistani BVR fired their own ELTA 8222 pods to help their wolf who was chasing a lion.



Mig-21 is well known for it highly agile horizontal turn a maneuver that world has known ever since the Vietnam skies no one can defeat Mig-21 in this horizontal turn and Hassan Sadiqui seemed like a prey to Abhinandan. He dived behind JF-17 of PAF into a game Mig-21 loved. Well aware that with electronic warfare active from both sides the BVR are out of question and there will be no interference from out side The Mig-21 and JF-17 were moving around each other in a horizontal roll like 2 stars stuck in each others gravity field. Both jets of PAF and IAF were trying to get to the tail of the other to lock heat seekers. But then Abhinandan realized he has been out played the horizontal sharp turn was no more a domain which Mig-21 dominated the JF-17 had a trick up it sleeve the Thunder Turn a horizontal turn which was more dominant and Hassan was catching up on Abhinandan’s tail. Abhinandan had no way out he cannot engage vertical maneuver this would cost him more air speed and he will die much faster now all he could do was wait for that end he was destined for. Hassan sadiqqi got him in his cross-air and fired the PL-5 IR short range missile and Abhinandan was doomed, the lion had tasted the blood of IAF. World was in a shock to see all advance tech of IAF being scraped to nothing and PAF had its gun and seeker back. From the era of MM-Alam PAF loved the Gun and turns and now Electronic war had given them what they craved for. PAF loved F-16 and now there it was JF-17 fulfilling their addiction. They had learned from their students in middle east that Mig-21 was best in horizontal turn and PAF planned for this dominance in dog fight from the very start and they achieved it. Abhinandan pulled his ejection lever to save his life and PL-5 from Hassan’s JF-17 shattered IAF pride whole India watched this from a distance how electronic warfare has denounced them the superiority they so boasted about. The era of dog fight had returned. With stealth and EW suites the Gun was again the weapon of choice and WVR was the new Battlefield. The huge distance which RADAR use to provide had diminished and it was back to I see you.



There RADAR and counter measures will always be in war and as the technology develops the domains will widen but Gun will always remain relevant in an air war with stealth becoming the future the Gun now has an even better future. Jammer are here to stay and stealth is the name of 5th gen now so it is time to keep those guns greased. It is a reality world needs to accept because PAF has changed the rule book which technology had written. It is shock for the world powers all around but it is what it is.

Hi,

Thank you for that informative post---.

People should never forget---it is war---and in war---anything can happen. When a single soldier can charge a machine gun post unscathed when hundreds of bullets are flying around---then a WVR combat can happen in the dominant BVR campaign---.

The lesson learnt is---never take anything for granted in war---.

Now---on another note---I had written many a times---the JF17 never showed its true capabilities in the air shows---the take off and climb with its wheels down was a clear signal that it did not want to show its power---.

Now some of you have seen it on or before the 23rd march parade---.

Last must not the least---

Please refrain from calling names to Wing Commander Abhinandan---. He is an extremely brave soldier.

How can you tell if a soldier is brave---when he crosses onto the enemies side to fight---that is what he did---.

After he parachuted down---he acted like a true soldier and raised the slogan of his nation---he then tried to escape---even when he was beaten by civilians---he did not beg or plead for mercy---any and all conversation that he had---he acted professional---respectful---and showed no fear---.

Wing Commander Abhinandan must be shown the respect on this forum deserving a brave enemy soldier---.

 

[Beast]

I cannot tell it is real because this whole info over Kashmir skies is classified from both sides. I have made this assessment based to early reports of the events before the propaganda machine kicked in from Indian side. I know for real that JF-17 can out maneuver Mig-21 bison in a horizontal roll. Electronic warfare was heavily used over Kashmir and Abhinandan went supersonic towards south west and I have seen image of jets in a horizontal sharp right turn over Kashmir sky of 2 jets. There was a MIG-21 crash over Budgam from where Abhinandan took of and Abhinandan was missing a wing man and he was solo. Mi-17 helicopter of IAF was shutdown over Budgam by their own ground asset due to friend and foe being Jammed by EW suites. This is the reconstruction of all the info I can accumulate. You can call it a fiction or reality as you like but it is something we will never know. So this is the best explanation I can come up with.

@MastanKhan might help more with this.

Mig-21 Bison is crapped when comes to turning. It is not an agile fighter but designed for high speed only. The only reason it beat F-4 Phantom in Vietnam War is becos F-4 is an even more terrible aircraft when comes to turning.

There is an reason why F-7PG and J-7G are used by PAF and PLAAF. But Bison has their advantage. It is a much bigger aircraft compare to F-7PG and the nose cone and fuselage spine can house far more avionics and electronic system like Jammer.

 

[Dushyant]

Hi,

Thank you for that informative post---.

People should never forget---it is war---and in war---anything can happen. When a single soldier can charge a machine gun post unscathed when hundreds of bullets are flying around---then a WVR combat can happen in the dominant BVR campaign---.

The lesson learnt is---never take anything for granted in war---.

Now---on another note---I had written many a times---the JF17 never showed its true capabilities in the air shows---the take off and climb with its wheels down was a clear signal that it did not want to show its power---.

Now some of you have seen it on or before the 23rd march parade---.

Last must not the least---

Please refrain from calling names to Wing Commander Abhinandan---. He is an extremely brave soldier.

How can you tell if a soldier is brave---when he crosses onto the enemies side to fight---that is what he did---.

After he parachuted down---he acted like a true soldier and raised the slogan of his nation---he then tried to escape---even when he was beaten by civilians---he did not beg or plead for mercy---any and all conversation that he had---he acted professional---respectful---and showed no fear---.

Wing Commander Abhinandan must be shown the respect on this forum deserving a brave enemy soldier---.

All soldiers deserve respect , afterall they are the only ones who got out of their cozy blankets at home and families love , decided to go on an uncertain life. And for officer cader you not only have to have prime fitness ( a sacrifice in itself in this age of home delivered pizza and coke) but have a sound mental ability aswel. And by chance i have noticed actual serving / nonserving/ retired personell from forces do less melodrama and keyboard fighting that dudes in class 12 on papas paid internet.

 

[princefaisal]

There are some questions, which needs to be clarified:

1. Which Pakistani aircraft jammed the Indian assets? Either it is JF17 or the blinders behind?

2. Which Indian aircraft is using jamming against PAF BVRs? Either it is Mig21 or Su30 or some other aircraft behind?

3. How Brig. Nouman ali locked to the wing commander Abhinandan’s wing man with a BVR in a No-BVR zone?

 

[Dushyant]

There are some questions, which needs to be clarified:

1. Which Pakistani aircraft jammed the Indian assets? Either it is JF17 or the blinders behind?

2. Which Indian aircraft is using jamming against PAF BVRs? Either it is Mig21 or Su30 or some other aircraft behind?

3. How Brig. Nouman ali locked to the wing commander Abhinandan’s wing man with a BVR in a No-BVR zone?

PAF has brigs in airforce? Didn't know that

Also can someone guide me , how to creat new threads? Not getting it , new to this place

 

[Hayreddin]

I always said indo pak air warfare is more of dog fight thn bvr and 27 feb showed it .

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

This is just an opinion based on the events of late Feb 2019 over the sky of Kashmir. The info of these events is highly classified so what available info I had I put the pieces together to make an understanding of it. I could be totally wrong all together but with info in hand this is what I can come up with.

View attachment 550078
World and World powers had thought they had moved out of the age of brave pilots chasing each other down and firing their 20mm into the wing or tail of opponent. It was the new age where you shoot down your enemy before you can see him with a BVR missile of pinpoint accuracy. Yes from 80s to 2000 we thought we had the advantage over everyone else as the age of gun was over. But the question is are we there yet?



It was the RADAR which made us thought that Gun in no more needed and now we can take the kill from miles away and tell the boys mission accomplished return to base. From pulse Doppler to AESA it all came so fast that once a deadly gun now looked like a burden of weight on a fighter jet. The term was lets fire and forget and there you had your kill. Humanity thought it was no more necessary for the human to be in the cockpit as it was now too dangerous with the range and radar the kill was confirm. They were moving to the sixth Gen with pilot less fighter jets. But let’s stop here and wait and look east something happened in the calm skies of Kashmir. A dog fight of the future which world was not expecting. The BVR was made obsolete and it was the gun and agility and tight turns and WVR that dominated the battlefield. What how who did this? We invested so much in an easy to kill method of BVR and they have ruined our dream.



The story starts with Indian aggression on a calm night of late Feb 2019 when India decided to kill few Muslim children sleeping on a hill top in Balakot. The BJP Govt came into power with politics of hate and shedding the blood of innocent Kashmiri youth in IOK was no longer fulfilled their agenda. They wanted the blood of children across the border to win the election and the hindutava supporters of BJP were now blood hungry and their thirst demanded them to violate the sovereignty of it’s neighbor. IAF flew in the dark of night like a pack of wolves hungry for Muslim blood. The selected their target and released their payload some 7 to 5 km inside Pakistani air space. These wolves had entered the cave of a Lion and they were at mistake. The lions PAF took to the air and denied them their targets. IAF had to return back with-out accomplishing their mission.



It was early light by now and Indian media were cheering their victory of throwing their bombs with in Pakistan there were parties in Delhi and Hindutava was praising Modi. It looked a clear election win for BJP and the day came to rest in India with huge victory. Next morning the Indian news papers were busy in writing stories of their great win and how they had humiliated their enemy. Morning shows were waving a Tiranga but then suddenly dots started appearing over the skies of Kashmir on Indian Air defence RADARS. In broad day light the lions had decided to hunt. It was the PAF strike package. They had entered from the south releasing their Payload once they had reached the height envelope of H-4 selecting targets in Naushera, Rajouri and Bimber Gali with Indian high command still sitting in his office the PAF glide bomb exploded outside his window putting the horror of PAF into his heart. The mission was to recreate the fear of PAF into the hearts of IAF which they had forgotten in 30 years. As the bombs fell few distance from their target PAF had demonstrated India they can and they will take them out if India plans any misadventure.



At this very moment 2 Mig-21 bison of IAF took off from Srinagar air-force base. Wing commander Abhinandan and his wing man were the first to respond to PAF. The rules of engagement were normal till now. The Indian defenses got activated. Abhinandan was give full aerial superiority by ground assets. Indian ground assets locked PAF and took the shot but at this very moment the whole battlefield over IOK changed it went from 4th Gen war to 5th Gen and Electronic warfare assets of PAF kicked in. The RADAR signals started getting jammed the missile of Indian air defenses lost its lock and went for a Mi-17 helicopter flying above Budgam. Abhinandans R-77 got jammed and became useless he had no target lock it seemed the Jammers had made BRV a tool of the past. Abhinandan went supersonic to avenge his wing man and catch the escaping PAF strike party. He jettison his extra fuel tank over Pakistani air space and had crossed LOC. Trying to get PAF strike party in his R-73 range. At this very moment a lion from the pride rolled into a right horizontal turn a maneuver which Mig-21 loves and falls into the Mig21s best maneuvers. In the mean time Indian SU30Mki are moving in fast to help their Mig-21 over Pakistani territory but they are not able to get any lock or track as Pakistani Electronic warfare asset is painting their search RADARS with multiple assets their RADAR screens are showing them multiple bogies at this long range and they cannot differentiate between real and fake. Plus with Abhinandan and Hassan Saddiqi in a horizental roll all friend and foe signal are jammed the SU-30 risk killing Abhinandan like they are killed their own Mi-17 helicopter. The density of electronic warfare had made the skies of Kashmir a no BVR engagement zone it is now a battlefield for old school where a gun and a IR homer had played for decades. The world was watching this quietly as their technologies were being thrown into waste bins and Stealth was bringing the Hippy with the gun back into town. IAF scared of Pakistani BVR fired their own ELTA 8222 pods to help their wolf who was chasing a lion.



Mig-21 is well known for it highly agile horizontal turn a maneuver that world has known ever since the Vietnam skies no one can defeat Mig-21 in this horizontal turn and Hassan Sadiqui seemed like a prey to Abhinandan. He dived behind JF-17 of PAF into a game Mig-21 loved. Well aware that with electronic warfare active from both sides the BVR are out of question and there will be no interference from out side The Mig-21 and JF-17 were moving around each other in a horizontal roll like 2 stars stuck in each others gravity field. Both jets of PAF and IAF were trying to get to the tail of the other to lock heat seekers. But then Abhinandan realized he has been out played the horizontal sharp turn was no more a domain which Mig-21 dominated the JF-17 had a trick up it sleeve the Thunder Turn a horizontal turn which was more dominant and Hassan was catching up on Abhinandan’s tail. Abhinandan had no way out he cannot engage vertical maneuver this would cost him more air speed and he will die much faster now all he could do was wait for that end he was destined for. Hassan sadiqqi got him in his cross-air and fired the PL-5 IR short range missile and Abhinandan was doomed, the lion had tasted the blood of IAF. World was in a shock to see all advance tech of IAF being scraped to nothing and PAF had its gun and seeker back. From the era of MM-Alam PAF loved the Gun and turns and now Electronic war had given them what they craved for. PAF loved F-16 and now there it was JF-17 fulfilling their addiction. They had learned from their students in middle east that Mig-21 was best in horizontal turn and PAF planned for this dominance in dog fight from the very start and they achieved it. Abhinandan pulled his ejection lever to save his life and PL-5 from Hassan’s JF-17 shattered IAF pride whole India watched this from a distance how electronic warfare has denounced them the superiority they so boasted about. The era of dog fight had returned. With stealth and EW suites the Gun was again the weapon of choice and WVR was the new Battlefield. The huge distance which RADAR use to provide had diminished and it was back to I see you.



There RADAR and counter measures will always be in war and as the technology develops the domains will widen but Gun will always remain relevant in an air war with stealth becoming the future the Gun now has an even better future. Jammer are here to stay and stealth is the name of 5th gen now so it is time to keep those guns greased. It is a reality world needs to accept because PAF has changed the rule book which technology had written. It is shock for the world powers all around but it is what it is.

The Ehl-i Iman, by definition, produces "shocks" for the Ehl-i Dunya!!!!! Iblis (proper name of Satan/Devil/Lucifer etc.) prepares them for many stuffs, but conveniently avoid this "shock"!!! For he himself was a part of the "shock" troopers before he turned into Sheytan due to extreme arrogance, treachery, deception, cunningness and jealousy, the prominent signatures of his principal cohorts from the i-Countries!!!! The rest are all details....

La Galibe Illallah...

@The Accountant it was Israeli made Spyder Air defence missile that killed Mi-17 helicopter over Budgam and it was Jammed by PAF that is why the Mi-17 crashed.

Indian Missile Mistakenly Hit its Own Chopper in Conflict with Pakistan - Report

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201903291073647971-indian-missile-hits-own-chopper/

Pak folks have got into the Israili minds!!! Till now only Iblis has had the sole permission from the Mahlukat...

Iblis must be in a "shock"....

 

[M.AsfandYar]

PAF has brigs in airforce? Didn't know that

Also can someone guide me , how to creat new threads? Not getting it , new to this place

You can got to forum you want to create a thread in i.e INDIAN DEFENCE FORUM, there will be a button Create Thread at the Top right or Top center.

 

[MastanKhan]

There are some questions, which needs to be clarified:

1. Which Pakistani aircraft jammed the Indian assets? Either it is JF17 or the blinders behind?

2. Which Indian aircraft is using jamming against PAF BVRs? Either it is Mig21 or Su30 or some other aircraft behind?

3. How Brig. Nouman ali locked to the wing commander Abhinandan’s wing man with a BVR in a No-BVR zone?

Wow---we just give away your secrets---.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Last we checked both AMRAAM and SD-10 are BVRs. So dont understand what dog fight are we referring to here? AMRAAM was even found inside Indian territory.

AMRAAM was a taiwanese one, F16s werent used......Missiles were PL5EII WVR missile for Mig21 and SD10A BVR for Su30MKI.

 

[SSGcommandoPAK]

@The Accountant it was Israeli made Spyder Air defence missile that killed Mi-17 helicopter over Budgam and it was Jammed by PAF that is why the Mi-17 crashed.

Indian Missile Mistakenly Hit its Own Chopper in Conflict with Pakistan - Report

https://sputniknews.com/asia/201903291073647971-indian-missile-hits-own-chopper/

I am sure that during the fierce dogfights the Pakistani jets shot it down unintentionally though as it was not the primary target,now IAF is covering up the loss by saying that it was friendly fire after experts were raising questions that why did the heli blast mid air if it was a crash.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

There are some questions, which needs to be clarified:

1. Which Pakistani aircraft jammed the Indian assets? Either it is JF17 or the blinders behind?

2. Which Indian aircraft is using jamming against PAF BVRs? Either it is Mig21 or Su30 or some other aircraft behind?

3. How Brig. Nouman ali locked to the wing commander Abhinandan’s wing man with a BVR in a No-BVR zone?

1) it was Dassault Falcon Electronic Warfare plane that Pakistan uses, Its very old system but still better then those Israeli Missiles and their EW systems that India and they use as seen on 27th.
2) dont know, dont care......whatever that is its clearly crap!
3) It was a BVR zone clearly, Su30 because of its mammoth size and RCS is no match for JF17 in BVR and on top of it, it allowed JF17 to chase her, and SD10A did the rest......AWACS and ground based TPS 77 AESA RADARs proved to live up to their reputation ie BEASTS!

 

[Invincible007]

PAF has brigs in airforce? Didn't know that

i think he is WC because there is no brigds in pak airforce.

The RADAR signals started getting jammed the missile of Indian air defenses lost its lock and went for a Mi-17 helicopter flying above Budgam

I think this was the main reason for what their western air force commander was sacked. Things will get clear with time.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Are these details fictional or real ?

Human beings are in sleep (means in an "un-real" mode), when they die they wake up - Hazret-i Ali (RA)