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The Chattanooga Shootings: Can Attacking Military Sites of a Nation at War be “Terrorism”?

Are special forces also bound by those terms?
Yes. What make you think Special Forces are allowed to bypass them ?

What about drone attacks?
They are instruments of warfare. In principles, they are no different than the rifle.

Or the civilians killed in combat in Afghanistan?
What about them ?

Customary laws do not distinguish 'soldiers' and 'civilians' and the Geneva Conventions made that clear. A 'civilian' is a person not sworn into military service, but he can still be a combatant. Whether he is a 'legal' or 'illegal' combatant is a different issue.

My point is, that this argument is based on very very vague lines, and terrorism as we know it is not defined by a perfectly oolala term in a utopian world as some would have us believe, but as an attack by a Muslim. Any attack by a Muslim on the larger West, it's terrorism.
You are speaking emotionally, not rationally.

Are there Muslim countries ? Yes.

Are there Muslim armed forces ? Yes.

That means if a Western country and a Muslim country are at war against each other and as long as it is army against army, there will be NO charges of terrorism.
 
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Since those victimized by US aggression don't have armies strong enough to go at war with the U.S. in North America, reprisals like these are justified and unavoidable. I'm actually amazed and saddened that there is so little aggression against the American Empire.

The same goes with Hamas "rockets" fired at Israel, there is nothing else they can do. If Hamas had advanced weapons they would love to fight Israel on equal terms. Not to mention the fact that Israel itself is constantly targeting civilians on purpose despite having overwhelming military superiority.

Bottom line is, those who are murdering millions of people with total impunity must taste some of the pain and suffering they are inflicting on others throughout the world. Any decent human being will agree with this. Those who "disagree" with this I can't even consider human.
 
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If Hamas had advanced weapons they would love to fight Israel on equal terms.

What is stopping them from creating the weapons themselves? Let them educate their own population and create the knowledge and industrial bases to respond however they want. Or is that too much hard work and perpetually playing the victims is easier?
 
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What is stopping them from creating the weapons themselves? Let them educate their own population and create the knowledge and industrial bases to respond however they want. Or is that too much hard work and perpetually playing the victims is easier?

That's kinda hard when you are under siege.

But putting all emotions aside, Greenwald presents a pretty cogent point. If the US is at war with a certain outfit (in this case Jihadist), and is actively bombing/invading them overseas, then don't they have as much right to target military bases or recruitment centers here?
 
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The Chattanooga Shootings: Can Attacking Military Sites of a Nation at War be “Terrorism”?

:Â Â Information Clearing House - ICH

This whole 'article' smacks of a pathetic, poor and sorry attempt at justifying or legitimizing the terrorist attack on the recruitment centers. This is very disgraceful, but then hey what would one expect from degenerate terrorist supporters blinded by 'fairy tales' religious fundamentalism?
 
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That's kinda hard when you are under siege.

But putting all emotions aside, Greenwald presents a pretty cogent point. If the US is at war with a certain outfit (in this case Jihadist), and is actively bombing/invading them overseas, then don't they have as much right to target military bases or recruitment centers here?

And they are trying too. Let them, as long as they are ready for the consequences too. The better side wins. Always.

This whole 'article' smacks of a pathetic, poor and sorry attempt at justifying or legitimizing the terrorist attack on the recruitment centers. This is very disgraceful, but then hey what would one expect from degenerate terrorist supporters blinded by 'fairy tales' religious fundamentalism?

A very popular topic here on PDF.
 
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You will have to do a Public Declaration of War in accordance with Hague convention, 1907.
So I can send some comondo forces to kill another country officials and it wont considered war?
 
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So I can send some comondo forces to kill another country officials and it wont considered war?

It will be considered an act of aggression, not necessarily war. The country in the receiving end, however, may declare war on that basis.

We human beings have a habit of putting everything in order, finding patterns in every actions and defining rules for all that affects us.
We start walking that road and at one point of time, the journey starts feeling more important than the destination. What we loose in this massive exercise is common sense.

In reality, it's just a waste of time.
 
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That's kinda hard when you are under siege.

But putting all emotions aside, Greenwald presents a pretty cogent point. If the US is at war with a certain outfit (in this case Jihadist), and is actively bombing/invading them overseas, then don't they have as much right to target military bases or recruitment centers here?
In their minds, of course they have such a 'right'. As we can call such attacks 'terrorism', they can our attacks the same type of 'terrorism'. In the end, everybody 'terrorizes' each other. This broad scope of the word 'terrorism' is necessary in order to make palatable any violence against any target. Greenwald made no 'cogent' points, he merely repeated the same arguments made decades ago.

Every country have -- or should have -- a military. In the event of an inter-state armed conflict, the horrors of the previous two world wars compelled civilized countries to agree to a formal declaration that customary laws of warfare be the standards upon which parties of armed conflicts will be judged upon. The parties are supposed to engage military vs military. The Geneva Convention and related documents are plentiful and public enough for anyone to study. Too bad most people here are too lazy to do so and relied on intellectually dishonest people like Greenwald.
 
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Greenwald - a decent mind wasted on typical leftist BS. He should stick to what he is most known for - revealing more NSA secrets. :coffee:

By the way, what ever happened to the thousands of docs from Snowden's dump still pending to be published? Afraid or compromised? :azn:

The Chattanooga Shootings: Can Attacking Military Sites of a Nation at War be “Terrorism”?

By Glenn Greenwald


July 19, 2015 "Information Clearing House" - "The Intercept" - 07/17/15 - A gunman yesterday attacked two military sites in Chattanooga, Tennessee, killing four U.S Marines. Before anything was known about the suspect other than his name — Mohammod Youssuf Abdulazeez — it was instantly and widely declared by the U.S. media to be “terrorism.” An FBI official announced at a press briefing: “We will treat this as a terrorism investigation until it can be determined it was not.”

That “terrorism” in U.S. political and media discourse means little beyond “violence by Muslims against the West” is now too self-evident to debate (in this case, just the name of the suspect seemed to suffice to trigger application of the label). I’ve documented that point at length many times — most recently, a couple of weeks ago when the term was steadfastly not applied to the white shooter who attacked a black church in Charleston despite his clear political and ideological motives — and I don’t want to rehash those points here. Instead, I want to focus on a narrow question about this term: Can it apply to violent attacks that target military sites and soldiers of a nation at war, rather than civilians?

In common usage (as opposed to legal definitions), “terrorism” typically connotes, if not denotes, “violence against civilians.” If you ask most people why they regard the 9/11 attack as so singularly atrocious, you will likely hear that it was because the violence was aimed indiscriminately at civilians and at civilian targets. If you ask them to distinguish why they regard civilian-killing U.S. violence as legitimate and justified but regard the violence aimed at the U.S. as the opposite (“terrorism”), they’ll likely claim that the U.S. only kills civilians by accident, not on purpose. Whether one is targeting civilian versus military sites is a central aspect to how we talk about the justifiability of violence and what is and is not “terrorism.”

But increasingly in the West, violent attacks are aimed at purely military targets, yet are still being called “terrorism.” To this day, many people are indignant that Nidal Hasan was not formally charged with “terrorism” for his attack on the U.S. military base in Fort Hood, Texas (though he was widely called a “terrorist” by U.S. media reports). Last October in Canada — weeks after the government announced it would bomb Iraq against ISIS — a Muslim man waited for hours in his car in a parking lot until he saw two Canadian soldiers in uniform, and then ran them over, killing one; that was universally denounced as “terrorism” despite his obvious targeting of soldiers. Omar Khadr was sent to Guantanamo as a teenager and branded a “terrorist” for killing a U.S. soldier fighting the war in Afghanistan, during a firefight. One of the most notorious “terrorism” prosecutions in the U.S. — just brilliantly dissected by my colleague Murtaza Hussain — involved an alleged plot to attack the military base at Fort Dix. Trumpeted terror arrests in the U.S. now often involve plots against military rather than civilian targets. The 9/11 attack itself targeted the Pentagon in addition to the World Trade Center.

The argument that even attacks on military bases should be regarded as “terrorism” rests on the proposition that soldiers who are not actively engaged in combat when attacked are not legitimate targets. Instead, it is legitimate only to target them when engaging them on a battlefield. Under the law of war, one cannot, for instance, legally hunt down soldiers while they’re sleeping in their homes, or playing with their children, or buying groceries at a supermarket. Their mere status as “soldiers” does not mean it is legally permissible to target and kill them wherever they are found. It is only permissible to do so on the battlefield, when they are engaged in combat.

That argument has a solid footing in both law and morality. But it is extremely difficult to understand how anyone who supports the military actions of the U.S. and their allies under the “War on Terror” rubric can possibly advance that view with a straight face. The official framework that drives the West’s military behavior is the exact antithesis of that legal and moral standard. When it comes to justifying their own violence, the U.S. and their closest allies have spent the last 15 years, at least, insisting on precisely the opposite view.

The U.S. drone program constantly targets individuals regarded as “illegal combatants” and kills them without the slightest regard for where they are or what they are doing at that moment: at their homes, in their sleep, driving in a car with family members, etc. The U.S. often targets people without even knowing their names or identities, based on their behavioral “patterns”; the Obama administration literally re-defined “combatant” to mean “all military-age males in a strike zone.” The “justification” for all this is that these are enemy combatants and they therefore can be legitimately targeted and killed no matter where they are found or what they are doing at the time; one need not wait until they are engaged in combat or on a battlefield. The U.S. government has officially embraced that view.

Indeed, the central premise of the War on Terror always has been, and still is, that there is no such thing as a physically limited space called “the battlefield.” Instead, the whole world is one big, limitless “battlefield”: the “battlefield” is wherever enemy combatants are found. That means that the U.S. has codified the notion that one does not have to wait for a “combatant” to enter a designated battlefield and engage in combat; instead, he is a fair target for killing anywhere he is found.

The U.S.’s closest allies have long embraced the same mindset. The Israelis have used targeted assassination of the country’s enemies — killing them wherever they are found — for decades. They’ve murdered multiple Iranian scientists at their homes. They deliberately bombed the home of a Gazan police chief and killed 15 people inside. They previously killed 40 police trainees when bombing a police station. Just this week, my colleague Matthew Cole used NSA documents to prove that Israeli commandos in 2008 shot and killed a Syrian general while he hosted a dinner party at his seaside vacation home. This all is grounded in the view that one need not wait until one’s enemies enter a “battlefield” and engage in combat in order to kill them.

The question here about the Chattanooga shootings and similar attacks is not whether any or all of this is justified. The question is whether the term “terrorism” applies to such acts, and whether the term has any consistent meaning. To question whether something qualifies as “terrorism” quite obviously is not to say it is justifiable: All sorts of violence is wrong without being “terrorism.”

One could argue that attacks such as last night’s in Chattanooga count as “terrorism” despite targeting military sites because they are not carried out by states but rather by individuals or non-state actors. But that’s just another way of saying that the violence the U.S. engages in as part of the War on Terror is inherently justified and legitimate, while the violence engaged in by its declared enemies — non-state actors — never is. This is all about creating self-justifying double standards: Just imagine the outrage that would pour forth if Syria had sent a commando force to kill an American or Israeli general in his home.

And ultimately, that’s the real point here: The U.S. Government, its allies and their apologists constantly propagate standards that have no purpose other than to legitimize all of their violence while de-legitimizing all violence by their enemies in the “war” they have declared. Nothing is more central to that effort than the propagandistic invocation of the term “terrorism.” We’re now at the point where it is “terrorism” when enemies of the U.S. target American military bases and soldiers, but not “terrorism” when the U.S. recklessly engages in violence it knows will kill large numbers of civilians.

UPDATE: A tweet from CNN today:

cnn-540x199.png

If any enemy of the West ever made a similar claim, it would be denounced as an oxymoron.

                Â
:Â Â Information Clearing House - ICH

Are you a Pakistani? If so, let us know if you consider the attack outlined in the below article as 'terrorist attack'?

Militants attack Pakistan nuclear air base - Telegraph

Since those victimized by US aggression don't have armies strong enough to go at war with the U.S. in North America, reprisals like these are justified and unavoidable. I'm actually amazed and saddened that there is so little aggression against the American Empire.

The same goes with Hamas "rockets" fired at Israel, there is nothing else they can do. If Hamas had advanced weapons they would love to fight Israel on equal terms. Not to mention the fact that Israel itself is constantly targeting civilians on purpose despite having overwhelming military superiority.

Bottom line is, those who are murdering millions of people with total impunity must taste some of the pain and suffering they are inflicting on others throughout the world. Any decent human being will agree with this. Those who "disagree" with this I can't even consider human.

Ugh.. too much self righteousness.

The 'terrorists' Pak military or any military for that matter, kill and destroy, too feel they could do better and fight on 'even' terms if they had better funding and infrastructure.

Every country does what it feels to be in its interests. US does it better and on larger scale they can because they have the ability.
 
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Every country does what it feels to be in its interests. US does it better and on larger scale they can because they have the ability.

What people forget is that USA's path to such domination is paved with lots and lots and lots of sheer hard work. Let others work harder and they can benefit from such supremacy too. Nobody has a monopoly on hard work and knowledge.
 
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What people forget is that USA's path to such domination is paved with lots and lots and lots of sheer hard work. Let others work harder and they can benefit from such supremacy too. Nobody has a monopoly on hard work and knowledge.

True. Attaining a dominant position is difficult, maintaining that position is much harder. History is full of such powers - most recent the Soviet Union. US policy is to make sure they are the preeminent power in the world for the foreseeable future - as any sane nation in their position would do.

The US has done that successfully since WWII and I don't see anyone seriously challenging them anytime soon. Though, I am sure their think tanks and strategic planners take any competition seriously - probably more seriously than said competition deserves.

I didn't even get into history. Do these people who curse the US believe that previous empires were constructed on a bed of flowers?
 
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True. Attaining a dominant position is difficult, maintaining that position is much harder. History is full of such powers - most recent the Soviet Union. US policy is to make sure they are the preeminent power in the world for the foreseeable future - as any sane nation in their position would do.

The US has done that successfully since WWII and I don't see anyone seriously challenging them anytime soon. Though, I am sure their think tanks and strategic planners take any competition seriously - probably more seriously than said competition deserves.

I didn't even get into history. Do these people who curse the US believe that previous empires were constructed on a bed of flowers?

USA will surely decline too - someday. A new leader will take over the reign. And the cycle repeats.
 
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USA will surely decline too - someday. A new leader will take over the reign. And the cycle repeats.

Of course but such historic cycles involves decades if not centuries and the real American dominance has been since the WWII where they have been able to dominate economically, politically and militarily. So they have plenty of time, particularly with no real challenger.

More importantly, the decline can be gradual or cataclysmic. As long as US manages its decline and prolongs it, they'd be in a much better position compared to say a USSR or rather post-Soviet Russia.

Lastly, you need major developments - such as the industrial revolution or world wars to shift the real balance of power. Lets see what's in store. I don't see anything of a similar level in atleast in the first half of this century. Thus, I expect their decline - relatively speaking to be very gradual.
 
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