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The Chattanooga Shootings: Can Attacking Military Sites of a Nation at War be “Terrorism”?

In their minds, of course they have such a 'right'. As we can call such attacks 'terrorism', they can our attacks the same type of 'terrorism'. In the end, everybody 'terrorizes' each other. This broad scope of the word 'terrorism' is necessary in order to make palatable any violence against any target. Greenwald made no 'cogent' points, he merely repeated the same arguments made decades ago.

Every country have -- or should have -- a military. In the event of an inter-state armed conflict, the horrors of the previous two world wars compelled civilized countries to agree to a formal declaration that customary laws of warfare be the standards upon which parties of armed conflicts will be judged upon. The parties are supposed to engage military vs military. The Geneva Convention and related documents are plentiful and public enough for anyone to study. Too bad most people here are too lazy to do so and relied on intellectually dishonest people like Greenwald.

The defining of terrorism depends on who you ask.

Geneva has been around since before ww1 and has been violated and continues to be violated by member states. It is utterly toothless and unenforceable. During WW2 and after 9-11 we pretty much stopped even pretending to abide by it. So if the great superpower doesnt abide by it why should others? Its also easy to lecture other countries about Geneva Convention when they are the ones playing defense. Put yourself in someone else's shoes (like an Iraqi or Vietnamese). Would you expect them to follow military rules of engagement when your country has been invaded by a far more powerful military without provocation? I don't. I say do away with all these silly feel good laws and replace them with one. The only just war is a war of self defense and in such an instance the defending country can do whatever it takes to repel their invader. IF you don't want to be attacked stop attacking others. Simple.
 
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The defining of terrorism depends on who you ask.
I will grant you that.

Geneva has been around since before ww1 and has been violated and continues to be violated by member states. It is utterly toothless and unenforceable.
Customary rules of warfare are enforceable only after the fact, aka "victor's justice" if one is to be cynical about it. Nevertheless, it IS accepted that some rules/conducts of warfare must be morally condemned and prosecuted if possible regardless of pretentious cynicism.

Tell us for the public record that YOU believe that rape as a state sanctioned method of warfare should be allowed.

During WW2 and after 9-11 we pretty much stopped even pretending to abide by it. So if the great superpower doesnt abide by it why should others? Its also easy to lecture other countries about Geneva Convention when they are the ones playing defense. Put yourself in someone else's shoes (like an Iraqi or Vietnamese). Would you expect them to follow military rules of engagement when your country has been invaded by a far more powerful military without provocation? I don't. I say do away with all these silly feel good laws and replace them with one. The only just war is a war of self defense and in such an instance the defending country can do whatever it takes to repel their invader. IF you don't want to be attacked stop attacking others. Simple.
I wonder about the target of that admonition. I doubt that it includes the various despots throughout time and continents. :lol:
 
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I will grant you that.


Customary rules of warfare are enforceable only after the fact, aka "victor's justice" if one is to be cynical about it. Nevertheless, it IS accepted that some rules/conducts of warfare must be morally condemned and prosecuted if possible regardless of pretentious cynicism.

Tell us for the public record that YOU believe that rape as a state sanctioned method of warfare should be allowed.


I wonder about the target of that admonition. I doubt that it includes the various despots throughout time and continents. :lol:

Yes we can condemn them, but its really only the losing side that is held responsible. Rules and laws are useless if they are selectively enforced.

I don't like rape or war crimes anymore than you do but I don't see them in a vacuum. I look at the root of the problem not the branch. If a people defending themselves go a little crazy it's hard for me to wag my finger at them when all the carnage could have been avoided if they were just left alone.

My admonitions are universal. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I realized a long time ago that America cannot and should not be the world's policeman. What foreign despots do is none of my business. I wouldn't mess with them any more than I would mess with Canada.
 
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Yes we can condemn them, but its really only the losing side that is held responsible. Rules and laws are useless if they are selectively enforced.

I don't like rape or war crimes anymore than you do but I don't see them in a vacuum. I look at the root of the problem not the branch. If a people defending themselves go a little crazy it's hard for me to wag my finger at them when all the carnage could have been avoided if they were just left alone.

My admonitions are universal. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I realized a long time ago that America cannot and should not be the world's policeman. What foreign despots do is none of my business. I wouldn't mess with them any more than I would mess with Canada.
As to the highlighted above -- no, yours is not. I know your type. I debated them, live and remote, often enough to know that your type is essentially about cowardice when it comes to other countries.

I have been in engineering all my life. First it was in aviation, now it is semiconductor. People like me have little tolerance for people like you -- whiners.

In the international order, the world is essentially anarchic. Contrary to popular misconception, anarchy is not about mindless violence and general disorder. Rather, anarchy is the opposite of hierarchy: the absence of an orderly structure with an authority figure who can and will enforce the rules that governs said structure.

You pretentiously spouted of customary laws: It is utterly toothless and unenforceable.

Then you further pretentiously admonished: I say do away with all these silly feel good laws and replace them with one. The only just war is a war of self defense...

Do you not see how you contradict yourself ? Of course not. Whiners usually do not. What make you think that the one piece of relationship common sense that have been ignored throughout the ages can be enforced when so many others could not ?

Saddam Hussein justified -- to make right -- his invasion of Kuwait by accusing Kuwait of economic warfare against Iraq via Kuwaiti below surface lateral drilling into Iraqi soil.

Care to research how Imperial Japan justified -- to make right -- the invasion of mainland China ?

People -- whiners -- like you usually do not have the intellectual courage and stamina to properly research the history of the problem, the parties involved, the factors that maybe variable, and the current structure and circumstances that sustains said problem. How could you when you do not even recognize your own contradiction ? Whiners are best at pointing out the flaws in the people who tries to fix the problem and the methodologies used in trying to fix the problem.

The international order is in anarchy is because not one country is willing to cede sovereignty. Simple as that. United Nations or not, any country can and have often defied UN consensus and acted in self interests. What you pretentiously admonished is unworkable in the absence of an overriding authority figure to enforce global order.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Gosh...How nice...Why did I not think of that before...??? :lol:
 
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Yes. What make you think Special Forces are allowed to bypass them ?

So are you saying that special forces:

- Be distinctive.
- Openly display his weapons.
- Stay away from non-combatants.
?

Remember how Israel killed the founder of the Qassam Brigades in Dubai?

Or maybe how raids are conducted within the territories of other countries without being distinctive, or openly displaying weapons or staying away from non-combatants...

They are instruments of warfare. In principles, they are no different than the rifle.

Well they fail the criteria of staying away from non-combatants then.



You are speaking emotionally, not rationally.

Are there Muslim countries ? Yes.

Are there Muslim armed forces ? Yes.

That means if a Western country and a Muslim country are at war against each other and as long as it is army against army, there will be NO charges of terrorism.

Yup there won't be.

But when US invades Iraq and then pummels them all over, the people fighting against the invasion are labeled terrorists...now where do those people get a country from that will be all constitutional and legal according to the laws of the US or whoever.

My point is that these definitions and nice words and laws are only applicable in a fairy world, where all is perfect.

You can't do that in a real world like we are living in...hence coming back to square one, a person can be labeled a terrorist or a mentally deranged madman or a white supremacist or a racist by those who are in power of world affairs, even if it's right or wrong.

Saddam Hussein justified -- to make right -- his invasion of Kuwait by accusing Kuwait of economic warfare against Iraq via Kuwaiti below surface lateral drilling into Iraqi soil.

Care to research how Imperial Japan justified -- to make right -- the invasion of mainland China ?


How US justified invasion of Iraq by making up WMD's.

How US bombed two Japanese cities with nuclear bombs.

How US and the world at large went on a leg to stop Iran from getting nukes since they are weapons of mass destruction, even though they have them themselves.

As you said, it's Victor's justice...whatever the strong man feels is right, you better be damn sure it's right! :)

I will grant you that.


Customary rules of warfare are enforceable only after the fact, aka "victor's justice" if one is to be cynical about it.


And that is my point...and it seems you agree with it.

That will be all.
 
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The Chattanooga Shootings: Can Attacking Military Sites of a Nation at War be “Terrorism”?

By Glenn Greenwald


July 19, 2015 "Information Clearing House" - "The Intercept" - 07/17/15 - A gunman yesterday attacked two military sites in Chattanooga, Tennessee, killing four U.S Marines. Before anything was known about the suspect other than his name — Mohammod Youssuf Abdulazeez — it was instantly and widely declared by the U.S. media to be “terrorism.” An FBI official announced at a press briefing: “We will treat this as a terrorism investigation until it can be determined it was not.”

That “terrorism” in U.S. political and media discourse means little beyond “violence by Muslims against the West” is now too self-evident to debate (in this case, just the name of the suspect seemed to suffice to trigger application of the label). I’ve documented that point at length many times — most recently, a couple of weeks ago when the term was steadfastly not applied to the white shooter who attacked a black church in Charleston despite his clear political and ideological motives — and I don’t want to rehash those points here. Instead, I want to focus on a narrow question about this term: Can it apply to violent attacks that target military sites and soldiers of a nation at war, rather than civilians?

In common usage (as opposed to legal definitions), “terrorism” typically connotes, if not denotes, “violence against civilians.” If you ask most people why they regard the 9/11 attack as so singularly atrocious, you will likely hear that it was because the violence was aimed indiscriminately at civilians and at civilian targets. If you ask them to distinguish why they regard civilian-killing U.S. violence as legitimate and justified but regard the violence aimed at the U.S. as the opposite (“terrorism”), they’ll likely claim that the U.S. only kills civilians by accident, not on purpose. Whether one is targeting civilian versus military sites is a central aspect to how we talk about the justifiability of violence and what is and is not “terrorism.”

But increasingly in the West, violent attacks are aimed at purely military targets, yet are still being called “terrorism.” To this day, many people are indignant that Nidal Hasan was not formally charged with “terrorism” for his attack on the U.S. military base in Fort Hood, Texas (though he was widely called a “terrorist” by U.S. media reports). Last October in Canada — weeks after the government announced it would bomb Iraq against ISIS — a Muslim man waited for hours in his car in a parking lot until he saw two Canadian soldiers in uniform, and then ran them over, killing one; that was universally denounced as “terrorism” despite his obvious targeting of soldiers. Omar Khadr was sent to Guantanamo as a teenager and branded a “terrorist” for killing a U.S. soldier fighting the war in Afghanistan, during a firefight. One of the most notorious “terrorism” prosecutions in the U.S. — just brilliantly dissected by my colleague Murtaza Hussain — involved an alleged plot to attack the military base at Fort Dix. Trumpeted terror arrests in the U.S. now often involve plots against military rather than civilian targets. The 9/11 attack itself targeted the Pentagon in addition to the World Trade Center.

The argument that even attacks on military bases should be regarded as “terrorism” rests on the proposition that soldiers who are not actively engaged in combat when attacked are not legitimate targets. Instead, it is legitimate only to target them when engaging them on a battlefield. Under the law of war, one cannot, for instance, legally hunt down soldiers while they’re sleeping in their homes, or playing with their children, or buying groceries at a supermarket. Their mere status as “soldiers” does not mean it is legally permissible to target and kill them wherever they are found. It is only permissible to do so on the battlefield, when they are engaged in combat.

That argument has a solid footing in both law and morality. But it is extremely difficult to understand how anyone who supports the military actions of the U.S. and their allies under the “War on Terror” rubric can possibly advance that view with a straight face. The official framework that drives the West’s military behavior is the exact antithesis of that legal and moral standard. When it comes to justifying their own violence, the U.S. and their closest allies have spent the last 15 years, at least, insisting on precisely the opposite view.

The U.S. drone program constantly targets individuals regarded as “illegal combatants” and kills them without the slightest regard for where they are or what they are doing at that moment: at their homes, in their sleep, driving in a car with family members, etc. The U.S. often targets people without even knowing their names or identities, based on their behavioral “patterns”; the Obama administration literally re-defined “combatant” to mean “all military-age males in a strike zone.” The “justification” for all this is that these are enemy combatants and they therefore can be legitimately targeted and killed no matter where they are found or what they are doing at the time; one need not wait until they are engaged in combat or on a battlefield. The U.S. government has officially embraced that view.

Indeed, the central premise of the War on Terror always has been, and still is, that there is no such thing as a physically limited space called “the battlefield.” Instead, the whole world is one big, limitless “battlefield”: the “battlefield” is wherever enemy combatants are found. That means that the U.S. has codified the notion that one does not have to wait for a “combatant” to enter a designated battlefield and engage in combat; instead, he is a fair target for killing anywhere he is found.

The U.S.’s closest allies have long embraced the same mindset. The Israelis have used targeted assassination of the country’s enemies — killing them wherever they are found — for decades. They’ve murdered multiple Iranian scientists at their homes. They deliberately bombed the home of a Gazan police chief and killed 15 people inside. They previously killed 40 police trainees when bombing a police station. Just this week, my colleague Matthew Cole used NSA documents to prove that Israeli commandos in 2008 shot and killed a Syrian general while he hosted a dinner party at his seaside vacation home. This all is grounded in the view that one need not wait until one’s enemies enter a “battlefield” and engage in combat in order to kill them.

The question here about the Chattanooga shootings and similar attacks is not whether any or all of this is justified. The question is whether the term “terrorism” applies to such acts, and whether the term has any consistent meaning. To question whether something qualifies as “terrorism” quite obviously is not to say it is justifiable: All sorts of violence is wrong without being “terrorism.”

One could argue that attacks such as last night’s in Chattanooga count as “terrorism” despite targeting military sites because they are not carried out by states but rather by individuals or non-state actors. But that’s just another way of saying that the violence the U.S. engages in as part of the War on Terror is inherently justified and legitimate, while the violence engaged in by its declared enemies — non-state actors — never is. This is all about creating self-justifying double standards: Just imagine the outrage that would pour forth if Syria had sent a commando force to kill an American or Israeli general in his home.

And ultimately, that’s the real point here: The U.S. Government, its allies and their apologists constantly propagate standards that have no purpose other than to legitimize all of their violence while de-legitimizing all violence by their enemies in the “war” they have declared. Nothing is more central to that effort than the propagandistic invocation of the term “terrorism.” We’re now at the point where it is “terrorism” when enemies of the U.S. target American military bases and soldiers, but not “terrorism” when the U.S. recklessly engages in violence it knows will kill large numbers of civilians.

UPDATE: A tweet from CNN today:

cnn-540x199.png

If any enemy of the West ever made a similar claim, it would be denounced as an oxymoron.

                Â
:Â Â Information Clearing House - ICH
I love the article but not going to comment here .
 
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As to the highlighted above -- no, yours is not. I know your type. I debated them, live and remote, often enough to know that your type is essentially about cowardice when it comes to other countries.

So not meddling in other countries affairs makes me a coward? That means Washington, Jefferson, Madison and pretty much every president until Theodore Roosevelt were all cowards as well cause we share the same foreign policy.

I have been in engineering all my life. First it was in aviation, now it is semiconductor. People like me have little tolerance for people like you -- whiners.

I don't see how pertinent your biography is to the issue at hand.

Where did you get the impression I was whining? My opinion of this must have really touched a nerve. I think your military background is getting you a little emotional. On the other hand, I'm as stoic as it gets. If you attack others don't complain when you get attacked yourself.

In the international order, the world is essentially anarchic. Contrary to popular misconception, anarchy is not about mindless violence and general disorder. Rather, anarchy is the opposite of hierarchy: the absence of an orderly structure with an authority figure who can and will enforce the rules that governs said structure.

You pretentiously spouted of customary laws: It is utterly toothless and unenforceable.

Then you further pretentiously admonished: I say do away with all these silly feel good laws and replace them with one. The only just war is a war of self defense...

Do you not see how you contradict yourself ? Of course not. Whiners usually do not. What make you think that the one piece of relationship common sense that have been ignored throughout the ages can be enforced when so many others could not ?

How is the world anarchic when we have NATO, UN etc. That looks like a very powerful order to me. Your beginning to muddy the waters a little here. You were talking about military rules of war and Geneva conventions and I quickly dismissed how useless there were. Simple. The government doesn't obey them and neither do the so called 'terrorists'. So what's their purpose? At this point we're pretty indistinguishable from the so called terrorists. We go to war against countries that haven't attacked us, and we don't abide by the rules that we pledged we would follow all the while lecturing our vastly outgunned opponents on the need to follow these rules of engagement as we pillage their countries. I'm just trying to sum up the absurdity. Self defense is basic, universal and needs no fancy treaties.

Saddam Hussein justified -- to make right -- his invasion of Kuwait by accusing Kuwait of economic warfare against Iraq via Kuwaiti below surface lateral drilling into Iraqi soil.

Care to research how Imperial Japan justified -- to make right -- the invasion of mainland China ?

All unfortunate events, but what do they have to do with me?

People -- whiners -- like you usually do not have the intellectual courage and stamina to properly research the history of the problem, the parties involved, the factors that maybe variable, and the current structure and circumstances that sustains said problem. How could you when you do not even recognize your own contradiction ?

I'd like to think I'm pretty familiar with history and understand the global issues and their context. I just don't think its our job to solve everyone country's problem. This is probably where we divert sharply. Even if I wanted to create a change overseas, remove a despot for example, I certainly wouldn't do it with military force or subversion.

Whiners are best at pointing out the flaws in the people who tries to fix the problem and the methodologies used in trying to fix the problem.

You must be joking. You mean like we fixed the problems in Iraq? Libya? Like how we're fixing the problems in Syria, Ukraine etc? Things would have been much better had we done nothing. Also, could you please explain to me how Saddam Hussein is my problem?

The international order is in anarchy is because not one country is willing to cede sovereignty. Simple as that.

Again, the international order is not in anarchy.

United Nations or not, any country can and have often defied UN consensus and acted in self interests. What you pretentiously admonished is unworkable in the absence of an overriding authority figure to enforce global order.

Countries routinely disobey international law because of self interests. Some can do it with impunity and most cannot. Just highlights how international laws are, at best, useless and at worst hypocritical.

Gosh...How nice...Why did I not think of that before...??? :lol:

Happy to broaden your horizons, give your militarized mindset a little vacation :-):-). Might doesn't always make right.
 
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Are special forces also bound by those terms? What about drone attacks? Or the civilians killed in combat in Afghanistan?

My point is, that this argument is based on very very vague lines, and terrorism as we know it is not defined by a perfectly oolala term in a utopian world as some would have us believe, but as an attack by a Muslim. Any attack by a Muslim on the larger West, it's terrorism.
Are special forces also bound by those terms? What about drone attacks? Or the civilians killed in combat in Afghanistan?

My point is, that this argument is based on very very vague lines, and terrorism as we know it is not defined by a perfectly oolala term in a utopian world as some would have us believe, but as an attack by a Muslim. Any attack by a Muslim on the larger West, it's terrorism.

You do raise a good point. Does the attack on the Army Public School be defined as terrorism or it was a response to Pakistan's military offensive by attacking a military installation?
 
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You do raise a good point. Does the attack on the Army Public School be defined as terrorism or it was a response to Pakistan's military offensive by attacking a military installation?

A school is a military installation?

What sick thinking is that?

Actually, that's pretty pathetic.

You could have said Kamra, Faisal, GHQ, Plice Lines Lahore...but it's a school.

I am shocked TBH.

Maybe that's how pathetic we Pakistanis seem like to you.
 
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A school is a military installation?

What sick thinking is that?

Actually, that's pretty pathetic.

You could have said Kamra, Faisal, GHQ, Plice Lines Lahore...but it's a school.

I am shocked TBH.

Maybe that's how pathetic we Pakistanis seem like to you.

West Point, Air Force Academy, even public schools have their own ROTC, etc. Those are examples. Perhaps they targeted your school in response to the military offensive operations. Did they stated the reason?
 
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West Point, Air Force Academy, even public schools have their own ROTC, etc. Those are examples. Perhaps they targeted your school in response to the military offensive operations. Did they stated the reason?

Are you even in your senses at this point?

Go on google and brush up your knowledge about Army Public School then come and talk.
 
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Are you even in your senses at this point?

Go on google and brush up your knowledge about Army Public School then come and talk.

I don't need to google. I can simply ask you why they attacked it and the reasons for it.
 
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I don't need to google. I can simply ask you why they attacked it and the reasons for it.

Yes you do. You don't even know what APS is and you come here talking about it.

Good day sir!
 
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Well so much for this person to answer thats uncomfortable to him.

So much for the person who calls APS a military installation and thinks ROTC like courses are run there.
 
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