the Call of Ottoman Empire ..

[Timur]

Turks fought, rest did not

Kurds fought with us..

 

[-SINAN-]

Kurds fought with us..

That subject is very controversial bro....

 

[nair]

Dude there is more to the world than waging a comparing war!

Did you understand what i was trying to say here? I doubt....

 

[Timur]

That subject is very controversial bro....

Do you have something interesting to read for me?

 

[Targon]

My great great uncle, who is still alive at our paternal village simply hates Arabs, all of his elder relatives fought in ww1, many at middle east, he has many stories he heard from those who returned alive(most did not). I think its applies to most of the Turkish soldiers who fought at mid east. Dislike to Arabs wasn't a republic propaganda, it was already well established in the society.

 

[-SINAN-]

Do you have something interesting to read for me?

I have to search for it bro....i remember in a tv program. I am not quiet sure if it was Pamukoğlu or not but in Gallipoli campaign,but it has been said that Kurdish casualty was like %0.1 of the total casualty .

 

[-------]

Having had conversations with Arabs on this subject, especially Egyptians, they viewed Ottoman Empire as a stain to their technological and scientific progress and a reason to rebel. I saw no logic to their argument, I mean what technological or scientific progress have the Arab countries made since fall of the Ottoman Empire? Nothing I'm aware of.. But then again, ultimately, one of the other reasons Ottoman Empire fell was because of the superior technology the western powers had, in the Gallipoli campaign Ottomans were still defending Canakale with Medieval Cannons with Marble shots !

Ottoman Empire became corrupt and lazy, just like the great empires that came before it..

 

[Dubious]

Did you understand what i was trying to say here? I doubt....

Yes I understood you thought he was trying to compare the 2....He wasnt hence why I said there is more to the world than comparing....

 

[Irfan Baloch]

Having had conversations with Arabs on this subject, especially Egyptians, they viewed Ottoman Empire as a stain to their technological and scientific progress and a reason to rebel. I saw no logic to their argument, I mean what technological or scientific progress have the Arab countries made since fall of the Ottoman Empire? Nothing I'm aware of.. But then again, ultimately, one of the other reasons Ottoman Empire fell was because of the superior technology the western powers had, in the Gallipoli campaign Ottomans were still defending Canakale with Medieval Cannons with Marble shots !

Ottoman Empire became corrupt and lazy, just like the great empires that came before it..

the kind of tribes the Birts employed and later rewarded with countries were those who's primary profession was piracy and robbery. even in the Lawrance movie their pettiness and savagery is depicted as a matter of fact. for the conspiring Brits, the Turks were too easy to portray as an enemy. even Islam didn't root out Arabian racism till today.

re technology I agree, the western Europe went light years ahead of the rest of the world. although Turkish gunnery and ingenuity was also exemplary but like you said they became complacent and lazy. time is a biatch.

 

[KingMamba]

Yesterday i was Watching a video about the fall of Ottoman empire, and one question that attract my attention was that , the host ask ... " When Last Sultan as a Authenticated Authority call for Jihad Against the British Empire , so no Muslim from West has answer to that call , even if some did so its not that huge amount , but today we see Terrorist Organizations like AQ , ISIS are calling for Global Jihad , which they dont have Authority but still people Specially from West are replying to their calls ... why is that ???


please keep this thread to political but not religious ...

please Tag Member whom you think will have better knowledge about this particular topic ... Specially Turkish Members

@xenon54 @Neptune @Akheilos @Irfan Baloch @Oscar @Jungibaaz @Abu Zolfiqar @Hyperion @KingMamba @SpArK @nair @Falcon29 @Emmie @MastanKhan @Indus Falcon

First list the demographics of Muslims in the west at the time.

 

[Falcon29]

@rockstar08

Well back then, we didn't really have Islamists. There were Arab tribes mostly under Ottoman Empire. @Saif al-Arab knows more than me on makeup of Arab society at that time. The aftermath of European colonization was when Islamists began appearing in Arab world. It was Muslim Brotherhood who made religious calls. Then Arab nationalism came as a result after British withdrawal and it was popular so MB was ignored. After the 70's both of them died away in Arab world. In Iran it began to make comeback in late 70's. Through this period of 80's-late 90's Arabs didn't have any united form of Arab nationalism nor pan-Islamism. All we really had was a powerful Iraq under Saddam Hussein. And some AQ activists in Afghanistan.

Iraq was attacked and Palstinian intifadas didn't yield any results. So people began taking more violent approach. With the Arab spring, everyone was paranoid and wanted to arm themselves. Islamists largely came to power in most of Arab world, both violent and non-violent. But the non-violent was toppled(MB). Leaving AQ/ISIS to be popular. The history is too complicated.

But to address what motivates men today to heed the call of Jihad. It's too complicated, but corruption of governments, powerlessness, political/social situation. Think of Arab world as an car engine barely running on vegatable oil when it supposed to run on gasoline. It's a miracle that the Arab world is held together at this time, at any moment it will completely break down. And the only alternative for change is Islamic governments in the Arab world.

The ottoman empire itself, didn't make sense that non-Arabs would rule over Arab majority. If there were to be an modern empire in the ME today, it would be Arab as they majority. And then it might integrate others.

 

[rockstar08]

My great great uncle, who is still alive at our paternal village simply hates Arabs, all of his elder relatives fought in ww1, many at middle east, he has many stories he heard from those who returned alive(most did not). I think its applies to most of the Turkish soldiers who fought at mid east. Dislike to Arabs wasn't a republic propaganda, it was already well established in the society.

i think they have a legitimate Reason to hate some Arabs

 

[Falcon29]

i think they have a legitimate Reason to hate some Arabs

Well we need to look past any hate if we want to change anything. But we can't ignore geography either. Arabs who are Pan-Islamist don't share secular Turkish views of forming Turkish Empire. Nor Iranian views of forming Persian Empire. To say they stand for Arab Empire, isn't really true. There is call for Islamic Union in ME. And since Arabs are majority and control most land, it makes sense to have language be Arabic. And occupants largely Arab. They know their land as well, and they understand their peoples culture. So it shouldn't upset other Muslims that Arabs are at forefront of struggle in their region, it is because they are majority. If there was a similiar situation in Asia, Arabs wouldn't be complaining that Asian Muslims are at forefront of situation. I think this is what upsets some non-Arab Muslims, they see situation through nationalist nature so they look at it as if Arabs claim struggle is exclusive to them and that only they can form pan-Islamist union. That is true that only Arabs can form it in the ME, because Arab majority has to agree to it. I'm not sure why that upsets some. There is no claim to superiority here, it's geographical/demographical reality.

The reason why Muslims in West have travelled to Syria is because they face heavy media scrutiny of events in muslim world and can't fit into society. This all depends on ones lifestyle, if you're very outgoing and want to fit into social cliques and into institutions it might not work so well as you're minority. It takes time to build foundation for ourselves. What Muslims need to do is relax when media is covering them, it's not as tense as news make it. News priary goal is seeking profit so they will dramatize normal things. There are a lot of hobbies as well one should explore. I always said, it doesn't make sense to join conflict you aren't part of. The people fighting in Iraq/Syria are largely locals who as children grew up in Iraq war and saw events in their country. For them it's something they will die for and they don't have much to lose. For Muslims in West those are nations that are foreign to you and you aren't familiar with everything. Most importantly, getting education in West is much more beneficial than throwing your life away. You can still please God and be succesful in education.

What some Westenr muslims don't get is the nature of these conflicts in ME. They are basically in process of restructuring/reforming/making big changes which sadly is chaotic process which will take time and is responsibility of people there not Western Muslims. And it's still early stages of this process, so it makes no sense to take part in it.

 

[rockstar08]

Well we need to look past any hate if we want to change anything. But we can't ignore geography either. Arabs who are Pan-Islamist don't share secular Turkish views of forming Turkish Empire. Nor Iranian views of forming Persian Empire. To say they stand for Arab Empire, isn't really true. There is call for Islamic Union in ME. And since Arabs are majority and control most land, it makes sense to have language be Arabic. And occupants largely Arab. They know their land as well, and they understand their peoples culture. So it shouldn't upset other Muslims that Arabs are at forefront of struggle in their region, it is because they are majority. If there was a similiar situation in Asia, Arabs wouldn't be complaining that Asian Muslims are at forefront of situation. I think this is what upsets some non-Arab Muslims, they see situation through nationalist nature so they look at it as if Arabs claim struggle is exclusive to them and that only they can form pan-Islamist union. That is true that only Arabs can form it in the ME, because Arab majority has to agree to it. I'm not sure why that upsets some. There is no claim to superiority here, it's geographical/demographical reality.

Accepting a non Arab as Khalifa is always like a pill of stone for Arabs , After the Death of Prophet , there were Disputes and voices to bring someone from the linage from the Prophet Household , but i remember that Hazart Ali R.A has replied in best way , that Prophet came with a Divine message , he was a Prophet not a King , so its not necessary that After him , his son or brother will take charge ... but my point is even the Islam has not let the Arabs completely free from their Arrogance ..and this is what mark the downfall of the Arab, after the Guided one ear was over ...
Secular or not , there was a Body which was holding the Empire together , what happen to Muslims , are we in better situation ? after the downfall of Last Empire ? look at ME , and than think what if we Muslims have a Empire things would have much different ..

Ask yourself this one Question , today South Asian ( non Arab Muslims ) makes a huge % of Muslims around the world , but will the Arabs ever accept a Khalifa from the Pakistan , India , Bangladesh , Indonesia , Malaysia or other countries ?

 

[Falcon29]

Accepting a non Arab as Khalifa is always like a pill of stone for Arabs , After the Death of Prophet , there were Disputes and voices to bring someone from the linage from the Prophet Household , but i remember that Hazart Ali R.A has replied in best way , that Prophet came with a Divine message , he was a Prophet not a King , so its not necessary that After him , his son or brother will take charge ... but my point is even the Islam has not let the Arabs completely free from their Arrogance ..and this is what mark the downfall of the Arab, after the Guided one ear was over ...
Secular or not , there was a Body which was holding the Empire together , what happen to Muslims , are we in better situation ? after the downfall of Last Empire ? look at ME , and than think what if we Muslims have a Empire things would have much different ..

It's simple, majority is needed for Caliphate to function. Otherwise it doesn't work as a system. It's not related to arrogance. Ottoman Caliphate downfall was a result of many reasons. Biggest reason being it wasn't compatible with modernizing world. This is why British Empire fell soon after, and why colonialism came to an end. Having non-Arabs control Arab majority region doesn't work. This is why when Arabs launched campaign against Sind, they left afterwards. And Asian tribes still largely had power until dispute later broke out. Today in Asia most are Asians, this is same reason why in ME even though there was Turkish adminstration, population largely remained Arab. Not everything is about Islam, it's about logic. Nor is about arrogance. You may think some Arabs are racist, that's fine. But it doesn't relate to this subject.

If you ask Muslims in Asia, their situation isn't bad. Muslims in Pakistan, Indonesia, Malaysia have devolping and largely stable nations(with exception of Pakistan). Arabs however have a big mess due to post colonial period which is even made worse by ethnic/sectarian divide of Saudi/Sunnis vs Iran/Shias. Plus Israeli advantage in the region militarily/politically. It's no easy task to deal with Iran/Israel/Shias. Right now Sunni Arabs are stuck between the three, and only insurgency can solve it. There will be no devolpment in Arab world until they eliminate these threats and form political transition afterwards. Their problem is they're doing poor job on military front because largely the ones who willing to take these steps are considerd extreme and don't recieve any arms.

There will no longer be any Caliphate, unless the whole region destablizes and militias take over. If that happens, the situation will be scary and difficult. Probably lead to war with West in the region. Which means its still a long way and is a difficult process. Caliphate also won't work with leader of militia. So if there ever is one again, it will be agreed upon leader not person who appoints himself. And according to some scholars that will never happen until era of Mahdi.

Don't bother yourself about Arab arrogance, there is arrogance amongst some Gulf Arabs, Jordanians and Egyptians. But it's an internal problem and that arrogance is directed towards other Arabs. It can only change if Islamists take over, which will happen but needs time.