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The Battle for Bajaur - PA seizes control

my dear friend,

i dont like whats happening in fata. i am a pakistani and frankly this is not a good situation for us. when the govt has lost control in the area (for that matter any area) for any reason at all, the security forces have to be called-in. unfortunately in our case the only force which can re-instate the writ of the state is the PA. the FC and the Levies are a courageous lot but their training is not suited for CI. even PA units are not trained in CI but they are slowly getting there. the PA is better equipped. God knows they need more!

now if the govt. withdraws its security apparatus from FATA without establishing law and order, i am afraid all hell is going to break lose (drugs, gun running, smuggling and militancy). how can we make peace deals with these people who are nothing short of "barbaric" in their behaviour.

its good to be emotional but we also must face the ground realities. its mostly of our own making and only we can get out of this quagmire and it wont happen overnight!

Your analysis is correct as far as PA capability to control these tribes.

We have also seen Russia and now US already used latest and leathal weapons(desi cutter ,white phospuros bombs) but all failed .

Let analyse what are their strengths


1. Self sufficient in light weapons and amunation.
2.Highly skilled for gurrilla war fare
3.Strong network.
4.Well aware of terren.
5.Highly motivated and united.
6.Capable to continue war for many years.
7.Freely moving on both side of boarder


In addition to above they are earning billion of USD against harion and locally manufactured weapon sales .


If you still think they can be defeated by PA is totally impossible ,We have only option to bring them on table and make deal beneficiary for both parties.
 
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The PA realizes the need for locals participating in this fight - that is why the GoP and PA has been emphasizing the need for capacity building in the FC, and resisting, to some extent, the demands from the West on reorienting the PA towards a COIN force. Obviously distrust of India and the need to maintain a strong deterrent in the East plays a strong role in this resistance as well.

Given limited funds for training/capacity building, the GoP needs to spend them on the force (FC) that factors into our long term plans for stabilizing FATA and maintaining the writ of the State. In the long term only a force comprised of locals will be acceptable, much as US long term plans in Afghanistan have to revolve around an ANA comprised of Afghans.

The Pakistani military will likely continue to play a supporting role for the FC and it will continue to play a strong role in FATA in the short to medium term, until the FC is more capable of mounting and sustaining these operations on its own, but the quicker the majority of the responsibility is shifted to the FC, the better.
 
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"...the GoP needs to spend them on the force (FC) that factors into our long term plans for stabilizing FATA and maintaining the writ of the State."

I personally hope that the F.C. goes away altogether. Do you have an F.C. in the east facing India? This is an organization that by it's tribal/ethnic composition is incapable of conducting actions and rendering decisions based upon nat'l interests. IMV all of your national borders must be guarded by your army in the long-term and no other organization.

"In the long term only a force comprised of locals will be acceptable, much as US long term plans in Afghanistan have to revolve around an ANA comprised of Afghans."

In the long-term trade and prosperity to the region should promote internal movement of Pakistani citizens to employment opportunities. Your nation could stand greater internal mobility to break down tribal and ethnic boundaries. FATA foremost.

I wish to see the tribal system of governance dismantled in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. This system is no different than the "boss" system we saw in America at the turn of the 20th Century among urban migrants from Europe. It's exploitive, inherently corrupt, and mutes the voice and initiatives of individuals.

Nothing good has come from it and is a tradition that completely stands in the way of progress. Let the police matters of FATA be settled by FATA Provincial police when it loses it's federally administered character. Let the nat'l army perform it's intended purpose and guard your Afghan borders as well as those facing India.

Tear down the tribal structure of FATA and make it a province and it's people full citizens. Until this debate is undertaken in recognition of your current futility you'll simply be building a better mouse-trap.

Long-term, the political landscape of FATA must be thoroughly reshaped into something unrecognizable now. That can only occur by the same happening in Islamabad, security in the west, and serious efforts to reconstruct and incentivize the public.

Short-term, the P.A. must put it's indelible stamp upon western Pakistan-all of it, Baluchistan, FATAland, and NWFP. It cannot tolerate uneasy standoffs in places like SWAT but, instead, must seek out and CRUSH militants where they're found.

Until you aggressively reduce the presence of these militants there can be no practical reconstruction or development work done. Experts won't come and projects finished will be likely destroyed. Pointless.

If your ambition is for civil improvement and as soon as possible then you'll have to WREST control of these areas from men who appear bent on making that land theirs. Serious work cannot be done otherwise. We see that plainly in Afghanistan as well. Our troop reinforcement is clear recognition that gains lost are wasted opportunities by putting the cart before the horse. Reconstruction logically follows on the heels of security and is therefore paramount as a pre-condition.

This may take forever but it doesn't mean that the work can be eased into. Matters are moving in the wrong direction, particularly in Pakistan, very rapidly now and you've really got to go to war in your west. Not just your nat'l government but your military (read COAS) must take up this message to your nation's citizens and do so post haste and loudly.

FATA must be re-defined for Pakistan to survive IMHO.
 
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FATA must be re-defined for Pakistan to survive IMHO.

Long term - yes. But 'integration' into the Pakistani political system and 'normalization' will be extremely hard to do without subduing the Taliban insurgency. Changing local attitudes towards tradition and customs should not be attempted by force, otherwise we play into the hands of the insurgents and given them one more propaganda stick to beat us with, and one more 'cause' (defending Pakhtun Customs and traditions) to recruit for.

Using the FC to fight the insurgency and maintain law and order takes away a major 'outsiders killing Pashtun' headache.

The FC can be retrained to become a strong COIN force with the correct attention and investment - they have shown commitment, if not skill and resources, in many situations they have been deployed in. The PA and PAF will likely maintain a presence through CAS and artillery support.

The FC are a Pakistani force, I disagree that utilizing them primarily indicates some sort of abdication of sovereignty by the GoP. Once the West settles down and is integrated, perhaps we can deploy the FC in the East as well.
 
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And to prove my point about the FC being a 'committed and trainable' force:

60 militants killed in Mohmand tribal area: FC

Dawn Reports
Tuesday, 20 Jan, 2009 | 09:30 PM PST |

GHALANAI: 60 militants including several key local commanders, were killed in the ongoing Mohmand operation in the last 24 hours, according to a press release issued by the Frontier Corps headquarter in Peshawar late Tuesday night.

....Officials said the Frontier Corps and Mohmand Rifles, backed by jets, helicopter gunships, tanks and artillery, pounded suspected militant hideouts in five villages of Lakaro and Pandyali tehsils, stronghold of Tehrik-i-Taliban Pakistan Mohmand chapter.
DAWN.COM | NWFP | 60 militants killed in Mohmand tribal area: FC
 
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I personally hope that the F.C. goes away altogether. Do you have an F.C. in the east facing India?

Your knowledge in this is inadequate and your view inappropriate. The FC can't 'go away altogether' anymore than the Punjab/Sindh Rangers or the Balochistan FC can. Contrary to your (no doubt heavily Indian influenced) belief, the Pakistan Army is not tasked with the guarding of Pakistan's international borders. It would be the Rangers and Frontier Core who are expected to burden that responsibility (like the BSF are in India). Obviously the infiltration of the tribal territories constituted a bit of an exception in that regard given the nature of the terrain, of the enemy involved and the international political ramifications. However the Army, as to be expected, is tasked, trained and orientated in large scale offensive and defensive operations (as is the case with all countries residing in a sufficiently 'rough' neighborhoods).

This is an organization that by it's tribal/ethnic composition is incapable of conducting actions and rendering decisions based upon nat'l interests.

Perhaps you didn't know this but the FC (and Rangers) are lead by officers from the regular Pakistani Army. It is considered an unglamorous posting by some officers no doubt, but I reckon that bit has been subject to change given the increasing prospects of combat and the gradual upgrading of the FC's capabilities, in which I hope the US has genuinely played a significant role and will continue to do so. Tasking the regular Pakistan Army to counterinsurgency/guarding/holding operations will fatally erode our combat effectiveness by undermining our doctrines that focus on massed mobility and maneuverability involving armor and artillery support in-conjunction with air assets, among other things. The Indian Army discovered the effects of prolonged exposure and commitment to Anti-Guerrilla campaigns at their cost, we don’t intend on repeating their mistakes because least of all we can’t afford it. I suppose elements from Northern Command that specialize in mountain warfare, manning posts and patrolling along the LoC, etc can be put to effective use in the FATA region without too much capability compromise, but then like someone pointed most of them are Non-Sunnis from Gilgit and surrounding areas that would constitute more of these ethnic/religious problems. Most of our Army Corps are stationed in their peace time locations, which in turn are based on respective population densities in the provinces, locations of strategic import and proximity to potential threat patterns. These won’t change.

Your tendency to so casually dismiss the FC and their credentials is based more on uneducated stereotyping than on ground realities. For instance while you feel that the FC are incapable of conducting actions and rendering decisions based upon nat'l interests, you forget that they have sustained more casualties fighting in the WoT campaign than the Americans. So while you may feel free to ridicule their combat effectiveness and/or attrition rate vice versa your own no doubt formidably trained and equipped airborne troops, or mountain divisions or marines, it’s going to be much harder for you to dispute their loyalty or allegiance to Pakistan or to their officers. Deficiencies in the FC's performance can be rectified by induction of new and specialized training procedures and adequate equipment and weapons. That would be the appropriate course of action, and there is no denying we have a long way to go since let alone the FC, even the PA are obliged to ride around in ambush country on essentially-civilian unarmored pickup trucks while our American counterparts have constricted a vast chunk of their logistics, resupply and deployment operations to helicopters and the like. Forgive my little digression, but the point is we have a long way to go and a lot of potential yet to explore before getting ahead of ourselves and making sweeping crude and clumsy suggestions.

The FC is an old institution, it has served the British well and has been serving Pakistan well. They were adequate in keeping a lid on things in FATA before all this US invasion business sent everything to hell. We need them now to provide a local face and aspect to our military and development endeavors there and we’ll need them in the long term when things are settled and the inevitable PA withdrawal comes about.

I agree with your suggestion about FATA having to be reintegrated back into Pakistan proper. There should be no room for tribes and chaotically semi-autonomous regions in civilized nation. But this is a mammoth task and would be best envisioned in the long run. Furthermore it would be naïve to suggest that nation-integration can be achieve only through the deployment of corps and divisions worth of combat troops from half way across the country. That might be most counter-productive in more ways than just one. What we need now is for troops stationed there, especially local ones, to be given the sufficient resources, equipment and inspiration i.e. armored transports, armored fighting vehicles, transport helicopters, light weight artillery, infantry kits, better logistics and training, etc. There are severe inadequacies in all of the mentioned. They need to be tackled first. Presently we barely have resources for proper reconstruction of districts we occupy, we will hardly have the required funds available if we just double or triple the number of our combat troops and subsequent deployment and maintenance costs. There are severe social, ethnic, religious, political complications involved which most of us won’t understand, ignoring these would be optimism to the point of stupidity. Age old tribal customs and mentality won’t just get wished away by optimistic investment plans, anymore than they’d disappear because a brigade HQ was deployed in a tribe-man’s town. The PA will be instrumental in bringing the tribal people into the fold no doubt, as will the FC. The Army has been trying long enough though, even before 9/11 but we’ve always run into problems. But America’s involvement on the other side and subsequent conduct produced a political dispensation violently hostile to any plan the PA might have had of bringing FATA into a more nationalist disposition.

Militants need to be crushed, a lot more needs to be done. Halt in callous and undeniably unpopular American drone attacks, acceleration in the arms and equipment procurement pipe line must be encouraged for the PA/FC, more cooperation and more trust, more proactive and tenacious military campaigns on both sides (and in Pakistan’s case transfer of the appropriate capabilities enhancing equipment), better tackling of ideological, political obstacles in Pakistan (for which we would require room to maneuver which can be accomplished by an halt to overt American interference in Pakistani affairs)…to name but a few. But asking us to re-home our Corps or scrap the FC is something even General Petraeus won’t have the audacity to do.
 
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"Your knowledge in this is inadequate and your view inappropriate."

Maybe.

I've read your retorts. If reports are true about SWAT, you've run out of any time to continue business as usual. When teachers won't report to schools nor students, intimidation has now challenged the state. Men are now being asked to defend that state and are declining to do so against these militants. Note the elite police commandos in SWAT refusing to report to their newly-formed platoons. Evidently, among other things they fear adequate army backup.

I can only imagine the debates in your barracks among the troops based upon what I see here at def.pk.

You may construe what follows from that as you've so much more insight here but I wouldn't insist on working the edges. Training and weapons are nice but you've nearly lost the information war and that's the strategic key terrain here.

Time to engage that nat'l debate about the nature of the threat and the ambitions of your government for Baluchistan, FATA, and NWFP and how you intend to pay for it.
 
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Men are now being asked to defend that state and are declining to do so against these militants.

You know just as well as I do that this is an unfair and inaccurate generalization. There is much work to be done, particularly in relation to Swat and I've no doubt we're in the process of evolving further strategies and tactics designed to encourage the safety of our boys and the accomplishment of their mission. And least we are not given to vulnerabilities anymore that lead to blunders like the ambushes, slaughtering, kidnappings and executions of dozens of FC men like was the case before the initiation of the Swat operations. Refusal of the Police commandos is indeed disturbing but it’s nothing that can’t be rectified without additional regular brigades to spoon feed them. The media has a way of projecting things out of proportion and context, you just wait and see in a few weeks.
 
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US reaches deal on new Afghan supply routes

ISLAMABAD: The United States has secured extra supply routes for foreign forces fighting in Afghanistan, top US Central Command chief General David Petraeus said on Tuesday. The routes involve Central Asian states and Russia. The move follows spectacular attacks on depots in and around Peshawar. Petraeus said he had visited Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan and Kyrgyzstan to reach the agreements. “There have been agreements reached and there are transit lines now and transit agreements for commercial goods and services in particular that include several countries in the Central Asian states and also Russia,” he said. agencies

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan
 
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brothers, its all going to change. in 7 hours time the GWBush era comes to a thundering halt and the "Man of Change" BHObama is going to be crowned 44th president of the USofA.

Without going into a long diatribe of politics, Obama came in with the cry of Change!
Change is like small coins, weigh down the pocked and tend to be useless for big items.

We have a Change merchant here, does lost of little empty political things.

Change!!:lol:

Don’t hold your breath.
 
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"You know just as well as I do that this is an unfair and inaccurate generalization."

No. It's a highly specific instance of refusing to perform their designated duties. Is it inaccurate? You tell me that this didn't happen but we've an article here which says otherwise.

There are others suggesting the same. So too you here-

"Refusal of the Police commandos is indeed disturbing..."

That's 800 men or half the allotted police force for SWAT.

"The media has a way of projecting things out of proportion and context, you just wait and see in a few weeks."

Glad to read that you've got it all under control.

Whatever you say.:lol:
 
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S-2,

Its an unfair and inaccurate generalization when you extend it to the FC, when it is operating as a well equipped and supported force.

We have seen a number of times, both in Bajaur and in Mohmand now, that the FC has performed admirably when properly equipped and supported. And they fought it out in Loisam as well, though hopelessly outnumbered and unsupported, instead of just giving in.

Secondment of leaders/officers from the PA, so long as they are committed and disciplined, may have a strong role to play here as well, in leading by example and passing on those values to those serving under them.

That should be the route to go and going by the recent statements by both PM Gillani and the Generals, and Adm Mullen, the FC will indeed be providing the 'boots on the ground' in FATA.

The quote from Mullen on the FC, from the Newsweek piece:

"He's assigned a leader to the Frontier Corps who is a Pashtun and who has done things for the Frontier Corps in the last two or three months that nobody would have imagined."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/179149
 
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I assume you mean Tariq Khan.

"Secondment of leaders/officers from the PA, so long as they are committed and disciplined, may have a strong role to play here as well, in leading by example and passing on those values to those serving under them."

Similar to an advisor's road. Could be a dead-end for your career. Could also signal that you're at a dead-end. The correct top-down emphasis is needed to see assignment here as not just honorable but leading edge stuff. Most critical will be with junior officers who've the most to give and lose with their careers by these assignments.
 
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No. It's a highly specific instance of refusing to perform their designated duties.

Exactly so. It is specific. You're seeking to generalize it. So the point you tried to make was unfair and inaccurate.

That's 800 men or half the allotted police force for SWAT

You're moaning about irregularities in a detachment of 800 men out of the 150,000 plus we have fighting this war. If out of these 150,000, say 0.5% go on sick leave will you say you're whole damn army is incapable of doing their job? Don't take things out of proportion and context. We’ve got a lot of folks around hoping to *female dog* about every little thing, I’d expect better from you.

Glad to read that you've got it all under control.

Just because no one took to your ‘let’s scrap the FC' idea, doesn’t mean you get to indulge in pointless sweeping rhetoric.:disagree: Like I said, just wait a few weeks.
 
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Most critical will be with junior officers who've the most to give and lose with their careers by these assignments.

Like I said, this aspect has undergone somewhat of a positive change recently in my experience. Technically speaking ofcourse a posting at the FC means nothing of concrete consequence, but you know how it is with these things. Your career advancement prospects depend on a variety of factors, not least being your own potential.
 
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