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The Battle for Bajaur - PA seizes control

Regarding the second point, i asked because the attack started at 2am in the night.
What is the night fighting capability of PAF, especially in close ground support?
Are such squadrons assigned to this area currently which can conduct these operations at night?
Also is FC using night fighting equipment in their operations?
Would appreciate the insight.

the Zarrar's sqdn based at Kamra is nite-strike capable with FLIR. the F-16s are capable of nite-ops (ATLIS, LANTRIN) along with the A-5s (but they may lack precision strike capability).
 
Close support using LANTIRN pod? launching what? LGB's, AGM-65?
Do you think Mohmand Agency is Gaza? Just look at the Terrain.
That's the sure shot way of fratricide of Pakistani Troops like happened near Asmar in Bajaur.
The only solution is to withdraw Pakistan Army form the border and let the US do its own dirty job.
 
Close support using LANTIRN pod? launching what? LGB's, AGM-65?
Do you think Mohmand Agency is Gaza? Just look at the Terrain.
That's the sure shot way of fratricide of Pakistani Troops like happened near Asmar in Bajaur.
The only solution is to withdraw Pakistan Army form the border and let the US do its own dirty job.

So you are suggesting we let the US into Bajaur, and then Waziristan, and then the NWFP ...
 
Let them Try their Luck ..

Their very presence in the region is just because of the slavish support of Pakistan Government.
 
Let them Try their Luck ..

Their very presence in the region is just because of the slavish support of Pakistan Government.

Its not about whether they succeed or fail in FATA, its about what happens while they are trying.

What will happen is likley worse than what happened in Afghanistan, since in FATA they woudl be considered hostile by all of the population, and Taliban or not, people will line up to be part of the insurgency. Any opposition to US presence would also be bolstered by recruits from the rest of Pakistan.

US presence in FATA will therefore turn into an extremely bloody and devastating war, and the just as the Duran serves to offer protection of some sort to groups evading either NATO or the PA, so will first the settled areas of the NWFP and the rest of Pakistan adopt that role, and the militants and the fight will be drawn deeper into Pakistan.

As I said before, some might be happy standing atop the ruins of a nation such as Afghanistan and claiming 'victory', because the Americans tired and left, I am not.

I would rather see Pakistan grow in strength, and fulfill her responsibilities by ensuring, as much is possible, that her territory is not used for cross border attacks. If the Afghans have a beef with the Americans, they need to deal with it themselves, and not involve Pakistan.

Within Pakistan, the Taliban militias need to disarm and disband. The government or the Tribal elder (raising Laskar's - for now) should be the only two entities allowed to raise an armed force in those areas.
 
"Let them Try their Luck .."

You continue to aborgate your sovereignty and responsibility for FATA by not fighting back.

"Their very presence in the region is just because of the slavish support of Pakistan Government."

Lay off the rhetoric juice. Your nation is at war with itself because for too long you've neglected FATA. It's no longer yours judging by your own comments. Proof enough. From FATA a war has been waged on the people and legitimate gov't of Afghanistan, the U.N., and it's 41 ISAF partners.

That's not acceptable to anybody but the likes of you.

The U.S. won't wage war in FATA. We'll simply do our best to guard the borders more rigorously. Instead, America will hold Islamabad culpable and exert it's leverage there where it'll be more usefully felt.

We prefer a better mailing address than "ANY PASHTU IN FATA".
 
"Let them Try their Luck .."

You continue to aborgate your sovereignty and responsibility for FATA by not fighting back.

"Their very presence in the region is just because of the slavish support of Pakistan Government."

Lay off the rhetoric juice. Your nation is at war with itself because for too long you've neglected FATA. It's no longer yours judging by your own comments. Proof enough. From FATA a war has been waged on the people and legitimate gov't of Afghanistan, the U.N., and it's 41 ISAF partners.

That's not acceptable to anybody but the likes of you.

The U.S. won't wage war in FATA. We'll simply do our best to guard the borders more rigorously. Instead, America will hold Islamabad culpable and exert it's leverage there where it'll be more usefully felt.

We prefer a better mailing address than "ANY PASHTU IN FATA".

Fact is ISAF failed to guard borders ,which is practically impossible even ISAF triple their forces . The reason is ISAF forces affraid to move out of their bunkers but only with support of gunships.
 
I do not want Pakistan to be bending over to the USA.
We have to be a sovereign state and need to have pride as one and of course ensure our sovereignty with our borders.

However having no go areas which is a weapons hot zone in Pakistan simply wont do...this is not the vision of our country.
Killing our own people in suicide bombings and then claiming it is for Allah...that's the worst kind of excuse i can hear from a Muslim who thinks he is serving Islam, what has the innocent killing gained?
Islam is already the fastest growing religion.

We are the followers of Muhammad (Peace be Upon Him) who treated every member of the society with love and respect and brought peace to the very heart of a hell hole called Arabia.
Pulling out an AK-47 and putting the fear of Allah into others is not what i call Islam and it shall gain nothing in terms of improving the life of the people.

USA is not on a holy mission and i clearly disagree with many of their actions, however that does not mean that i do not take care of my own backyard so that USA has a tougher time.
USA will serve its own interest and its damn time our people start realizing that their interest lies in saving Pakistan from another snake raising its head.
If we do not crush this it shall bring only destruction and death in its wake.

The fall of soviet union ushered in a new era of war in Afghanistan due to so many diverse elements being present and each with their own agenda.
Now If let us say we let these barbarians do what they please and even USA leaves them alone, who will be their next target?

Already they are supporting suicide attacks killing innocent humans in Pakistan and we are supposed to sympathize with them just because we feel we do not like USA?
That is quite a lame excuse and will have even worst consequences than the current mess we are in.

For those who are not well versed in history let me give example of Hazrat Omar RA who was the second caliph and was most strict with law and order.
There was no free roaming of Muslims across the Islamic domains even in his administration, every person was strictly checked and Muslims were not allowed to settle in new areas without his permission.
Do not assume that being Muslims anyone can stay in Pakistan, for law and order to prevail these things have to be through a proper channel which is the state.
Therefore the very presence of thousands of foreign militants and even wanted people from other provinces of Pakistan demand an action of most serious nature.

Riaz Basra, a well known miscreant who killed hundreds of Shias in Pakistan was also hiding in such no go areas under the protection of Taliban, when he was killed by security forces thousands of people attended his funeral and hailed him a local hero; i was expecting that no one would want to attend funeral of a mass murderer but thousands of people means there is a real big corruption in the hearts and minds of the people and the name of Islam was utterly abused in this regards!
3 decades ago Shia Sunni conflicts were unheard of in Pakistan.
Now due to Wahabi teaching courtesy our Arab brothers during Afghan War, Pakistan which was an excellent Islamic state (religious tolerance) became a battlefield with so many Lashkars and religious organizations fighting a War in the very midst of the population.
Taliban brutally slaughtered Shia Muslims in Afghanistan as well.
These are the kind of teaching the best Taliban implemented and now the ones which are in Pakistan are even sanctioning attacks on civilians ( a thing which the Afghan Taliban never did) which is as low as it can get.

I am a Sunni Muslim but i have read enough of Islam to know that petty differences are of no consequence and difference of opinion was there in Islam in early days as well, however difference of opinion did not warrant death as long as it was within the Islamic principles.
Now we have reached a point that there is difference in small rituals and still the associated Muslims claim to be a unique sect.
Pakistan was a country where we had tolerance which is essential for Islam.
With Taliban there is no tolerance and an utter lack of knowledge (religious and modern) complemented with brutal implementation of their interpretation in everything.

If despite this people still want them in power then the following phrase comes to my mind


Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it!
 
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Also if I may point out there are 2 rock solid principles in Islam that I feel are relevant here:

1) If an Islamic state or group has a deal/agreement/accord/understanding with a non-Muslim state or country. That treaty MUST be honored even if the said non-Muslim entity transgress against Muslims elsewhere (but doesn’t break the treaty with you).

2) Islam gives the authority of declaring/conducting martial Jihad only to the establishment or army of the state. I.e. you can’t declare violent Jihad against anyone (least of all a fellow Muslims) because that guy owes you money, messed with your girl or is not sufficiently ‘Islamic’ in your opinion. The STATE and respective institutions are given the sole authority to maintain peace and justice.

These rules are designed to circumvent chaos and maintain peace and stability to the last acceptable degree.

If only people like Qazi Hussain could be found talking about this as opposed to how ‘evil’ the US is (where incidentally 2 of his sons have studied and where 1 is a citizen) and that alliances with them are ‘unholy’.
 
Dear AgNoStIc MuSliM

With Due respect, “”US presence in FATA will therefore turn into an extremely bloody and devastating war”” is based on a faulty premise.

Geography, Logistics and geopolitical considerations put some severe intrinsic limits on the ability of the US to swallow more than it’s already done. Eight (8) long years in a unstable tectonic zone has been possible only through our Virtually Free-of-Charge assumption of the ownership of a war that had little or no relevance to Pakistan. It has been possible because Gen Musharraf agreed to work for rather paltry wages for his own benefit and a limited coterie of Generals.

Russia, China, Iran are also having a degree of comfort with the present state of affairs; the US pretends to fight a war on terror and its allies pretend to be helping with its “noble” efforts to rid the mankind of the “menace” of Extremism.

Once the US is made to bear the True Cost of its adventure it will soon declare victory and extricate itself out of the situation a la Iraq. The US really has no appetite for spending serious money on Afghanistan as the potential returns are tiny, and uncertain.

The biggest danger to Pakistan is the expected outreach of the Obama administration to the “Pushtoon” factor in the near future. Obama administration is likely to weigh the Zalmay Khalilzad’s pro-India pro-Iran option; vs a an all encompassing pro-Pushtoon moderate Taliban supported option. Both will be bad for Pakistan.
 
Dear S-2:

“”Your nation is at war with itself because for too long you've neglected FATA””.
VERY WELL SAID ….. Pakistan is indeed at War with itself, thanks to the slavish pro-US policies of its Gen. Musharraf. Our present Corrupt political leaders too are fighting America’s war virtually Free-of-Charge.

It is Absurd, rather comic to drag the poor UN and the “41 ISAF partners” into the equation. They are all in a bubble chamber, echoing whatever comes from Washington.

The US seems to be inclined to work out a deal with Iran on similar lines as done in Iraq. Such deal will permanently institutionalize the pro-India Northern Alliance hold on power and further weaken Pakistan.

"ANY PASHTU IN FATA" … Thanks for the light moments amidst serious discussions.
 
Dear All-Green:

Your article is Fantastic, both in its depth and coverage. I take this opportunity to highlight certain aspects of a rather complex situation.

Back in 2001 most people in FATA or Afghanistan had no love lost for Taliban, with the possible exception of certain clans in Kandahar, Urzgan, Helmand, Paktika and Ningrahar. At that time they had no power base in FATA either. Old affiliations with Jehadi groups were kept on the back burner.

Their phenomenal rise in FATA and Afghanistan is primarily attributed to the savage, barbaric US action against Pushtoons in general. Gen. Muharraf then poured more fuel on the fire, and used Pakistan Army against ethnic Pushtoons in FATA with a missionary zeal; fueled in part because of his alleged links to groups of his ethnicity. Taliban emerged as a rallying point for resistance, a focal point to get even against brutality and indiscriminate killings.

Talibans problems with our honored Shia brothers have some historical roots. As we all know Taliban were founded in 1994 with American money, under the patronage of Mohtarama Benazir Bhutto (may Allah rest her soul in peace) and under the direct command of Gen. Naseerullah Babar. Dick Cheney, Condoleeza Rice, Zalmay Khalilzad were all UNICOL officials (subsidiary of Halliburton Corp). In 1995 following the fall of Kabul to Taliban, President Hamid Karzai (the then Deputy Foreign Minister in Hekmatyar Government) fled Kabul in a Taxi to Pakistan and joined UNICOL as a Purchasing Officer!.

The US apparently funded the formation of Taliban for the following reasons:
1. To give a run for their money to the ungrateful Mujahideen Government of Ahmad Shah Masood, and Hekmatyar.
2. To create a second front against Iran in the North.
3. Assure the security of Turkemistan Gas pipeline to Gwadar.

Taliban rise was swift, they got CIA funded Ukrainian company to rebuild their Air Force; got a Consulate in Queens, NY paid for by the State Department (operational till June 2001!)

Taliban did give a run for its money to Iran for a while, but fell foul with Ms Raben Rafael the then US Ambassador for her imperious and impatient attitude. The US had no problem with the extremist ways of Taliban, but wanted an actual insurgency against Iran. The US responded by blocking the Cash flow; which propelled Taliban straight into the waiting lap of AQ.

During the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, Iran supported the US wholeheartedly, providing access, air space and apprehending Taliban / AlQaida. Formerly beleaguered Iran supported groups in central Afghanistan massacred Taliban, with active involvement of Iranian Special forces operating in the zone with US collusion.

At this time the Sia-Sunna tensions remain, but they are gradually subsiding. The FATA Taliban have demonstrated a different attitude and have worked to lower the tensions; even those fueled by our Intel agencies in Kurram.
 
Dear Karskin:

1) Your analogy to the “Sulah Hudeibiyah” is not applicable to Pakistan’s current situation. Pakistan State and the Army is directly involved in war against its own Muslim citizens, even though it is under a quasi-agreement with the USA. By the way, Pakistan Government has washed its hands from its Islamic identity several years ago, and has embraced true boot secular values.
2) YES, absolutely right. Martial Jihad should only be declared by the State. But please note that Hazrat Imam Hussein sacrificed his life to uphold Islamic values against the then “legitimate” Islamic government of Yazeed. He was also told by the people of Kufa that rebellion against the writ of an Islamic State is not right. But he nevertheless listened to the voice of his conscience.

Qazi Hussein or Altaf Hussein are all entitled to their worthy views. Pakistan’s political leadership does not suffer the butchery that the people of FATA and Swat suffer. Incidentally having a US citizen US educated son does not matter in the context of Qazi’s views on US operations on Afghanistan or FATA. There are some “ASLI TEH WADDA” White Americans who have similar visions about US involvement in wars abroad; that does not make them less or more “patriotic”.
 
Pakistan State and the Army is directly involved in war against its own Muslim citizens, even though it is under a quasi-agreement with the USA.

These so called Pakistani 'citizens' (and that too not all of them) are breaking Rule Number 1. The situation we face today is not exactly like 'Sulah Hudeibiyah'. It is a milder version but obviously the Sulah does establish a precedent as far as these aspects of Islamic statehood go. As I'm sure you know, the Sulah had called for the immediate extradition of Muslims seeking asylum in the new born Islamic state back to the Kuffar (where they would most likely be tortured and put to death) and the Holy Prophet (PBUH) agreed because he in all his wisdom knew that allegiance to Islam must not be used as an excuse to bypass stately agreements. In Pakistan's case however, all the Americans have asked for in exchange of an alliance is that we keep our territory from being utilized to make violence against them. It is the honorable thing to do since (despite what else the US has done in the world) the vast majority of Pakistanis don't want war with the US.

These 'citizens' can choose to live in peace in Pakistan, or they can choose to leave if they insist on war with the US. Both these choices have been open for a very long time and probably still are. However they not only choose to stay and exploit the safety our sovereignty can provide them against the wishes of the majority and the state, they make brutal war on those who rightly seek to bring them to account and furthermore they impose themselves and their wishes on us and our people?

You obviously have nothing but contempt for the Pakistani state Anwar2 because you feel they are not 'Islamic' enough for your standards. But why then, may I ask, are you so hell bent on making an exception for these people, this scum of the Muslim World when they have no basis in terms of credibility, legitimacy, authority as far as Islamic or International Law is concerned?

I'll answer that question for you. Because you have no standards. Pakistani Army does have the legitimacy and authority to dispose of these people, nay they have the responsibility. Islam gives them that. NO ONE has immunity to Law just because they are Muslim or claim to be. If you were really for Islam, if you'd really wish for an Islamic agenda in Pakistan where would you start? You'd start by tackling this abomination, this stain to the face of every Muslim. For where, I ask you, is any thing that TTP or Al-Qaeda done even remotely Islamic? If you'd care for an Islamic Pakistan, thats where you or Qazi Hussain would start from. You'd speak against these people just as venomously as you do against the PA or the US. But you don't. Because you're a hypocrite, your standards are hypocritical. Pakistan is not Islamic enough for you? Well I say you're not Islamic enough for Pakistan. Something else dictates your agenda and that of people like Qazi, something much more primitive, and it is certainly not Islam.

But please note that Hazrat Imam Hussein sacrificed his life to uphold Islamic values against the then “legitimate” Islamic government of Yazeed.

I am disgusted with you. How dare you even think about comparing Hazrat Imam Hussein to the likes of Betullah Mehsud or Ghazi of Lal Masjhid. Is this what you think? Is this how lowly your view is of our great Islamic figures? Despite what Hazrat Imam Hussein was and despite what Yazeed was, the Imam still did not try to declare Jihad or instigate rebellion against him. Because the Imam in his wisdom knew Yazeed would get what he deserved in time. The people who you support are more akin to those who murdered Hazrat Usman, no they are even worse. They thrive in chaos and confusion, in faithlessness and hate. They are not, I repeat NOT characters of Hazrat Imram Hussein's calibre. And history will not think of them as such, but history will curse us if we allow them free reign and allow them to dictate and decide the course of our children's lives and or country's future.

Incidentally having a US citizen US educated son does not matter in the context of Qazi’s views on US operations on Afghanistan or FATA.

But they are very much relevant to the Qazi view of the west and of American influence in particular. If you'd ask him, he'd tell you that alliance, understanding, respect with a power like the US is wrong, immoral and un-Islamic. Because the US has the blood of Muslims on it's hands. He will tell you those Muslims who still think they can be reasoned with, trusted, listened to are disillusioned or cowardly or not Muslims. He says an alliance with the US in immoral, period. But should we not ask him about his son who pays taxes to the very US government which is the enemy of God in his view? Stately relationships with them are unacceptable according to him so therefore Pakistan in doing so is cursed, ridiculed, called labeled un-Islamic. But what about his sons who went there seeking a better life? A better education? In a 'society full of evil'? Isn't that a bit odd to say the least? Yes, more than that it is hypocritical. People like the Qazi only play at the people's fear, the poor uneducated people, telling them what they want to hear. Islam or any ideal or belief has nothing to do with it, only his popularity and power is of consequence. So what if the nation's prestige suffers, so what if he is encouraging/justifying very much un-Islamic, un-Islamicly-authorized or justified violence? He is primitive, so are his ideals, and he is NOT Islamic. These hypocrites have been the end of Islam the way it was meant to be. My country is suffering and aye my religion is suffering because of people like him. People like you Anwar2.
 
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