TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Indos]

Oh ... f. that s. Here we go again..
Let's remember the chronological order in the MMU project:


15 December 2010 Defense Industry Executive Board (SSIK) -
Start of contract negotiations with TAI for TFX conceptual Design Project.

Conceptual Design Period 2011 - 2014
29 September 2011 SSIK: Signing of the TFX conceptual design contract. Determination of requirements and conceptualization phase. The state contribution is about $ 20 million.

2012 - Undersecretary of defense industry ( now SSB ) agreed with SAAB for Technical Support and Assistance Provider (TSAP).

September 2013 SSIK - Different design alternatives for TFX identified; the operational concept was defined and the general requirements were shaped.

2014 - Conceptual design phase completed with a delay of 4 months.

2014 - Request for proposal document sent to Engine companies. (EuroJet, General Electric, Pratt & Whitney, Rosoboronexport and Snecma)

2015 - A Request for proposal document for the 'Foreign Cooperation Company' within the scope of preparations for the Preliminary Design Period has been released. (Saab, BAE Systems, Airbus, CASIC, Aermacchi and Sierra Nevada Corporation)

05 August 2016 - Signing of the Articles of Association with contractors and official implementation of the project.

January 28, 2017 - Head of Agreement was signed with BAE Systems within the scope of TF-X Development Programme Engineering Development & Preliminary Design Phase, which covers the design, development, production, test and certification studies of MMU/TFX prototypes. The cooperation came into force in August 2017. The deal's value $ 156 million.

2017 - Engine negotiations started with Rolls Royce.

2017 - Inter-state cooperation agreement was signed, between UK and Turkey. UK Department for International Trade brought an Open General Export License (OGEL) into effect on July 28, 2017.

July 2018 - An agreement was signed between BAE and TAI on risk reduction of project.

2018 - Wind tests started in England. (Turkey's new test site was under construction)

July 1, 2019 - Mock-up exhibited at the Paris Air Show. (The final geometry is complete and system integration will proceed through this geometry.)

March 2018 - New block High Performance Computing System (10.000-core computer) installation completed. (The first of the 3 supercomputers to be installed has become operational.)

April 2018 - Dassault Systemes and TAI sign a cooperation agreement on software support. ( 3DEXPERIENCE platform)

May 2018 - The design phase of the TFX project was included in the Project Based Incentive System by goverment, with approximately $ 1 billion.

2018 - Negotiations with many subsystem manufacturers, (especially Leonardo) started under ToT preconditions.

April 2018 - A preliminary agreement was signed between TAI and ASELSAN for avionics packages of TFX Project , such as indigenous AESA radar, EW suites and electro-optical (IRIST) systems

2018 - Collaboration agreements of technical universities started to be signed. A guest engineer program was prepared. (Today, participation in the guest program has exceeded 1000)

August 2, 2018 - state support of approximately $ 1.2 billion was announced. In addition, VAT refund, tax deduction, interest support will be provided; half of the energy consumption expenditures will be covered by the state state. Within the same scope, the project was legally secured for 15 years.

November 2018 - SSB and TRMOTOR have signed the next generation Indigenous Engine Development Program Framework Agreement for TFX.

November 2018 - General Electric F110-GE engine has been decided to be used in prototypes. (total 7 aircraft)

Phase-1 Stage-2 / 2022 - Completion of preliminary design phase and transition to detail design phase. End of the preliminary design phase.

--------------------------------

2023 - According to the schedule, the Roll-Out Ceremony will be held and ground tests will be started.

2025 - Realization of the first flight.

2028 - Completion of prototype qualification phase - Initiation of Air Force Command tests. Starting the IOC phase for TFX version/block 1.

2031/32 - Beginning of FOC phase

Scheduled Engineering Development & Preliminary Design Phase is expected to cost around US$1.3 Billion and to be followed by 8-year scheduled Critical Design Review and Prototype Production and Qualification Phases, which planned to cost around US$7.3 Billion. At the end of 12-year and US$8.6 Billion expenses seven flying TF-X prototypes will be manufactured for the test, evaluation and qualification purposes. Another US$14 billion is earmarked for the serial production of the TF-X fighters, bringing the total budget for the project to US$20 billion.

8.6 billion USD is quite decent for the development of Stealth plane, KF21/IFX total development cost is about 6.8 billion USD (if any thing goes as plan). So it is quite questionable when Indian AMCA program manager said AMCA program total cost is only 2 billion USD.

Although for KF21/IFX program, total development cost should consider 2011-2012 Desember R&D where the cost burden is shared by ADD Korea and Indonesian participation ( PTDI and ITB). EMD is started in 2015.

DAPA confirms cost adjustments to KF-21 development programme

The overall cost of the engineering and manufacturing development (EMD) phase of the KF-21/IF-X multirole fighter aircraft programme has been adjusted from approximately...

www.janes.com

@MirageBlue your opinion please

 

[Deino]

First block will have stealth shape and advanced radar, dont expect f35 level sensor fusion, TurAF urgently needs stealth body with f16 capabilities, MMU first block is even far beyond that expectation, long range, pretty much advanced GanAesa radar with 3 antennas, then first block will gradually upgrade to upper level,

israel has f35, greeks has rafeal, russia has su57, we are lagging behind, so early blocks are not bad idea.

Oh ... f. that s. Here we go again..
Let's remember the chronological order in the MMU project:

...

Yes but regardless what you and other too posted also so often, yo far I never read an explanation for the points I rose above:

1. why that long break between roll-out and maiden flight (which is unusual in comparison to other similar projects)

2. how do you or TAI think the flight testing phase could be shortened to such a brief period?



Again, these are valid points that need to be at least allowed to be asked and are NO insults!

 

[xbat]

Yes but regardless what you and other too posted also so often, yo far I never read an explanation for the points I rose above:

1. why that long break between roll-out and maiden flight (which is unusual in comparison to other similar projects)

2. how do you or TAI think the flight testing phase could be shortened to such a brief period?



Again, these are valid points that need to be at least allowed to be asked and are NO insults!

man i answered above, TurAF is eager to have them asap,

ruskies had problems with their new engine, we use american f110 engine no need to wait for engine
US had many aircrafts they didnt need unmatured aircrafts so they had a luxury to wait for F22
F35 is multinational project had to finish from a to z, so everybody waited
china had problems with engines too, they are not advanced as much as us and russia so they lagged from original schedule ,

 

[Deino]

man i answered above, TurAF is eager to have them asap,

ruskies had problems with their new engine, we use american f110 engine no need to wait for engine
US had many aircrafts they didnt need unmatured aircrafts so they had a luxury to wait for F22
F35 is multinational project had to finish from a to z, so everybody waited
china had problems with engines too, they are not advanced as much as us and russia so they lagged from original schedule ,

Thanks, and that's all understandable, but you only explained WHAT the TuAF wants, and not how TAI thinks to get it done.

Even with interim engines and regardless how much eagerly the TuAF want to introduce them, a regular flight test phase up to service entry needs still more than 3 years! That's my point. If the schedule would be roll out 2022, maiden flight 2023, flight test phase up to hand over 2029 I would say it is reasonable and realistic, but why 3 years for ground testing (a normally rather short period prior to flight testing) and then such a brief period for flight testing up to hand-over (which in fact usually takes most of the time!)?

It makes no sense.

 

[dBSPL]

8.6 billion USD is quite decent for the development of Stealth plane, KF21/IFX total development cost is about 6.8 billion USD (if any thing goes as plan). So it is quite questionable when Indian AMCA program manager said AMCA program total cost is only 2 billion USD

DAPA confirms cost adjustments to KF-21 development programme

The overall cost of the engineering and manufacturing development (EMD) phase of the KF-21/IF-X multirole fighter aircraft programme has been adjusted from approximately...

www.janes.com

@MirageBlue your opinion please

Yes but Korea certainly spent (or will spend) more to the whole concept, the same will happen with your other examples.. Let me explain over TAI-MMU, the bulk of the work is mostly systems engineering, as the budget here is basically a design and prototype manufacturing/qualification test process. For example, many avionics, weapon systems, communication systems, which will be the basic components of the aircraft, are subsystems that proceed in their own medium, even if these are already parallel to the project.

Also compare the cost of purchasing services and enginering packages... espcially with US normals, could misguides us. Let's add Gripen to your examples, an incredibly successful resource management and a European-sourced(I mean everything is more expensive than the rest of the world) aircraft. Many western equivalent projects launched in the same years had several times the cost (and delay).

Also government subsidies and transfers of funds have not the same bureaucratic structure all over the world...

 

[Kaptan Reis]

Thanks, and that's all understandable, but you only explained WHAT the TuAF wants, and not how TAI thinks to get it done.

Even with interim engines and regardless how much eagerly the TuAF want to introduce them, a regular flight test phase up to service entry needs still more than 3 years! That's my point. If the schedule would be roll out 2022, maiden flight 2023, flight test phase up to hand over 2029 I would say it is reasonable and realistic, but why 3 years for ground testing (a normally rather short period prior to flight testing) and then such a brief period for flight testing up to hand-over (which in fact usually takes most of the time!)?

It makes no sense.

Turkey aims to take the first TF-X out of the hangar in 2023 and fly it in 2025 or 2026., a period of tests on the ground, the following year and in the wind tunnel.
Over the 2 or 3 years there will be several phases of tests, it is also necessary to anticipate the unexpected.
2025 the test phase will be finalized and the aircraft will be able to be operational and start mass production.
3 years as tests, they see wide, they do not work only on this project.

 

[IblinI]

Turkey aims to take the first TF-X out of hanger in 2023 and fly it in 2025 or 2026

2025 the test phase will be finalized and the aircraft will be able to be operational and start mass production.

?

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Milli Muharip Uçak'ın İlk Üretilen Parçaları Sergilendi

Türk Havacılık ve Uzay Sanayii AŞ (TUSAŞ) tarafından geliştirilen Milli Muharip Uçak’a (MMU) ait ilk üretim parçalar ilk kez sergilendi.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[dBSPL]

Hürjet parts manufacturing continues also.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1479150242062905345

 

[merzifonlu]

but why 3 years for ground testing (a normally rather short period prior to flight testing) and then such a brief period for flight testing up to hand-over (which in fact usually takes most of the time!)?

@Deino

They did the same with SOM, Atmaca, Hisar and the (Gokdogan&Bozdogan) air-to-air missile family. It was developed after extensive and very detailed ground tests, with relatively few flight tests. That missiles is currently in mass production.

As far as I understand, they rely on the ground tests experience&technology they have gained from that application.

 

[Deino]

@Deino

They did the same with the (Gokdogan&Bozdogan) air-to-air missile family. It was developed after extensive and very detailed ground tests, with relatively few flight tests.

As far as I understand, they rely on the ground tests experience&technology they have gained from that application.

Ok, that's most interesting and I would love to learn more from this since it would otherwise dramatically shorten the testing phase. However a missile with a more or less simple aerodynamic configuration is surely much simpler in that regard than lets say an as yet untested helicopter, jet trainer or even fifth generation fighter. That's why I'm so much sceptical the same system will fit or could be applied to these more complex types.

Thanks again.

 

[merzifonlu]

Ok, that's most interesting and I would love to learn more from this since it would otherwise dramatically shorten the testing phase. However a missile with a more or less simple aerodynamic configuration is surely much simpler in that regard than lets say an as yet untested helicopter, jet trainer or even fifth generation fighter. That's why I'm so much sceptical the same system will fit or could be applied to these more complex types.

Thanks again.

You are right.

If they apply the same technique for Gökbey Helicopter and Hürjet Jet Trainer projects, which are currently under development, and if the technique is successful as with missiles, the probability of success for TFX will increase as well.

Time will tell everything, we will see together. I am also looking forward to the result.

 

[Deino]

Congrats for this milestone ...

Turkey Kicks Off Prototype Assembly of First National Aircraft

Turkish Aerospace Industries has kicked of the production activities of HÜRJET Advanced Jet Training&Light Attack Aircraft developed with national capabilities.

www.turkishdefencenews.com

HÜRJET'in Malezya yolculuğunda son durum ne?

TUSAŞ tarafından geliştirilen HÜRJET Jet Eğitim ve Hafif Taarruz Uçağı, Malezya'daki yolculuğuna devam ediyor. Malezya, 18 adet uçak tedarik etmeyi planlıyor.

www.savunmasanayist.com

 

[dBSPL]

In a way, Hurjet, as the predecessor of the MMU, aims to shorten some of the processes in the main national fighter aircraft project.

But on a subsystem basis, it will not be as conservative an aircraft as the MMU. There is a training jet planning that will move forward with more international suppliers. This is one of the first factor that made it progress so quickly.

As for the next step of the program after the advanced training jet, we cannot say that the uncertainties have completely disappeared yet. Or at least, there has been no official statement by the company about this yet, as far as i know. We have already read from TAI officials that there are studies on different combatant variants with a naval version, a more powerful engine and even a twin engine, but I think these preliminary studies have not yet been contracted.

TAI cares about the tender for 18 aircraft in Malaysia very much and I'm sure TAI is promised a very serious off-set to Malaysia. Because Hurjet, which is actually TAI's equity project, needs to be successful in sales so that it can move forward.

 

[Deino]

Wow … there are already three Hürjet prototypes under construction (looks at +0:32)