TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Melkor]

However, I wish Turke good luck as I am interested in technological progress regardless.

Looooooooooooool!

 

[xbat]

It is TEI TS1400, not TS1500. Even then is questionable whether the turboshaft engine is actually usable & reliable as it has not even started a field test with an actual application for at least a year nor entered service for several years after mass-production. Also, technologies & engineering involved in F110-grade turbofan engine are much more complex and advanced than a turboshaft engine of output between 1400 shp ~ 1660 shp.

Remember, Turkey also hyped about indigenous tank powerpack, yet it has turned out they did not have any solution. People are right to be skeptical.

https://defence.pk/pdf/attachments/069d861b-6f89-441c-a046-a2ce721ffefd-jpeg.660447/

it is TS1500 anymore, TEI constantly improved the engine and reached 1660 shp max and 1500shp continious power level. TEI manufactured parts are used half of aircrafts on the planet. isnt that reliable enough? and no from tech aspect there is not much difference a turboshaft with a turbofan. Turbofan design a little bit more complex and takes more time to design but basically both of them turbine engines and once you make one of them you can make the other one too.

 

[vas_SAT]

Güne hızlı başlayanlar burada mı? #TUSAŞ https://t.co/u5m4DloTUZ
Any idea?As if they imply something.

 

[SgtGungHo]

https://defence.pk/pdf/attachments/069d861b-6f89-441c-a046-a2ce721ffefd-jpeg.660447/

TEI manufactured parts are used half of aircrafts on the planet. isnt that reliable enough?

Why do you think that makes their gas turbine engines reliable? that's a logical leap. Manufacturing some parts as a subcontractor (which is about 40% owned by a major manufacturer to begin with) is totally different to designing & manufacturing a reliable & usable product. Especially when it is the first kind of their indigenous engine which hasn't finished rigorous field testing nor gone through years of real world experience (so engineers could accumulate data). For instance, TEI may manufacture GE F110 under license today, but the country can't design & manufacture a F110-grade turbofan engine tomorrow.

Turbofan design a little bit more complex and takes more time to design but basically both of them turbine engines

A GE F110-grade turbofan engine with afterburner with output of 32,500 lbf is FAR more complex and advanced than a turboshaft engine with output between 1400 shp ~ 1660 shp.

Given that Turey has 10 years to fly a fighter jet known as TF-X with a pair of turbofan engines that are comparable with GE F110 (not even P&W F135), it is a reasonable assessment that it is highly unlikely that Turkey could achieve that goal within this decade.

Again, it is admirable that Turkey is trying to be technologically independent to established players (although TEI itself is partially owned by GE) and I praise their successes so far, but this claim that Turkey could develop a turbofan engine with output of 29,000+ lbf within this decade is just not convincing,

 

[Melkor]

(which is about 40% owned by a major manufacturer to begin with)

(although TEI itself is partially owned by GE)

 

[BON PLAN]

i hope you guys are aware of TEI TS1500 turboshaft which is top notch its class too, so we basically reached the level satisfied maturity of metallurgy for turbine engines. the rest is a good design and i believe we can do it.

It is only a derivative of the US LHTEC 800 if I remember well.
If true, you are able to study a derivative of an engine, but not ready to study one from the beginning.
The hot core of a jet engine is something very special, needed a strong industrial and research cluster. It doesn't require years to built that, but decades....

 

[BON PLAN]

Get a life dude

oups ! you're right. sorry.

 

[xbat]

It is only a derivative of the US LHTEC 800 if I remember well.

really? why dont you share your source? check your memory next time .

 

[Figaro]

It doesn't require years to built that, but decades....

And bunch and bunch of money ... I cannot emphasize this enough. Look at how Russia's gas turbine industry's progress has grinded to a halt due to a lack of capital (their Type 30 engine isn't even going to be placed into production aircraft until near the end of this decade). Gas turbine technology is ultimately the most difficult sector in all of aviation.

Why do you think that makes their gas turbine engines reliable? that's a logical leap. Manufacturing some parts as a subcontractor (which is about 40% owned by a major manufacturer to begin with) is totally different to designing & manufacturing a reliable & usable product. Especially when it is the first kind of their indigenous engine which hasn't finished rigorous field testing nor gone through years of real world experience (so engineers could accumulate data). For instance, TEI may manufacture GE F110 under license today, but the country can't design & manufacture a F110-grade turbofan engine tomorrow.



A GE F110-grade turbofan engine with afterburner with output of 32,500 lbf is FAR more complex and advanced than a turboshaft engine with output between 1400 shp ~ 1660 shp.

Given that Turey has 10 years to fly a fighter jet known as TF-X with a pair of turbofan engines that are comparable with GE F110 (not even P&W F135), it is a reasonable assessment that it is highly unlikely that Turkey could achieve that goal within this decade.

Again, it is admirable that Turkey is trying to be technologically independent to established players (although TEI itself is partially owned by GE) and I praise their successes so far, but this claim that Turkey could develop a turbofan engine with output of 29,000+ lbf within this decade is just not convincing,

First, we need to see if their domestic turboshafts are going to be mass produced in their T-129s. We can churn out statistics all day long but at the end of the day it is still a long road until these turboshafts are mass produced. For now, the lack of American powerplants is the bottleneck here. And even if they do succeed in this (which is a no small feat), a F-110 grade engine is still very far away. IMO, if the US is not willing to provide engines, Turkey should approach Russia, even if the quality and performance is lacking. The Russians still have a very mature gas turbine industry, albeit the gap is increasing with the West quite a bit.

 

[damm1t]

Man... I really don't feel like write a reply on this new look... Simply irritates me...

 

[Quasar]

Just a kind reminder No offence but some ordinary PDF poster here do not have the caliber to have a reasonable ground of suspicion on the subject. Yet we have the reasonable ground for seeing the obvious fact that TEI has an ongoing engine project with a time table. in short the choice is between''opinions'' of some nobodies in PDF V.S TEI statments

 

[BON PLAN]

really? why dont you share your source? check your memory next time .

TEI: Turkish helicopter programs will be powered with domestic turboshaft engine and gearboxes

Gökbey will make flight with TEI-TS1500 (1500shp) and Alp aviation gearbox next year. It is using LHTEC-800A generating power of 1350 hp. TS-1500 This engine will be integrated on T-629 ITAR free attack helicopters having a weight of 6t compared to T-129 Atak (5t). TEI manager announced...

defence.pk

It is using LHTEC-800A
Is it crystal clear for you my dear ?

 

[xbat]

replacing with another engine doesnt make the new one derivative of old one . are you high or something you moron?

 

[Inspector Spacetime]

It is TEI TS1400, not TS1500. Even then is questionable whether the turboshaft engine is actually usable & reliable as it has not even started a field test with an actual application for at least a year nor entered service for several years after mass-production. Also, technologies & engineering involved in F110-grade turbofan engine are much more complex and advanced than a turboshaft engine of output between 1400 shp ~ 1660 shp.

They either changed the engine's name to TS1500, or they have two models TS1400 and TS1500. Next in the pipeline for TEI is to make TS3000, a 3000 hp engine for 10t helicopters.
Anyway these engine's are not ready to be mass produced as of yet. The engine's will be delivered to TAI this year for flight tests. The engine project is going according to the roadmap.

I agree with you that F110 grade turbofan engine's are much more complex and advanced. That is why Turkey is looking for a techonological partner in this field and negotians are ongoing. SSB president Ismail Demir said that this process for continue for some time to come, especially due to the pandemic.
The problem lies with export rights for these engine's, which is the main point of the negotiations, in order to avoid the problems faced with what is being experienced with T-129 helicopter exports.

I had posted the sources for these in this thread somewhere (I think it was quoting one of your posts) to verify.

Remember, Turkey also hyped about indigenous tank powerpack, yet it has turned out they did not have any solution. People are right to be skeptical.

Hype? What do you mean?
The domestic Altay engine wans't and isn't expected to be ready for a few more years. This was always the case. The first batch of 250 Altay was always supposed to have an imported engine, but that plan didn't come to fruition due to problems with Germany. The tank engine project also suffered a delay because there was supposed to be technical assistance from Austria but Austria blocked it so the engine project had to be reworked. BMC started work on the tank engine somewhere early 2018, the project is expected to last about 5 or 6 years. By this estimate the engine will be ready in 2023/24, assuming there aren't any more delays. BMC is getting technical assistance from an English firm for a 1000hp engine but whether this assistance extends to the 1500hp engine and other details of this are unknown to me.
Tumosan also says it is working on various engine's, it's has won a contract with FNSS to supply armored vehicles with engine's (530hp),Nuri Albayrak of Tumosan said that they are commited to increase their capabilities in order to develop 750, 1000 and 1500 hp engine but didn't give a specific timeframe for this: https://www.milliyet.com.tr/galeri/yuzde-yuz-yerli-ihtiyaclari-karsilayacak-6109636/5

To be honest, the domestic engine isn't the problem for Altay. It is to find a stop gap solution and procuring imported engine's to start serial production.

You are skeptical about these projects. That's fine I am not trying to convince you otherwise. Just trying to get some information out there for you and the neutral reader.

 

[SgtGungHo]

TEI: Turkish helicopter programs will be powered with domestic turboshaft engine and gearboxes

Gökbey will make flight with TEI-TS1500 (1500shp) and Alp aviation gearbox next year. It is using LHTEC-800A generating power of 1350 hp. TS-1500 This engine will be integrated on T-629 ITAR free attack helicopters having a weight of 6t compared to T-129 Atak (5t). TEI manager announced...

defence.pk

It is using LHTEC-800A
Is it crystal clear for you my dear ?

What I understand is that our Turkish friends are trying to do what French did with their Dassault Rafale. The French government flew a technology demonstrator with a pair of F404, because they couldn't develop Safran/Snecma M88 on time. I am sure you wouldn't say that M88 is a copy of F404 just because French replaced F404 with M88 for their Rafale prototype. Of course, I understand that it was one of reasons why Rafale had become a very costly project and also why it was delayed at least for a decade. Even then, French had years of experience in both gas-turbine engines and designing & manufacturing of fighter jets. Hence, I must assume that Turkey which has relatively less experience in both departments than French of 1980's~2000's would face considerably more challenges for their TF-X project.