TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[MirageBlue]

How about AMCA, has the basic design frizzed ?

KF21 design is relatively the same as the design in December 2012 (developed by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace). KAI and LM enter the program in middle of 2016.

AMCA's design has crossed PDR and is supposed to get the Critical Design Review (CDR) by the end of 2022. Which means that the design has been frozen for quite some time.

AMCA critical design review by end of year

Whether the AMCA passed the CDR or not, I'm not sure of since ADA (which is the agency responsible for the design) hasn't put out any news on that yet. We'll get to know in February 2023, when the Aero India show is scheduled to happen.

This is the wind tunnel model that was sent to CALSPAN earlier this year. The design is for all intents and purposes not going to be different from this.

 

[hyperman]

Extremely strange..the forward fuselage and radome shape of the mockup that was shown till very recently looks NOTHING like the forward fuselage and radome of the prototype in the picture..

Not sure how that happened, given it takes a LOT of time and effort to finalize the Outer Mould Line (OML) of fighters, involving Wind Tunnel testing, CFD and other studies. This now very strongly resembles the KF-21 Boramae and F-35 radome and front fuselage shape.

If Im not mistaken the mockup is from back when people thought the engine was going to be the Eurojet or something in its class, then they announced that it would use the GE F110s, so a very different class of engines and maybe they went and changed the other things regarding the aircraft as well..

 

[Indos]

If Im not mistaken the mockup is from back when people thought the engine was going to be the Eurojet or something in its class, then they announced that it would use the GE F110s, so a very different class of engines and maybe they went and changed the other things regarding the aircraft as well..

Turkey has already had experience in GE F110 from their TEI. If they want to make domestic engine, they are likely to mimic that engine. I never recall Turkey wanting Eurojet as this is in the class of F414. KF21 uses F414. During early design KFX/IFX has already been set to use either Eurojet or F414 since both engine dont show large different in term of lenght, diameter, weight, and power. The same class of engine.

Then the tender is set around 2014 - 2015 to determine whether KFX/IFX is going to go European route or American route. The basic design has already been determined to use C103 as basis which has already been work on by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace during technology development phase.

Indonesia like European route and they even want to invest 20% if they are selected, not to mention KFX/IFX will be European fighters as well, broading the market for the plane. But Korean chooses American, maybe because Hanwa Korea has got deep connection with GE and Korean also has more reliance to USA in term of defense. They have already choosen American when Korea Aerospace select LM as partner before the tender started. The other Korean company that partner with European doesn have much experience in building real plane, they does build Stealth wingman drone.

In short. Those fighter developers are not stupid. They should have already had 2 different source of engine with similar characteristic in mind before starting their basic design and technology development phase. So if one source doesnt want to supply engine, there will be other option with similar characteristic that is likely to supply engines for the program, so they dont need to revolutionize the basic design that has already been work on

 

[Ali_Baba]

Clearer image of that huge bird!

View attachment 907791

Thanks - the build quality of the panels looks perfect - quite an achievement for a first prototype. The EOTS on the nose is interesting - better from a stealth perspective than that are the Su-57.

 

[hyperman]

Turkey has already had experience in GE F110 from their TEI. If they want to make domestic engine, they are likely to mimic that engine. I never recall Turkey wanting Eurojet as this is in the class of F414. KF21 uses F414. During early design KFX/IFX has already been set to use either Eurojet or F414 since both engine dont show large different in term of lenght, diameter, weight, and power. The same class of engine.

Then the tender is set around 2014 - 2015 to determine whether KFX/IFX is going to go European route or American route. The basic design has already been determined to use C103 as basis which has already been work on by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace during technology development phase.

Indonesia like European route and they even want to invest 20% if they are selected, not to mention KFX/IFX will be European fighters as well, broading the market for the plane. But Korean chooses American, maybe because Hanwa Korea has got deep connection with GE and Korean also has more reliance to USA in term of defense. They have already choosen American when Korea Aerospace select LM as partner before the tender started. The other Korean company that partner with European doesn have much experience in building real plane, they does build Stealth wingman drone.

In short. Those fighter developers are not stupid. They should have already had 2 different source of engine with similar characteristic in mind before starting their basic design and technology development phase. So if one source doesnt want to supply engine, there will be other option with similar characteristic that is likely to supply engines for the program, so they dont need to revolutionize the basic design that has already been work on

TAI TF-X - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There was a memorandum of understanding signed with eurojet and rollsroyce, this was before the f-35 embargo or the german embargo on MTU products for Altay, after those incidents, the program changed, where the new plan was to use the F110, before that the TF-X was in the same class as the KFX program where they were going to use the same size engine as the GE 414/ EurojetEJ200. After the embargo they started getting worried about not being able to get the EJ200 b/c germany builds a portion of the engine and has veto power, as well as maybe having the not being able to acquire the GE414 on a new contract. Turkey already license builds the GE F100 with TEI being the contractor for the F-16, the decision was made to consolidate the project around an engine that there is already deep familiarity with. So it changed the program and now the idea seems to be to use the F100 as an interim, and then recreate/build an equivalent drop in replacement domestically in Turkey which I'm assuming is going to be similar to the F100 in performance, and if possible work with RollsRoyce to build a next generation engine. RollsRoyce currently does not have an engine in the F100 class, but is involved with building the powerplant for the tempest, which should be in the same class, I'm speculating but it should be a similar to the F136 that lost out to the Pratt and Whitney engine for the f-35..

 

[Foinikas]

Clearer image of that huge bird!

View attachment 907791

I was checking this earlier:

Î ÏÏÏη εικÏνα αÏÏ Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ Î¼Î±ÏηÏÎ¹ÎºÏ TF-X ή ακÏμη Îνα ÏÏÏÏλαÏμα; - Î ÏήÏη

ÎÏκλοÏÏÏηÏε αÏÏ Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ site Airturkhaber.com η ÏαÏαÏÎ¬Î½Ï ÎµÎ¹ÎºÏνα ÏÏÎ¿Ï ÏÏοÏίθεÏαι ÏαίνεÏαι για ÏÏÏÏη ÏοÏά Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ Î¼Î±ÏηÏÎ¹ÎºÏ TF-X Ïε ÏάÏη ÏÎµÎ»Î¹ÎºÎ®Ï ÏÏναÏμολÏγηÏηÏ. Îεν μÏοÏοÏμε να εÏιβεβαιÏÏοÏμε Ïο Ïι...

www.ptisidiastima.com

Let me google translate it


The above image was released by the Turkish site Airturkhaber.com, where it is supposed to show for the first time the Turkish fighter TF-X in the final assembly phase. We cannot confirm what it looks like but in our opinion it must be a dummy and not the normal aircraft.

Initially the landing legs are fake (no relation to the robustness and complexity of the legs of a 10+ ton fighter) while the craft is actually supported on tripods. Also, on the floor under the wings are weapon dummies that will be carried. This reinforces our impression that what we are seeing is for display to visitors and not the normal aircraft.

But then - as each mock-up also reveals elements of the final design - located on the upper part of the nose, in front of the cowling, is a pyramidal structure that is apparently an infrared passive tracking system (IRST), something that all modern fighters have.

Even the nose is clearly shorter and with a larger diameter than the prototypes that Turkish Aerospace had shown at international exhibitions recently, with a smaller forward slope. The air ducts are much more squared off than before, and small-span, assuming they each have to feed a 10-ton thrust engine. Here we have a clear difference from the images that were published in November of the first prototype in the assembly phase. So here we are almost certain that the new picture is not realistic. Which is enhanced by the wings being too thin to carry fuel, while the vertical tails are squared off rather than swept back as we'd expect from a supersonic design.

Overall, the impression we get -always with reservation- from the image is that it must be some kind of an older model to show to visitors. However, the prototype according to the Turkish commitments will be revealed complete next March.

 

[Celestyal]

Why would anyone steal any design of a front fuselage and radome? What is so special about it that others haven't done so far?

And who would steal their design? KAI already was way ahead of TAI in terms of design of KF-21, Dassault/Airbus most definitely won't be bothering to steal any TAI design for SCAF and nor is BAe with their Tempest. Who is left to steal? China? India? They're the only 2 other nations with active 5th gen fighter development programs.

Almost all fighter designs are influenced by some design but then need a LOT of work before they get finalized. Just looking at a picture of mockup no one is going to copy it. Putting out a mockup that doesn't resemble the real prototype is strange to say the least.

Anyway full marks to TAI for having assembled the first prototype so soon. Has definitely come as a surprise.

TAI has their policies. Sometimes it is related with secret embargoes... TAI, unlike most claim, is a pretty secretive and shrewdy company.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Turkey has already had experience in GE F110 from their TEI. If they want to make domestic engine, they are likely to mimic that engine. I never recall Turkey wanting Eurojet as this is in the class of F414. KF21 uses F414. During early design KFX/IFX has already been set to use either Eurojet or F414 since both engine dont show large different in term of lenght, diameter, weight, and power. The same class of engine.

Then the tender is set around 2014 - 2015 to determine whether KFX/IFX is going to go European route or American route. The basic design has already been determined to use C103 as basis which has already been work on by ADD Korea and Indonesian Aerospace during technology development phase.

Indonesia like European route and they even want to invest 20% if they are selected, not to mention KFX/IFX will be European fighters as well, broading the market for the plane. But Korean chooses American, maybe because Hanwa Korea has got deep connection with GE and Korean also has more reliance to USA in term of defense. They have already choosen American when Korea Aerospace select LM as partner before the tender started. The other Korean company that partner with European doesn have much experience in building real plane, they does build Stealth wingman drone.

In short. Those fighter developers are not stupid. They should have already had 2 different source of engine with similar characteristic in mind before starting their basic design and technology development phase. So if one source doesnt want to supply engine, there will be other option with similar characteristic that is likely to supply engines for the program, so they dont need to revolutionize the basic design that has already been work on

TEI, whose 46% share belong to GE, CEO has confirmed its military turbo-fan engines emulate those from GE (aka US)....

 

[Celestyal]

I was checking this earlier:

Î ÏÏÏη εικÏνα αÏÏ Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ Î¼Î±ÏηÏÎ¹ÎºÏ TF-X ή ακÏμη Îνα ÏÏÏÏλαÏμα; - Î ÏήÏη

ÎÏκλοÏÏÏηÏε αÏÏ Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ site Airturkhaber.com η ÏαÏαÏÎ¬Î½Ï ÎµÎ¹ÎºÏνα ÏÏÎ¿Ï ÏÏοÏίθεÏαι ÏαίνεÏαι για ÏÏÏÏη ÏοÏά Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ Î¼Î±ÏηÏÎ¹ÎºÏ TF-X Ïε ÏάÏη ÏÎµÎ»Î¹ÎºÎ®Ï ÏÏναÏμολÏγηÏηÏ. Îεν μÏοÏοÏμε να εÏιβεβαιÏÏοÏμε Ïο Ïι...

www.ptisidiastima.com

Let me google translate it


The above image was released by the Turkish site Airturkhaber.com, where it is supposed to show for the first time the Turkish fighter TF-X in the final assembly phase. We cannot confirm what it looks like but in our opinion it must be a dummy and not the normal aircraft.

Initially the landing legs are fake (no relation to the robustness and complexity of the legs of a 10+ ton fighter) while the craft is actually supported on tripods. Also, on the floor under the wings are weapon dummies that will be carried. This reinforces our impression that what we are seeing is for display to visitors and not the normal aircraft.

But then - as each mock-up also reveals elements of the final design - located on the upper part of the nose, in front of the cowling, is a pyramidal structure that is apparently an infrared passive tracking system (IRST), something that all modern fighters have.

Even the nose is clearly shorter and with a larger diameter than the prototypes that Turkish Aerospace had shown at international exhibitions recently, with a smaller forward slope. The air ducts are much more squared off than before, and small-span, assuming they each have to feed a 10-ton thrust engine. Here we have a clear difference from the images that were published in November of the first prototype in the assembly phase. So here we are almost certain that the new picture is not realistic. Which is enhanced by the wings being too thin to carry fuel, while the vertical tails are squared off rather than swept back as we'd expect from a supersonic design.

Overall, the impression we get -always with reservation- from the image is that it must be some kind of an older model to show to visitors. However, the prototype according to the Turkish commitments will be revealed complete next March.

That's GTU-0 and her landing gears are most likely real. So that's that. The rest of the article is also absolute bollocks. I cringed so many times.

 

[Foinikas]

That's GTU-0 and her landing gears are most likely real. So that's that. The rest of the article is also absolute bollocks. I cringed so many times.

Don't cringe. Let's see it fly.

 

[dBSPL]

The MMU landing gear is jointly developed and produced by TAAC, a joint venture between TAI and Altinay, and Italy's Managhi Aeronautica. TAAC is the main supplier, while Managhi Aeronautica provides engineering support. These companies are also suppliers to global aviation giants in their respective fields. However, once again, a so-called expert, this time based on an upscaled version of a 900 pixel photo, is providing an expert report to a project in which approximately 3-4K engineers and dozens of companies, from BAE to TAI, are involved directly or at the design support level. I used to laugh at these things, but now they are beyond laughable.

 

[hyperman]

I was checking this earlier:

Î ÏÏÏη εικÏνα αÏÏ Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ Î¼Î±ÏηÏÎ¹ÎºÏ TF-X ή ακÏμη Îνα ÏÏÏÏλαÏμα; - Î ÏήÏη

ÎÏκλοÏÏÏηÏε αÏÏ Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ site Airturkhaber.com η ÏαÏαÏÎ¬Î½Ï ÎµÎ¹ÎºÏνα ÏÏÎ¿Ï ÏÏοÏίθεÏαι ÏαίνεÏαι για ÏÏÏÏη ÏοÏά Ïο ÏοÏÏÎºÎ¹ÎºÏ Î¼Î±ÏηÏÎ¹ÎºÏ TF-X Ïε ÏάÏη ÏÎµÎ»Î¹ÎºÎ®Ï ÏÏναÏμολÏγηÏηÏ. Îεν μÏοÏοÏμε να εÏιβεβαιÏÏοÏμε Ïο Ïι...

www.ptisidiastima.com

Let me google translate it


The above image was released by the Turkish site Airturkhaber.com, where it is supposed to show for the first time the Turkish fighter TF-X in the final assembly phase. We cannot confirm what it looks like but in our opinion it must be a dummy and not the normal aircraft.

Initially the landing legs are fake (no relation to the robustness and complexity of the legs of a 10+ ton fighter) while the craft is actually supported on tripods. Also, on the floor under the wings are weapon dummies that will be carried. This reinforces our impression that what we are seeing is for display to visitors and not the normal aircraft.

But then - as each mock-up also reveals elements of the final design - located on the upper part of the nose, in front of the cowling, is a pyramidal structure that is apparently an infrared passive tracking system (IRST), something that all modern fighters have.

Even the nose is clearly shorter and with a larger diameter than the prototypes that Turkish Aerospace had shown at international exhibitions recently, with a smaller forward slope. The air ducts are much more squared off than before, and small-span, assuming they each have to feed a 10-ton thrust engine. Here we have a clear difference from the images that were published in November of the first prototype in the assembly phase. So here we are almost certain that the new picture is not realistic. Which is enhanced by the wings being too thin to carry fuel, while the vertical tails are squared off rather than swept back as we'd expect from a supersonic design.

Overall, the impression we get -always with reservation- from the image is that it must be some kind of an older model to show to visitors. However, the prototype according to the Turkish commitments will be revealed complete next March.

Sounds like butthurt cope to me. lol all these guys become aeronautical experts off blog posts.

 

[Foinikas]

Sounds like butthurt cope to me. lol all these guys become aeronautical experts off blog posts.

So you don't see anything strange in the picture,mr.Expert?

 

[Celestyal]

Don't cringe. Let's see it fly.

Now that's perfectly reasonable. However the Greek article got EVERY SINGLE THING wrong. Like literally... Gotta invite some TAI engineers in here. No need for a comedy movie night they might as well read this. I think I've got every right in this universe to be cringed by this nonsense

So you don't see anything strange in the picture,mr.Expert?

What's strange with the picture?

 

[Foinikas]

Now that's perfectly reasonable. However the Greek article got EVERY SINGLE THING wrong. Like literally... Gotta invite some TAI engineers in here. No need for a comedy movie night they might as well read this. I think I've got every right in this universe to be cringed by this nonsense

Ah so you too,see nothing wrong with the picture? Everything is ok?