TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[Deino]

Chengdu J-20 had it's first flight at 11. January 2011 and it was handovered to military at 9. March 2017 so why do you think other shuldn't be able to do it similarly and why do you think Russians are a valid reference? Why don't you just wait and see what'll happen.

Since any other country currently building a fifth generation type has vastly more experience in designing, developing, building and even testing fighter aircraft of different classes and generations before. So Russia is indeed a valid example especially when even they fail to get their fighter operational, why do you think Turkey should??

IMO it is pure arrogance, simple fan-boy-like bragging to assume they will get that done without any experience before (in fact Turkey did not develop any comparable fourth generation type alone, they have NO engine built on their own so far) and now you try to tell this all would be possible in a shorter time any other country succeed??

That's always typical: Blaming others for missing faith or being biased, while none of the valid arguments are justified or explained! Typical bragging; nothing more.

 

[TheMightyBender]

Since any other country currently building a fifth generation type has vastly more experience in designing, developing, building and even testing fighter aircraft of different classes and generations before. So Russia is indeed a valid example especially when even they fail to get their fighter operational, why do you think Turkey should??

IMO it is pure arrogance, simple fan-boy-like bragging to assume they will get that done without any experience before (in fact Turkey did not develop any comparable fourth generation type alone, they have NO engine built on their own so far) and now you try to tell this all would be possible in a shorter time any other country succeed??

That's always typical: Blaming others for missing faith or being biased, while none of the valid arguments are justified or explained! Typical bragging; nothing more.

I think there is no greater arrogance than thinking everyone is dumb but you.

And i think trying to estimate the timeline of a fighter based on another fighter is plain dumb. Because no two projects are the same. There are a gazillion factors affecting it. One of the reasons for the delay in Su-57 is, for example, a lack of political will for it. Russia is not in urgent need of 5th gen fighters because her existing fleet is doing the job pretty well, then why spend billions on it when you are facing economic difficulties.

The Rafale took 15 years to go from first flight to introduction and France is highly experienced in fighter design, but JF-17 took 4 years eventhough China had limited experience in this area and Pakistan none.

As for your question;
The timeline of first flight in 2025 and FOC in 2030 for the TFX is not based on wikipedia information of Su-57. It is based on precise estimation of highly qualified project managers and professionals at TAI. I seriously hope you dont think the aircraft engineers at TAI dont know how long it took the Russians or the Americans to design fighters. TAI is the sole, and the most reliable source of information about anything regarding the TFX. If they say TFX will fly in 2025, TFX will fly in 2025.

 

[Deino]

I think there is no greater arrogance than thinking everyone is dumb but you.

And i think trying to estimate the timeline of a fighter based on another fighter is plain dumb. Because no two projects are the same. There are a gazillion factors affecting it. One of the reasons for the delay in Su-57 is, for example, a lack of political will for it. Russia is not in urgent need of 5th gen fighters because her existing fleet is doing the job pretty well, then why spend billions on it when you are facing economic difficulties.

The Rafale took 15 years to go from first flight to introduction and France is highly experienced in fighter design, but JF-17 took 4 years eventhough China had limited experience in this area and Pakistan none.

As for your question;
The timeline of first flight in 2025 and FOC in 2030 for the TFX is not based on wikipedia information of Su-57. It is based on precise estimation of highly qualified project managers and professionals at TAI. I seriously hope you dont think the aircraft engineers at TAI dont know how long it took the Russians or the Americans to design fighters. TAI is the sole, and the most reliable source of information about anything regarding the TFX. If they say TFX will fly in 2025, TFX will fly in 2025.

In parts I agree with You, but at least it is a rough basis for a valid calculation and given the lack of experience, the background - both political, economical and technical - I think anyone who claims, Turkey will manage what others did not in a much shorter time has to argue or at least back up these claims instead of bashing others as unreliable or opposing the Turkish government; to turn down everything negative as being from Gulen is actually a stupid and lame one.

Therefore again - and here you mix something - Turkish report do not claim to fly a prototype in 2025 but already in 2023 and given that the design is not finalized, the wind-tunnel isn't even ready, ... I won't hold my breath.
As such, only since they say so to believe it will be is naive ... did You ever check how often others (HAL for example or some Russians) claimed it will be?

Oh well my friend @Khagan1923 ... again the same stupid comments from a fan boy: Bragging, dismissing any arguments as biased and counterattacking my country. Not sure if this will help to get the TFX out of the hangar any day!?

By the way, I see my own country's military and political situation quite well with a lot of concerns... but this again is irrelevant to the TFX. Only since I cannot run 100m in under 10 seconds make you run faster only since you claim anything unrealistic.

 

[Borg]

Since any other country currently building a fifth generation type has vastly more experience in designing, developing, building and even testing fighter aircraft of different classes and generations before. So Russia is indeed a valid example especially when even they fail to get their fighter operational, why do you think Turkey should??

IMO it is pure arrogance, simple fan-boy-like bragging to assume they will get that done without any experience before (in fact Turkey did not develop any comparable fourth generation type alone, they have NO engine built on their own so far) and now you try to tell this all would be possible in a shorter time any other country succeed??

That's always typical: Blaming others for missing faith or being biased, while none of the valid arguments are justified or explained! Typical bragging; nothing more.

Since any other country currently building a fifth generation type has vastly more experience in designing, developing, building and even testing fighter aircraft of different classes and generations before. So Russia is indeed a valid example especially when even they fail to get their fighter operational, why do you think Turkey should??

IMO it is pure arrogance, simple fan-boy-like bragging to assume they will get that done without any experience before (in fact Turkey did not develop any comparable fourth generation type alone, they have NO engine built on their own so far) and now you try to tell this all would be possible in a shorter time any other country succeed??

That's always typical: Blaming others for missing faith or being biased, while none of the valid arguments are justified or explained! Typical bragging; nothing more.

Let me help you with a explanation that your opinion is yours and you have right on it, but I don't care about.
Most important is that Turkey's developement, economic, diplomatic, militarly etc is going forward without even noticing your existence so feel free to spread your "expertise" based on your fantasies as much as you can, who cares.
I'm wondering, in general, how is it possible that so many people are so sure that their own fantasies, without any insider informations about those classified plans and dev. levels on all those projects, could be relevant for anybody?

@TheMightyBender very fine answer, I couldn't write it better. Go TR!

 

[Deino]

Let me help you with a explanation that your opinion is yours and you have right on it, but I don't care about.
Most important is that Turkey's developement, economic, diplomatic, militarly etc is going forward without even noticing your existence so feel free to spread your "expertise" based on your fantasies as much as you can, who cares.
I'm wondering, in general, how is it possible that so many people are so sure that their own fantasies, without any insider informations about those classified plans and dev. levels on all those projects, could be relevant for anybody?

@TheMightyBender very fine answer, I couldn't write it better. Go TR!

Again, only accusations and no arguments HOW they will do this!?
Anyway lets wait and see ... who's then ashamed after 2023, 2024 and even 2025 passed by without anything happening.
If it will fly until then, I'll promise you an open public excuse and admit my "stupidity", you are so sure about, but I hope You'll the the same if nothing happens.

 

[Glass]

 

[Mithridates]

Just a question ; Just a Refit a F-16 body to stealth body very hard than makeing a 5 th gen fighter from zero ?

That isnt be like F-35 stealth level. İf we reduce rcs of f-16 less than 100 km detectable , we have 100+ km ranged aim-120c-7 and kgk series, som etc. we can make fire and forget when undetectable.

we can make him underwing shaped little internal weaponbays like that ;

And also we can paint him ram and make a fix for reduce engine iir sight. Already we are producing mid section of f-35. We can resize f-35 design or our single engined tfx design.

With stealth body and Özgür project avionics suit it would be very great stop gap fighter for us.

Even İran can change designs a Fighters and fly with him we can make a good prototype. Ok F-15 Silent Eagle wasnt be a good project but his due for his price when compared f-35 and base f-15 already have more rcs than F-16

Other Design options for f-16

it is not easy to mess around with a fighter jet shape pal. first generation of saeqeh had an unusual air inlet design to reduce frontal RCS but the inlet design caused interruption in air flow to engine in some specific speed so at the end they used original F-5 inlet.

similar thing happened to Brits when they tried to change the F-4 engine which required a bigger inlet and that reduced the range of that plane. even US F-15SE did not work out.
also for an stealth fighter you should have internal weapon bay. if you try to do that with f-16, either you should relocate internal fuel tanks to wings or add another separate weapon bay to sides of fuselage (F-15SE) or under the wings (J-20). with all these improvements you would get an f-16 which is barely stealth in some angles.
the point is designing an stealth fighter is easier than improving older generations to have stealth characteristics.

 

[Borg]

Again, only accusations and no arguments HOW they will do this!?
Anyway lets wait and see ... who's then ashamed after 2023, 2024 and even 2025 passed by without anything happening.
If it will fly until then, I'll promise you an open public excuse and admit my "stupidity", you are so sure about, but I hope You'll the the same if nothing happens.

"Accusations"? Where exactly, which word describes mentioned accusations? What a poor choice to divert from own baseles political resentments toward TR and it's institutions. Let me help you once again, I don't care for your opinion, time will show the people about development at those intressting projects not your factless claims.

 

[Rogue1]

My opinion on the matter is that in the 50's 60's and 70's the US, USSR and UK came up with so many different types of aircraft and prototypes and there was so much real innovation and the last 40 years at least this has slowed down world wide. Is it because we have reached a peak in aircraft technology and performance? I don't think this is the case. It is Bureaucracy is the western world that is the problem. Programs and any sort of project are taking a lot longer and are much more expensive than they are envisaged. It's not because of knowhow or technology. Eurofighter program is just one example.

And in Russian, the problem was that at the end of soviet union they had no money to invest in continuing programs. They probably didn't produce new engineers to the same standard and ten or more years later they did not have the right talent in place when they wanted to restart the programs. So they had access to existing 80's tech but they didn't have the serious talent to innovate or take those existing platforms forward. They are just reinventing the Soviet wheels.

Now china doesn't have the bureaucracy problem, but they have a bad mentality in other areas. They are in a mode of copy and paste and aspire to western standard so they are not currently innovating. As long as you are playing catch up you will never be ahead. You need to innovate!

Now we come to Turkey. Turkey doesn't currently have a bureaucracy rot. They are growing and expanding and learning. They also have good educational institutions and programs in place that will continue to produce talent to take projects forward. They have also a strong industrial base but most import is that they are not afraid to innovate. They want to be better, they are not content with just buying the best western tech like other countries.
Now they are employing engineers from home and trying to redress the brain drain. In the future there will be more and better opportunities for young turkish engineers but also foreign engineers.

What is also important is the private contributions made by companies like Bayraktar Makine. Such companies are key to becoming a global tech power because they have to be innovative and effective in order to get contracts from home and abroad. Some will say they are Erdogan buddies but if that was the case then why are other countries ordering the equipment.

It was such competition between American companies that gave them the endless types of fighter jets over the decades until those companies got so comfortable with their position at home and abroad that they no longer need to innovate so what we have essentially in no progress for over 20 years since Raptor.

In my belief, Turkey will get there because of its mentality, it's unique position in the world, its work ethics and its existing infrastructure and it most importantly it's Will.

And European and US programs will get fewer and far between and take longer and cost much more than planned.

And China will master the Art of copying and then not know what to do until the US produce something better for them to copy.

 

[Bismarck]

Chengdu J-20 had it's first flight at 11. January 2011 and it was handovered to military at 9. March 2017 so why do you think other shuldn't be able to do it similarly and why do you think Russians are a valid reference? Why don't you just wait and see what'll happen.

Since any other country currently building a fifth generation type has vastly more experience in designing, developing, building and even testing fighter aircraft of different classes and generations before. So Russia is indeed a valid example especially when even they fail to get their fighter operational, why do you think Turkey should??

IMO it is pure arrogance, simple fan-boy-like bragging to assume they will get that done without any experience before (in fact Turkey did not develop any comparable fourth generation type alone, they have NO engine built on their own so far) and now you try to tell this all would be possible in a shorter time any other country succeed??

That's always typical: Blaming others for missing faith or being biased, while none of the valid arguments are justified or explained! Typical bragging; nothing more.

I must, say I have my doubts, too. But, what will you say, if they really reach the target within the timeframe, +-2 years? Would you bet on it?

 

[Deino]

I must, say I have my doubts, too. But, what will you say, if they really reach the target within the timeframe, +-2 years? Would you bet on it?

Honestly - and I really no not wish them anything bad - no, I won't bet.
I would even bet if the TFX will make its maiden flight until 31. December 2023 as announced, I will apologise and never post anything here in the Turkish section.

 

[Bismarck]

Honestly - and I really no not wish them anything bad - no, I won't bet.
I would even bet if the TFX will make its maiden flight until 31. December 2023 as announced, I will apologise and never post anything here in the Turkish section.

Nah, see it as a game.

 

[Deino]

Nah, see it as a game.

Indeed, I see it as a game ... everywhere. I would love to see the FFX being successful in the same I wish the Indian's all the best, I would love to see the TFX flying and also all the best to Russia's projects ... I only wish others would see it similar: In a realistic way, off from bias and national hubris simply from the technical and industrial background.

But to my sorrow, I have the feeling several of the ones - to put it mildly - who don't agree with me feel simply offended in their nationalism as I would wish them bad.

By the way I even see the Franco-German project and the British Tempest not even close to reality.

Anyway ... time will tell.

 

[Indos]

What is worrying me is the fact that these programs are conducted in the same time. In my opinion TAI designers must focus on Hurjet first rather then working in different projects in the same time.

Learning from Indonesian experience, we started N 2130 project just after N 250 had its maiden flight. Not before that. It means less complex design should be done first before continuing into a more complex one. Even it turn out that there was some defect on the first design on N 250 after taking some fight test that later give many lesson on PTDI designers how to properly design an aircraft.

Any way, Turkey want to use its own engine for TFX so delaying the project further IMO is not really a problem in order to give some more time for the engine development to mature.

 

[Bismarck]

Its really hard to say, is Turkey able to produce 5.Generation fighter jet. On the other hand, they have experience in producting parts of F-16 and F-35. I can imagine that Turkey has sents hundreds of students, to study aircraft construction or similar course of studies. Or fetch back employee, who are working for air space industry right now, world wide. And I dont talk about turkish citizen.