Terrorism have no religion "List of people killed in 2008 Mumbai attack, who were Muslims.

[mehul sharma]

Tell that to your own brothers who talk crap abt Islam like a mantra.

But terrorists were Muslims too

 

[TankMan]

My reply is in that box. I m on my phone I dunno how to multi quote sorry.

Okay no problem.

I was referring to what was meant for me .

In that case it isn't much to read, but if you're on your phone and all you can postpone the debate for later, I'll be around.

I can give you certain links where US your ally too agreed with us. About WMD and Syria is different. In this case the terrorist attach originated from Pakistan. This is a known fact. But the unknown fact is whether ISI was involved and the dept of their involvement.

Pakistan has its problems, never denied that. Originating from Pakistan does not mean caused by Pakistan. The US may have agreed about the terrorist being from Pakistan but they did not say anything about ISI. In fact, Diplomats saw no ISI link in Mumbai attack - In-Depth - DAWN.COM

It's some people's word against some one else's.

That is thaw problem here. As much as I hate RSS bagrang dal noobs calling them terrorists is stupid. They are a bunch of religious thugs and goondas. They are insignificant to international politics. But what they are capable of is riots not terrorist attack s which can de stabilize a region. The problem with Pakistanis is they view other religion nut bags like Islam religious nut bags. Please tell me one other religion causing so much blood for their own country. Hindu nut bags at the most create riots which can be handled by the government and the government will also act pro actively to prevent such incidents. History itself tells Islam is an expansionist religion, Hinduism is not. Also even if there are Hindu terrorists why will they attack India? They will probably attack you guys. Just because you guys have a problem with Islamic nut bags terrorisn does not mean we have a problem Hindu but bag terrorism but we do have a problem with Islamic terrorism also, a common enemy.

So you agree with the existence of your own extremists bur disagree on the scale of their effects - sure, that's fine with me, part agreement. But don't take it so lightly, many countries that did that mistake before are now in pieces. (different brand of extremism but still extremism)

History itself tells Islam is an expansionist religion, Hinduism is not.

Islam as an entity expanded because it was once successful and Muslims were expansionist. Either way, It's irrelevant to this argument.

May be you are right or may be you are wrong. May be 26/11 was staged with limited ISI knowledge or not. But the blame will still fall on Pakistan because even after the deaths of civilians Pakistani govt did not punish the people involved or try to prevent such attacks from taking place on a potential enemy country. Tell me one attach in recent times which has originated from India?

Government did punish the people involved. Recently an Indian here was saying that Pakistan arrested Lakhvi, (That poster said it meant Pakistan was guilty - guilty if we do and guilty if we don't, no way out for Pakistan)
Aside from that, we have been cracking down on terrorists for the past decade, but the proxy warfare on both sides causes problems as no country wants to go against it's own geopolitical interests - very, very complicated situation. The blame will always fall on Pakistan, regardless of whether it deserves it or not.

When you hate somebody seeing them suffer and die will be the most greatest gain than political or military gain.

In Bollywood films maybe, but in reality no rogue intelligence agency does things like that just to see some random civilians suffer and die.

 

[me_itsme]

Okay no problem.

In that case it isn't much to read, but if you're on your phone and all you can postpone the debate for later, I'll be around.

Pakistan has its problems, never denied that. Originating from Pakistan does not mean caused by Pakistan. The US may have agreed about the terrorist being from Pakistan but they did not say anything about ISI. In fact, Diplomats saw no ISI link in Mumbai attack - In-Depth - DAWN.COM

It's some people's word against some one else's.

So you agree with the existence of your own extremists bur disagree on the scale of their effects - sure, that's fine with me, part agreement. But don't take it so lightly, many countries that did that mistake before are now in pieces. (different brand of extremism but still extremism)


Islam as an entity expanded because it was once successful and Muslims were expansionist. Either way, It's irrelevant to this argument.


Government did punish the people involved. Recently an Indian here was saying that Pakistan arrested Lakhvi, (That poster said it meant Pakistan was guilty - guilty if we do and guilty if we don't, no way out for Pakistan)
Aside from that, we have been cracking down on terrorists for the past decade, but the proxy warfare on both sides causes problems as no country wants to go against it's own geopolitical interests - very, very complicated situation. The blame will always fall on Pakistan, regardless of whether it deserves it or not.


In Bollywood films maybe, but in reality no rogue intelligence agency does things like that just to see some random civilians suffer and die.

Okay I do agree we have an extremisim problem here but it is not going to turn into terrorism. Most of them in India just wants to become rich and live the goodlife so development comes first extremism if it goes beyond the thresshold will be dealt with.

Well since you agree that the attack was infact originated from Pakistan and Pakistanis were involved I rest my case. As about ISI being involved please read the links i post, it is from Indian source but the context and people involved in the article is not Indian. It further establishes the very true possibility of rogue elements being involved. http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/isi-chief-admits-role-in-26-11/1/114248.html

Also below are the foreign links which again reinforces the fact rogue elements were involved?
ISI helped LeT in 26/11 Mumbai attacks - Headley| Reuters

A more neutral/Pakistan friendly article:
Pakistan's Probe Finds Local Links To Attacks On Mumbai - WSJ

Also the link which you provided just talks about some cable not even a quote from any official and I have seen a lot of Pakistani articles like this which say "A well placed source", "a cable" and that article about Kerry grilling Modi...etc. Pakistani media itself are in conspiracy mode.

Also why do you think any rogue element from ISI are not involved? They were rogue elements from SSGN, PA, PAF, PN involved in terrorirst attack against their own country so why is it that hard to believe for them to be involved in terrorist attacks on an eternal enemy country? Also I am not calling entire ISI rogue, just some elements in it who is responsible for the present state of Pakistan. They are only filled with hate and want to see death and destruction on anyone who opposes them.

 

[TankMan]

They were rogue elements from SSGN, PA, PAF, PN involved in terrorirst attack against their own country so why is it that hard to believe for them to be involved in terrorist attacks on an eternal enemy country?

Firstly, the ISI is an intelligence agency so its screening is more strict. Second, the 'rogue elements' from SSGN, PA and PN were eliminated efficiently and the Military is on the lookout for things like that.

If there ever were any of these 'rogue elements' within the ISI itself, the fact that we haven't seen any proof or heard anything for them suggests that the ISI has handled them properly.

According to the source you gave, the book quoted by the Indian source says that

"These are former people who are no longer employees of the Pakistani government," Woodward quotes Hayden as telling Bush.

''Pasha [allegedly] admitted that the planners of the Mumbai attacks - at least two retired Pakistani Army officers - had ISI links, but this had not been an authorised ISI operation.''

Both from: ISI chief admits role in 26/11 : Neighbours, News - India Today

If this is indeed true, and they are retired/discharged people doing this, then it's the same as any group of terrorists. Only these ones are better trained and more dangerous. But, like I said, no evidence and no more activity from them - they're either hiding or are already on a one-way ride to Hell.

The same Indian, ''Pakistan unfriendly'' source itself acknowledges that :

"The only direct quote on ISI's involvement is from Mike Hayden (the then director of CIA), in which he anyway denies any direct ISI involvement."

"When Hayden said that ' these [the Mumbai attackers and planners] are former people who are no longer employees of the Pakistani government' it was only his opinion and he did not say that this opinion was based on the admission of any Pakistani military official."

So after all that masala, it ends up saying the same thing I am : There is no proof for any of this and if any rogue elements ever existed, we no longer have to worry about them since they're most likely dead.

just some elements in it who is responsible for the present state of Pakistan

If they exist, they are at most manifestations of this present state and not directly responsible for it. We'll need another thread if we are to get into the details of how and why Pakistan reached this present condition, but some couple of rogue retired officers is not the main reason.

They are only filled with hate and want to see death and destruction on anyone who opposes them.

In which case I'd love it if they die a painful death and enjoy their time in Hell.

 

[halupridol]

What about it? Correct meaning is struggle. Contemporary usage among normal Muslims is still the same. It's not uncommon to hear stuff like 'this is our Jihad' in reference to normal stuff like praying in difficult conditions or charity work etc.
Only misguided non-Muslims and extremist Muslims consider Jihad to just be 'War'.

that maybe,,,,but u just have to use google to know what it means to the rest of the world,,,,yes words like jehad n kafir r being thrown around mch nowadays,,point is,u dont need to give repeated lessons on semantics to us,we dont need to know the actual meaning of words like kafir or jehad,,,muslims need it much more...
AQ,isis,let,lej,ttp,afghantaliban,bokoharam all r waging jehad...according to them its all fair,,killing kafirs n associated perks r in accordance with islamic view...
n frankly saying it is this islamic perspective which concerns the world more

 

[me_itsme]

Firstly, the ISI is an intelligence agency so its screening is more strict. Second, the 'rogue elements' from SSGN, PA and PN were eliminated efficiently and the Military is on the lookout for things like that.

If there ever were any of these 'rogue elements' within the ISI itself, the fact that we haven't seen any proof or heard anything for them suggests that the ISI has handled them properly.

According to the source you gave, the book quoted by the Indian source says that


Both from: ISI chief admits role in 26/11 : Neighbours, News - India Today

If this is indeed true, and they are retired/discharged people doing this, then it's the same as any group of terrorists. Only these ones are better trained and more dangerous. But, like I said, no evidence and no more activity from them - they're either hiding or are already on a one-way ride to Hell.

The same Indian, ''Pakistan unfriendly'' source itself acknowledges that :



So after all that masala, it ends up saying the same thing I am : There is no proof for any of this and if any rogue elements ever existed, we no longer have to worry about them since they're most likely dead.


If they exist, they are at most manifestations of this present state and not directly responsible for it. We'll need another thread if we are to get into the details of how and why Pakistan reached this present condition, but some couple of rogue retired officers is not the main reason.


In which case I'd love it if they die a painful death and enjoy their time in Hell.

Firstly, the ISI is an intelligence agency so its screening is more strict. Second, the 'rogue elements' from SSGN, PA and PN were eliminated efficiently and the Military is on the lookout for things like that.

If there ever were any of these 'rogue elements' within the ISI itself, the fact that we haven't seen any proof or heard anything for them suggests that the ISI has handled them properly.

According to the source you gave, the book quoted by the Indian source says that


Both from: ISI chief admits role in 26/11 : Neighbours, News - India Today

If this is indeed true, and they are retired/discharged people doing this, then it's the same as any group of terrorists. Only these ones are better trained and more dangerous. But, like I said, no evidence and no more activity from them - they're either hiding or are already on a one-way ride to Hell.

The same Indian, ''Pakistan unfriendly'' source itself acknowledges that :



So after all that masala, it ends up saying the same thing I am : There is no proof for any of this and if any rogue elements ever existed, we no longer have to worry about them since they're most likely dead.


If they exist, they are at most manifestations of this present state and not directly responsible for it. We'll need another thread if we are to get into the details of how and why Pakistan reached this present condition, but some couple of rogue retired officers is not the main reason.


In which case I'd love it if they die a painful death and enjoy their time in Hell.

Okay I kinda agree with you more or less. But one would expect for ISI to keep tabs on known radical elements from ISI background. But anyways that is not the point. The main point was Pakistani calling it a RAW RSS false flag attack. And ISI is involved unofficially one way or the other even if remotely.

 

[ptltejas]

I think the problems with the all the threads are, the fruitful discussions are also many time become stage of blames, trolls, super trolls, and condemn. This thread was very much against the terrorists, which then become the part of Indo-Pak blames etc. No. serious issues are raised that how terrorists organisations are funded, how to save the youths from hate, how to rightly interpret religion concepts, and etc. etc. Hope to get Ideas for the controll over the terrorisms

I would like to suggest some points on such:
(1) Let the Muslim Nations Leaders have Responsibility in UN or special meetings for all religion harmony. this would lead to avoid the religion hurdles.
(2) Let the Laws in all countries to not to print or permit anything to print on any religion on name of liberty and expression, this lead to direct attack on the beliefs, and many more time their are scope of instead free analysis, to blame the other religion, the level of the criticisms are such low that it would seen that its just a abuse rather than free modern analysis.
(3) Let not any country or people to permit attack on the other religion people.
(4) To avoid the terrorism, let the Muslim countries to enact the law against having Assault rifles, or other deadly weapons, let them to stop the such market
(5) To do the acts of Harmony and to make one committee which always solve any dispute raise by any country on any issue related to religion.
(6) Let the Religion be out of any Political or other issues. Not to consider or let to consider any other issue to relate it with the religion. (e.g. If US attack on Iraq, not to consider it as a Muslims-Christians Issue that is only petroleum issue )
(7) to press on nations who make brain wash in the name of Islam to solve their geo-political or other issues. and Muslims nations have to use the Media in raising harmony and peace above hate.
(8) To get help of Muslims nation in fighting against the terrorism, like US use Pakistan against the Talibans.
(9) To spread knowledge of harmony amongst different religions of the world and also to joint meetings, which lead them to peace.

 

[TankMan]

that maybe,,,,but u just have to use google to know what it means to the rest of the world,,,,yes words like jehad n kafir r being thrown around mch nowadays,,.

I don't need to use any Google. I know what you think it means. You asked for the ''correct meaning'' and ''contemporary usage''. The correct meaning is what I described to you. You did not ask for what the rest of the world thinks.
This is what you said:

what about jihad,,,its correct meaning n its contemporary usage.

It's no ''lesson in semantics''. Understanding a concept is not semantics. The concept of Jihad is not what the terrorists make it out to be, never was and never will be - not as long as people like me are breathing at least. Same with 'Kafir'.

You might be fine with helping the terrorist narrative overtake the actual religion but I'm not.

AQ,isis,let,lej,ttp,afghantaliban,bokoharam all r waging jehad

That's the nonsense they feed their idiotic recruits, people like in the video below who don't even know the most basic ideas of Islam but are somehow 'waging' ''Jihad''.

You can't 'wage' any Jihad, it doesn't work that way. There's a long, long list of requirements that need to be fulfilled by a legitimate state before any war or fight (the Arabic word for that is Qital, not Jihad) can be started.

according to them its all fair,,killing kafirs n associated perks r in accordance with islamic view...
n frankly saying it is this islamic perspective which concerns the world more

Here's the problem: There's millions of us screaming ''NO, NO, IT'S NOT ISLAMIC'', yet you people listen to the terrorists instead and actually believe them. That's the problem. And then when someone tries to correct you, you bring up all these arguments as if you know Islam better than the Muslims trying to talk to you.

There's a reason things like Letter to Baghdadi - Open Letter to BaghdadiOpen Letter to Baghdadi and FatwaonTerrorism.com | Tackling Terrorist Narrative exist, listen to them instead of terrorists.

 

[TankMan]

muslims need it much more...

I agree, which is why I address my posts to Muslims too.

 

[ptltejas]

I agree, which is why I address my posts to Muslims too.

well the Justice and Rational thoughts and arguments are always be accepted. Many Members of both side are war frenzy and they are never ready to see and argue on any rational bases. mostly all the threads are derailed, and some members are well known for it. I dont want to blame any country or people, but yes due to the terrorist attacks Innocent are dies. I never see that they target only military personal or political personalities, the targets are always innocent people. The act which are done on political or military rivals are different and General people become the targets are extremely unacceptable. I think Media and Running hate amongst the people of muslims is cause for that. I think even political leaders are responsible to not act against such. Many members are here to just ruin the thread and act as war frenzy, they require at border. moreover this issue is not bilateral issue of the India-Pakistan only, but of globe. ISIS, Al-queda etc. are doing such coward acts which can never be permitted by any religion. Also need to stop assault rifle like sale in the open market.