Tejas to cost 42 Million USD a piece to IAF

[Pandora]

Dude - we have been operating RD33 , AL's for over 3 decades and counting. We know what are the issues and MTBF. In India these issues cannot be hidden due to a very active press and RTI.
In your and chinese case - you are only getting data what they want you to get - there's a difference.
World over (forget India) russian engines have troubled everyone as compared to western ones. You can check out other airforces.

O please spare me this India and free rhetoric. WE are happy with its performance as we had zero engine related issues so end of story. Do a bit of research about why Dassault refused to build their jets in India and you will have all the answers you to why your engines failed.

 

[anathema]

I heard that every Teja will come with a free truck included.

I see that you are a new recruit - you might feel like you have made a smart@#$ comment but it reflects dont you think its better to engage in productive discussion where you can contribute.

O please spare me this India and free rhetoric. WE are happy with its performance as we had zero engine related issues so end of story. Do a bit of research about why Dassault refused to build their jets in India and you will have all the answers you to why your engines failed.

Dassault refused to build their jets in India because they could not gaurantee its quality ! There is no secret about it - they felt indian manufacturing is not advanced enough. Are you telling that Pakistani manufacturing is advanced enough to absorb the manufacturing techniques..please give this story to someone else. We have been manufacturing russian jets since 60's - something you guys have just started to do. My assertion is simple - you dont have data. Chinese never releases their data and PAF wouldnt want to release their data

 

[JafarQureshi]

I see that you are a new recruit - you might feel like you have made a smart@#$ comment but it reflects dont you think its better to engage in productive discussion where you can contribute.

I participate in healthy discussions but bombastic people like @Smarana Mitra spoil the game.

look at his comments here

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...0s-tanks-for-army.657438/page-3#post-12160848

 

[Dark1]

O please spare me this India and free rhetoric. WE are happy with its performance as we had zero engine related issues so end of story. Do a bit of research about why Dassault refused to build their jets in India and you will have all the answers you to why your engines failed.

Well your theory is not supported by the 9 mirage 2000 failures in 35 years. The men are the same. If we didnt have a useless bureaucracy, we could have atleast matched the 76 f16 Pakistan has in numbers.

 

[Pandora]

1- Dassault refused to build their jets in India because they could not gaurantee its quality ! There is no secret about it - they felt indian manufacturing is not advanced enough.

2- We have been manufacturing russian jets since 60's

You just answered yourself why you had issues with Russian jets. If you still going to come up with a lame excuse then i am wasting my time here.

As for thunders only two aircrafts were lost during training maneuvers aside from that not a single failure has occurred. As for quality Pakistan Aeronautical complex manufactures parts for Boeing. There are plenty of documentaries to show quality standards of PAC rest i will leave to your imagination. As for thunder we already have 2 confirmed buyers for thunder which speaks a lot its quality and export standard.
https://www.pac.org.pk/certifications
I have enough experience to know when i am going in circles with indians so i will keep my opinions and you can keep yours.

 

[anathema]

You just answered yourself why you had issues with Russian jets.

No - you are intrepeting the way you want to. Western manufacturing standards are different from Russian/chinese manufacturing standards. thats the point i was making. Dassault felt that HAL may not be able to meet the thresholds - it has got nothing to do with quality of jets that we are manufacturing currently. KAMRA would be in a tail spin - if it were told to manufacturing Rafale or F35 & if the OEM folks would be held responsible for lack of quality ! Ultimately Dassault - didnt want to take up that responsibility.

As for thunders only two aircrafts were lost during training maneuvers aside from that not a single failure has occurred.

Congrats - but that doesnt mean anything does it ! My car has never broken down - because i hardly drive it.

As for quality Pakistan Aeronautical complex manufactures parts for Boeing.

so does Tata, So does Reliance for falcon -- so does private players in India - whats the point ? And further what is being manufactured is more crucial.

As for thunder we already have 2 confirmed buyers for thunder which speaks a lot its quality and export standard.

That is truly great - congratulations for that.

https://www.pac.org.pk/certifications
I have enough experience to know when i am going in circles with indians so i will keep my opinions and you can keep yours.

No i am just calling you out on your assertion about quality and maintability of jets in IAF.

 

[airomerix]

A PIECE​

LoL, laughed out hard at this phrase...

Piyaz dhanya bikra hai ya chaunsa aam ?
@Mangus Ortus Novem @SIPRA

Reminds me, I am having a high craving for mango today.

On a serious note,

This per unit cost is quite surprising, i would want this price to be expanded with details and specifications and the Weaponry.

Block 3 won’t cost any less, would it @airomerix , More or less, Around $38mn as per my wild guess?

JF-17 price list


Block 1

For PAF - $16.1M

Block 2

For PAF - $20M
For Export - $30M

Not sure about Block 3 prices yet. Heard a rough figure But, it was no way near $42M. It is quite low compared to this.

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Rafale deal has zero ToT.

Who said that? Why do you think there is 50% offsets? These offsets are technology transfers. That is why the Rafale deal is secretive. However, my analysis says that India will be using kaveri engine on Rafale. France will modify Rafale to for kaveri engines which produce 52/81kN thrust such is similar to M88 50/75kN thrust. In 1990, Rafale had used f404 with 52/78kN thrust as M88 was still under development.

So, the Rafale deal will involve transfer of Rafale design to India and India will for its own electronics and engines. So, India has design transfer in Rafale, though no actual technology is given. As I said, India has technology to make is own Su30 and won't import another plane without any technical assistance

I participate in healthy discussions but bombastic people like @Smarana Mitra spoil the game.

look at his comments here

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/indi...0s-tanks-for-army.657438/page-3#post-12160848

Bombastic? I am being factually correct. India does not have military ties with USA. India doesn't care for CAATSA as a result.

Good ! How can you really scope - if you never had experience before ! We all can create fancy project timelines ! But one issue comes and the entire chart goes out of the door !
Unforeseen events
Just an annecdote - LCA team were testing FBW in Lockheed Martin facility in 1999 ; Next day after nuc sanctions , they were shown the door ! They had to virtually write the code all over again. This single incident had a ramification of almost 5 years.
Inexperience events
Flutter issues due to AM pairing caused team to abandon our CCM; No one could have predicted this ; There were so many issues that one would never know till you actually do the stuff.

You should know i if you represent Denel industry. First step is the hardest step. Hereon - evolution will be much faster.

India didn't have to require the coffee in 5 years. India write the codes rather quickly. India never got any serious technical assistance from USA in FBW. It was not that India has already written a lot of codes and suddenly all that was wasted. The scientists who wore the coffee will remember the algorithm and that can be used to write the code again. Wiring code is not the problem but also m algorithm is the real challenge

 

[anathema]

India didn't have to require the coffee in 5 years. India write the codes rather quickly. India never got any serious technical assistance from USA in FBW. It was not that India has already written a lot of codes and suddenly all that was wasted. The scientists who wore the coffee will remember the algorithm and that can be used to write the code again. Wiring code is not the problem but also m algorithm is the real challenge

Clearly you havent read AM Philip Rajkumars and KH's account. USA did not help us write code for FBW - they were helping us test FBW in their LM test facility. Next day of sanctions - everything was captured and scientists were asked to go back to India.
Sure - Algorithm can be re-written ! We are talking about million lines of code ! Lot of re-work, testing - people leaving their jobs. It set us back big time - for atleast 5 years. We did fly limited envelope in 2001 , but complete code was done much later.

 

[Imad.Khan]

If you see our accident rate with Russian origin engines , you will understand the relief our pilots will feel with a American engine. Their is a reason why all the civilian aircrafts in the world, like Boeing and Airbus, have western engines and are operating 365 x 24 , without any major issues. Even the 737 max issue is controls related , not a engine issue. The new Chinese aircraft is also sourcing engines from the west. Reliability is incomparable.
Tejas has had 1000s of hours of flying without any mishap. It's a good stepping stone for future reliability.

You are overestimating crash rates due to engine failures. Most of the crashes as per my knowledge happen due to either bird hits or electronic malfunction, or in case of Mig21s due to aged frames. Russian engines are still quite reliable.

 

[Dark1]

You are overestimating crash rates due to engine failures. Most of the crashes as per my knowledge happen due to either bird hits or electronic malfunction, or in case of Mig21s due to aged frames. Russian engines are still quite reliable.

Bird hits and other malfunctions happen in all aircrafts but can the plane recover or immediately becomes uncontrollable ? Our 1950s era migs mostly crashed due to engine malfunctions and control issues, never due to aged frames. The sukhois are much more reliable, probably the twin engines help. But their maintenance is a big nuisance. In comparison, india has one of the largest fleet of passenger planes in the world , but you never hear of them falling out of the sky inspite of continuous duty , day in day out.
I cant blame the iaf or the government because till the turn of the 21st century, India and usa were squarely anti each other and India had no choice except for the Russians due to our poor economy. Even now India does not trust the Americans to invest in their fighter planes , though they might be the best around.
Its shocking that 33 % of our fighter planes are mig21s and Jaguars of the 60s and 70s eras. No good in modern air battles , useful in ground support maybe. And our headache is not Pakistan, because though the 75 f16s do give it a edge , we know Pakistan does not have the depth to seriously damage us. It's the practical Chinese, who wont blink a eye to indulge in real politik.

 

[Kabotar]

So France will handover design and rights to India because India bought 36 copies? Do you have any source to back that claim?

Who said that? Why do you think there is 50% offsets? These offsets are technology transfers. That is why the Rafale deal is secretive. However, my analysis says that India will be using kaveri engine on Rafale. France will modify Rafale to for kaveri engines which produce 52/81kN thrust such is similar to M88 50/75kN thrust. In 1990, Rafale had used f404 with 52/78kN thrust as M88 was still under development.

So, the Rafale deal will involve transfer of Rafale design to India and India will for its own electronics and engines. So, India has design transfer in Rafale, though no actual technology is given. As I said, India has technology to make is own Su30 and won't import another plane without any technical assistance


Bombastic? I am being factually correct. India does not have military ties with USA. India doesn't care for CAATSA as a result.


India didn't have to require the coffee in 5 years. India write the codes rather quickly. India never got any serious technical assistance from USA in FBW. It was not that India has already written a lot of codes and suddenly all that was wasted. The scientists who wore the coffee will remember the algorithm and that can be used to write the code again. Wiring code is not the problem but also m algorithm is the real challenge

 

[Imad.Khan]

Bird hits and other malfunctions happen in all aircrafts but can the plane recover or immediately becomes uncontrollable ? Our 1950s era migs mostly crashed due to engine malfunctions and control issues, never due to aged frames. The sukhois are much more reliable, probably the twin engines help. But their maintenance is a big nuisance. In comparison, india has one of the largest fleet of passenger planes in the world , but you never hear of them falling out of the sky inspite of continuous duty , day in day out.
I cant blame the iaf or the government because till the turn of the 21st century, India and usa were squarely anti each other and India had no choice except for the Russians due to our poor economy. Even now India does not trust the Americans to invest in their fighter planes , though they might be the best around.
Its shocking that 33 % of our fighter planes are mig21s and Jaguars of the 60s and 70s eras. No good in modern air battles , useful in ground support maybe. And our headache is not Pakistan, because though the 75 f16s do give it a edge , we know Pakistan does not have the depth to seriously damage us. It's the practical Chinese, who wont blink a eye to indulge in real politik.

You can't recover from a bird hit, it basically damages the engine. As for the electronic malfunction, well that depends on the severity of the malfunction. As you mentioned the 1950s era migs are crashing due to engine failure, i reckon those engines still deserve some credit for holding on for over half a century. But i agree with you Mig21s and Jaguars need to go but accusation of that amount of jets requires time, and also you guys have too much political red tape for IAF to hurdle through.

As for Pakistan not having the depth to damage you, that is a separate debate, however as i was telling my countryman in one of the previous posts, you should never underestimate your opponent's skills, experience and knowledge. Also i reckon you guys are giving too much thought to a battle with China. IMO there will be no war between you and China, India is a big cash cow for them.

 

[Dark1]

Also i reckon you guys are giving too much thought to a battle with China. IMO there will be no war between you and China, India is a big cash cow for them.

Nehru thought the same.
In the next indo pak serious conflict, china will 100 % try to occupy the areas it claims in India. India in any case cant rely on the good intentions of China. It's a expansionist power.

 

[Imad.Khan]

Nehru thought the same.
In the next indo pak serious conflict, china will 100 % try to occupy the areas it claims in India. India in any case cant rely on the good intentions of China. It's a expansionist power.

That is a possibility but if you look at the history, China could have done that in 65 or 71 war, but it didn't. So why do you think it will do it now.