Tejas(LCA)- Setting the record straight

[Bullhead]

For your information JF-17 has no cost over run issues atatched with it. If you look at the history of Indian defense projects you will notice that there is hardly any project which does not have cost over run issues. You bought aircraft carrier from Russia for 750 million and now it is going to cost you 2.1 billion dollars. What a great cost estimation by the Indians.

IAF has more than 300 Mig-21's. If you are going to replace all with Tejas than you won't have an option other than making it your front line fighter. Off 800 or so fighters you will have 300 fighters of one type. What do you expect to do with them. Use for joy riding.

Yes I do salute IAF professionalism that they have been testing a plan for about a decade and still are not sure what to do with it. Unfortunately PAF has only tested JF-17 for around 2 years and they know the shortcomings of it and are working to fix them. You should continue testing Tejas perhaps one day you would find the faults and fix them

History Lesson Ahoyee....


FC-1 "Chao Qi" / JF-17 Thunder
The FC-1 "Chao Qi" is an all-weather, multipurpose light fighter aircraft. The aircraft is equipped with advanced avionics and armed with medium-range missiles. It is capable of carrying out both air-to-air and air-to-groud missions.

By 2004 this new multi-role fighter had been redesignated the Xialon (Fierce Dragon), and for Pakistan as JF-17 "Thunder". It might be designated J-9 when it becomes operational.

Super-7 (Chao Qi)
In 1986, China signed a $550 million agreement with Grumman to modernize 55 of its fleet of J-7 fighters under the so-called "Super-7" upgrade, but this agreement was canceled in early 1990, in the wake of the cooling of political relations with the West, as well as in response to a 40% increase in the cost of the project.

The "SUPER-7" was the first fighter jet completely designed and manufactured by China. Super-7 (Chao Qi) fighter is China's new generation fighter and the first of its kind of the nation's own intellectual property rights. The third-generation fighter plane, which can carry 3.8 tons of missiles, also has improved systems for attacking ground targets. Its advanced radar positioning and operating systems give the plane greater flexibility and better close-range manoeuvrability.

Development of the "Super 7" upgrade was slowed with the end of American technical assistance following the Tienanmen repression of 1989. Pakistan and China foreclosed the option of producing F-Super 7 Aircraft due to non-availability of Engines. It had been planned around MiG 27 Engine which the Russians refused to supply.

FC-1 (Fighter China 1)
As a substitute for the Super-7, China is developing the FC-1 (Fighter China 1) lightweight multipurpose fighter based on the design for the MiG-33, which was rejected by the Soviet Air Force. The FC-1 is being developed with a total investment in excess of $500 million, including support from the China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC), mainly for export to replace the 120 F-7M/P fighters currently in service in the Pakistani Air Force, though it is possible that the Chinese Air Force will use this aircraft as well. The deal to manufacture 150 FC-1 (Fighter China) jets was struck when General Musharraf visited China just before the Kargil war in 1998.

Chengdu Aircraft Industry Company [CAIC], based in Sichuan Province, is China's second-largest fighter production base, and the enterprise is cooperating with Pakistan's Aviation Integrated Company and Russia's Mikoyan Aero-Science Production Group [MASPG] in the development of the FC-1. Israel and several European countries are being considered as suppliers for the plane's avionics. The first flight was planned for 1997 with delivery to the Pakistani Air Force scheduled for 1999.

Initially it was anticipated that the FC-1 would be a high- performance, low-cost fighter plane to supplement the F-10 air superiority fighters developed for the Chinese Air Force. These planes will be fitted with a single Klimov Design Bureau RD-93 engines. They are a more powerful version of RD-33 engines, two of which are fitted in MIG-29. The China National Aero-Technology Import and Export Corporation (CATIC) tried to persuade the Chinese Air Force to use the FC-1 so as to increase the production run and reduce the unit cost. But the Chinese military has resisted, being of the view that equiping the Air Force with two types of fighter planes with similar performance within the same time period would both consume limited financial resources and complicate logistical support for dissimilar aircraft.

It is widely reported that the FC-1 is a continuation of the "MiG-33 [R33]" program developed in the 1980s. The Russian company Mikoyan OKB Design Bureau, which designs all MIG series of aircraft, sold the design of MIG-33 to the China and Pakistan. This report is the source of considerable confusion, and indeed some rather fanciful speculation. The so-called MiG-33 design used in conjunction with the FC-1 program was apparently a the poorly attested "Product 33" lightweight single-engine project of the mid-1980s. A decade later, the MiG-33 nomenclature was briefly associated with the much larger twin-engine Mig-29M. This confused history has led to observations that the "FC-1 features air inlets on the lateral sides of the fuselage rather than the ventral inlets of the MiG-33. ... the most apparent modifications to the MiG-33 design is the repositioning of the ventral fins from the engine compartment..." These supposed modifications to the mid-90s MiG-33 design actually reflect the fact that the FC-1 is an entirely difference airplane with no design relationship to the MiG-33 [MiG-29M].

These improvement in performance affected the program's costs, and if the final production order if fewer than 300 aircraft the unit price will rise from the original $10 million to $15 million.

The FC-1 was to make it's first flight in 1996, but the project was delayed when Pakistan sought to upgrade the performance characteristics of the FC-1 to respond to India's acquisition of Su-30MKIs. After several years of stagnation, the Pakistani Prime Minister's February 1998 trip to China resulted in an agreement to continue development of the fighter. At that time Pakistan was interested in acquiring at least 150 fighters, with the Chinese contemplating acquiring over 200.

The JF-17 Thunder project has been completed in a record period of four years. China National Aviation Corp officially signed the development contract for the FC-1 airplane in 1999. The project initially suffered a setback due to imposition of sanctions in 1999, which hindered acquisition of avionics and weaponry for the aircraft. The avionics had to be delinked from airframe development in 2001. China National Aviation Corp completes the detailed preliminary design in 2001 and in 2002 the company completed the detailed design structure and the system charts.

Formal production work began September 16, 2002, on the FC-1 aircraft in Chengdu, capital of southwest China's Sichuan Province.

The FC-1 made its formal debut at China's Fourth International Air Show scheduled November 4 to 7, 2002, in Zhuhai, the nearest mainland city to Macao. China Aviation Industry Corporation I (AVIC I ) made fresh progress in 2003, with 5 planes having passed evaluation and seven new planes completed their maiden flight. "Xiaolong / FC-1", or Fierce Dragon, produced by the corporation last year was applauded as one of the "Ten Major National Scientific Events in 2003"

In July 2003 it was reported that the "SUPER-7" fighter jet was ready to take its maiden flight, although a detailed timetable was not released. China's Super-7 Fighter completed its taxiing test on July 03, 2003 at a test ground of Chengdu Aircraft Industrial Corporation (CAC). As one of the eight major ground tests that must be completed before test flight, the taxiing test is aimed at trying the correctness of the design of electricity supply system, as well as signal connections between the electricity supply system and other external systems so as to provide important data to guarantee a successful first fly. Leiqiang, deputy director of the Chengdu Flight Group's trial flight department under the Chinese Air Force, said on Tuesday he will carry out the maiden flight task. On the day of the first flight, China Central Television (CCTV) will dispatch a special report group to broadcast the whole flight live. Leiqiang, also a "SUPER-7" pilot, and Yangwei, the jet's designer, who is also regarded as the father of "SUPER-7," will be featured on the CCTV program "Face to Face."

On 25 August 2003 the "owlet dragon" FC-1 airplane carried on the initial flight. It flews 17 minutes before it returned to the airport. The serial production of the aircraft was to begin by January 2006. The aircraft will replace the Mirage, F-16 and F-7 aircraft with the latest technology and it will meet professional requirements of the Pakistan Air Force.



Advantage JF 17.......has No cost over runs because it was developed from an already existing Fighter ........

And LCA Tejas....The whole world knows ..that Stubborn Indians are working to make fighter from scratch.....


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/china/fc-1.htm

 

[gogbot]

For your information JF-17 has no cost over run issues atatched with it. If you look at the history of Indian defense projects you will notice that there is hardly any project which does not have cost over run issues.

That is good point but here is why the JF-17 had no cost over runs

Advantage JF 17.......has No cost over runs because it was developed from an already existing Technologies ........

And LCA Tejas....The whole world knows ..that Stubborn Indians are working to make fighter from scratch.....

Thank Bullhead for making this excellent observation.

When Pak and China set out to make the JF-17
You had the added advantage of China filling in any pot holes encountered during development, As China could bring in its experience from building teh J-10 and J-11.

This is something you cant refute.

IAF has more than 300 Mig-21's. If you are going to replace all with Tejas than you won't have an option other than making it your front line fighter. Off 800 or so fighters you will have 300 fighters of one type. What do you expect to do with them. Use for joy riding.

The Tejas will be a low cost indigenous fighter, that will replace many of India's aging fleets of Mig-21's, Mig-27's and jaguars.
It will also be able to fill any short fall in fleet levels.
It was never desgined as the Front line fighter role like the F-16.
It would always stay with the IAF's doctrine of using multiple different aircraft.

Yes I do salute IAF professionalism that they have been testing a plan for about a decade and still are not sure what to do with it. Unfortunately PAF has only tested JF-17 for around 2 years and they know the shortcomings of it and are working to fix them. You should continue testing Tejas perhaps one day you would find the faults and fix them

Please can you make constructive comments.
If you have been reading my posts or plan to read the nest few chapters.
You can learn the real facts behind the Tejas program and its capabilities.

I am not as well informed about the JF-17, as i am on about the LCA so, i will provide no comment on that

 

[gogbot]

Are the Capabilities of LCA comparable to EF & Rafale
Just That Planes are Built with same 'ambitions' Doesn't means that jets are Comparable

May i politely ask mam, what are the Capabilities of the Rafale and EF ?

That set them on so far apart from the Tejas.
I for my own benefit want t learn
What exact capabilities the EF and Rafale have that make them better ?

If you feel i am asking a "stupid question" could you please just humor me and answer, as a matter of common curtsy.

Hehheeee Good, so late Induction is professionalism , Cool

As was mentioned developing new technology takes time and it was no cake in the park to come this far. And as i have mentioned in Chapter two India has done it on far less than the Bigger Companies around the world.

 

[sudhir007]

night flight testing

dump bomb testing

lca High atitute test does can anybody provide me pic of jf-17

did you test your plane like weapon, bomb or missile and night flight testing or china made for you like he always do for you nuk, missile etc........

 

[ejaz007]

Dear gogbot,

The super 7 project was cancelled in 1990. FC-1 was launched in around 1994 when PAF joined. You should have a hard look at both fighters and then you shall recognize that both fighters are different. Super 7 perhaps was a advanced J-7 able to take on modern fighters. In contrast JF-17 is a multi role fighter designed keeping in mind requirements of PAF and third world country airforces who can not afford high tech fighters.

It is supposed to replace F-7, Mirage and A-5 fighters and not F-16.

 

[baba firangi]

Yep!! You got that right.You should continue to believe that.It is better if Indians continue to assume that PAF is being run by 2 year old cyber kids!!

Oh!!.. I agree.. That way you will be safe.. We dont attack kids.. We scold them..

 

[baba firangi]

Well, that just proved you like to shoot trash without any back up.

Really nice way to debate, congratulation !

It will be the same case , i accuse you being a gay, and i demand you

to prove me wrong, otherwise for me you still a gay. Reasonable ?

Dude..I see.. You are lousy at debating yourself.. How does it support your point if Novice09 was a gay?.. Are you so obsessed with gays?.. Or for that reason, even if i let you consider anybody a gay, or a bisexual ,or a transexual or whatever you fancy.. How can you relate that to prove LCA is an inferior and unworty aircraft??.. Or at the least, prove us all here that you have a mind that actually is capable of analytical discussion?? If you cant, refrain from personal slur againt any poster...

And Puhleezzzz!!.. Talk facts.. You get to collect points to prove that the LCA is an aircraft mired by cost over-run, constant delay and still doesnt have a domestic powerplant etc, etc, because for once, The LCA Project is an open-book.. Every penny spent on the project is before all to see.. Most of the components that form the aircraft are well documented and categorized according to their manufacturer and even the tests already done, and the current status and pictures of further tests being conducted on prototypes are available in the public.. Can the same be said about JF-17??.. Its called a joint-venture, but till date, not one poster here in this forum has come forward to categorily list pakistani component used in the aircraft, let alone talk about its testing status and the test details or come up with photo-proofs..

Keeping an iron curtain around a new and potent aircraft is nothing of a new phenomenan.. Many a countries do that to hide from adversaries strategic capabilities of the craft they dont want them to know about, mostly to maintain an element of surprise.. And in most such cases even the very existance of the aircraft itself is kept a secret.. Example- the very familiar J-10.. But then the JF-17 can hardly be called a secretive project.. Too much details regarding its origin and capability is known in the public, including the fact that it was inducted into the PAF in a record time.. Alas, not much is known about the test sconducted it has undergone before induction, nor is its future in the PLAAF, its primary developer..

Hope our friends here wil come up with the missing details regarding Pakistan's first exposure to an aeronautical project.. JF-17 is supposedly a very capable aircraft, and one would be a fool to underestimate its capabilities.. But comparing it with LCA project and claiming LCA to be a well delayed white-elephant would be stretching the arguement too far..

So long..

 

[k7x]

hey guys one more DRDO faild project

Army warms up to Akash missile

Army warms up to Akash missile

Ajai Shukla / Hyderabad November 07, 2009, 0:34 IST



India’s long-criticised Akash anti-aircraft missile is now blazing towards success. Its counterparts in the DRDO’s Integrated Guided Missile Development Programme, the Prithvi and Agni ballistic missiles, were on target from the start; the anti-tank Nag missile will also enter service shortly; the Trishul short-range anti-aircraft missile was abandoned unceremoniously. Now, after years of rejection from the military, the Akash is being accepted as a world-class missile.


The IAF’s order last year for two Akash squadrons — dismissed by sceptics as a face-saving burial for the Akash programme — has just been doubled with a fresh IAF order for 16 more launchers that will be stationed in northeast India. And now, Business Standard has accessed even better news for the Akash programme: the Indian Army is considering ordering several Akash squadrons for its ground forces.

The DRDO’s Chief Controller for R&D, Prahlada, has confirmed that the army is displaying fresh interest in the Akash. Asked for details, Prahlada told Business Standard, “I cannot say whether the army is interested in the Akash for its strike corps, or for another role. In any case, the Akash is a mobile system that is suitable for various roles.”

But protecting fast-moving tank columns from enemy fighters is what the Akash does best. For years the DRDO laboured to fit the entire Akash system — including radars, missile launchers and command centres — into T-72 tanks. This provided the Akash with the cross-country mobility to advance deep into enemy territory along with Indian Army strike corps, shooting down enemy fighters at ranges as far out as 25 kilometres.

Planned as a replacement for the army’s obsolescent Russian SAM-6 Kvadrat, the heart of an Akash missile battery is the Hyderabad-developed Rajendra phased-array radar that tracks up to 64 enemy fighter aircraft simultaneously, in a radius of 60 kilometres. The mobile command centre selects up to four of the most threatening air targets, and two Akash missiles are fired at each from the T-72 based Akash launchers, which move alongside. The Rajendra radar continuously guides the missiles, eventually “flying” them smack into the enemy fighters.

Theoretically, a “ripple” of two Akash missiles has a 99 per cent chance of shooting down a modern fighter aircraft. Practically, however, in 9 live Akash trials so far, all 9 missiles that were fired hit their targets. Videos of the firing trials, witnessed by Business Standard, show the Akash missiles smashing their targets into tiny fragments at ranges beyond 20 kilometres.

The DRDO has taken 20 years to develop the cross-country mobile, tank-mounted version of the Akash missile system that the army is now interested in. Criticism of this delay has been vocal, but the DRDO counters by pointing to the quality of its product: the Akash, says the DRDO, is the only system of its kind available globally.

A top DRDO scientist at the missile complex in Hyderabad points out, “Western countries like France, which make missiles in the technological league of the Akash, don’t mount the entire system on a tank, something that the Indian Army insists on. Only the Russians build tank-mounted missile systems, but their missile technology is far inferior to that of the Akash. All that the Russians can offer today is the next generation of the Kvadrat.”

The defence PSU, Bharat Electronics Limited, is the nodal production agency for the Akash missile system, supported by a broad consortium of Indian public and private sector manufacturers who contribute components and sub-systems. Bharat Dynamics Limited manufactures the solid-fuel, two-stage, ramjet Akash missile itself.







Well the point is the same pakistani Friedends told us Akash is a failed project for almost a dacade their time bashing this project is total waste now.

Like wise one day they will learn that their time of bashing LCA is also waste of time .. till then let them have the on LCA

 

[gogbot]

Dear gogbot,

The super 7 project was cancelled in 1990. FC-1 was launched in around 1994 when PAF joined. You should have a hard look at both fighters and then you shall recognize that both fighters are different. Super 7 perhaps was a advanced J-7 able to take on modern fighters. In contrast JF-17 is a multi role fighter designed keeping in mind requirements of PAF and third world country airforces who can not afford high tech fighters.

It is supposed to replace F-7, Mirage and A-5 fighters and not F-16.

Liten if u read my post and didn't jump to conclusions.

I made no mention of the JF-17 being a reinvention of an older project.

ALL i have said was that, The Chinese who had just built a plane of their own, were on hand to ensure that the JF-17 would be completed with as less problems as possible.

And i attributed that this was the reason why the JF-17 had no delays.

The amount of R&D done for the JF-17 was significantly lower than that of the LCA which involved starting from scratch to design every aspect of the craft, With technologies That India never had. Sure it did not go according to plan but we still did most of it.

We have an Indigenous system for every aspect of the plane.

 

[grey boy 2]

Dude..I see.. You are lousy at debating yourself.. How does it support your point if Novice09 was a gay?.. Are you so obsessed with gays?.. Or for that reason, even if i let you consider anybody a gay, or a bisexual ,or a transexual or whatever you fancy.. How can you relate that to prove LCA is an inferior and unworty aircraft??.. Or at the least, prove us all here that you have a mind that actually is capable of analytical discussion?? If you cant, refrain from personal slur againt any poster...

And Puhleezzzz!!.. Talk facts.. You get to collect points to prove that the LCA is an aircraft mired by cost over-run, constant delay and still doesnt have a domestic powerplant etc, etc, because for once, The LCA Project is an open-book.. Every penny spent on the project is before all to see.. Most of the components that form the aircraft are well documented and categorized according to their manufacturer and even the tests already done, and the current status and pictures of further tests being conducted on prototypes are available in the public.. Can the same be said about JF-17??.. Its called a joint-venture, but till date, not one poster here in this forum has come forward to categorily list pakistani component used in the aircraft, let alone talk about its testing status and the test details or come up with photo-proofs..

Keeping an iron curtain around a new and potent aircraft is nothing of a new phenomenan.. Many a countries do that to hide from adversaries strategic capabilities of the craft they dont want them to know about, mostly to maintain an element of surprise.. And in most such cases even the very existance of the aircraft itself is kept a secret.. Example- the very familiar J-10.. But then the JF-17 can hardly be called a secretive project.. Too much details regarding its origin and capability is known in the public, including the fact that it was inducted into the PAF in a record time.. Alas, not much is known about the test sconducted it has undergone before induction, nor is its future in the PLAAF, its primary developer..

Hope our friends here wil come up with the missing details regarding Pakistan's first exposure to an aeronautical project.. JF-17 is supposedly a very capable aircraft, and one would be a fool to underestimate its capabilities.. But comparing it with LCA project and claiming LCA to be a well delayed white-elephant would be stretching the arguement too far..

So long..

Listen, before doing your trash taking, at least read your beloved

country men's ridiculous post, my post was just a response.

Tell you the truth, you ain't worth a reply.

 

[conworldus]

Liten if u read my post and didn't jump to conclusions.

I made no mention of the JF-17 being a reinvention of an older project.

ALL i have said was that, The Chinese who had just built a plane of their own, were on hand to ensure that the JF-17 would be completed with as less problems as possible.

And i attributed that this was the reason why the JF-17 had no delays.

The amount of R&D done for the JF-17 was significantly lower than that of the LCA which involved starting from scratch to design every aspect of the craft, With technologies That India never had. Sure it did not go according to plan but we still did most of it.

We have an Indigenous system for every aspect of the plane.

The word "indigenous" should be used carefully. When we say it, it means that not only the system is designed and manufactured in the country, but also all the critical parts that makes up for the system, including types of materials, eletronics, weapon systems, engines..., and on top of that, these components can be reproduced and improved by the same countries without outside assistance.

The LCA, as far as I know, uses GE engine, imports all of its composite materials (India does not have the ability to manufacture composite yet), European designed AESA radar (EADS), European designed flight system (BaE and GmbH). Also, the original design of the LCA had plenty of assistance from the same French team that designed the Rafael. By this standard, calling it "indigenous" is inappropriate at the present state, at least not until India is able to upgrade the plane without significant foreign assistance.

 

[grey boy 2]

The word "indigenous" should be used carefully. When we say it, it means that not only the system is designed and manufactured in the country, but also all the critical parts that makes up for the system, including types of materials, eletronics, weapon systems, engines..., and on top of that, these components can be reproduced and improved by the same countries without outside assistance.

The LCA, as far as I know, uses GE engine, imports all of its composite materials (India does not have the ability to manufacture composite yet), European designed AESA radar (EADS), European designed flight system (BaE and GmbH). Also, the original design of the LCA had plenty of assistance from the same French team that designed the Rafael. By this standard, calling it "indigenous" is inappropriate at the present state, at least not until India is able to upgrade the plane without significant foreign assistance.

Yes, brother, thats call India style typical "Indigenous" theory.

Even with 75% imported parts

India delayed in the hope of pleasing America and now as per the latest announcement will buy second hand Mirages from France and Qatar in hurry and panic. The dumb leaders have forgotten the previous US sanctions that denied us spare parts for US Sea Hawk helicopters, GE engines for the LCA and Cryogenic engines for ISRO. As I have previously stated the LCA is much behind schedule and consists of nearly 75% imported parts. It is indeed a shame that we cannot develop our own technology but what is downright asinine is that we don�t collaborate or go in joint production with more sophisticated countries. Once again Russia is willing and needs some joint financing.
India's Leadership Crisis: Impact on Defense and Politics by Gaurang Bhatt, MD

 

[MZUBAIR]

Look you dumb a$$!
Instead of such "constructive" criticism... why dont you trouble your weak organ & think that Pakistan doesn even have a program to develop something like LCA... let alone have a discussion to criticize it..

Batter to keep your mouth control.......dont quack quack like duck...
Ur administration also accepts your failure.

 

[MZUBAIR]

Oh My GOD so which radar and engine are installed on JF -17 .

Tejas have better radar and engine than JF-17

We dont say that JF-17 is 100% Pakistan and China made.
Atleast we have bater radar and enjine and jet is in the air....

But ur still undecided abt LCA

Still no engine and radar is decided for LCA.....

Dont srum....it shows that ur child.

 

[MZUBAIR]

LCA Last hopes down. Sometimes called Last Chance Aircraft..........The project is completly fail after refusal of international partnership