T-LORAMIDS Tender | Updates & Discussion

[Saithan]

US arms makers Raytheon Co and Lockheed Martin Corp are considering ways to sweeten their offer to build a Patriot missile defense system for Turkey after Ankara said it could still back away from a provisional $3.4 billion deal with China, sources familiar with the issue said on Tuesday.

"There are internal discussions going on about improving the Patriot offer," said one source, who is familiar with the talks but not authorized to speak publicly.

A second source confirmed that preliminary discussions were under way within industry and the US government about how the offer could be adjusted to be more competitive with bids submitted by the Chinese firm, and a European group.

Both sources said no decisions had been made and it was important to allow Turkey - a member of NATO - time to make up its mind.

Turkey announced in September it had chosen China's FD-2000 long-range air and missile defense system against rival offers from Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T and Raytheon.

It said China offered the most competitive terms and would allow co-production in Turkey, but the decision caused alarm in NATO countries worried about China's growing clout.

Secretary of State John Kerry and other US government officials raised concerns after Ankara's choice of the missile defense system built by China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp, a firm that is under US sanctions for violating the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

"We continue to convey our serious concerns about the Turkish government's contract discussions with a Chinese company - which is currently sanctioned by the United States - for an air and missile defense system that will not be inter-operable with NATO systems or collective defense capabilities," said one State Department official.

State Department officials said Kerry had expressed his concerns to Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu in New York, and Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, who oversees European and Eurasian affairs, has discussed the issue with senior Turkish officials.

Washington sees Turkey as a key partner in the Middle East, with common interests from energy security to counter-terrorism, but Ankara is not the deferential ally it once was as it seeks an increasingly independent role on the world stage.

One of the sources said the US companies were examining whether they could scale back their bid to bring it more in line with what was offered by the Chinese firm, which did not include the capability to target medium-range missiles.

That may involve changes in the missiles that would be provided with the Patriot system.

The companies are also reviewing the offset agreements and co-production deals involved in the U.S. bid, the sources said.

Turkey was seeking some space launch capabilities, but it was unclear if U.S. officials would approve the export of such sensitive technologies as part of an offset package accompanying the missile defense deal, said one of the sources.

The sources said the US proposal was more comprehensive and offered Turkey greater capabilities than the Chinese system, as well as ongoing maintenance and technical support for the Patriot missile defense system. They said the offer also included substantial co-production arrangements.

"It's really not certain how it will work out," said one of the sources. "But there is a lot of interest in at least examining what could possibly be done."

F-35 fighter
Sources familiar with the discussions have said the deal could affect Turkey's plans to buy radar-evading F-35 fighter jets built by Lockheed.

Turkey helped fund development of the F-35 and hopes its participation results in component orders for Turkish firms.

Pentagon officials have confirmed that the Defense Department's policy chief, James Miller, visited Turkey this month, but declined to give any details about his discussions with Turkish officials about the missile defense deal.

Turkish Defense Minister İsmet Yılmaz last week said Turkey has asked bidders for the missile defense system to extend the their bids and offer improved terms - in case talks with the Chinese firm failed.

Executives at Raytheon and Lockheed say they remain prepared to work with Turkey on the issue, but have declined comments on any specific efforts to revise their offer.

"We welcome the opportunity to continue discussions with the Turkish government for their critical missile defense needs," Lockheed spokesman Gordon Johndroe told Reuters in an email.


source: US companies consider fresh bid for Turkey missile defense - Today's Zaman, your gateway to Turkish daily news

 

[HRK]

Turkey Moves to Keep Air Defense Competition Open to US, European Bidders | Defense News | defensenews.com

Nov. 13, 2013 - 03:45AM

ANKARA — After a stunning decision to select a Chinese contender to build Turkey’s first long-range air and missile-defense system, Ankara has moved to keep the competition open to European and US bidders that came second and third, respectively.

The Turkish government has asked the European and US bidders to extend the validity of their bids, a sign that the game is not yet over for these two. The fourth bidder, a Russian manufacturer, had been eliminated from the contest.

One procurement official familiar with the program said the Turkish request for the extension means that the two bidders that came second and third have chances to win the contract. “This [move] formalizes the de facto situation that we intend to keep [the European and US bidders] in the game in case things went wrong with the Chinese,” the official said.

“When these bids are submitted, everyone says their bids are valid until a particular date in terms of price and the date of delivery,” Turkish Defense Minister Ismet Yilmaz told state broadcaster TRT on Nov. 8. “If there is a deadlock with the first [Chinese] bidder we will turn to the second bidder.”

Turkey announced on Sept. 26 that it selected China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp. (CPMIEC) to build the country’s first long-range air defense architecture, sparking a major dispute over whether the Chinese-built system could be integrated with the NATO air defense assets stationed in Turkey.

The Chinese contender defeated a US partnership of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, offering the Patriot air defense system; Russia’s Rosoboronexport, marketing the S-300; and the Italian-French consortium Eurosam, maker of the Aster 30. Turkey has said Eurosam came second in the competition, Raytheon third and the Russian solution was eliminated.

Murad Bayar, Turkey’s top procurement official, said the Chinese offer was priced at US $3.44 billion. CPMIEC is under US sanctions for violations of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

The Turkish program consists of radar, launcher and intercept missiles. It has been designed to counter both enemy aircraft and missiles. Turkey has no long-range air defense systems.

About half of Turkey’s network-based air defense radar picture has been paid for by NATO. They are part of the NATO Air Defense Ground Environment. Without NATO’s consent, it will be impossible for Turkey to operate the Chinese system with these assets, some analysts say.

To defend against missile threats, Turkey needs satellite and dedicated ballistic-missile detection and tracking radar, such as the NATO radar deployed last year in Kurecik, in southeastern Turkey.

For the anti-aircraft component, Turkey needs an overall picture for data fusion. The Patriot system, for instance, can detect threats with its own radar. So does the Chinese system. But without integrating into a full air picture, the Chinese system could not work efficiently, analysts said.

 

[HRK]

Turk Industry Could Face US Sanctions in China Air Defense Deal | Defense News | defensenews.com

Nov. 19, 2013 - 06:55PM| By BURAK EGE BEKDIL

A Chinese-made missile system beat out a Raytheon and Lockheed Martin's Patriot air defense system, pictured, for Turkish air defense. (NATO)

ANKARA — Scores of Turkish defense companies that would act as subcontractors on a $3.44 billion air defense contract with a Chinese company may face US sanctions because the Chinese company is on a US blacklist.

A senior US diplomat in Ankara said serious consequences could await Turkish companies involved in the program to build Turkey’s first long-range air and anti-missile system if China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp. (CPMIEC) wins the competition.

“Turkish entities to be involved in this program in partnership with CPMIEC would be denied access to any use of US technology or equipment in relation to this program,” the diplomat said. “No US equipment would ever be sold or authorized to be used anywhere in the program.”

A Feb. 5 public notice by the US State Department blacklists 13 companies for breach of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act, including CPMIEC.

Turkey’s top body overseeing procurement announced Sept. 26 that it selected CPMIEC to build the country’s first long-range air defense architecture, sparking a major dispute over whether the Chinese-built system could be integrated with the NATO air defense assets stationed in Turkey.

The Chinese contender defeated a US partnership of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, offering the Patriot air defense system; Russia’s Rosoboronexport, marketing the S-300, and the Italian-French consortium Eurosam, maker of the SAMP/T Aster 30.

In October, US ambassador to Ankara, Francis Ricciardone, said, “We are concerned about that [Chinese] company, and its role as a nuclear weapons technology proliferator in the world. This is not a NATO system. China is not a member of NATO.”

The US diplomat said that Turkish companies working on US products or technology could be subject to intense scrutiny or requested to adopt stringent security measures to erect a wall between US technology-related activities and CPMIEC.

A Turkish procurement official downplayed the risk.

“We are aware of the US sanctions on the Chinese company. These are for US companies and subjects,” he said.

According to the US diplomat, however, the sanctions would be imposed on any company or individual cooperating with the blacklisted companies, especially where the use of US technology is in question.

“This situation increasingly looks like the twin crises we had with Israel in the 2000s,” he said.

In 2000 and 2005, US relations with its ally Israel were deeply strained after Israel’s sale of drones to China.

Turkish procurement officials said the Chinese bid came at a price tag of $3.44 billion. If contract negotiations with CPMIEC failed, talks would be opened with the second-place finisher, Eurosam, they said. Next in line would be the US bidder. The Russian option has been eliminated.

The Turkish program, dubbed T-LORAMIDS, consists of radar, launcher and intercept missiles. It has been designed to counter both enemy aircraft and missiles. Turkey has no long-range air defense systems.

About half of Turkey’s network-based air defense picture (radars) has been paid for by NATO. They are part of the NATO Air Defense Ground Environment. Without NATO’s consent it will be impossible for Turkey to make the planned Chinese system interoperable with these assets, some analysts said.

To defend against missile threats, Turkey needs satellite and dedicated ballistic missile detection and tracking radar such as the NATO radar deployed last year in Kurecik, in southeastern Turkey.

For the anti-aircraft component, Turkey needs an overall picture for data fusion. The Patriot system, for instance, can detect threats with its own radar. So does the Chinese system. But without integrating into a full air picture, the Chinese system could not work efficiently, analysts said.

 

[telkon]

it looks like Turks busted some westerners' tails by choosing chinese system.

Merrill Lynch'ten Aselsan'a füze! - ERDAL SAĞLAM - Radikal

 

[Saithan]

Turkey says no new bids to rival China missile offer


Turkey has yet to receive any new bids to supply a new missile system to rival a controversial multi-billion dollar offer by a US-blacklisted Chinese company, a government official said Dec. 6.

"We have asked other companies to present revised bids but that has not yet happened," secretary of state for defense industries Murad Bayar said.

The United States has voiced deep concern over Turkey's decision in September to enter negotiations with China Precision Machinery Export-Import Corporation (CPMIEC) for its first long-range anti-missile system.

CPMIEC, which makes the HQ-9 missile system, is under US sanctions for selling arms and missile technology to Iran and Syria.

The Turkish move also irritated its allies in NATO, which has said missile systems within the transatlantic military alliance must be compatible with each other.

CPMIEC beat competition from a US partnership of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, Russia's Rosoboronexport, and Italian-French consortium Eurosam for the deal, estimated at $4 billion (2.9 billion euros).

Bayar said in an interview with Turkey's private NTV television that these companies had until January 31 to submit new bids but that the talks with CPMIEC were continuing.

"If there is a new proposal we will evaluate it... and if we are unable to reach an agreement with the first company, we will look to the next," he said.

Bayar said Turkey, which has defended its choice oF CPMIEC, understood the "sensitivities" of its NATO allies but that "everything is being discussed" with them.
December/06/2013

source: BUSINESS - Turkey says no new bids to rival China missile offer

 

[mehmet75]

most important part of that interview has not written above^^^.(i watched live on tv. ) he sad; if they react to us (like ambargo-ish ) , remember the ambargo after cyprus war. our independence defence industry trip has began with that ambargo. So if ambargo comes we will work for more and harder to achive independent defence industry.

 

[Saithan]

US Congress may raise obstacles for Turkey's missile deal with China

The US Congress may soon raise a stumbling block for Turkey to go ahead with its deal with a Chinese company to jointly produce its first long-range air and missile defense system.

If a US defense spending bill, expected to be voted on this month, is approved in Congress as planned, it will ban the use of US funding to integrate Chinese missile defense systems with US or NATO systems, according to a Foreign Policy article on Monday. According to the article, such a move will effectively make it impossible for Turkey to operate Chinese equipment with NATO.

Since NATO's ballistic missile system is based on US technology, Washington can prevent Turkey from accessing this technology by cutting funding if Turkey insists on going ahead with the Chinese missile deal.

NATO sources have said the Turkish collaboration with China on the system could raise questions of interoperability, even though Turkey insists that it will be able to integrate the Chinese missile system with the NATO air defense system. But observers say if Ankara jointly produces the system with the Chinese company, it is doomed to be a standalone system not compatible with the NATO system.

Turkey had earlier said that the Chinese system will be automatically integrated into NATO assets deployed in Turkey as part of the alliance's ballistic missile defense system. Undersecretariat for the Defense Industry (SSM) Undersecretary Murad Bayar has said the Chinese system will be compatible with NATO weaponry because it will be integrated into Turkey's air defense network through new software. Integration with the NATO system will thus be automatic because the Turkish air defense system is integrated with NATO's, Bayar said in October.

In November, however, a senior US official said Turkey would not be able to integrate it with NATO or US systems if it opts for the Chinese option. “If they select a system that's not inter-operable, that's their choice. They've chosen not to be inter-operable," Heidi Grant, Air Force deputy undersecretary for international affairs, said in an interview on Nov. 21 to Reuters.

The SSM announced on Sept. 26 that it had chosen the China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corporation (CPMIEC) to deliver its FD-2000 air defense missile system in a joint production agreement, rejecting bids from Raytheon Co, which builds the Patriot missile, and the Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T.

But in a sign that the decision could be reversed, Turkey has said it is not final and that it plans to get in contact with other foreign bidders in the tender if the negotiations with the Chinese company fail.

In addition to the question of interoperability, the US has also made implicit threats towards those Turkish companies that might enter into co-production agreements with the Chinese CPMIEC, which is under US sanctions for violating the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

Turkey may cancel highly controversial missile project

There is increasing speculation that Turkey may cancel its highly controversial project to build long-range air and missile defense systems (T-Loramids) with the China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corporation (CPMIEC) -- which is under US sanctions -- as pressure has mounted on the NATO-member country not to go ahead with a non-NATO system that will not be interoperable with the alliance's air defense network.

Well-informed sources in Ankara told Today's Zaman that Turkey is expected to spend a few more months in contract talks with China before canceling the project entirely.

“Turkey will not immediately cancel the project but will instead build a case to cancel the project entirely. Turkey has been told by NATO from the very beginning of its selection of CPMIEC that the Chinese system will not be operable with the alliance air defense network,” a source said.

In the meantime, Turkey has been continuing contract negotiations with CPMIEC to co-produce long-range missiles based on China's HQ-9 systems.

A defense industry source earlier told Today's Zaman that the results of the ongoing preliminary talks with China are to be submitted to Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan for evaluation later this month.

NATO, the US and a few other countries have continued to put pressure on Turkey over its September selection of CMPIEC's HQ-9 missile systems over rival offers from Franco-Italian Eurosam's SAMP/T and US firm Lockheed Martin and Raytheon's PAC-3, citing the interoperability as well security problems that will occur between HQ-9 and the NATO air defense systems.

Ankara says CPMIEC's $3.4 billion high technology offer, that it believes will enable Turkey to coproduce the missiles and thus build a strong national defense industry, played a critical role in the Turkish selection of China. Turkey says it will begin contract talks with other foreign bidders -- second runner Eurosam and the third runner LM/Raytheon -- in the tender if negotiations with the Chinese company fail.

However, Turkey has begun to feel the heat over its selection of a Chinese system.

Bank of America Merrill Lynch dropped its bid to broker the public offering of Turkey's military electronics company ASELSAN on the grounds that NATO-member Turkey is holding negotiations with CPMIEC.

CPMIEC is under US sanctions for selling items to Iran, Syria and North Korea that are banned under US law to curb the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction.

US sources in Ankara earlier told the local media that US companies will find it hard to cooperate with some Turkish defense companies due to the Turkish selection of Chinese missiles and concerns that some confidential information in their dealings with the Turkish companies may fall into the hands of CPMIEC.

 

[ResurgentIran]

Just screw the US, and do what you want!

 

[-SINAN-]

Well-informed sources in Ankara told Today's Zaman that Turkey is expected to spend a few more months in contract talks with China before canceling the project entirely.

I wonder who are these well informed sources ??? Both Head of SMM, Defence Minister and Prime Minister says, chinese deal will go on. And those "well informed sources" say will not go on.

Those the very same "well informed sources" said that Turkey wouldn't select a Chinese system...Look where are we standing right now.

Those obstruction of US to hinder our improvement of the local defence industry, shows that we are on the right track.

 

[usernameless]

Can't we return the favor (blackmailing) and just close down American access to our nation and kick them Americans out if they keep blackmailing us without shame? Or would we look too much terroristic in their eyes then? I mean, do we really need that much nato? We can take care of ourself. Nato, on the other hand, seems to only drain our troops and demand from us permission for projects that upset our neighbors (a worry our so-called allies don't give a rats *** about of course)

 

[PacificBeach]

It is time for US to leave the Incirlik base, it really does not serve any purpose for Turkish interests.

 

[Saithan]

Too much chest thumping and not enough smarts... As long as we don't have air defense system we're pretty much tied. Thanks to RTE and his barking we're pretty much on bad terms with everyone in our neighbourhood. Now I'm not talking about Israel or greece, but Egypt and other arab countries. When you're on bad terms you lose diplomatic leverage and we're pretty much hostile with our neighbors which isn't in our favor. Our choice of Chinese HQ might have been swallowed easier if we had shitload of friends and on good terms with our neighbors, but RTE policy is fast deteriorating. Davut oglu has been away from the scene for too long. It is never good to have one powerful figure in Turkish politics because it is bound to go up over his head sooner or later.

 

[usernameless]

Too much chest thumping and not enough smarts... As long as we don't have air defense system we're pretty much tied. Thanks to RTE and his barking we're pretty much on bad terms with everyone in our neighbourhood. Now I'm not talking about Israel or greece, but Egypt and other arab countries. When you're on bad terms you lose diplomatic leverage and we're pretty much hostile with our neighbors which isn't in our favor. Our choice of Chinese HQ might have been swallowed easier if we had shitload of friends and on good terms with our neighbors, but RTE policy is fast deteriorating. Davut oglu has been away from the scene for too long. It is never good to have one powerful figure in Turkish politics because it is bound to go up over his head sooner or later.

Sure there some things lacking, but we could acquire those things from non-nato partners as well (and with TOT). I don't see how a bad relationship with our neighbours has influenced our choice for the Chinese system (except maybe like 'see nato, we can also choose what we want, just like greece did with the russian system'). It was and is primarily the USA that objects no matter what.

Besides, we may havebad relationship with our neighbours, but you can't solely blame the Turkish side. Do you think all the neighbours will be sincerely happy, glad and helpful towards a rising nation, with which they had/have problems, that wants to be more assertive? Some will always remain cautious with us and object us, resulting in 'a political defeat' for Turkey. Our neighbors were never that much on a good terms with us and they also should show sincerity towards us. Imo, there is no sincerity coming from Armenia, Greece, EU, Iraq (for letting us down during the pkk times in the north and now suddenly objecting to our investment in north iraq), Israel (we know why), Iran (same situation). Egypt depends on how you view it, but i think all of us can agree that our Syria policy was wrong. Davutoglu set his aim too high ("zero problems with neighbors" really??), of course we will fail in such unrealistic aims.

 

[Bismarck]

I read the deal with China should be cancelled. Only rumor or true?

 

[T-123456]

I read the deal with China should be cancelled. Only rumor or true?

There are no new offers,so rumors.