T-625 & Turkish Utility Helicopter Programs

[cabatli_53]

TAI is planning to develop 4-5 seat capacity helicopter for training missions as well.

 

[Hassan Guy]

Any actual difference between these designs?

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Any actual difference between these designs?

Here's a pretty decent discussion about that in helicopter forums.

http://helicopterforum.verticalreference.com/topic/7733-fenestron-vs-traditional-tr-systems/

 

[-------]

CESA has been selected by the Helicopter Division of TAI (Turkish Aerospace Industries) for the development, design, qualification and production of the hydraulic power system and product support for its 5.8 Ton-TLUH helicopter, which is currently under development.
It is a twin-turbine helicopter that is planned to come into service in 2020. This is a civilian helicopter that will be EASA-certified, although there will also be a military version. TAI expects a demand of 300 units in the coming ten years for its domestic market.
CESA will develop a complete hydraulic system for TAI's new helicopter. These will be two independent systems with the following functions: the supply of flow and pressure to the flight-control servo actuators (main and tail rotors) by both systems (redundancy); and supplying pressure and flow for retracting and extending the landing gear.

Other technical features of the hydraulic system are:​

• It operates with MIL-PRF-83282 and MIL-PRF-87257 oils
• Operating pressure of 3000 psi
• Bootstrap-type reservoirs

The scope of the work for which CESA has been selected in open competition with other companies in the industry consists in the following activities:

• Developing the complete Hydraulic Power System, which consists in the design, stress calculations, performance and heat control simulations, manufacture, assembly, assessment and certification of each one of the components.
• CESA will be responsible for the architecture, and therefore of the safety calculations, for the entire system.
• CESA will provide support for TAI for the design and manufacture of a test rig for the operation of the entire system.
• Delivery of 6 complete shipsets plus spare parts for some of the components for the development phase.

The hydraulic system comprises the following equipment developed by CESA:

• Reservoir
• Filter Manifold
• Main Shut-Off Valve
• Landing Gear Shut-Off Valve
• Tail Rotor Shut-Off Valve
• Nitrogen Selector Valve
• Nitrogen Bottle
• Landing Gear Selector Valve

And others equipment to be specified by CESA.

Shut-Off Valve Hydraulic Reservoir Landing Gear Selector Valve Filter Manifold

 

[Deino]

TAI is planning to develop 4-5 seat capacity helicopter for training missions as well.

Pardon, but what is TAI currently NOT planning to develop?

I know this question might sound a bit rude, but how will a company that so far is not really famous for independent aircraft design, development, building and bringing into service develop:
- the 6t & 10t helicopter
- anew combat helicopter
- the TFX
- several UAV/ACAVs
- the Hurkus in different versions
- the Light Attack/Training Aircraft HürJet
- .... I'm sure I missed a few more ??

IMO that all sound so unrealistic or highly unlikely ... not many other highly industrialised countries worldwide. several of them with far more experience can manage and especially finance that?

Deino

 

[Bismarck]

Pardon, but what is TAI currently NOT planning to develop?

I know this question might sound a bit rude, but how will a company that so far is not really famous for independent aircraft design, development, building and bringing into service develop:
- the 6t & 10t helicopter
- anew combat helicopter
- the TFX
- several UAV/ACAVs
- the Hurkus in different versions
- the Light Attack/Training Aircraft HürJet
- .... I'm sure I missed a few more ??

IMO that all sound so unrealistic or highly unlikely ... not many other highly industrialised countries worldwide. several of them with far more experience can manage and especially finance that?

Deino

A legitimate question I think. On the other side, let’s look at some project you mentioned.

1. 6 ton helicopter, till now we have seen a mock-up or it was a prototype.
2. UAV (Anka I and Anka II), first one is finnished and in service the second one could be under development as we have seen a pre-design (double engined).
3. TF/X is also a future project and many contract as the one with BAE systems are made.
4. Hurkus I is in testing phase
5. Hurkus jet, a cooperation between TAI and SNC, but so far, we don’t know the work/development share.
....

It seems all the projects you mentioned are all serious. Nobody knows if they will ever all finished but they are all serious and Turkey is willing to end up all that projects. I think other members can tell you more.

I don’t know how they will finish these projects and with which money but as far as I know they increase the defense budget.

 

[Deino]

Thanks for that kind reply and I hope no one will get my question wrong. I'm really questioning how likely it is? Technically, related to man-power esp. since it is surely not an easy issue to find enough reliable engineers without the slightest doubt of political opposition, budget, ... and the projects I mentioned are in fact only a tip of an iceberg: just look at the naval projects (including an LHD and a carrier), programs in avionics, rockets, missiles and so on!

IMO it is simply not feasible.

 

[Deliorman]

Thanks for that kind reply and I hope no one will get my question wrong. I'm really questioning how likely it is? Technically, related to man-power esp. since it is surely not an easy issue to find enough reliable engineers without the slightest doubt of political opposition, budget, ... and the projects I mentioned are in fact only a tip of an iceberg: just look at the naval projects (including an LHD and a carrier), programs in avionics, rockets, missiles and so on!

IMO it is simply not feasible.

I am not really able to give any info on the technical aspects of those projects, for the finances and the Human Resources involved in them yet why do you think it’s not feasible to develop such projects for Turkey?

Turks say that a strong military means a strong Turkey. Developing all those weapons, systems and sub-systems and creating a working defense industry that covers our needs and increases our exports, an industry that makes us less dependent on other countries is what Turkey reaches to. Developing a strong defense sector in the country, the growth in science and technology it brings to the whole economy for me means it’s feasible. In the times we are living into, the political and geopolitical realities that are surrounding us we have no other choice but to try to develop as much as we can on our own.

Tomorrow our allies will put and embargo on us, our enemies won’t really be willing to arm us etc. so we should put even more resources in getting more independent as fast as we can. In some cases foreign know how and help is used but it is all used as a foundation for future developments.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

Thanks for that kind reply and I hope no one will get my question wrong. I'm really questioning how likely it is? Technically, related to man-power esp. since it is surely not an easy issue to find enough reliable engineers without the slightest doubt of political opposition, budget, ... and the projects I mentioned are in fact only a tip of an iceberg: just look at the naval projects (including an LHD and a carrier), programs in avionics, rockets, missiles and so on!

IMO it is simply not feasible.

Because our engineers make relatively less, R&D costs are a lot smaller in Turkey than, say, in the US or Germany. Same can also be said for prototyping. Also, because the same few companies tend to be involved, there's a high degree of component commonality and modularity, which further cuts cost. Turkey's biggest problem is and has always been know-how regarding some key technologies and that's where the "experience" factor comes in. This is why Turkey insists on technology transfer and/or local production as much as possible.

 

[Otonom Piyade]

Thanks for that kind reply and I hope no one will get my question wrong. I'm really questioning how likely it is? Technically, related to man-power esp. since it is surely not an easy issue to find enough reliable engineers without the slightest doubt of political opposition, budget, ... and the projects I mentioned are in fact only a tip of an iceberg: just look at the naval projects (including an LHD and a carrier), programs in avionics, rockets, missiles and so on!

IMO it is simply not feasible.

We have a saying in Turkish that goes " Soz konusu vatan ise gerisi teferruattir ".. Meaning, If the matter is about the country, the rest is irrelevant. So your question about political opposition falls into this; regardless if it's leftists or rightest, secular or Islamist.. we all want a stronger Turkey that is independent from all foreign countries, not bind to weapons regulations or restrictions.

In regards to budget... Qatar just made an announcement today that they will pour $14 billion into Turkish economy in all sectors in 2018... Undisclosed money is also coming in from other states... so finance is not a big issue for now.

 

[Bismarck]

We have a saying in Turkish that goes " Soz konusu vatan ise gerisi teferruattir ".. Meaning, If the matter is about the country, the rest is irrelevant. So your question about political opposition falls into this; regardless if it's leftists or rightest, secular or Islamist.. we all want a stronger Turkey that is independent from all foreign countries, not bind to weapons regulations or restrictions.

In regards to budget... Qatar just made an announcement today that they will pour $14 billion into Turkish economy in all sectors in 2018... Undisclosed money is also coming in from other states... so finance is not a big issue for now.

I am not sure if they want to invest in all that projects to help Turkey. Even if they want, you lack on human/brain recourses.

 

[Mr.Department]

lack on human/brain recourse

Easy to transfer them from abroad. Ethic Turkish academicians all around the globe are ready as well as foreigners.
Money counts. They will get more salary than abroad.

 

[KediKesenFare3]

I am not sure if they want to invest in all that projects to help Turkey. Even if they want, you lack on human/brain recourses.

TAI - number of employees

2009: 2800
2017: over 5000

Employment projection 2027: 25.000

 

[TheMightyBender]

Easy to transfer them from abroad. Ethic Turkish academicians all around the globe are ready as well as foreigners.
Money counts. They will get more salary than abroad.

Yeah I am skeptic about that...
First of all I dont suppose there are many kazakh aerospace engineers looking for jobs,
Secondly a new engineer in TAI gets about 1200 bucks, and that is worsening day by day with the lira situation. An aerospace engineer in a European or north American country gets a lot more than that with higher living standards.
I think our best bet is our own workforce. But instead of chanting "odtü yıkılsın, yerine üniversite yapılsın" we need to support our universities even more so they give us good engineers.

 

[Mr.Department]

Yeah I am skeptic about that...
First of all I dont suppose there are many kazakh aerospace engineers looking for jobs,
Secondly a new engineer in TAI gets about 1000 bucks, and that is worsening day by day with the lira situation. An aerospace engineer in a European or north American country gets a lot more than that with higher living standards.
I think our best bet is our own workforce. But instead of chanting "odtü yıkılsın, yerine üniversite yapılsın" we need to support our universities even more so they give us good engineers.

You are right, I know in my region hundreds of students from China. They worked at the weekends in bars, restaurants and discos. They are all back home. Some were already educated technicians and engineers, but they spied for my opinion western technology.