Kasrkin
RETIRED MOD
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And what makes you think that I didn't do any research before questioning the top brass who shoved our country in for fighting someone else war and the results are right in front of us, we are on verge of destruction because of those few elite boots that decided our fate for their petty interests of money and power.
Well, that would be the fact that your material and arguments are really weak. The fight was not ‘someone else’s’ war anymore the day the first Al-Qaeda/Taliban militant stepped into our land. Then it became our war, and all their subsequent deeds should have made it amply clear, if there were any doubts in the first place, as to the fact that they are our enemies and their agendas have no place for Jinnah’s vision. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, you hate America more than you love Pakistan, which is why Pakistan’s sovereignty and well being is secondary in nature for you compared to defying or annoying the US.
You think that Pakistan joined the WoT for money and power? You’re wrong, simple as that. It is the duty of all the generals including Musharraf to defend the country’s sovereignty and stability. The tribes of FATA are not the only people who call Pakistan their home. Those with the burden of leadership also have to take into account the other 160 million Pakistanis who want to live a peaceful, respectable, enlightened life in freedom away from the likes of Al-Qaeda.
But you’re making very specific and explicit accusations. I respect Musharraf, but I can name a lot of his mistakes or shortcomings off the back of my head, you won’t find me agreeing with all of his decisions. However the notion that Musharraf and his top brass allied with the US instead of the Taliban just so that they can fill their personal pockets and fortunes with American ‘bribes’ is retarded. Unless you call the withdrawal of crippling economic/military sanctions and the sale of much needed military equipment to the armed forces of Pakistan a ‘bribe’, your claims are baseless and vulgar and counter-productive. They legitimize the truly hideous agendas of those who you should have the courage to oppose; furthermore they seriously contribute to confusing national popular perception which is so very critical for us to win this war. If you still claim that Musharraf allied to the US purely for personal financial gains, I suggest you try and provide some proof otherwise no one is going to take you seriously here.
We are not on the verge of ‘destruction’ except for maybe in the over-dramatized imagination of yours. That having been said, I know we’re in a very bad situation, but it is nothing that can’t be fixed. We are where we are because the nation in general and politicians in particular are irresolute when it comes to national interests, just like they are self-serving and incompetent. Also because vast portions of our clergy have let not only Pakistan but Islam itself down in front of ever changing and evolving challenges and threats. Most have let us down, but some have become destructive. Like the Ghazi upstart from Lal Masjhid when he ‘forbade’ the offering of Namaz-e-Janaza for martyred Pakistani soldiers, when he labeled the demolition of illegal mosques in Islamabad by a city government akin to Israel’s destruction of Mosques in Al-Aqsa, when he openly called for insurrection and allegiance to Osama Bin Laden, when he started menacing Islamabad’s streets through violent activities, when he kidnapped innocents including women and police-men, when he killed rangers, when he ordered armed hooligans and crazed activists to ‘guard’ the little den of chaos he called a mosque from the power of the Law, when he held hundreds of girls hostage, when he rigged his entire ‘mosque’ with mines, explosives, grenades and trip wires and stocked RPMs and RPGs, when he killed a SSG battalion commander who was responsible for trying nothing other than blowing a way through which the girls can escape his madness. When he brought war to Islamabad and called for a suicide bombing campaign against his own countrymen across the country. Now these are the makers of pure hateful, reckless and unreasoning chaos if ever there was an example in recent times. These are the people who have brought us where we are, not the core commanders. If only your arrogance permitted you to see this. Only thing the Army is ‘guilty’ of is trying to rid the country of this menace, sure they’ve made tactical mistakes across the campaign, but that is to be expected and is not our most pressing concern since we have people like you who go out of their way to defend the likes of Ghazi.
My plan is simple, stop the butchering of your own citizens for someone else. End this honeymoon with WoT. It has destroyed us. It is decaying every single foundation of ours. That is the core of the problem.
Well let’s get one thing straight first. You obviously don’t have a plan. The PA does not ‘butcher’ innocents. By seeking to inject nonfactual dramatics into our discourse you hope to conceal and distort the reality of the matter which is that the PA does not indulge in indiscriminate killings. If anything like the interviews and reports are to go by then you’d note that there is little the PA ranks are concerned about more than civilian casualties. Actually discriminate violence is the domain of the Al-Qaeda terrorists and their supporters, not the Pakistan Army. Time you get that clear once and for all, the moral credentials of the PA and the terrorists defer greatly. You yourself in an attempt at saving face acknowledged the purity and sincerity of our line troopers. So now you will have a hard time attributing concepts of ‘butchering’ ‘civilians’ to our young-men in uniform because even if we accept your raging insults against the top brass, fact of the matter is the generals are not the ones doing the field work. Decisions that might cost the lives of women or children are always in the hands of JCOs or young officers till the rank of colonel at most. The PA has suffered repeated setbacks, failures and defeats all the while their full potential for war is wasted because of the self-made limitations they’ve imposed on themselves light of having to fight an enemy who mixes with civilians as a means of concealment and protection and who operates from and in built up civilian areas. Your all-encompassing allegations are BS. But in any conflict, particularly one of this nature the sad reality is that innocents always suffer. However there is no point forgetting that the entirety of that loss is due to insurrectionist operations, even if a fraction of that is not through rebel guns because where the Armed Forces fight for their nation as a priority, the terrorists only have their own interests in mind.
Whether you like it or not, things are slowly getting better in the WoT mainly because people have realized the self-destructive nature of your (which is pretty similar to terrorist) rhetoric. So technically the honey-moon has yet to come, you see it is like a flue. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. Because that is the time it takes for people to realize what they want, and that is certainly not what the terrorists preach and you (wittingly or unwittingly) assist. Better late than never, I always say.
But if I take what you say to be what I think you mean. Then I’m certainly glad you’re not in charge. If the Army withdraws from FATA right now the FC would be massacred by the Tribes/Taliban in a matter of weeks. Their hold over the tribal people, our people, your people would become so strong that it would be impossible to reclaim without a firestorm of an operation. You see what’s happening in Bajour right now? Well that’s us paying for our mistakes, we thought the tribes would take care of themselves and of Pakistan, we thought the system would hold out. We were wrong. And what you see right now in Bajour will only be a fraction of the amount of blood and resources needed to reclaim FATA if we were ever retarded enough to withdraw and forsake our own people. As it is we’ve allowed the enemy to dictate the tempo of our movements and operations for too long, which has cost us hundreds of lives and much international/domestic prestige. And now you ask us to withdraw only to be forced to attack again?
And reclaim FATA we will have to, because even a blind man will tell you that the Taliban, once they have any level of control there, will essentially break all legal obligations and allegiances with Pakistan. Heck they declared themselves the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan or something the last time that Pakistan agreed to a simple cease fire, can you imagine what would happen if we leave completely?
And we haven’t even reached the worst part yet, where ever the Taliban/Al-Qaeda go unchallenged the US will come. You think the US interferes in FATA a lot right now? Wait till you see what they’ll do to that little piece of land if we cede responsibility of it over to the Taliban. I can give you a hint: it has something to do with B-52 bombers and incendiary weapons.
Talking about protecting your national integrity and honor, you’d rather have us abandon all those loyal Pakistani people, all that sacrifice, all that hard work? Why, just because you lack the courage to acknowledge that we have a little problem there that won’t go away by giving the Taliban some flowers. In order for them to be defeated the TTP has to be fought, that has been proven time and time again in FATA and Swat at the cost of much. So you are either with us, or with them. It is not just a simple proposition, it is a reality.
This all mess (insurgency within and from out) you see is started because someone up there decided to fight someone else illegal war on our soil by killing our women and children. Do you think people will not retaliate when you harm their families?
If your logic and justification about violence and human nature is true then…I’m sure you know that a 1000 plus service-men have been martyred fighting this un-Islamic abomination called Al-Qaeda, or maybe you forget but soldiers are humans too. They too have families and loved ones and emotions. So if your logic were true and say out of the thousands of relatives that have lost loved ones to the tribes-men and Taliban at least some would have considered strapping their chests with explosives and blowing themselves up along with dozens of other people in a crowded tribal market place. But does that happen? No. They must’ve access to explosives and weapons more than your average family right? But how many Army or FC or Police families do this? None. There is something wrong with your logic, maybe because it is not logical. Just another excuse for you to justify/overlook/ignore the unacceptable and unforgivable acts of crime committed by terrorists in the name of Islam. You only provide the terrorists with a morality-smoke screen and don’t add to anything other than chaos. You don’t serve your country well by forgetting all those families whose sons and fathers and brothers have been ‘butchered’ in the real sense, with their headless and broken bodies hung from trees as a tool of intimidation for locals. You must understand that the terrorist ideology has manipulated you, just like it has countless of their suicide bombers and other cannon fodder into believing that what they do is in anyway rational.
do you think the enemy would not take the benefit when he will see you being engaged with civilian massacres? do you think the western pundits will not exploit the situation to bleed us?
Actually I’m more concerned about the eastern ones if I’m honest. But in answer to your question, yes they will exploit the situation to bleed us, just like you are. If you, a ‘patriotic’ Pakistani can blow things so out of proportion then why can’t they?
If you still have some doubts, please do not hesitate to engage me in a discussion about american imperialism and I'll make sure your concern is taken care of.
I don’t hate your Anti-American views. You are after all part of the spectrum but I do hate your inherit hypocrisy. You, for example, certainly tried to make no secret of the fact that you logged into this forum from America/Canada. No doubt you and others of your family and friends go there in search of opportunities, jobs, pleasure or a better living standards or life styles…you obviously abide by their rules, protocols, inspections and submit to their authority and pay your travel or visa money and taxes, whatever I have no problem with that. But then I wonder WHY do you consider the leaders of our state like Musharraf making stately agreements with the United States in the interests of his country such a huge disgusting, unforgivable heresy? Why do you consider Pakistan fulfilling its obligations in the world power structure akin to ‘sleeping with the devil’ or taking ‘bribes’? If you personally can exploit all the benefits of being in a superpower then why can’t a nation state like Pakistan?
The Americans don’t want us to give them a tithe and they don’t demand the right to summon our armies to fight for them across the world. All they ask from us in exchange of assistance is that we get our own house in order. These ‘corrupt, fantasizing evil’ generals have ensured that Pakistan cannot be invaded like Iraq by anyone. Despite all the excuses terrorists and Pakistan-haters have given the west and the superpowers to do so, they haven’t done it and still seek friendship instead of confrontation i.e. unlike with Iran because they know they can’t do it. They know it’s not worth it.
You sell your country short repeatedly, at every turn. And then you claim to be proud Pakistani. I have trouble relating this logic.
No, I hold the military profession very high, even if you believe that. My questioning of top brass in bed with US should not be misinterpreted. or else I wouldn't be saying these soldiers are laying their lives for fighting someone else war.
Pakistani soldiers won’t have a very high opinion of you if you tell them that their command ‘is in bed with the US’ and they certainly won’t be very happy with you if you go around telling people that they are merely fighting as slaves and mercenaries either, and ‘killing women and children’ as you’re fond of saying at every turn. Oh yes indeed you do disrespect our soldiery, you’ve said that much. You consider generations of PA to be a burden on the country instead of its one defining attribute. Generals are not sent from the heavens to us on wings, every general in his life has served as a lowly lieutenant leading a platoon of average men into danger and desolation. At the end of the day they are soldiers too, if you consider all or the bulk to them to be traitor then the bottom line is you don’t have a very high opinion of the Army and that’s that. There is no way to insult any Army-man any further than what you say, and you will have to take my word on this even if you don't listen to anything else.
As a amtter of fact, except 11 soldiers (killed by american war plane), none other were killed in defending their country, rather clashing with their own people for orders coming from top down.
Yes because the other thousand or so soldiers were killed by women and children with pitchforks right? They were killed by TERRORISTS, those who take up arms against their nation deserve to be fought, have to be fought and will be fought. Why does your hate for the PA blind you to this reality?
In military term, defense of the country is from external threats, such as defending the borders. For internal threats it's the job of other security agencies.
If the internal security agencies fail in their duties of protecting the people from crime or its more dangerous brother terrorism then, then the Army as servants are duty bound to assist in whatever way they can. It is the Army’s job to defend the country from external as well as internal threats. This has been the case for a long time. The Army can’t tell its people ‘we don’t do windows’, even if it did you’d just add that to the long list of reasons you have for hating the PA. It is unfortunate indeed that the Army is distracted from our more dangerous enemies by traitors like Fazrullah but there is no point moaning about it. They have job to do, I suggest you let them do it. You’re a pretty confused guy, on one hand you whine about why Fazrullah hasn’t been killed by the Army yet on the other hand you don’t even give them room to operate and accuse them of having no right to fight internal threats.
Talk about defense, drone attacks are happening left n right, other countries even invaded our country and killed our women and children in the middle of the night by shooting them in the head, and we could not defend.
An unforgivable act but it was not an invasion. The American SFs ran away and have promised not to try that again. But thousands of foreign fighters crossing into our borders like it doesn’t exist again and again, launching country wide indiscriminate attacks against military, political and civilian targets at the cost of 10,000s of lives and billions of dollars. Now that my friend, is a real invasion and not the work of a few moaning ‘innocent women and children’ like you claim.
Why aren't we defending our country on that? Or laying your life to defend those attacks, is a waste?
Like I said, this is hypocrisy. Why is only war against the US worthy of martyrdom? It does not matter to you that your country-men are killed, only those who die trying to kill Americans are worthy of honor in your opinion.
you are in no position to tell me that I am looking down upon them. Your assertions can be kept to yourself and they are as good as your opinions. Assigning things to others that they have never said is not a good way to discuss things.
I only call it as I see it. You are consistently attacking their integrity, in the above posts you just accused the PA of lacking the courage to fight the Americans and you blamed them for taking their violence out on ‘innocent women and children’ instead. This is crass. If you stop acting like a terrorist propagandist and inject reasonable objectivity into your opinion, then maybe I’ll change my mind. You may not be a terrorist, but you’re obviously confused and terrorist propaganda has had much impact on you and your perceptions.
They did produce power hungry, selfish and corrupt generals didn't they? Musharraf is a live example.
You cant back anyone of those accusations with credible logic or proof. How is Musharraf in anyway more ‘power hungry and selfish’ than any of the leaders Pakistan has had after Jinnah? Atleast Musharraf was content enough to let his bitter rivals into parliament and subsequently stepped down peacefully and voluntarily. As compared to Nawaz Sharif and the Bhuttos who were only kicked out through coups and hangings and resorted to murder and wide spread rigging to survive.
Musharraf is not perfect, he should never have had to come in. As a military man used to commanding soldiers he misjudged the demeanor of the Pakistani nation. But then again in this world we hardly ever get what we want, we have to make do with what we have. Rather Musharraf I say than BB, NS and certainly Zardari…now these are all terminally and undeniably corrupt and compromised individuals. You on the other hand can stick no legal corruption charges to Musharraf, go ahead and try. He is clean in that department; even his bitterest rivals have admitted this.
And would you be king enough to show me what Nawaz sharif have done to civilians? or ZA Bhutto, that can surpass the cruelity of Musharraf?
I’d love to. Okay let’s start with Nawaz Sharif, who in his reign got rid of a Chief Justice after a much publicized feud in which the Army was forced to come in and mediate, his henchmen were also responsible for storming of the Supreme Court. He attacked the press viciously and took journalists to court with charges of treason for criticizing the Sharif family (imagine what he would’ve done if the press was as free as it is now). Sharif also got rid of a popular Army Chief (and installed Musharraf in his stead) because the said Army chief had made some simple observations regarding the state of the nation during NS tenure (things were bad then, and this without the WoT and the world financial crises to contend with), he also allegedly killed an Army Chief through slow poisoning, he is known by all to be a very vindictive man and the way he went after his political opponents is all the proof we need, and lastly despite his nation being in a mess and his astounding incompetence as can be seen by the Kargil affair…he had a good mind for getting himself the title of ‘Amir-ul-Muslimen’, talk about singular and reckless ambition. There is loads more but I feel I am digressing. I’m surprised you don’t know any of this, you should certainly read more history books even if you weren’t born at the time. In regards to Bhutto well, this could go on for a while but I think you’ll like to know that Bhutto was one Pakistani dictator who raised, operated and used a brutal secret police force called the FSF. Their activities would make for colorful reading, if you even care to indulge.
I see you are a Musharraf's supporter. So if his policies, actions, and decisions were in the interest of the country, why is our country on the verge of destruction?
You measure the morality of a deed in terms of the level of success or failure achieved; I do so only through the righteousness of the cause and correctness of our beliefs. Just because the path is tough, does not mean the path is wrong.
why do our soldiers have to hide their identity and stopped wearing uniform (the uniform that we all are proud of)?
Well this is because of people like you who accuse the PA of being traitors, kin killers, mercenaries, child murders and what not. Yup, the blame lies with you, take responsibility for your destructive words.
If it wasn't his policies and decisions, then what did backfire and created this unpredecented gap between armed forces and civilian society?
Yup, like I said, unpatriotic people like you did this. Who else?
Just for the record, I had been saying here I'll prefer dying on my feet by enemy hands, then living on my knees with my head on enemy's feet, or get killed from by the hands of the people sworn to protect me.
Your head is on our enemy’s feet, only thing is that you, unlike us, don’t consider terrorists to be your enemies. You go out of your way to find excuses for them and their violence.
The ones that we trained and brainwashe don the name of islam to fight the soviets (again someone else war)?
So now the Soviet Jihad was an immoral thing in your view too? Hm, so much hypocrisy.
Their loyalities were with us.
Their loyalties were with Al-Qaeda when they decided to ignore our advice and stick with Al-Qaeda and put the whole region in jeopardy. Their loyalties were not with us when they violated our borders too and made war with the PA when the PA asked them to leave.
They fought for us.
That is hardly the case, we used them to achieve stability in Afghanistan just like they used us to gain power. They didn’t ‘fight for us’ because of the good graces of their hearts, the subsequent contempt for us and our advice is ample proof of that.
We supported them. We nurtured them
Again with the sweeping unbalanced rhetoric. I’m sure the Indians would have loved to thank these particular claims of yours, if they could. But for the last time, we had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda or the TTP, if you can’t read my posts then stop wasting my time.
They defended our borders from soviets. They had strong links across the borders with military who supported them throughout in Mujahideen shape and in Talibans shape.
This is how professional military and intelligence services work, there is nothing personal, only business. The country’s well being comes first, besides for the last time we are not fighting the Haqqani/Hekmatyar groups because they’re not fighting us. We owe NO LOYALTY to Taliban or anyone else. If the Taliban government was taken down by the help of the Afghan people, why the hell should we try to change that? On one hand you accuse us of immoral interference and imposing the Taliban on Afghanistan, and now you accuse us of not helping them at all? Your words are blatant hypocrisy. You are tripping over your feet to come up with Anti-Pakistan rhetoric but you’re making no sense.
They did not run away from Americans. It's a strategy, sometimes you are on a backfoot, soemtimes on front foot. The fight is still on. Can't you see west claiming already they can't win the war? how can you say then those fighters ran away?
I know you have a soft spot for the Taliban, but yes they ran away. They have only been able to make a comeback because of lack of government in Afghanistan and the Karzi governments terminal corruption and incompetence, and also because of the pathetic amount of troops and equipment NATO have/had committed to securing the whole of Afghanistan. Ofcourse they are resurgent, but they’re never going to win the war as long as the Americans stay. They ran away, and they still run away every day. They can’t stand up to the US face to face or retain any amount of territory Uncle Sam wants to contest. They are a weak insurgent force made strong in contrast to western commitment and government strength.
It's a general pereption of the country and a fact for everyone who research through unbiased eye, that america alter our leadership. America controls many things in our country including ISI DG appointments, which is the very famous one. A little googling on the matter will reveal a lot of analysis about this covert operation of America.
LOL, please give us some proof for these wonderful revelations. So you think the Army’s leadership is like appointees of the US just because they fight your Taliban friends eh? Not surprising. I would like to ask you to grow up, your point of view has the maturity of a 14 year olds. You have a lot in common with Anti-Pakistani militant ideology.
Do you ahve any idea how many citizens are missing, for which our CJ took a stand and now he is out as well?
Not nearly as many as you claim, I’m sure of that.
Army is not suppose to be patrolling the borders in tribal lands as per the agreement (neither they were) and if they don't like the agreement, work it out and get a new agreement, but for now thats the agreement. They are not suppose to interfere in the tribal business.
And the tribals were supposed to protect our western flanks, which they didn’t. They were not supposed to let foreigners in, which they did. They are not supposed to kidnap and murder and mutilate FC men, which they did and will continue to do so until they are stopped. The Agreement calls for the punishment of tribes and tribesmen responsible for breaking said agreements, which is what the Army is doing.
The agreement states, the borders will be protected by the tribes (and they have for 60 years)
Erm, no they didn’t, read up on some history for once in your life. The tribes always tried to misbehave whenever they thought they could get away with it. The PA has long had contingency plans to deal with tribes should they ever go overboard and declare conquest. The Al-Qaeda was just enough to tip the system, what we got is along over due.
So when you attack someone in tribal lands, expect an opposite or equal reaction. Expect that no debts will be left unpaid. That's how the things are there. So correct your information that they fired on army for patrolling the border, when army never patrols the border.
The Army patrolled the border because they needed to, terrorists were getting across. The Army did not expect the tribes to be so hostile. When first the Army came, they hardly came in with the intention of combat. They were unarmored, lightly armed. Almost naked. Most of them were equipped with logistic and construction vehicles for reinforcing road networks and making bridges and schools and communication infrastructure. Only problem is that the tribes-men, arrogant and inhumane as many of them are, tried to evaporate the first unarmored convoy they saw. And then began the war. The Pakistan Army never expected this when they went in, naïve of them no doubt, but they expected to be greeted and helped. ‘Invasion’ of tribal areas was never their plan.
This is your Army that has protected YOU from much larger and dangerous enemies for half a century. Why do you insist on acting like a barbarian? ‘Blood debts’ and what not. It was an instinctive animalist reaction to what the tribes perceived was a threat to their medieval and primitive way of life. In a way it was, it was best for the country. But they don’t care about that…
And talk about runing country's soverignty, whatever happen to drone attacks. I guess they are throwing flowers from across the border and not openly runing the soverignhty of the country?
DID you read nothing of what I say in regards to taking things in proportion and context? If Al-Qaeda gets out, the drones don’t come. Simple as that. But do you really want Al-Qaeda out? Are the drones just an excuse for you to want the PA out?
Not really. I read the Hamood ur rahman commission report and other Pakistani official sources about how they reacted to bengali disobedience.
I have read that report, it has credibility. But your quotes and claims do not. You fail to comprehend the concepts of proportionality and relativity. You attribute inevitable excesses of some to all and use that as a defining justification for your twisted views. PA has changed much since 71, but I suppose you’d know nothing about that.
Mujib Ur rahman, whoever he was, won the most seats in bangladesh. Why did we refuse him what he earned? Rest is all your anger, so I don't want to get into a you said I said thing.
Bhutto refused, the same Bhutto you just claimed a few paragraphs back is incapable of single minded ambition and hunger for power. The Army responded to threats to the Pakistan’s sovereignty by Mujibs lot. The only mistake Yahya the ‘dictator’ made was ordering the only completely free and fair elections Pakistan had seen and did see for a long time. I do not excuse our military failures, but politically, the Army is far from the only ones responsible.
why would you? Its beutiful to be a Punjabi, Sindhi, balochi or a Pakhtun. Beautiful cultures, languages, food, attire. Why would you want to put an end to such beautiful mixture of ethnical identities that are bonded in Pakistan already?
I agree, as a compound Pakistan is strong. Every culture has something to offer and is what makes our nation great. BUT Punjabis, Pathans or Balochis are not a nation. Pakistan is a nation, remember that Pashtun. Loyalty to nation comes first, which is exactly what I said if you had bothered to read any of my post. I guess some people might feel more loyalty to ideas of ‘Paukhtunistan’ instead of Pakistan, or a greater Afghanistan. Maybe you know what I’m talking about eh Pashtun? Well that’s wrong. And those people are likely to indulge in the divisive Anti-Pakistani rhetoric I’ve seen here.
My anti-Pakistan affiliates?... hmmm. Hamood Ur rahman was commissioned to write a report by GoP and approved by Military. Is it anti-pakistan affiliate?
Then again the report or its author is not really your affiliate now is he? Don’t insult the man.
Why would Mujib Ur Rahman tried to manipulate the masses, who already voted for him and he won majority from there?
He manipulated the masses before they voted for him, which is why the Bengalis voted entirely based on ethnic dissimilarity. Mujib still used the masses after that ofcourse, because Bhutto was not giving him what he wanted and his game had been uncovered by the military. He wanted more obviously, instead of what was best for his country. And the unsecure and emotional people obliged. But look at what many Bengalis think of him now.
They cashed that gap between PA and the people of East Pakistan as an opportunity.
And what are you doing right now with all this crass talk? Helping Pakistan survive? Doesn’t look like that to a sane man.
It's our fault for providing such opportunity and that is why I brought up dhakka in the first place,
No doubt.
that we are doing again the same thing, creating gap between armed forces and civilian masses.
No that is exactly what you’re doing. The Army is doing their job and protecting the Pakistani people.
Actually I did not ask for withdraw from Swat. I asked for a surgial operation and stop in aerial bombardment and tank shelling.
There are no tanks in Swat. But I thought that the PA was doing America’s bidding by going after traitors like Mullah FM. You don’t give the Army legitimacy, or room for maneuver and help the Taliban with all this trash talk. Then you expect a miracle.
And yes for the record I too think the PA can do a much better job, and kill the likes of Fazrullah. But I also know that it will most certainly need an aggressive approach and operations the nature of which will almost certainly cause civilian casualties. Then people like you will call the PA America’s dogs again and encourage more youth to go and join the Taliban. I agree with you see, but I am not as naïve because I don’t hate the PA.
war with our own people? or war with eternal enemy? for the latter, PA has my all blessings and support.
Hypocrisy. You serve a Pakistan that only exists in your misplaced imagination. Not the Pakistan that needs you right now and is struggling with its enemies.
Correction, it was BB who approved the support for Talibans.
LOL, which his exactly what I said, you misread it. Do take some time to go over this post please.
Musharraf accepted he supported talibans because Northern Alliance was supported by Iran (his percieved enemy).
The NA is supported by India. The Shite Hazaras are supported by Iran. Your posts are getting lamer and weaker, Musharraf considering Iran to be an ‘enemy’ is the latest example. Iran doesn’t like the Taliban ofcourse, but that doesn’t mean Musharraf hates Iran.
I mean I am not really familiar with this place, so tell me if we are not to even speak about the facts... as long they are not against PA?
You can speak about the facts provided you have any. So far you haven’t qualified.
You unleash the animal only you trained, you don't decide how he will react to what you unleashed it on.
So now the Taliban become animals eh? As opposed to righteous loyal Pakistani civilians engaging in modest self-defense against the vile Pakistan Army as you claimed? You are man who is hard to get down, but I will try.
Okay WOW, this is getting boring. I’ll answer the rest later, though most of it is not worth it. It is too much for most people to read anyway. Sorry for all the digress AM.
Well, that would be the fact that your material and arguments are really weak. The fight was not ‘someone else’s’ war anymore the day the first Al-Qaeda/Taliban militant stepped into our land. Then it became our war, and all their subsequent deeds should have made it amply clear, if there were any doubts in the first place, as to the fact that they are our enemies and their agendas have no place for Jinnah’s vision. I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again, you hate America more than you love Pakistan, which is why Pakistan’s sovereignty and well being is secondary in nature for you compared to defying or annoying the US.
You think that Pakistan joined the WoT for money and power? You’re wrong, simple as that. It is the duty of all the generals including Musharraf to defend the country’s sovereignty and stability. The tribes of FATA are not the only people who call Pakistan their home. Those with the burden of leadership also have to take into account the other 160 million Pakistanis who want to live a peaceful, respectable, enlightened life in freedom away from the likes of Al-Qaeda.
But you’re making very specific and explicit accusations. I respect Musharraf, but I can name a lot of his mistakes or shortcomings off the back of my head, you won’t find me agreeing with all of his decisions. However the notion that Musharraf and his top brass allied with the US instead of the Taliban just so that they can fill their personal pockets and fortunes with American ‘bribes’ is retarded. Unless you call the withdrawal of crippling economic/military sanctions and the sale of much needed military equipment to the armed forces of Pakistan a ‘bribe’, your claims are baseless and vulgar and counter-productive. They legitimize the truly hideous agendas of those who you should have the courage to oppose; furthermore they seriously contribute to confusing national popular perception which is so very critical for us to win this war. If you still claim that Musharraf allied to the US purely for personal financial gains, I suggest you try and provide some proof otherwise no one is going to take you seriously here.
We are not on the verge of ‘destruction’ except for maybe in the over-dramatized imagination of yours. That having been said, I know we’re in a very bad situation, but it is nothing that can’t be fixed. We are where we are because the nation in general and politicians in particular are irresolute when it comes to national interests, just like they are self-serving and incompetent. Also because vast portions of our clergy have let not only Pakistan but Islam itself down in front of ever changing and evolving challenges and threats. Most have let us down, but some have become destructive. Like the Ghazi upstart from Lal Masjhid when he ‘forbade’ the offering of Namaz-e-Janaza for martyred Pakistani soldiers, when he labeled the demolition of illegal mosques in Islamabad by a city government akin to Israel’s destruction of Mosques in Al-Aqsa, when he openly called for insurrection and allegiance to Osama Bin Laden, when he started menacing Islamabad’s streets through violent activities, when he kidnapped innocents including women and police-men, when he killed rangers, when he ordered armed hooligans and crazed activists to ‘guard’ the little den of chaos he called a mosque from the power of the Law, when he held hundreds of girls hostage, when he rigged his entire ‘mosque’ with mines, explosives, grenades and trip wires and stocked RPMs and RPGs, when he killed a SSG battalion commander who was responsible for trying nothing other than blowing a way through which the girls can escape his madness. When he brought war to Islamabad and called for a suicide bombing campaign against his own countrymen across the country. Now these are the makers of pure hateful, reckless and unreasoning chaos if ever there was an example in recent times. These are the people who have brought us where we are, not the core commanders. If only your arrogance permitted you to see this. Only thing the Army is ‘guilty’ of is trying to rid the country of this menace, sure they’ve made tactical mistakes across the campaign, but that is to be expected and is not our most pressing concern since we have people like you who go out of their way to defend the likes of Ghazi.
My plan is simple, stop the butchering of your own citizens for someone else. End this honeymoon with WoT. It has destroyed us. It is decaying every single foundation of ours. That is the core of the problem.
Well let’s get one thing straight first. You obviously don’t have a plan. The PA does not ‘butcher’ innocents. By seeking to inject nonfactual dramatics into our discourse you hope to conceal and distort the reality of the matter which is that the PA does not indulge in indiscriminate killings. If anything like the interviews and reports are to go by then you’d note that there is little the PA ranks are concerned about more than civilian casualties. Actually discriminate violence is the domain of the Al-Qaeda terrorists and their supporters, not the Pakistan Army. Time you get that clear once and for all, the moral credentials of the PA and the terrorists defer greatly. You yourself in an attempt at saving face acknowledged the purity and sincerity of our line troopers. So now you will have a hard time attributing concepts of ‘butchering’ ‘civilians’ to our young-men in uniform because even if we accept your raging insults against the top brass, fact of the matter is the generals are not the ones doing the field work. Decisions that might cost the lives of women or children are always in the hands of JCOs or young officers till the rank of colonel at most. The PA has suffered repeated setbacks, failures and defeats all the while their full potential for war is wasted because of the self-made limitations they’ve imposed on themselves light of having to fight an enemy who mixes with civilians as a means of concealment and protection and who operates from and in built up civilian areas. Your all-encompassing allegations are BS. But in any conflict, particularly one of this nature the sad reality is that innocents always suffer. However there is no point forgetting that the entirety of that loss is due to insurrectionist operations, even if a fraction of that is not through rebel guns because where the Armed Forces fight for their nation as a priority, the terrorists only have their own interests in mind.
Whether you like it or not, things are slowly getting better in the WoT mainly because people have realized the self-destructive nature of your (which is pretty similar to terrorist) rhetoric. So technically the honey-moon has yet to come, you see it is like a flue. Sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. Because that is the time it takes for people to realize what they want, and that is certainly not what the terrorists preach and you (wittingly or unwittingly) assist. Better late than never, I always say.
But if I take what you say to be what I think you mean. Then I’m certainly glad you’re not in charge. If the Army withdraws from FATA right now the FC would be massacred by the Tribes/Taliban in a matter of weeks. Their hold over the tribal people, our people, your people would become so strong that it would be impossible to reclaim without a firestorm of an operation. You see what’s happening in Bajour right now? Well that’s us paying for our mistakes, we thought the tribes would take care of themselves and of Pakistan, we thought the system would hold out. We were wrong. And what you see right now in Bajour will only be a fraction of the amount of blood and resources needed to reclaim FATA if we were ever retarded enough to withdraw and forsake our own people. As it is we’ve allowed the enemy to dictate the tempo of our movements and operations for too long, which has cost us hundreds of lives and much international/domestic prestige. And now you ask us to withdraw only to be forced to attack again?
And reclaim FATA we will have to, because even a blind man will tell you that the Taliban, once they have any level of control there, will essentially break all legal obligations and allegiances with Pakistan. Heck they declared themselves the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan or something the last time that Pakistan agreed to a simple cease fire, can you imagine what would happen if we leave completely?
And we haven’t even reached the worst part yet, where ever the Taliban/Al-Qaeda go unchallenged the US will come. You think the US interferes in FATA a lot right now? Wait till you see what they’ll do to that little piece of land if we cede responsibility of it over to the Taliban. I can give you a hint: it has something to do with B-52 bombers and incendiary weapons.
Talking about protecting your national integrity and honor, you’d rather have us abandon all those loyal Pakistani people, all that sacrifice, all that hard work? Why, just because you lack the courage to acknowledge that we have a little problem there that won’t go away by giving the Taliban some flowers. In order for them to be defeated the TTP has to be fought, that has been proven time and time again in FATA and Swat at the cost of much. So you are either with us, or with them. It is not just a simple proposition, it is a reality.
This all mess (insurgency within and from out) you see is started because someone up there decided to fight someone else illegal war on our soil by killing our women and children. Do you think people will not retaliate when you harm their families?
If your logic and justification about violence and human nature is true then…I’m sure you know that a 1000 plus service-men have been martyred fighting this un-Islamic abomination called Al-Qaeda, or maybe you forget but soldiers are humans too. They too have families and loved ones and emotions. So if your logic were true and say out of the thousands of relatives that have lost loved ones to the tribes-men and Taliban at least some would have considered strapping their chests with explosives and blowing themselves up along with dozens of other people in a crowded tribal market place. But does that happen? No. They must’ve access to explosives and weapons more than your average family right? But how many Army or FC or Police families do this? None. There is something wrong with your logic, maybe because it is not logical. Just another excuse for you to justify/overlook/ignore the unacceptable and unforgivable acts of crime committed by terrorists in the name of Islam. You only provide the terrorists with a morality-smoke screen and don’t add to anything other than chaos. You don’t serve your country well by forgetting all those families whose sons and fathers and brothers have been ‘butchered’ in the real sense, with their headless and broken bodies hung from trees as a tool of intimidation for locals. You must understand that the terrorist ideology has manipulated you, just like it has countless of their suicide bombers and other cannon fodder into believing that what they do is in anyway rational.
do you think the enemy would not take the benefit when he will see you being engaged with civilian massacres? do you think the western pundits will not exploit the situation to bleed us?
Actually I’m more concerned about the eastern ones if I’m honest. But in answer to your question, yes they will exploit the situation to bleed us, just like you are. If you, a ‘patriotic’ Pakistani can blow things so out of proportion then why can’t they?
If you still have some doubts, please do not hesitate to engage me in a discussion about american imperialism and I'll make sure your concern is taken care of.
I don’t hate your Anti-American views. You are after all part of the spectrum but I do hate your inherit hypocrisy. You, for example, certainly tried to make no secret of the fact that you logged into this forum from America/Canada. No doubt you and others of your family and friends go there in search of opportunities, jobs, pleasure or a better living standards or life styles…you obviously abide by their rules, protocols, inspections and submit to their authority and pay your travel or visa money and taxes, whatever I have no problem with that. But then I wonder WHY do you consider the leaders of our state like Musharraf making stately agreements with the United States in the interests of his country such a huge disgusting, unforgivable heresy? Why do you consider Pakistan fulfilling its obligations in the world power structure akin to ‘sleeping with the devil’ or taking ‘bribes’? If you personally can exploit all the benefits of being in a superpower then why can’t a nation state like Pakistan?
The Americans don’t want us to give them a tithe and they don’t demand the right to summon our armies to fight for them across the world. All they ask from us in exchange of assistance is that we get our own house in order. These ‘corrupt, fantasizing evil’ generals have ensured that Pakistan cannot be invaded like Iraq by anyone. Despite all the excuses terrorists and Pakistan-haters have given the west and the superpowers to do so, they haven’t done it and still seek friendship instead of confrontation i.e. unlike with Iran because they know they can’t do it. They know it’s not worth it.
You sell your country short repeatedly, at every turn. And then you claim to be proud Pakistani. I have trouble relating this logic.
No, I hold the military profession very high, even if you believe that. My questioning of top brass in bed with US should not be misinterpreted. or else I wouldn't be saying these soldiers are laying their lives for fighting someone else war.
Pakistani soldiers won’t have a very high opinion of you if you tell them that their command ‘is in bed with the US’ and they certainly won’t be very happy with you if you go around telling people that they are merely fighting as slaves and mercenaries either, and ‘killing women and children’ as you’re fond of saying at every turn. Oh yes indeed you do disrespect our soldiery, you’ve said that much. You consider generations of PA to be a burden on the country instead of its one defining attribute. Generals are not sent from the heavens to us on wings, every general in his life has served as a lowly lieutenant leading a platoon of average men into danger and desolation. At the end of the day they are soldiers too, if you consider all or the bulk to them to be traitor then the bottom line is you don’t have a very high opinion of the Army and that’s that. There is no way to insult any Army-man any further than what you say, and you will have to take my word on this even if you don't listen to anything else.
As a amtter of fact, except 11 soldiers (killed by american war plane), none other were killed in defending their country, rather clashing with their own people for orders coming from top down.
Yes because the other thousand or so soldiers were killed by women and children with pitchforks right? They were killed by TERRORISTS, those who take up arms against their nation deserve to be fought, have to be fought and will be fought. Why does your hate for the PA blind you to this reality?
In military term, defense of the country is from external threats, such as defending the borders. For internal threats it's the job of other security agencies.
If the internal security agencies fail in their duties of protecting the people from crime or its more dangerous brother terrorism then, then the Army as servants are duty bound to assist in whatever way they can. It is the Army’s job to defend the country from external as well as internal threats. This has been the case for a long time. The Army can’t tell its people ‘we don’t do windows’, even if it did you’d just add that to the long list of reasons you have for hating the PA. It is unfortunate indeed that the Army is distracted from our more dangerous enemies by traitors like Fazrullah but there is no point moaning about it. They have job to do, I suggest you let them do it. You’re a pretty confused guy, on one hand you whine about why Fazrullah hasn’t been killed by the Army yet on the other hand you don’t even give them room to operate and accuse them of having no right to fight internal threats.
Talk about defense, drone attacks are happening left n right, other countries even invaded our country and killed our women and children in the middle of the night by shooting them in the head, and we could not defend.
An unforgivable act but it was not an invasion. The American SFs ran away and have promised not to try that again. But thousands of foreign fighters crossing into our borders like it doesn’t exist again and again, launching country wide indiscriminate attacks against military, political and civilian targets at the cost of 10,000s of lives and billions of dollars. Now that my friend, is a real invasion and not the work of a few moaning ‘innocent women and children’ like you claim.
Why aren't we defending our country on that? Or laying your life to defend those attacks, is a waste?
Like I said, this is hypocrisy. Why is only war against the US worthy of martyrdom? It does not matter to you that your country-men are killed, only those who die trying to kill Americans are worthy of honor in your opinion.
you are in no position to tell me that I am looking down upon them. Your assertions can be kept to yourself and they are as good as your opinions. Assigning things to others that they have never said is not a good way to discuss things.
I only call it as I see it. You are consistently attacking their integrity, in the above posts you just accused the PA of lacking the courage to fight the Americans and you blamed them for taking their violence out on ‘innocent women and children’ instead. This is crass. If you stop acting like a terrorist propagandist and inject reasonable objectivity into your opinion, then maybe I’ll change my mind. You may not be a terrorist, but you’re obviously confused and terrorist propaganda has had much impact on you and your perceptions.
They did produce power hungry, selfish and corrupt generals didn't they? Musharraf is a live example.
You cant back anyone of those accusations with credible logic or proof. How is Musharraf in anyway more ‘power hungry and selfish’ than any of the leaders Pakistan has had after Jinnah? Atleast Musharraf was content enough to let his bitter rivals into parliament and subsequently stepped down peacefully and voluntarily. As compared to Nawaz Sharif and the Bhuttos who were only kicked out through coups and hangings and resorted to murder and wide spread rigging to survive.
Musharraf is not perfect, he should never have had to come in. As a military man used to commanding soldiers he misjudged the demeanor of the Pakistani nation. But then again in this world we hardly ever get what we want, we have to make do with what we have. Rather Musharraf I say than BB, NS and certainly Zardari…now these are all terminally and undeniably corrupt and compromised individuals. You on the other hand can stick no legal corruption charges to Musharraf, go ahead and try. He is clean in that department; even his bitterest rivals have admitted this.
And would you be king enough to show me what Nawaz sharif have done to civilians? or ZA Bhutto, that can surpass the cruelity of Musharraf?
I’d love to. Okay let’s start with Nawaz Sharif, who in his reign got rid of a Chief Justice after a much publicized feud in which the Army was forced to come in and mediate, his henchmen were also responsible for storming of the Supreme Court. He attacked the press viciously and took journalists to court with charges of treason for criticizing the Sharif family (imagine what he would’ve done if the press was as free as it is now). Sharif also got rid of a popular Army Chief (and installed Musharraf in his stead) because the said Army chief had made some simple observations regarding the state of the nation during NS tenure (things were bad then, and this without the WoT and the world financial crises to contend with), he also allegedly killed an Army Chief through slow poisoning, he is known by all to be a very vindictive man and the way he went after his political opponents is all the proof we need, and lastly despite his nation being in a mess and his astounding incompetence as can be seen by the Kargil affair…he had a good mind for getting himself the title of ‘Amir-ul-Muslimen’, talk about singular and reckless ambition. There is loads more but I feel I am digressing. I’m surprised you don’t know any of this, you should certainly read more history books even if you weren’t born at the time. In regards to Bhutto well, this could go on for a while but I think you’ll like to know that Bhutto was one Pakistani dictator who raised, operated and used a brutal secret police force called the FSF. Their activities would make for colorful reading, if you even care to indulge.
I see you are a Musharraf's supporter. So if his policies, actions, and decisions were in the interest of the country, why is our country on the verge of destruction?
You measure the morality of a deed in terms of the level of success or failure achieved; I do so only through the righteousness of the cause and correctness of our beliefs. Just because the path is tough, does not mean the path is wrong.
why do our soldiers have to hide their identity and stopped wearing uniform (the uniform that we all are proud of)?
Well this is because of people like you who accuse the PA of being traitors, kin killers, mercenaries, child murders and what not. Yup, the blame lies with you, take responsibility for your destructive words.
If it wasn't his policies and decisions, then what did backfire and created this unpredecented gap between armed forces and civilian society?
Yup, like I said, unpatriotic people like you did this. Who else?
Just for the record, I had been saying here I'll prefer dying on my feet by enemy hands, then living on my knees with my head on enemy's feet, or get killed from by the hands of the people sworn to protect me.
Your head is on our enemy’s feet, only thing is that you, unlike us, don’t consider terrorists to be your enemies. You go out of your way to find excuses for them and their violence.
The ones that we trained and brainwashe don the name of islam to fight the soviets (again someone else war)?
So now the Soviet Jihad was an immoral thing in your view too? Hm, so much hypocrisy.
Their loyalities were with us.
Their loyalties were with Al-Qaeda when they decided to ignore our advice and stick with Al-Qaeda and put the whole region in jeopardy. Their loyalties were not with us when they violated our borders too and made war with the PA when the PA asked them to leave.
They fought for us.
That is hardly the case, we used them to achieve stability in Afghanistan just like they used us to gain power. They didn’t ‘fight for us’ because of the good graces of their hearts, the subsequent contempt for us and our advice is ample proof of that.
We supported them. We nurtured them
Again with the sweeping unbalanced rhetoric. I’m sure the Indians would have loved to thank these particular claims of yours, if they could. But for the last time, we had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda or the TTP, if you can’t read my posts then stop wasting my time.
They defended our borders from soviets. They had strong links across the borders with military who supported them throughout in Mujahideen shape and in Talibans shape.
This is how professional military and intelligence services work, there is nothing personal, only business. The country’s well being comes first, besides for the last time we are not fighting the Haqqani/Hekmatyar groups because they’re not fighting us. We owe NO LOYALTY to Taliban or anyone else. If the Taliban government was taken down by the help of the Afghan people, why the hell should we try to change that? On one hand you accuse us of immoral interference and imposing the Taliban on Afghanistan, and now you accuse us of not helping them at all? Your words are blatant hypocrisy. You are tripping over your feet to come up with Anti-Pakistan rhetoric but you’re making no sense.
They did not run away from Americans. It's a strategy, sometimes you are on a backfoot, soemtimes on front foot. The fight is still on. Can't you see west claiming already they can't win the war? how can you say then those fighters ran away?
I know you have a soft spot for the Taliban, but yes they ran away. They have only been able to make a comeback because of lack of government in Afghanistan and the Karzi governments terminal corruption and incompetence, and also because of the pathetic amount of troops and equipment NATO have/had committed to securing the whole of Afghanistan. Ofcourse they are resurgent, but they’re never going to win the war as long as the Americans stay. They ran away, and they still run away every day. They can’t stand up to the US face to face or retain any amount of territory Uncle Sam wants to contest. They are a weak insurgent force made strong in contrast to western commitment and government strength.
It's a general pereption of the country and a fact for everyone who research through unbiased eye, that america alter our leadership. America controls many things in our country including ISI DG appointments, which is the very famous one. A little googling on the matter will reveal a lot of analysis about this covert operation of America.
LOL, please give us some proof for these wonderful revelations. So you think the Army’s leadership is like appointees of the US just because they fight your Taliban friends eh? Not surprising. I would like to ask you to grow up, your point of view has the maturity of a 14 year olds. You have a lot in common with Anti-Pakistani militant ideology.
Do you ahve any idea how many citizens are missing, for which our CJ took a stand and now he is out as well?
Not nearly as many as you claim, I’m sure of that.
Army is not suppose to be patrolling the borders in tribal lands as per the agreement (neither they were) and if they don't like the agreement, work it out and get a new agreement, but for now thats the agreement. They are not suppose to interfere in the tribal business.
And the tribals were supposed to protect our western flanks, which they didn’t. They were not supposed to let foreigners in, which they did. They are not supposed to kidnap and murder and mutilate FC men, which they did and will continue to do so until they are stopped. The Agreement calls for the punishment of tribes and tribesmen responsible for breaking said agreements, which is what the Army is doing.
The agreement states, the borders will be protected by the tribes (and they have for 60 years)
Erm, no they didn’t, read up on some history for once in your life. The tribes always tried to misbehave whenever they thought they could get away with it. The PA has long had contingency plans to deal with tribes should they ever go overboard and declare conquest. The Al-Qaeda was just enough to tip the system, what we got is along over due.
So when you attack someone in tribal lands, expect an opposite or equal reaction. Expect that no debts will be left unpaid. That's how the things are there. So correct your information that they fired on army for patrolling the border, when army never patrols the border.
The Army patrolled the border because they needed to, terrorists were getting across. The Army did not expect the tribes to be so hostile. When first the Army came, they hardly came in with the intention of combat. They were unarmored, lightly armed. Almost naked. Most of them were equipped with logistic and construction vehicles for reinforcing road networks and making bridges and schools and communication infrastructure. Only problem is that the tribes-men, arrogant and inhumane as many of them are, tried to evaporate the first unarmored convoy they saw. And then began the war. The Pakistan Army never expected this when they went in, naïve of them no doubt, but they expected to be greeted and helped. ‘Invasion’ of tribal areas was never their plan.
This is your Army that has protected YOU from much larger and dangerous enemies for half a century. Why do you insist on acting like a barbarian? ‘Blood debts’ and what not. It was an instinctive animalist reaction to what the tribes perceived was a threat to their medieval and primitive way of life. In a way it was, it was best for the country. But they don’t care about that…
And talk about runing country's soverignty, whatever happen to drone attacks. I guess they are throwing flowers from across the border and not openly runing the soverignhty of the country?
DID you read nothing of what I say in regards to taking things in proportion and context? If Al-Qaeda gets out, the drones don’t come. Simple as that. But do you really want Al-Qaeda out? Are the drones just an excuse for you to want the PA out?
Not really. I read the Hamood ur rahman commission report and other Pakistani official sources about how they reacted to bengali disobedience.
I have read that report, it has credibility. But your quotes and claims do not. You fail to comprehend the concepts of proportionality and relativity. You attribute inevitable excesses of some to all and use that as a defining justification for your twisted views. PA has changed much since 71, but I suppose you’d know nothing about that.
Mujib Ur rahman, whoever he was, won the most seats in bangladesh. Why did we refuse him what he earned? Rest is all your anger, so I don't want to get into a you said I said thing.
Bhutto refused, the same Bhutto you just claimed a few paragraphs back is incapable of single minded ambition and hunger for power. The Army responded to threats to the Pakistan’s sovereignty by Mujibs lot. The only mistake Yahya the ‘dictator’ made was ordering the only completely free and fair elections Pakistan had seen and did see for a long time. I do not excuse our military failures, but politically, the Army is far from the only ones responsible.
why would you? Its beutiful to be a Punjabi, Sindhi, balochi or a Pakhtun. Beautiful cultures, languages, food, attire. Why would you want to put an end to such beautiful mixture of ethnical identities that are bonded in Pakistan already?
I agree, as a compound Pakistan is strong. Every culture has something to offer and is what makes our nation great. BUT Punjabis, Pathans or Balochis are not a nation. Pakistan is a nation, remember that Pashtun. Loyalty to nation comes first, which is exactly what I said if you had bothered to read any of my post. I guess some people might feel more loyalty to ideas of ‘Paukhtunistan’ instead of Pakistan, or a greater Afghanistan. Maybe you know what I’m talking about eh Pashtun? Well that’s wrong. And those people are likely to indulge in the divisive Anti-Pakistani rhetoric I’ve seen here.
My anti-Pakistan affiliates?... hmmm. Hamood Ur rahman was commissioned to write a report by GoP and approved by Military. Is it anti-pakistan affiliate?
Then again the report or its author is not really your affiliate now is he? Don’t insult the man.
Why would Mujib Ur Rahman tried to manipulate the masses, who already voted for him and he won majority from there?
He manipulated the masses before they voted for him, which is why the Bengalis voted entirely based on ethnic dissimilarity. Mujib still used the masses after that ofcourse, because Bhutto was not giving him what he wanted and his game had been uncovered by the military. He wanted more obviously, instead of what was best for his country. And the unsecure and emotional people obliged. But look at what many Bengalis think of him now.
They cashed that gap between PA and the people of East Pakistan as an opportunity.
And what are you doing right now with all this crass talk? Helping Pakistan survive? Doesn’t look like that to a sane man.
It's our fault for providing such opportunity and that is why I brought up dhakka in the first place,
No doubt.
that we are doing again the same thing, creating gap between armed forces and civilian masses.
No that is exactly what you’re doing. The Army is doing their job and protecting the Pakistani people.
Actually I did not ask for withdraw from Swat. I asked for a surgial operation and stop in aerial bombardment and tank shelling.
There are no tanks in Swat. But I thought that the PA was doing America’s bidding by going after traitors like Mullah FM. You don’t give the Army legitimacy, or room for maneuver and help the Taliban with all this trash talk. Then you expect a miracle.
And yes for the record I too think the PA can do a much better job, and kill the likes of Fazrullah. But I also know that it will most certainly need an aggressive approach and operations the nature of which will almost certainly cause civilian casualties. Then people like you will call the PA America’s dogs again and encourage more youth to go and join the Taliban. I agree with you see, but I am not as naïve because I don’t hate the PA.
war with our own people? or war with eternal enemy? for the latter, PA has my all blessings and support.
Hypocrisy. You serve a Pakistan that only exists in your misplaced imagination. Not the Pakistan that needs you right now and is struggling with its enemies.
Correction, it was BB who approved the support for Talibans.
LOL, which his exactly what I said, you misread it. Do take some time to go over this post please.
Musharraf accepted he supported talibans because Northern Alliance was supported by Iran (his percieved enemy).
The NA is supported by India. The Shite Hazaras are supported by Iran. Your posts are getting lamer and weaker, Musharraf considering Iran to be an ‘enemy’ is the latest example. Iran doesn’t like the Taliban ofcourse, but that doesn’t mean Musharraf hates Iran.
I mean I am not really familiar with this place, so tell me if we are not to even speak about the facts... as long they are not against PA?
You can speak about the facts provided you have any. So far you haven’t qualified.
You unleash the animal only you trained, you don't decide how he will react to what you unleashed it on.
So now the Taliban become animals eh? As opposed to righteous loyal Pakistani civilians engaging in modest self-defense against the vile Pakistan Army as you claimed? You are man who is hard to get down, but I will try.
Okay WOW, this is getting boring. I’ll answer the rest later, though most of it is not worth it. It is too much for most people to read anyway. Sorry for all the digress AM.
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