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Swat Operation II

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Dear Karskin:

“”If you, a ‘patriotic’ Pakistani can blow things so out of proportion then why can’t they?””

You often equate your servitude to the US neo-con policies with Patriotism. In much the same way as a Mullah is not a THEKEDAR of Islam; people of your elk are not THEKEDARS of Patriotism. All of us at this forum are probably more committed to Pakistan and its core values than your good self.

Pak Army has not been used for exactly very patriotic purposes all the time. In the past 61 years its Full Scale engagement record with the enemy is about 37 days.

The Army has been consistently misused in East Pakistan, Balochistan, FATA, Sind, NWFP. This national asset has been misused to kill a million Pakistani citizens in East Pakistan, several thousands in Marri-Bugti areas in 1973-76, Waziristan (2003-now), Bajaur, Swat.

The main fault lies with the quality and caliber of our Generals, makes a deadly combination once punctuated with greed and lust for “booty”.

“”You think the US interferes in FATA a lot right now? Wait till you see what they’ll do to that little piece of land if we cede responsibility of it over to the Taliban. I can give you a hint: it has something to do with B-52 bombers and incendiary weapons.””

Scaring the nation to death without a shot being fired??? This sickening formula is obsolete now, has been used for good 9 years by now.

Dear Anwar,

These guys will not listen you ,let them continue their songs in favour of PA top brass and US .

PA is only institution left in which at Col level majority is still patriotic and not currupt and have courage to die for right cause as Col Haroon SSG.

What you suggest how can we reshape our army and have great generals like Gen Akhtar Abdul Rahman,Gen Hamza Hero 1971 Sulamanki Sector Bahawal Nagar, Gen Ghulam Muhammad SSG, Gen Javed Nasir Hero Ugri Camp , Brig.TM Tariq SSG in future
 

Swat inferno and militant ideology


By Mushfiq Murshed
February 11, 2009

THE writ of the state in Swat has been demolished. When Operation Rah-i-Haq was launched by the Pakistan Army in 2007, the militants controlled only 25 per cent of the area. After a year of military operations involving approximately 20,000 troops, the Taliban diktat has, like ink spilt over blotting paper, spread to at least 75 per cent of the territory.

The government has been a passive bystander as Maulana Fazlullah has continued to perpetrate brutality on the people of Swat. As a consequence 80,000 girls no longer attend schools and 8,000 teachers are without employment because female education and emancipation are unacceptable to the false creed of the Taliban. The situation is further compounded by mass resignations, desertions and the exodus of security officials from this picturesque region which was once an idyllic tourist spot.

Terrified by the possibility of annihilation, some politicians from the area have not only suggested negotiations with the Taliban but have also called for the withdrawal of the army. Such appeasement can only further embolden the militants. Maulana Fazlullah and other clerics have already declared that they will continue to wage war against the state till an ‘Islamic emirate’ is established and Sharia is imposed as the law of the land.

The imposition of Sharia is easier said than done and is beyond the ken of these semi-literate extremist elements. Scores of learned ulema, subscribing to various schools of Islamic thought, were not even able to come forward with an agreed criteria for determining who is or is not a Muslim before the Munir Committee of 1953, leave aside such complex issues as the interpretation of Islamic law.

Of the Quran’s 6,247 verses only 100 deal with ritual practices, 70 with civil laws, 30 with penal laws and 20 with jurisprudence. For all other forms of legislation, the Quran only emphasises the need of being just. This, therefore, leaves ample scope for legislatures in Muslim countries to enact laws that conform to contemporary requirements and modernity. The logic behind this is that the needs of various societies, people and times influence the perception of what is just and what is not.

Contrary to what the militants claim, colonial-era laws in force in Pakistan do not militate against the canons of justice and, therefore, cannot be considered un-Islamic. In 1981 Gen Ziaul Haq created the Federal Sharia Court for the purpose of examining all prevalent laws in the country and determining if any of them violated the injunctions of Islam.

The court, accordingly, examined laws dating as far back as 1841 but could hardly find anything violative of Islamic tenets in them. Ironically the few provisions that were considered un-Islamic were the ones that had been enacted after 1947.

In the early 1980s, the federal government also attempted to bring the law of evidence in line with Islamic tenets. A revised draft of the law of evidence was sent to the four provinces for their views. The deposed Justice Khalilur Rahman Ramday of the Supreme Court, whose historic judgment of July 20, 2007 reinstated Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry, was one of the few asked to review the draft.

In a recent interview he highlighted his observations on the revised draft to the effect that there had been no substantive amendment to the laws except for the name and renumbering of the provisions. This futile exercise was undertaken because a few people close to President Ziaul Haq had convinced him that the Evidence Act of 1872 was un-Islamic. When they were asked to make the required revisions, they merely reproduced the provisions of the act verbatim, renumbered them and renamed it as the Qanoon-i-Shahadat Ordinance of 1984. This was intellectual dishonesty at its worst.

The imposition of draconian laws which the Taliban claim to be in accordance with Islamic tenets further reaffirms that their skewed interpretation of religious doctrine is far removed from a moderate reading of Islamic injunctions. Vandalism, banning of girl’s education and brutal suppression of any ideological opposition are alien to religious principles promoting tolerance, humanity and peace.

Interior Adviser Rehman Malik has declared in parliament that Swat will be reclaimed in a matter of days and that the militants will be flushed out of the area. General Ashfaq Kayani’s visit to Swat and the subsequent military operations indicate a commitment beyond empty rhetoric, which was the case in respect to Parachinar some months earlier. The pacification of Swat, however, will not be complete unless military action is followed through with the ideological defeat of the Taliban and their sympathisers amongst segments of the religious right in the country.

The writer is editor-in-chief of Criterion Quarterly.
 
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I think it just needs better education. Less of this foreign ideology. Swat has a great pre-Islamic history. Military action is only a temporary solution, and not really a solution at all.
 
Army operations are just adding to the misery, and increasing hatred.

There is a great difference between Loyalty to the State, and Loyalty to the Government.

Swat's people, inclusive of the militants are loyal Pakistanis. They all accept the Writ of the State of Pakistan.

BUT they do not accept the writ of the Corrupt and Slavish Government of Pakistan, which does not have its writ even in Islamabad. Our President, Army Chief, Prime Minister et al follow the dictation of low level US Government and CENTCOM officials.
 
"Our President, Army Chief, Prime Minister et al follow the dictation of low level US Government and CENTCOM officials."

Those are pretty slanderous, and even traitorous comments without SERIOUS substantiation that goes beyond the simple accusation.

Uncalled for and really, really unacceptable...and I'm not even Pakistani.

Nobody deserves to be under the type of sweeping but unsubstantiated indictment offered by you here.:angry:
 
Those are pretty slanderous, and even traitorous comments without SERIOUS substantiation that goes beyond the simple accusation.

Uncalled for and really, really unacceptable...and I'm not even Pakistani.

Nobody deserves to be under the type of sweeping but unsubstantiated indictment offered by you here.:angry:

I believe the crime of 'treason', albeit ideologically, has been committed several times by Anwar already - such condemnation is unlikely to shame him.

You are after all talking to a fellow who would have his own State, that he served and took an oath of allegiance to, overthrown by a bunch of fanatics. And would likely smile and watch if the senior military and civilian leadership was lined up and shot by those barbarian thugs.

Oath of allegiance for armed services:

“I, do hereby solemnly swear that I will bear true faith and allegiance to Pakistan and uphold the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan which embodies the will of the people, that I will not engage myself in any political activities whatsoever and that I will honestly and faithfully serve Pakistan in the Pakistan army by and under the law.”
 
””Those are pretty slanderous and even traitorous comments without SERIOUS substantiation that goes beyond the simple accusation””.

Yes, I do stand by my rather strong remarks. But these are the unfortunate facts of life.

Your point about substantiation is 100% valid. If Pakistan had a real and free judiciary Musharraf and probably 4 of his cronies would have been under trail for Treason. The agreements entered with FBI, CIA, and CENTCOM could have been produced as evidence. Natural justice relies on circumstantial evidence when access to hard documentation is denied or not possible.

How would you feel if you arrive at JFK from overseas and see a Chinese Immigration Officer manning a video camera and your facial minuteii being transmitted to Beijing in Real Time along with your travel records and personal details?

How will you feel when a Chinese UAV is getting Laser cueing from a US Army Officer and directing a Hellfire at your home in the USA?

How about a Mexican 3-star general walking into the White house and your president listening to his scolding on not putting enough Border Security agents on the border near Tijuana? Your Army chief is just taking notes for action?

How about your local Sheriff arresting you on suspicion of sympathizing with Dalai lama and handing you over to the Chinese for internment in Xingjiang for a few years without charge?

Tell me, if your president and your government entered into agreements with China, on fighting Chinese war against Tibetan Terror, would your opinion of your leaders be any different than mine?
 
"How would you feel if you arrive at JFK from overseas and see a Chinese Immigration Officer manning a video camera and your facial minuteii being transmitted to Beijing in Real Time along with your travel records and personal details?

How will you feel when a Chinese UAV is getting Laser cueing from a US Army Officer and directing a Hellfire at your home in the USA?

How about a Mexican 3-star general walking into the White house and your president listening to his scolding on not putting enough Border Security agents on the border near Tijuana? Your Army chief is just taking notes for action?

How about your local Sheriff arresting you on suspicion of sympathizing with Dalai lama and handing you over to the Chinese for internment in Xingjiang for a few years without charge?

Tell me, if your president and your government entered into agreements with China, on fighting Chinese war against Tibetan Terror, would your opinion of your leaders be any different than mine?"


You've an oblique approach to defending treasonous words. Avoid the red herrings and rhetorical soap-box posturing, quit dissembling with America as your convenient bully-pulpit and make you case to your own citizens here-not me-and with something considerably more compelling than the swill you've just offered up.

We're it me, I'd ban you. I can't believe you're still here. If I'd said such stark words specifically against your nation's key leadership and only offered your windbag defense, I'd be long gone and deservedly so.

That's my opinion.
 
In regards to the corruption in Pakistan's military "top brass" and Fmr. Gen Musharraf...



Musharraf has compromised Pakistan's national integrity and defense, he has privatized Pakistan's gas & natural oil reserves so foreign companies and foreign countries can purchase them and control them for example Gazprom a (Russian state enterprise oil company), he withdrew support for the Kashmiri cause, he withdrew funding, training, and moral and logisitical support to the Kashmiri Mujahideen, (he even went to the extent of suggesting sharing Kashmir through a co-op government with India to reside over Kashmir), he has ordered the kidnapping of many Pakistani citizens (many who pose no threat) and had them deported to the USA for torture and interrogation, he has leased Pakistanis military bases (Dalban and Shabaz bases) in Balochistan and post to the US Military/Special Forces and CIA to gather intelligence in the region.

In fact the Chinese, Pakistan's trusted ally have complained to Pakistan about this (leasing military bases to US and CIA). YES Musharraf has withdrawn military for Kashmiri Fighters, because he is obeying Western Orders, George Bush once called Musharraf and told him to stop supporting terrorism in Kashmir, The Kashmiri Freedom cause is Not Terrorism but Liberation from oppression, nonetheless Musharraf obeyed Bush's order.

Here are some sources you might want to visit:

1) http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/374493/russian_firm_keen_to_tap_into_pakistans_oil_gas_sector/index.html

2)
Reports of increased US operations in Pakistan go back to March 2004, when two air bases - Dalbandin and Shahbaz - in Pakistan were the focus for extensive movements to provide logistical support for Special Forces and intelligence operations
Link:http://www.atimes.com/atimes/central_asia/gc30ag01.html

3)
General Musharraf recently banned 13 militant outfits in an ongoing crackdown against religious militancy, including Kashmiri militant groups.
Link:http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1229/p07s01-wosc.htm

4)
"General Musharraf has now betrayed the Kashmiris after ditching the Taliban in Afghanistan," said a veteran militant. His feelings are shared by most Kashmiri militants, who have depended for over a decade on the Pakistan army's active support for their cross-border guerrilla actions. -Zaid Hussain
Link: http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsJune2002/cover1june.htm

President Musharraf's decision to cut off support for Pakistan-based Islamic militant groups came some 10 days ago as the heightened tension with India raised fears of a nuclear war in the region. Intense pressure from the United States and other countries also forced Musharraf to pull back.- Zaid Hussain
Link: http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsJune2002/cover1june.htm

A few months ago Pres. Musharraf declared "Emergency" or Martial law in Pakistan, he said because terrorist and extremist are causing instability and pose danger to the country. So why did he then arrest the laywers, why did he illegally remove the Supreme Court Justices Iftikar Chaudhry, Why did he arrest peace activist and had them beaten by his police. When the purpose of the Emergency was to defend the country from terrorist as Musharraf said on national television.

There is one big thing I credit Musharraf for is the economy. From 2003-2007 Pakistan had an average GDP growth rate of 7.0%! In 2004 Pakistan had a GDP growth rate of 8.4% the second highest in Asia right behind China in that year. Musharraf brought technocrats with experience to manage the economy, he helped attract foreign investors, The Gwadar Port is perhaps is greater infrastructure cause.

Source:
Pakistan's economy grew at an average rate of almost 7.0 percent per annum during the last five years, and real GDP grew strongly at 7.0 percent during its fiscal year ending June 30 as against the revised estimates of 6.6 percent for last year, according to the Economic Survey 2006-07 released in Islamabad Friday.- Xinhua
Link: http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200706/09/eng20070609_382539.html

Source:
Pakistan’s real GDP growth was 6.4% in fiscal year 2003-04 that went up to 8.4% in fiscal year 2004-05 and the IMF has projected that Pakistan’s GDP growth will be around 6.3% in current fiscal year 2005-06 and 6.5% in 2006-07. -Sajid Chaudry
Link: http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006\01\25\story_25-1-2006_pg5_16

Though I understand Gen. Musharraf in the wake of 9/11 became a prisoner of circumstance, he made quite a wise decision (for the time being) to move against the Taliban & Al Qaeda so the US would not invade Pakistan as well...

Dep. Secretary of State. Richard Armitage according to Pakistani ISI Chief at the time mentioned that Armitage said "prepared to be bombed back to the stone age" if Pakistan did not cooperate on the WoT, so much for the "coalition of the willing", when really the US uses blackmailing, threatening genocide, and war...


Hence if you believe being a corrupt leader of your nation is an act of betrayal then yes he did betray the Nation on many fronts...






Grand Slam....
 
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If Pakistan had a real and free judiciary Musharraf and probably 4 of his cronies would have been under trail for Treason. The agreements entered with FBI, CIA, and CENTCOM could have been produced as evidence. Natural justice relies on circumstantial evidence when access to hard documentation is denied or not possible
Anwar Sahab, You remember that

"Phhool ki patti sey kat sakta hey pathar ka jigar
Mard e nadan par kalam e narm o nazuk be asar"

There is no point arguing with a 'mard e nadan'.
 
"Our President, Army Chief, Prime Minister et al follow the dictation of low level US Government and CENTCOM officials."

This is called 'freedom of speech' isn't it? When western media and libral fascists insult our religion and our Prophet, nobody protests. Because then it is the matter of the 'freedom of speech'. When we criticize our leaders and right so, all of a sudden this becomes slanderous and traitorous comments. What double (or God knows how many) standards.
 
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I would not call Musharraf a traitor to Pakistan but corrupt he is...
Well we are interesting nation. We even burried people like Yahya Khan with the full military honour. We should change the definition of 'traitor'. Needless to say more.
 
Dep. Secretary of State. Richard Armington according to Pakistani ISI Chief at the time mentioned that Armington said "prepared to be bombed back to the stone age" if Pakistan did not cooperate on the WoT, so much for the "coalition of the willing", when really the US uses blackmailing, threatening genocide, and war...
Armitage says he never said the United States would bomb Pakistan if the country didn't help in the fight against the Taliban and al-Qaida, as Pakistan President Musharraf told CBS' 60 Minutes.

Armitage says he spoke with Pakistan's after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001 -- but that he did not, as Musharraf, has stated, threaten to bomb Pakistan "back into the Stone Age."

Instead, Armitage says, he told Pakistan's top intelligence official on Sept. 12, 2001, that Pakistan would have to decide if it were "with us or against us" in the American effort to confront al-Qaida and the Taliban.

"It would be completely out of character for me to threaten the use of military force when I was not authorized to do so," Armitage says. "I don't command aircraft and could not make good on such a threat."

President Bush, who hosted President Musharraf in Washington Friday, has said the first he heard of the alleged threat was when he saw recent media reports about it.

Melissa Block talks with Armitage, who was the Deputy Secretary of State in 2001.

First of all, it might never had happened. Secondly, even if Armitage had threatened General Mahmud (than ISI chief), Mushrraf should have not lost his nerves. This incident (if it ever happened) right there suggests that Mushrraf was anybody but a leader.

There is an interesting article by Eric Margolis at http://www.lewrockwell.com/margolis/margolis52.html
 
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Lets us pray for Pakistan and Our beloved ARMY
You didn't mention pray to whom? Allah or America? If this is resolved somehow, everything will be OK.

Ye Aik sajda Jisay tou Giran Samajhta hay
Hazar Sajday say Dayta hay Admi ko Nijat
 
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