Swat Operation II

[Skywalker]

Dear ejaz007: You stated:
“” The book Military Incorporated has become disputed due to the reported links of the author with Indian high commission in Pakistan””.

As if having links with the Indian Consulate is such a great sin!.

Dr. Ishrat ul Ibad, the Governor of Sind was in the payroll of Indian High Commission in London along with several hundred MQM activists for almost seven (7) years from 1993-2000. It took Musharraf 3-4 years to get the guys “rehabilitated”.

Can you provide us the prove please or any links which justify youir comments???

 

[waraich66]

lol..ignorance is bliss

Just passing comment for sake of comment , let us know your views or ideas ,other wise wastage of time ,any how your thanks record is impressive keep it up LOL

 

[Anwar2]

enigma947:

I have lived in Bahrain for just a few years. I have served for a while in Keil, Sharda area and know what am I talking about. Life can be great if you adopt your lifestyle to the environment and make local friends.

Military Cantonments do bring some accrued benefits to the local population, when they are not in designated combat zones against the local population. Just to drive the point Razmak and Wana are Cantonments since early 1920’s. What tangible benefits did they bring to Waziristan?

Army’s Primary mission is the defense of homeland against external threats. Panu Aqil is a strategic gap filler in a void along with our eastern border which was realized after the ill fated operation of Maj Gen Mustafa in the Jaisalmir salient in the 1971 war. But such cantonments in NWFP and Balochistan are a horrible mutilation of national interests. They are proposed only to perpetuate the old of British Royal Indian Army under the new US sponsored role for India as a regional power, with PA serving as a tool.

“”And BTW, the soldiers and junior officers are quite happy with their pay checks, as they have large amount of 'shame'””.
No they are NOT!. Our Mr 10% Zardari is on record that I cannot make my soldiers fight fior a paltry Rs 5000 paycheck, whereas Taliban pay Rs 9000! The money paid in bribes to Star-officers is better spent on the Junior Officers, NCO’s and soldiers who actually face the hardships rather than haggling about plots or postings to lucrative assignments.

“”i have already asked this question from other people like you on this forum (but the were answer less) lets give you a chance: What do you suggest us to do? Both the govt and the Defense Services?””

Very Good Observation, and a GREAT Point!!. The answer is not simplistic.
The analysis is in simple steps:
1. USAF launched 108,000 missions during the first Gulf War 1991, peaking at about 5200 in one single day. About 1/3rd of Iraqi Air Force escaped to Iran, and 1/3rd was discovered buried in sand by the US forces in 2003. By comparison during the Afghan campaign 2001 the missions peaked at about 400 per day; mainly due to physical limitations involving a 7 hours transit from bases in the Gulf.
2. US had few assets on ground to prop us NA effectively. Even Hamid Kaezai and his crews had to operate from Quetta.
3. Pakistan is a Nuclear State thanks to heroes like Dr Abdul Qadeer Khan. Nuclear assets can be bombed out, but the element of uncertainty on the “missing weapons” creates a unacceptable risk that no one can afford.
4. The Indian “furious gyrations” to the USA were basically psych ops orchestrated by Zalmay Khlailzad.

Therefore the threat “Pakistan will be bombed into the Stone Age” was pure baloney. I am absolutely sure some of the rare brilliant Generals knew this, Jamshed Gulzar Kiyani is on the record.

The Bottom line is that the USA wanted to fight the Afghan campaign on the very Cheap. Pakistan could refuse to cooperate pretty much comfortably citing internal opposition.

Now lets throw the Islamic fraternity aside and focus on pure economics. Supposing our Military leadership decided to milk the US. Then at least we could have charged the right price. Out of the estimated US$ 300 b annually spent by the US on WoT, Pakistan was paid paltry reimbursable to the tune of about US$ 1.2 b / year. This is even less than Zakat!

Now Pakistan is suffering losses of about US$ 10 b / year, and likely to be paid a princely US$ 1.5 b as reimbursable. Are we really those big philanthropists or those great suckers! Our Generals were very happy being paid the “booty” for a few thousand dollars handing over every bearded person for Guantanmo Bay.

Instead of defending the national sovereignty / honor, Musharraf leadership decided to Pimp us. OK Fine …. But at least charge the right price!!! Even hookers have some business acumen.

 

[ajpirzada]

this WoT was all BS or i should call it a topi drama. but the problem now is that we are stuck in it and therefore need to find a way out. musharraf should never have called in PA. however it wasnt this which started attacks. attacks started when civilians in tribal areas got killed. i remember around 60 mehsuds died in one of the air attacks (not sure if it was a drone attack). next day at funneral same thing happened and another 40 ppl died. this was the first ever attack carried out on pakistanis.
if u go back and study some history, ull find mehsuds being the most warrior kind of a tribe amongst all other. this incident made them lift arms against pak army coz pak army was seen one supporting americans in afghanistan (in other words killing innocent ppl). later when their attacks increased gov decided to use force rather than talk to them and calm them down.
now the situation is so bad that u cant simply rely on force or talks. u have to use both inorder to get things under ur control.
also there is indian factor there as well. those who are blowing up schools are not the so called talibans (thats wat i think). now if we somehow manage to differentiate bw tribals (or talibans as the world knows them) and these indian sponsered terrorists, this war will become a lot more easier for us.
as far as those fightin in swat are concerned, their only cause is to get shariah law implemented. if we implement shariah law in swat, fuzlullah and his ppl will stop fightin the army and those left will be the outsiders who are only there to create chaos. then we will be able to see them and hunt them down. if we continue killing everyone, we will only end up killing civillians.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Dear Agnostic:

Pardon me. I have purposely refrained from using the word “Islam” in my posts as far as possible (though sometimes it is inevitable). After having challenged Allah that fateful night in the summer of 2007 when 300 mainly Pashtun girl students were evaporated into clouds of incendiaries and phosphorous, what Islam are we talking about.

That allegation has been clearly shown to be a lie, yet you insist on repeating it without any supporting evidence.

Such comfort with distorting the truth and slandering the one institution standing in the way of the Tyranny of the Mullah is what is immoral, not protecting the state from terrorists such as those in the Lal Masjid. Some innocents were killed (though nowhere close to the numbers you brandish and all from one ethnic group wouldn't you know! Earlier they were all from Swat! Any lie to justify terrorism I see), but the blame for that falls entirely on Mullah Ghazi, and his refusal to surrender.

Th absurd lies of you and your like are what has given some commentators in the West so much ammunition for distorting the definition of Takkiyah, and claiming all Muslims follow that distorted definition.

Slime like Ali Sina and Hirsi Ali have people like you in mind when they tarnish, denigrate and ridicule Islam.

 

[Pashtun]

I ran out of arguments? exactly how old are you? I didn't start with the rants, you did. you specifically accused me of "loving the top brass" and so on, totally ignoring the ground realities just because I live in the US-which should make no difference since you're living here too. you sure do have a big mouth for criticizing the west, whilst living here. don't worry I won't use different IP addresses across the US and Canada

Well, you didn't really reply to any of my arguments, instead of whining again. And yeah I don't live in the U.S. (get it in your head already) But yes, I do use different IPs for several personal reasons and you are certainly not the one I would like to discuss those reasons with.

However I assure you that I am a red blooded living breathing talking walking half Yusufzai (swat) and Half Afridi (Khyber Agency/Peshawar) who maintains a large family in both locations on the ground and 99% of my (immediate and extended) family lives right in Swat and Peshawar and is directly affected with this operation just as millions others. I never give that much personal information on public forums, but certainly your cheap shots knows no limits, so I had to satisfy the query at hand.

So now can we move back to the real matter instead of scratching my back?

did the tyrant dictators stash up $200 million dollars for the french Mirage aircraft deal? name me one "tyrant dictator" that tops the richest in Pakistan list. bring me one army "jurnail" who has assets worth $2 billion dollars or more spread all throughout the world. I've told you already, there is corruption in the army, it's not limited or focused on one level or rank, it's everywhere. corruption is a part of everyone's life in Pakistan, yes... when it comes to corruption, our people just know too well. still, corruption in the army is no where near the staggering amount of money politicians you elect have stolen.

Has there been any 'tyrant dictators' ever brought to court for accountability? One can only imagine where did General Akhtar Rahman got his billions from that transferred to his son now who had been under limelight. Do you know anything about it? perhaps you'd be able to tell me the source of that money and we can further discuss (only if you stick to discussion instead of suggesting things to me).

People have written rebuttals to her claims, well researched papers have been published to counter those claims, this forum has even had lengthy discussions on the book. this same Ayesha Siddiqa was unable to answer questions in some of her own press conferences. people have even gone as far as accusing her of working for British interests. of course, for people like you, this would be ISI propaganda. her information is exaggerated, her claims are far-fetched. needless to say, it's still a good read for you since you are just itching to find something to criticize upon.

Have they? who are those people who wrote rebuttals regarding the book? Did they provide proofs contrary to the proofs provided in the book? Do you realize she worked in the audit dept. of Lahore Cantt and a first woman director of naval office? Why she was made a big gun when there were links to britain and all? Is PA that naive and panetratable? or is it under control of the west so they can insert their people in PA by force? Regardless of the matter, do you deny Army does not have businesses inside Pak, from guns to cereals to rented properties?

Furthermore, you implied there aer british and american interests in destroying the army with such propoganda and stuff, so why army is in bed with them with all the aid, WoT and other stuff, knowing they are up for their destructino in the first place? is there any part of army that is working for britain/america?

I think you need to go see a psychologist... paranoia is a very serious condition, you should immediately go seek help. a few words to calm a patient like you, "don't worry, no one is out to get you... it's okay, everything's going to be alright...we're all with you"

Thank you for the suggestion. Now can you reply what we were arguing about to which you replied with this suggestion? thank you

seriously, are you trying to tire us out? I can see people are giving up on replying to you, and don't think you've made a point. senior members, on average, can go on for a long time when it comes to healthy discussions. with you, unfortunately, it's like trying to talk to a rock or a volleyball named "Wilson".

I don't think you are tired of hurling insults. Perhaps you haven't noticed, there hadn't been really any healthy discussion from your end. All you are telling me that I should say "yes sir" to whatever you say, as you once claimed only you can give us such news about things you claim.

ooohhh... I'm in so much shock and awe. I'm sorry I shouldn't have said anything about the brave afghan warriors. NATO has packed their bags and left, there are no foreign troops on afghan soil, and the fighters have did it! the mujahideen are still existant today, they did not fight and kill each other after the soviets left, and they managed to beat the Soviets all by themselves, without the help of the SSG and ISI, without the help of the US, UK, China. They defeated the Soviets, who at that time were at the climax of their power, their economy was strong. so sorry sir!

Talk about healthy discussion. Did you even pay attention to what I replied to what you just said again here? What part of my post that clearly tried to explain the different resistance movements take different amount of time, you could not understand? Even tho I asked if you are telling me that they are all alone again (as you said before a lot of ppl were on their side)? where's the reply to my response with logic and reasoning and proofs (that you ask everyone else for)?

oh my, I'm so sorry sir! I'm so ignorant, forgive me!

That's ok.

baseless, western accusations of the ISI "secretly" helping terrorists. all attempts to pressure Pakistan. why not join the indians when they were blabbering about the ISI secretly controlling the govt. after the Mumbai attack drama. Military Inc. is a fictional book for indians and Ganja and Bhutto lovers, nothing more.

Well as I asked you earlier, what kind of proofs are you looking for regarding Military intervention in GoP? You didn't answer. I even asked you the types of proofs I could think of, you didn't even answer to that. Yet you are shooting down everything without argument, without logic, without reasoning, without (your own proofs), so just by saying that "its a baseless propoganda", doesn't help here. Denial is not a river in pakistan, Assad.

Secondly by telling me to join India to blabber about PA, you are again telling me that Military is beyond criticism from their own people. Why don't you just say it straight up front? Why do you have to hide behind the words. I mean come on, do yourself an honest favour.

Lastly, throwing a fit about ISI by calling some people terrorists where (one man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist), you are contradicting yourself from your earlier stand, where you said ISI is helping Chechans, arabs and kashmiris and this n that. So they are not terrorists? The point here is, they are terrorists for other people, not for us. Just as RAW is helping someone against us is not terrorists for them, but terrorists for us. So please pick your words wisely, so you don't contradict yourself.

yes! why don't we have a poll, hell, why don't we ask everyone here? go ahead, ask the mods to start up a poll. why ask them only, why not ask the politicians? why not ask the awaam of Pakistan, the peoples' voice!

Why should I ask the Mod? you are the one who wanted to have a poll isn't it? then why are you asking me to ask them for a poll? I am the one who is telling you that every other person in Pakistan will tell you military controls the country. You didn't believe me, and suggested we should have a poll and I said voila, do your research, ask people and get yourself answered, and yet you are twisting it back again and asking me that why not ask the awaam? nice!

as for me, just ignore me, I'll be here watching the participating in the poll myself. if anyone knows how to tire people out with his/her energetic self, it's definitely you Pashtun! I'm afraid, I can't understand logic anymore and my intellect has dried up.

I would ignore you if you just tell me to ignore you instead of addressing me with insults in every reply in response to what I had been asking constantly and yet you had to answer 90% of the stuff that you conveniently ignored and moved on with your insults and suggestions for seeing doctors and asking personal questions etc.. Perhaps you are right, your intellect has dried up.

Trust me, I'd ignore you, if you'll ask just for that. If you make accusations against me by calling me anti-pakistan, anti-army, pro-militant (tho I challenged you to prove that but you twisted that one as well), if you accuse me for the things I never said, if you assign things to me by syaing I am saying them - I will reply back as long as you keep on with your golden words.

However, you asked me how old I am? I am in my mid 30s.

P.S. You owe me a lot of answers/replies from previous posts. Should I be waiting for your reply or you refuse to address my questions (which you deem are wrong anyway so I suppose you have the correct answers)?

 

[Solomon2]

Has there been any 'tyrant dictators' ever brought to court for accountability? One can only imagine where did General Akhtar Rahman got his billions from that transferred to his son now who had been under limelight.

Accountability hasn't happened for the simple reason that corruption is the reason for Pakistan in the first place: the creation of a state where the Muslim leadership of India could skim public funds for its own benefit, rather than seeing all such monies skimmed by the majority Hindu leadership instead. Had Congress been more willing to divide the public pie there might have been no need to create a separate Pakistan.

 

[Kasrkin]

It must be awfully stressful to defend the indefensible.

You and your friends would know more about that than I would obviously, so I’ll take your word for it.

As Pakistani citizens and taxpayers we feel concerned and disgusted with the wastage and decay of this once prime institution.

So when was it exactly that your ‘corrupt’ institution was in its ‘prime’? Obviously according you not when Ayub Khan was the chief. So you must be talking about when the British were in control since Ayub was the first Pakistani chief.

The decay reached free fall proportions during the Musharraf years. After having thrown Kashmiris to the wolves and having solved the Kashmir issue through “Bhutanization” and Capitulation, there is no real mission left for the PA. The primary National Defense mission of PA has been substituted with WoT, now Pakistan and India are both on the same side with one common enemy; namely “Taliban and AQ Terrorists”.

I swear to God you make me laugh and shock me at the same time. I can give you a thousand reasons why any of the above BS is not true like the fact that the PA is still primarily organized, trained and equipped to deal with a large conventional army i.e. India (much to the annoyance of our American friends), this orientation has also cost us lives and will continue to do so BUT still despite obvious compulsions there is no indication that we plan to compromise on our deterrence capacity against India. I can point out that all the political parties including MMA have ranted about Musharraf’s failure to achieve lasting peace with India and about how they can do a better job. I can point out that officially or legally Pakistan has not compromised one bit on the Kashmir cause, only the tactical withdrawal of military support to Kashmiri insurgents. Which, BTW, when it was going on your sort never really appreciated anyway.

r incompetent and corrupt generals are fantasizing about emulating the great exploits of Edwardes, Lokhart, Durand, Minroe, Sandamen and Winston Churcill.

What retarded BS I swear to God I don't get how anyone can be so naïve and then claim to be a patriot. All text, literature, footage, trends indicate that the Pakistan military hierarchy considers excessive military pressure on the tribal areas akin to stirring a hornet’s nest. These ‘corrupt fantasizing’ generals went as far as to try and convince American officials of the harsh realities of the region and the violent backlash and other consequences of indulging in an unbalanced campaign. But why should they listen when you, a Pakistani, think everything the PA says is crap and don’t listen either? There is not one interview where any Pakistani general has said that we can win this war without complete support from the tribal people. You have NO proof, not even the most rudimentary indications to confirm all this rhetorical nonsense you make, and everyone can see that. All we can do is feel sorry for you.

Our Jawans and NCO’s are being motivated with the pep talk of defending the great Indian hinterland from the marauding tribesmen.

Are you crazy? You are degrading any credibility you might have had left in front of people who have even mildest amounts of understanding or affiliation with the said matters. Now what can I say to complete utter lowly pathetic un-credible BS like that? But I do wanna know, why so much hate? WHY are you so intent on believing the worst of your own service-men. This BS even stretches my formidable perceptions. This is too vulgar and pathetic even for drawingroom-talk. Even 15 year old posters here provide more reason and logic for their theories than you do. This is a Swat thread, stop trolling around already. Also in 65 people like you didn’t exist either, they were behind their forces when 2 brigades of the PA went into Bajour to deal with an earlier tribal insurrection there which they managed to do within weeks. Also Asghar Khan was Chief of Air Staff under Ayub Khan's leadership, and you and your friends think that Ayub and his military is the worst thing that happened to Pakistan. The PAF was able to perform the way it did because of Ayub's alliance with the US which gave the PAF a fair chance against a much larger and expensive Indian force (fairer than they would have had anyway). Hypocrisy exposed eh?

We are NOT Allies, we are Camp followers. Our status is no different than the Maharaja of Patiala Forces that made sterling contributions to Gen Elphinston Campaign to Afghanistan (1840).

Again no reasoning, no justification, no perspective and no proportion. Anwar 2 you’re really wasting our time now.

Oh let me guess, you agree with Solomon2 too now? Because his uneducated and biased opinion is no worse than yours actually.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Accountability hasn't happened for the simple reason that corruption is the reason for Pakistan in the first place: the creation of a state where the Muslim leadership of India could skim public funds for its own benefit, rather than seeing all such monies skimmed by the majority Hindu leadership instead. Had Congress been more willing to divide the public pie there might have been no need to create a separate Pakistan.

Oh please - Jinnah was a man on his deathbed towards the culmination of British rule, yet that was the time his efforts for Pakistan were strongest.

It is true that had the Congress leadership been more willing to share power, and accept the Muslim League demand of a Federation with extensive autonomy for the provinces, Muslim misgivings and concerns could have been assuaged. Instead they opposed both, and their opposition to the second point especially, that of a federation with autonomy for the constituent units, was the most damning of all.

Keep your Zionist nonsense to yourself - just becasue it fits Israel doesn't mean the same argument is applicable to Pakistan.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes, it seems so. At first, he came across as having been located in Swat with personal knowledge of Swat. I thought he was offering a genuine "local" Swati perspective. He says he is from Peshawar in his introduction. But, Agnostic Muslim disclosed that his logon IP addresses are mostly in Canada and one in the US. He seems impervious to reasoned argument. So, now I question whether he does know anything about Swat, firsthand. He seems to be in love with the most outrageous claims of the most far out conspiracy sites. Trying to understand the logic of his posts has become a giant waste of time. There is no logic.

Same here.I thought he is from Swat.

Please, as I said before, lets not make someones location an issue here. My only objective in pointing out Pashtun's location was in response to his criticism of some of us on the basis of our location in the US.

That said, there is no reason to not believe him when he says that his aunt was killed, or that his family suffered, and for that he has our deepest sympathies.

His arguments about the ineffectiveness of the military in Swat have been corroborated by various sources, so there his facts are not falsified, and the information he provides is appreciated.

Where many of us disagree with him is on his interpretation of events in Swat, and the facts that he has presented about the Lal Masjid incident. There his or Anwar2's claims are not corroborated by most credible open source information, and rumor, innuendo and conspiracy theories do not count.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

AM, absent religious rule and civic consciousness, how do you propose to fight corruption?

Civic consciousness is present amongst Pakistanis. I suppose you are referring to the lack of it in the ruling class and bureaucracy - there change will only come as institutions mature and people become more informed. That will only occur with time and continuity.

No quick fixes here I am afraid, though those advocating an "Islamic Revolution' woudl disagree I am sure.

 

[Solomon2]

What does it mean, "as institutions mature"?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

What does it mean, "as institutions mature"?

What I was getting at was that Political parties and governments will actually have to plan for the next elections, show results etc. Currently many would argue that the sentiment still is that the PPP led GoP will not last, and that we will slip back into the cycle we were in. As such there is little incentive to focus on long term goals and 'selling the party to the people', improving institutions and governance etc.

If this government lasts, despite all the chaos and instability, and we have free and fair elections again, I believe a change in both people and politicians will start to occur. The hope is that the continuity and fairness of the democratic process will draw back the disenchanted electorate (given we have only had 2 free and fair elections), encourage the newer 'Middle Class' based parties, and put pressure on the established ones.

The growth of the private media, especially electronic, in content and reaching out to more people, will also play a key role as part of the entire process, in creating a more informed and active electorate. In fact it already has played a significant part - the pressure brought to bear on Musharraf domestically would not have been possible without the media, and without its refusal to bow to his demands on content.

Thats the general idea I have of how the Pakistani political process might evolve.

 

[Pashtun]

>>Its very ironic. Anyone having a different point of view is dubbed as "Anti-Pakistan and Anti-Army". Why is that, I wonder?

Your PoV is indeed 'different', different as it is from itself as it is from those who'd seek to preserve Pakistan's self-respect and ideological integrity. I label your rhetoric Anti-PA because there is not one thing you said that acknowledges their sacrifice and contribution to this great nation, which they give to this very day. And the highest order of sacrifice is blood. Even in the worst days of the Iraq War, not even the bitterest American Bush critic would dare say that American soldiers are dying in vain. And not only do you and your friends do it so casually, you go further than that calling them mercenaries, slaves, camp followers, etc. You attribute all kinds on nonsense like arrogance, greed, incompetence, cowardice to them just because they fight peace/nation/harmony destroying entities like Al-Qaeda and TTP and then you wonder why we think you’re Anti-Pakistan and Anti-Army?

Preserving Pakistan's respect and dignity is not in hiding the corruption under the carpet. That is the core reason our country did not succeed because we let these blood sucking leeches get away with their crimes by defending them, by hiding their corruption and by (unintentionally/intentionally) supporting them for thinking that its a matter of dignity for our country.

I believe the nations rise when they are ready to question the wrongs of anybody in the ruling class. I believe nations rise when they accept their mistakes. (Be it on civilian end or a rulers end.)

So yes, we differ in our opinion.

>>It is as much as my country as much as yours. The Army is as much as mine as much as yours.

And yet your words and claims are more akin to an Indian troll than a proud Pakistani. It maybe your army in the most technical sense, but if your attitude is anything to go by it’s easy to see why you rather disown them. Instead of expressing a balanced, constructive, well researched PoVs, yours is completely one sided, sweeping, naïve and uneducated. A typical attribute of Mullahs in the Pakistani society.

Ignoring the insults you too had started, I guess you failed to read my stand, maybe because you didn't have time to read, or maybe becuase you are just angry fella and don't conceptually read what I had been saying. In either case, I'll repeat myself, no, I am very proud of my army, and as Anwar said and I quote:

PA is a national asset that has been abused and misused by Pakistan’s Military and Political leadership. As Pakistani citizens and taxpayers we feel concerned and disgusted with the wastage and decay of this once prime institution.

This is what I am questioning here too. Not the soldiers, who are laying their precious lives fighting someone else war.

>>>The only difference here is, you are either from Army or simply have allegiance, and hence blindly defending everything regarding that instituition.

Hm not really. The army is not perfect and any serving or retired member will tell you this. Only difference between you and me is that I rather see them do better. When I read or hear BS about them, I rather do some brainstorming and research about it myself before blindingly believing everything and cherishing that accusation. Also in tough situations, where things are complicated and unclear, I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt as opposed to any Indian or Afghan or terrorist because they are our armed forces after all.

And what makes you think that I didn't do any research before questioning the top brass who shoved our country in for fighting someone else war and the results are right in front of us, we are on verge of destruction because of those few elite boots that decided our fate for their petty interests of money and power.

>>No, sir, the country rise when people question the motives of the instituitions, the actions of the government, the wrongdoings of the institutions and demands transparency.

No, countries rise and fall when there is unity of purpose and sincerity of spirit. This moral superiority complex and talks of ‘transparency’ and ‘wrong doing’ is just an excuse when it comes to most Pakistan cynics. For you see I have a simple rule, you don’t criticize unless you have a better plan, an alternative suggestion because criticism for its own sake is pointless and counterproductive. So do you have any suggestions? Any ideas? Nope you just come here with same old emotional and uneducated rhetoric.

My plan is simple, stop the butchering of your own citizens for someone else. End this honeymoon with WoT. It has destroyed us. It is decaying every single foundation of ours. That is the core of the problem.

This all mess (insurgency within and from out) you see is started because someone up there decided to fight someone else illegal war on our soil by killing our women and children. Do you think people will not retaliate when you harm their families? do you think the enemy would not take the benefit when he will see you being engaged with civilian massacres? do you think the western pundits will not exploit the situation to bleed us?

There was no unity, no sincereity, no spirit to support that war (decision). How would you think that honeymoon with WoT would have risen our nation when we are killing our own citizens, just to make the masters happy?

When it comes to the PA your standards and expectations are utopian but your comprehension of their situation is non-existent. You also seem to ignore the realities of a tough and unfair world which is far from utopian either. You don’t have a word of displeasure for those whose evil agendas the PA is trying to fight, but the fact that the PA is fighting at all is a source of great anger for you.

You have no idea how much displeasure I hold for those whose war my country is fighting by shooting (or already shot) its own foot. One of the American guest (Truth Seeker) we have here already is on my case because he did not like how I confronted his country's imperial ideology that is destroying the world in general and my country in particular. If you still have some doubts, please do not hesitate to engage me in a discussion about american imperialism and I'll make sure your concern is taken care of.

>>There are precious lives of soldiers as well as civilians are being lost for some dictators who wanted to cling to his seat for the rest of his life and abused the army and the power.

Defending your country is not a waste of life. Far from it, and you pretend that the honor and lives of soldiers is important to you, but I know better. Yours is an inherited, primitive dislike for those of the soldiery profession.

That's just your assumption. You assert too much as I noticed. You question me, then you answer that yourself by cooking up things.

No, I hold the military profession very high, even if you believe that. My questioning of top brass in bed with US should not be misinterpreted. or else I wouldn't be saying these soldiers are laying their lives for fighting someone else war. As a amtter of fact, except 11 soldiers (killed by american war plane), none other were killed in defending their country, rather clashing with their own people for orders coming from top down.

In military term, defense of the country is from external threats, such as defending the borders. For internal threats it's the job of other security agencies.

Talk about defense, drone attacks are happening left n right, other countries even invaded our country and killed our women and children in the middle of the night by shooting them in the head, and we could not defend.

Why aren't we defending our country on that? Or laying your life to defend those attacks, is a waste?

Disowning of the PA by Pakistanis is nothing new, we are after all a very polarized society. In fact you don’t need very much to disown the PA nowadays, for many people the fact that the PA fired back in self-defense or tried to patrol a border is sufficient. The martial creed is considered a world apart, you don’t attribute any respect or understanding to the honors and responsibilities they carry. To you they’re just sub-human machines in uniform with guns lead by greedy leaders. WHAT EVER they do is always out of bounds in your view. Islam is also just another excuse for you to look down upon them without even knowing them.

People don't disown PA, they disown the very top brass acting on someone else orders. They dislike the actions of the PA against their own citizens. They dislike it when PA can't defend the borders, where dozen dosldiers killed and many civilians are daily under foreign attack, yet PA is more than happy to open a fire on civilians in a so called "self defense" rhetoric. Why?

I can see you’re not stupid enough to blame our young men and women (openly), but you still hate the Army.

And since I have not claimed any illwill against the soldiers (unless you provide a proof where I have said anything wrong about the soldiers but the top brass), you are in no position to tell me that I am looking down upon them. Your assertions can be kept to yourself and they are as good as your opinions. Assigning things to others that they have never said is not a good way to discuss things.

You basically accused them of being capable of little more than producing selfish, power-hungry, corrupt, disloyal generals and being a complete drag on the country. But nothing could be further from the truth, whatever Musharraf was, he was barely the level of dictatorship, cruelty and singular ambition we saw in Nawaz Sharif’s or Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s time on the helm.

They did produce power hungry, selfish and corrupt generals didn't they? Musharraf is a live example.

And would you be king enough to show me what Nawaz sharif have done to civilians? or ZA Bhutto, that can surpass the cruelity of Musharraf?

Musharraf inherited the country at a tough spot, perhaps the toughest we have faced ever. He made tough decisions and naturally he made mistakes. But corruption wise he was clean, and his policies were designed to be in Pakistan’s interests. People like you however played on the masses insecurities, their fears, their stereotypes, their frustrations, their emotions in this time of great hardship. And the result is, you legitimized these terrorists not only in the mind of your own people but in the mind of the terrorists themselves. It was a force multiplier for them and fatality corrosive for national interests and for those whose job it is to defend them.

I see you are a Musharraf's supporter. So if his policies, actions, and decisions were in the interest of the country, why is our country on the verge of destruction? why do our soldiers have to hide their identity and stopped wearing uniform (the uniform that we all are proud of)? If it wasn't his policies and decisions, then what did backfire and created this unpredecented gap between armed forces and civilian society?

I’ve known people like you before. If whatever ideals that dictate your view were to have prevailed and Pakistan had ended up ignoring or confronting the US then you would have accused the same PA of pitting us against an enemy we could not defeat. But since we tried to get our own house in order so instead you accuse the PA of being mercenaries for the US. If the PA protects the country’s integrity by fighting brutal Baloch warlords then you’d have said we’re killing our own people.

Atleast you confirmed that I am not the only one questioning the actions of the top brass, since you had known many before me. And you don't know anything about me, yet you question something and then answer on your own. Just for the record, I had been saying here I'll prefer dying on my feet by enemy hands, then living on my knees with my head on enemy's feet, or get killed from by the hands of the people sworn to protect me.

You talk about our strategies as if one like yourself is qualified enough to second guess these things. Then fine I challenge you. Come up with a better what in your mind is a strategy or a reasonable course of action. Here is the situation we faced 8 years ago: Al-Qaeda and allies; exiles from all over the world, battle hardened ruthless fighters with questionable allegiances to anything or anyone including Islam.

First of all there's nothing like Al-Qaeda. Stop fooling yourself. I am already under the impression that you are a mouthpiece for the west. Secondly, who are the allies? The ones that we trained and brainwashe don the name of islam to fight the soviets (again someone else war)?

Their loyalities were with us. They fought for us. We supported them. We nurtured them. And then we disowned them because a dictator decided to take a U-turn and turn our gurns to them. That's what happened. The problem lies from very top, not the bottom. We turned our guns towards them, who were our assets, for little money and power for certain people in our top brass. And look what happened to our country for those decisions. Now we are killing more to hide our corruption under the carpet. It ain't going to resolve anything.

It will take us down, believe me. We cannot fight someone's else war, who architectured the entire thing and dragged us right in it.

This is not a war for Al-qaeda or Terrorism. It's a war against ISLAM and for MONEY.

They flood into our unguarded borders in the tribal areas because they can’t face the might of a half hearted American campaign to oust them from Afghanistan; a country whose people don’t want them anymore. What do you do? Your country is under crushing sanctions, your enemies are rising, hoping to isolate, vilify and then eliminate your potentials. What do you do? I seriously wanna know. You forget your tribal areas? Let the tribes get compromised and infiltrated and eventually break away? What?

As I said, they (minus al-qaeda scapegoat) were our assets. They defended our borders from soviets. They had strong links across the borders with military who supported them throughout in Mujahideen shape and in Talibans shape. They did not run away from Americans. It's a strategy, sometimes you are on a backfoot, soemtimes on front foot. The fight is still on. Can't you see west claiming already they can't win the war? how can you say then those fighters ran away? No sir, we turned our guns on our own people. That's what we did.

And what do you do when you have a threat? you fight the enemy not join them into killing your own people for God's sake. Just as we were pressured from all over to let India attack, did we bow? no we did not. Then why on the other hand we bowed? obviously someone sold his soul to devil.

So Musharraf ‘killed people’ to ‘make America happy’ so he can ‘stay in power’ because ‘only America’ decides who stays in power, eh? I would expect this kind of nonsense from someone studying in a Madressah all his life (maybe I’m not wrong on that count after all). You attribute this monstrous malice to people, why? Do you check the moral credentials of yourself or those who do this accusing? Your primitive mentality will be the end of this country. This reckless unreasoning hate destroys things but doesn’t make anything. It is this attitude which made Musharraf’s job 10 times tougher than it should’ve been. And God knows it was tough enough already.

It's a general pereption of the country and a fact for everyone who research through unbiased eye, that america alter our leadership. America controls many things in our country including ISI DG appointments, which is the very famous one. A little googling on the matter will reveal a lot of analysis about this covert operation of America.

And yes, perhaps it is this attitude of defying dictators or those who are killing their own people by becoming accomplice with others for fighting their war, that made Musharraf go more tougher and start selling our citizens (if killign wasn't enough) on the name of terrorist suspects to Gitmo. Do you ahve any idea how many citizens are missing, for which our CJ took a stand and now he is out as well?

>>>If we are to keep on denying every wrongdoing of the certain institutions we have allegiances/associations with.

What ‘wrong doings’ and ‘crimes’ is the poor PA guilty of indulging in? By the standards of the rest of the country and the world anyway…Firing at a tribesman who fires at them is a CRIME for an Army patrolling the borders of its OWN country?

We already discussed what wrongdoings we are questioning of top brass so skipping that, Army is not suppose to be patrolling the borders in tribal lands as per the agreement (neither they were) and if they don't like the agreement, work it out and get a new agreement, but for now thats the agreement. They are not suppose to interfere in the tribal business. That's the agreement. F.C. and Political Agent is their mode of communication between the tribes and Govt./Army. The agreement states, the borders will be protected by the tribes (and they have for 60 years) and Army will focus on eastern side only.

Yet the agreement was broken and waziristan was attacked without provocation, on behest of someone esle who pushed us to attack our own people. So when you attack someone in tribal lands, expect an opposite or equal reaction. Expect that no debts will be left unpaid. That's how the things are there. So correct your information that they fired on army for patrolling the border, when army never patrols the border. And when army attacked waziristan for nothing but to make the masters happy by shoving our army there to conquer our own lands for someone else, whose ultimate (declared) goal is to occupy FATA.

Or going after guys who chop heads off hostages (innocent people and servicemen), blow up schools, ruin the country’s sovereignty in every sense of the word, who impose themselves on the average Pakistani through force of intimidation and arms, those who are an abomination to Islam and anathema to Jinnah’s vision for Pakistan? Are these the ‘crimes’ you talk about? No these are not crimes, it’s just your lack of civic sense and duty and non-existence of your national loyalty and vision.

Why the heads started to chop off? why the schools (only in swat btw) started to blow?

And talk about runing country's soverignty, whatever happen to drone attacks. I guess they are throwing flowers from across the border and not openly runing the soverignhty of the country?

Yes exactly what I’m talking about. You certainly remember and gleefully recite all the ‘crimes’ (highly exaggerated as it turned out) of the Pakistan Army in East-Pakistan. Something Indian text books and movies would, like you, high light beyond all accurate proportions.

Not really. I read the Hamood ur rahman commission report and other Pakistani official sources about how they reacted to bengali disobedience. I read General Yahya's orders that "Kill three million of them and rest will eat from our hands". I don't have access to indian text books, since I have never been there, neither I want to, nor I like what they say about our country. So reading their text books is out of questions.

But what about the pathetic amount of loyalty and faith displaced by the locals? What about nation-breaking treacherous scum like Mujahib and the Muktai Bahani? What about all their reckless hate and weakness through which they got manipulated by the enemy? Wasn’t 71 a lesson for us about why we should keep foreign poisonous ideologies like yours out of our country?

Mujib Ur rahman, whoever he was, won the most seats in bangladesh. Why did we refuse him what he earned? Rest is all your anger, so I don't want to get into a you said I said thing.

Wasn’t that reason for us to take a fierce ideological fight to those who advocate tribal, ethnic identity above nationality Mister ‘Pashtun’? Wasn’t that a reason for us to strengthen our borders and our people against infiltration and guard them jealously? Given our experiences, should we not be the first to call out those who advocate/justify/tolerate the actions of those who use internal violence as a tool for change?

why would you? Its beutiful to be a Punjabi, Sindhi, balochi or a Pakhtun. Beautiful cultures, languages, food, attire. Why would you want to put an end to such beautiful mixture of ethnical identities that are bonded in Pakistan already? That is the beauti of the Pakistan. And you want to destroy it? No wonder people feel alienated from eachother in our country.

You haven’t learned anything from 71, mainly because you don’t know anything about 71, only whatever it is that your Anti-Pakistani affiliates have told you. Which is that Pakistan has no right to defend its territorial sovereignty because the PA will forever be evil and can do nothing good, is that it?

My anti-Pakistan affiliates?... hmmm. Hamood Ur rahman was commissioned to write a report by GoP and approved by Military. Is it anti-pakistan affiliate?

People who might consider violence against the state should be taken to account from the start. Dhaka did not happen because the PA launched a counter-insurgency operation (in fact that saved Dhaka for longer than it would have) but because politicians like Bhutto and Mujhib tried to manipulate and lash the uneducated and emotional masses into a frenzy (much like what politicians are doing today).

Why would Mujib Ur Rahman tried to manipulate the masses, who already voted for him and he won majority from there? Why did we not accept Mujib Ur Rahman as part of our own country when he had a clear majority and decided to quell the majority?

Dhaka fell because India invaded due to our weakened military disposition which was because of weakened popular ideological perception which was due to politicians exploiting lack of singular vision and faith in the masses.

Dhakka fell because India found the opportunity in disdained bengalis who were oppressed by us. They cashed that gap between PA and the people of East Pakistan as an opportunity. It's our fault for providing such opportunity and that is why I brought up dhakka in the first place, that we are doing again the same thing, creating gap between armed forces and civilian masses. And the enemy will again cash this opporunity.

The country’s problems just won’t evaporate by blaming everything on the army and telling them to withdraw.

Actually I did not ask for withdraw from Swat. I asked for a surgial operation and stop in aerial bombardment and tank shelling. Which is not doing any good.

That in fact is the worst possible rhetoric you can make in a time of war, because it is counterproductive. What the PA needs now is the nation’s prayers, faith and support.

war with our own people? or war with eternal enemy? for the latter, PA has my all blessings and support. For former, thats why I am here to raise my concern.

The PA has done NOTHING to deserve the likes of you. No one gave a damn about the tribal areas in BB or NS’s time, no one minded supporting the Taliban.

Correction, it was BB who approved the support for Talibans. research over it.

But now since it was during Musharraf’s time this tribal/Taliban problem began then people like Pashtun came and banged the entire weight of history on the PA’s head, as if somehow it was the PA that was responsible for not giving FATA a chance at a proper life or development (PA always tried, it was the tribes that resisted). Where is your sense of balance? Where is your sense of justice? Where is your genuine concern for the nation’s affairs?

First of all, nobody is questioning here what FATA got and what it didn't or who should be held responsible. So stick to the topic.

Secondly, in documentry Inside Talibans (you should be able to find it on youtube), Musharraf accepted he supported talibans because Northern Alliance was supported by Iran (his percieved enemy).

No, there's no propoganda. It's a fact that PA/ISI supported Talebans. It's a fact that Pakistan was the first country that legitimised Talebans and supported them with every thing they could to gain control of Afghanistan.

Factually speaking this maybe true, but your words and implications are a propaganda never the less. Like I said you pick out overblown observations out of foreign media and fit them into your little anti-Army vision. Then you come here to suggest that our support to the Taliban is so morally incriminating, and that our turning our backs on Taliban is also a moral outrage and/or cowardice and we’re getting what we deserve and what not. All completely rubbish and essentially foreign anti-Pakistani themes. Here is the reality.

Maybe? It is a fact. And there's no propoganda in talking about it. Or you just want to support hush culture here? I mean I am not really familiar with this place, so tell me if we are not to even speak about the facts... as long they are not against PA?

And again, I am not Anti-PA. I am questioning and raising my concerns about the top brass that decided to join WoT. Just like many others in our country.

Pakistan did support the Taliban of Afghanistan under Mullah Omar just like most Afghans did, just like the Saudis, the UAE and the Americans to a large extent at the time. Things went wrong, we were never in a position to give orders. Our advice on everything from the destroying of the Buddha statues to the sheltering of Al-Qaeda was disregarded.

Orders? There was support, financially and militarily. You unleash the animal only you trained, you don't decide how he will react to what you unleashed it on.

When an American attack was imminent, we tried our best to convince Omar that he won’t able to withstand it, that he should compromise with Al-Qaeda. Again we were ignored and insulted, we were right. The US invasion of Afghanistan was legal according to international protocol, and the subsequent swift overthrowing of the Taliban was a clear indication of their insufficient domestic support too. We had lesser obligation to stand by them than they had to stand by us, by what logic should we, a nation of 166 million, have sided with a broken and outlawed irregular group? By what moral or Islamic logic should we have invited all this trouble and death into our country when their own countrymen don’t want them?

You tell me? why did we supported them in the first place when their own country men didn't want them? Why did we screw with someone else country by supporting a cruel regime on them? What kind of hypocrisy is that to turn our guns back on someone who we called our best friends and in entire world became the first country to legitimise their government? and now we are spitting on their name?

And Incorrect. Omar listened and decided to oust OBL and hearing that America threw a fit and did not wait but attacked, because america didn't come for OBL as you would like everyone to believe. The invasion of Afghansitan was preplanned, many years before 2001. We were just dragged in it because someone unilaterly decided to become part of it (many generals refused if you don't know that already, a lot of your friends reported that here).

So don't pull a fast one on me. And do tell me if you seriously believe america is in afghanistan for OBL and Al-qaeda (which does not even exist)?

And you dare come here, you DARE come here to tell us that the PA or ISI invited the Taliban into our unguarded tribal borders? Just so that you can later accuse us of hypocrisy when we fight them?

We trained them against Soviets. We build relationships with them against soviets. We provided them with whatever we could. And then we turned our guns on them.

And moreover, we are all in it, its out country. There's no YOU and ME. The hypocrisy is combined on our part. The people that later came to known as talibans were celeberated fighters supported by us against soviets. Only you have no capacity to accept that we turned our guns on them by alienating them. And yet, Afghan talibans have never harmed us. It's the very people who we supported against afghanistan, are harming us by supporting miscreants in our country, not talebans.

They came in despite our best efforts. We deployed brigades worth of troops based on what we saw on the news alone (Americans didn’t bother informing us) but in the end it was an impossible task particularly with the much honored Pashtun tendency to shoot everything that moves and doesn’t speak Pahasto.

There were no brigades that were deployed when america attacked. It was not after we were forced to take that action to deploy army there. Haqqani, Hekmatyar and all others are still our assets in Afghanistan. (Listened to Zaid hamid lately?)

And no, Pashtuns do not shoot at anything that move. They shoot back at anything that shoots at them. So no racism here please, just because I am Pashtun, you don't have to pick on my ethnicity by making up things against them to prove your point.

The tribes were infiltrated, manipulated, used and eventually sidelined by the Taliban who used the same lovely logic you’re preaching here… That the Pak Army are ‘slaves’ to America for exercising order and control over their own country and should be eliminated through brutal war.

There were talibans in Afghanistan for 7 years. Not a single bullet was fired across the border or inside our lands. Not a single incident was reported inside our lands. They are still there and not raising an eyebrow against ut. And the ones that were left on our side, what do you think happened that they turned the guns towards PA, which was their main supporter?

Nothing Islamic or morally righteous about it, just same old tribal and ethnic vanity, opportunities and ambition for violence and loot and conquest. Where people like you should’ve been honorable and firm, and said no we do not tolerate violence against the state and state institutions, which is the UNIVERSAL law of statehood, Islamic or otherwise.

Truly, there's nothing Islamic in what talebans were doing. This is why I wonder why would PA supports them in th efirst place. And yes I stand firm among them against their violence, they hear an earful from me too, they don't get away without a lecture either. But thats not what we are discussing about (condemning them) but questioning the misuse of authority on PA part, so why should I not question the wrongs of PA top brass than diverting the discussion to something else? because of whom this entire violence started in the first place, when they turned the guns on them who they supported.

You and our politicians rather take the easy cowardly way out, blame everything on the Army and America.

And the politicians as well. I am neither tho. Nor politician, neither army. I am a citizen, whose livlihood is being destroyed because someone decided to fight an illegal war by attacking his own people.

already PA has pressure from aboard, let’s try to make most of the pressure ourselves. People die? Long term stability ruined? International, humanitarian, Islamic Law broken? Who cares? It is not politically convenient to blame the terrorists ever, just blame the army for ruining the people’s lives. When the terrorists commit a crime say it is the Army’s fault for forcing them to do it, but if there is collateral damage when the Army fights? Oh yes that is completely unforgivable and the army should be condemned. Isn’t this right Mr Pashtun?

Nop not the army. The top brass, who pushed the army into this situation by renting it to someone else.

The result of the above mentality, we are still struggling with terrorists to this very day. It would have been long over if the people of Pakistan and politicians had thrown their weight behind the Army’s efforts to expel foreigners.

It would have been long over if PA would do in the begining what it would do in the end. The result, the PA will strike deals with the people you are calling terrorists, by wasting precious lives of soldiers and civilians. Those terrorists were called patriot by the army when they said they will join the fight against the real enemy if they attack, and if PA decided to respond to attack. So howcome they are terrorist in one instance and patriot in another?

Exemplry (from your constant accusations against me), you are telling me anyone saying "yes Sir" to PA is in their good books, everyone else is a terorrist and a part of the problem.

But in answer to your retarded insinuations. Pakistan (like a lot of people) once supported the Afghan Taliban under Mullah Omar but has had absolutely NO connections with Al-Qaeda.

Nobody anywhere said Pakistan had a connection with Al-qaeda. In fact its me who is saying over n over again, Al-qaeda does not exist, its a sham. OBL is a scapegoat of U.S. they should make a monument of him and worship him for the unlimited benefits it reaped for them.

Pakistan has been dragged into it because one man made the decision and we are paying for it, politically and militarily.

The Pakistani Taliban (TTP) we are fighting now have no connection with Mullah Omar’s Taliban and have openly defied Mullah Omar’s authority. Mullah Omar doesn’t have a very high view of Betullah Mehsud and I reckon same is the case the other way round. The Pakistani Taliban also have a closer affiliation with Al-Qaeda militants than the original Taliban ever did.

Agreed with little twist in the story that TTP does not have connection with Al-qaeda. Al-qaeda does not exist. It's a scare crow, nothing else.

The Haqqanis and Hekmatyar groups were supported by us during the 80s and were supplied weapons and finances from all over the world. These 2 groups, it is alleged, constitute part of the Taliban spectrum that is not openly hostile to the PA and is apparently trying to convince the Betullah group to stop confronting the PA as well.

Yup. As I said many times, they are our assets. They hold no illwill for us.

Also these 2 groups were not part of Mullah Omar’s Taliban and have in fact confronted the Taliban in their own times.

Wrong. Haqaani became part of talibans when kabul fell to them and served as a high ranking commander for them. And hekmatyar's almost entire group joine dthem except him, as his faultering regime was brought down by them and he was expelled.

Mullah Fazrullah, the Swat Taliban group is an affiliate of Betullah, not Mullah Omar and we don’t owe any loyalty or allegiance to him or anyone else. It is hard to have the entire picture these days I know, but I unlike you and Indians, would naturally give my servicemen the benefit of the doubt until as time things are made irrefutably clear instead of trying to implicate them in some imaginary moral dilemmas. We already have enough Anti-Pakistani people doing that all over the net, we don’t need your addition. Indians movies are not a reality Pashtun, time you and your friends understand.

Fazullulah is not afiliate to baitullah, in fact Bairullah is affiliate to Fazullulah while being commander of TTP and Fazullulah being in charge of Swat area. Fazullulah had been there long before Baitullah. And sooner or later, the deals will be struck with them (if PA does not decide to kill the man).

And I agree, there's way too much confusion, we can work out that confusion only if you do not drag insults and slanting on me every time you comment by questioning my loyality to my country and my people.

And you have yet to address the contradictions in your allegations. You can either accuse us of being 'guilty' of befriending the Taliban or being 'guilty' of trying to kill them. You cant hit us with both sides of the hammer. Your hate for the PA is unreasoning, but you have to chose your side never the less.

I don't hate PA. I am questioning the actions, strategies of the top brass who push PA to this situation. There's no contradiction. This is a question. Why they are befredinded with them and killing them at the same time? As i said earlier, one of the reasons the guns are turned towards us (by militants) is this, that we turned our guns towards them.

This is a tough world no doubt. But the west and the superpowers are not out to get you. Those who are weak and easily manipulated will always be preyed on, which is only natural. People like you make Pakistan and Pakistanis weak, disunited, confused and unfocused.

Calling for a united front against the western invasion is making Pakistan weak? I see you are a supporter of being in bed with WoT for renting our army to them. No sir, the more we bow our heads, the more we will be dragged from our hair. Have anybody taught to you how to lift your head ina dignity? or is it something too much to ask for in this tough world?

Just like the Americans thought the Iraqis were, so they could just walk over them. How can you compare Pakistan to Iraq anyway,

Who is comparing Iraq to Pakistan anyway? Just by pointing out what happened with Iraq (from a policy design prospective) doesn't mean one is comparing the two. It's the design they have that they applied on Afghansitan, Iraq and now its our turn. Every target of their reacted differently, so we can't compare the response, rather the design.

we know you don’t have a very high opinion of Pakistan but this is too much.

We? we who, you three four people or 10,000 members of this forum? or 166 million pakistanis?

And no, you are wrong for saying that. You are just frustrated because I am criticising PA top brass. nothing else. For you they ar ebeyond criticism. hence your insulting replies.

How many years was Saddam in power and how many years Musharraf? Did Musharraf have a secret police that kept the nation in complete fear?

Apparently Musharraf kidnapped 100s of pakistanis and sold it to US as a terror suspects. The families of whom still trying to find the missing people, that had nothing to do with anything than maybe an easy target for the "secret police" or someone didn't like that in the establishment.

All other comparison is useless, since nobody is comparing Iraq and Pakistan, so don't be excited.

If someone was to invade Pakistan, they would use your rhetoric to do it Pashtun. Almost word to word, about how the PA has ‘enslaved’ Pakistani people. About how we lack moral credentials, and you think people like me are the ones who leave the door wide open for foreign interference.

That is what I mentioned else where. That they are making this case against us by showing it to the world that PA is inflicting cruelities upon its own people and we must go and liberate Pakistanis. That is exactly my concern regarding the actions of top brass by pushing military into civilian areas.

Al-Qaeda? does Al-qaeda even exist? That tells me how much you know about international affairs.

LOL, sorry please excuse my ignorance for thinking Al-Qaeda exists. But whatever Al-Qaeda is, whoever is pulling their strings, whoever is using or manipulating them, they still HAVE NO PLACE in Pakistan.

Why should they have a place in Pakistan? I don't understand. Why would you say they should or should not have a place in pakistan?

All this violence, all those suicide bombings, IED attacks, a thousand plus soldiers, thousands of civilians don’t drop dead of their own accord. Again you take the easy way out by pretending that Al-Qaeda doesn’t exist or that they can’t be ‘Muslim’. Grow up, they are what they are, they are wrong and they have to be destroyed. Your sort is in the way.

We can have a discussion on Al-qaeda if you want. Let me knwo which topic and I will reply.

And 1000 soldiers being killed. This is what I am tryign to stop. Why their precious lives are being wasted for someones else illegal war? These people (whoever you want to call them) existed long before and long after american invasion in our region. Why they didn't fire a bullet until we turned our guns towards them?

You lack the courage to acknowledge that all who are born Muslim or act in the name of Islam, are not Islamic.

You assumed that one too. I hereby say it, I agree with what you are saying. Not everyone calling himself a Muslim is a Muslim. That is why I said Islam is Islam, it doesn't change, people does.

And it amazes me how people here assume things on their own. e.g. accusing me for "praising western and indian democracy standards" and "snubbing Pakistan".

I didn’t accuse you of it. I was just talking about people from whom you get your rhetoric.

I didn't say you accused me, tho you just said you did. Anywhichway, that's why I discuss things on different forums so I can enhance my knwoeldge, or fix other's misconceptions.

But I won’t be surprised if you said it, given the fact that you consider the PA’s involvement in government in the best an unforgivable crime and abomination, a stain on the honor of generations of officers.

Never said that, so don't know why you are assigning it to me? I only told the gentlemen here who deny that PA never intervenes in GoP.

It is not hard to see whose standards you’re trying to mimic. Your expectations and demands in regards to the PA’s nature and conduct are utopian, but any standards that you might apply to western principles of democracy or even Islam are non-existent. International or Islamic Law does not allow for private Armies, it does not allow for private armies carrying out ‘justice’ and chopping the heads of those who disagree.

It does not. Neither did I say they should. So I don't know why would you assign this one as well on me? Perhaps it seems assigning things to others that they have never said is very common here. Or maybe you are misinterpreting when I talk about the failure of the govt. and the rise of the people to take thing sin their own hands? Perhaps for that you need to read a few history books as to why people rise when the governments fail. But it had nothing to do with what you have accused me for.

There is no place in civilized societies for those who use extreme violence to satisfy their agenda, there is no place for those who use violence at all.

Civilised society? :p

You refer to some concepts of democracy and Islam which you accuse the PA of having broken, but ALL the rules and regulations and fundamentals that go with these concepts are ignored by you for the sake of the terrorists. You legitimize a chaotic, violent, confused, irrevocably inhumane and backward agenda and you pretend to have vision or moral authority over anyone? Over Pakistani soldiers?

For example which concepts? what rules? which fundamentals? and which ones I am talking about that PA broke? You totally lost me on that one. Os is it something you assumed as well?

When people like you are there to defend "all the wrongdoings" and snub everyone who raises his voice by calling him/her "any-pakistan" and "india-lover".

I unlike you, defend no ‘wrong doings’. I unlike you have the courage and a sense of moral obligation to acknowledge the wrong doings and I, unlike you, also have the decency to support and respect those who are trying to confront and destroy the wrong doers in spite of any personal frustration or bias I might have towards them.

you just refused to accept Military have any problem. You sir, indeed, defended every action of military, whether it was right or wrong. How do you want me to itnerpret your post otherwise?

As far as you having a lot in a lot in common with some of our Indian posters here in regards to your view of the PA… well I’m surprised they haven’t thanked all your posts yet. But I’m sure they would have done if it wasn’t for you obvious pro-Taliban tendencies.

Another accusation. Just because someone questions certain actions of PA, doesn't make him an indian lover. I had been (in here) arguing with Indians over Mumbai massacre, and sure they don't like me I guess for that. So you can keep your accusations in your pocket for now. There's nothing I had said that would make indians happy. They should be happy for you to defend the military blindly, so our country can further edge towards destruction.

brilliant strategy of the west, I must admit.

LOL, the west is not out to get you. You and people like you are a joke in themselves. The west just wants their agendas filled, and the pathetic, pointless, paranoid and undisciplined people in 3rd world countries just make their job all the more easier.

We differ on that. I certainly beleive it is out to get us. I would love to discuss that but I believe this is not the topic, so let me know where you want to discuss that whether they are coming for us or not and we can share the views.

And it's our corrupt officials, that makes their job easier. Not the people who ask to end the honeymoon with them.

If you haven't noticed, one of the yank here also supported you all for killing your own people and excellently saying "patrioc pakistanis".

You should know, there is another American here. He thinks that Pakistan is dragging its feet in the WoT so naturally I and he are usually at odds. But you’d get along with him much better because he, like you, likes to think of the PA as little more than an organization of corrupt and incompetent aristocrats who are suffocating the Pakistani people. But you know what? I still respect him more than I respect you, because he pushes the line for his country. He pushes the legitimacy of country’s agendas and endeavors at the cost of ours. Being a frontline ally to a superpower is no easy job after all, but there is respect. You on the other hand push the line against your own country, seeking to rob us of all moral, social and legal credibility.

So this is concluded that you don't respect me for whatever you wrote that you think I stand for. Thanks for the heads up, appreciated.

And I haven't come across with that American yet. So I can't comment on what he thinks and how you are interpreting his position. Whats his screenname?

I guess patriotism is left for those who supports the western design that the country is supporting?

You’d be more than happy to call Turkey and Turkey’s system an aspect of ‘western design’. But recently they were the ones threatening to pierce the sovereignty of a US Occupied country in defiance of the US where as in Pakistan it’s the other way round, isn’t it?

Turkey is a western ally, through and through. That is why U.S. did not say a word when it pierced through Kurds area. Because it was already occupied by an Ally.

It's not just recently with Abdullah Gul and Erdogan, that things are slightly changing.

On the other hand, Pakistan is not occupied by U.S. It controls somewhat of our decisions and actions through corruption in Military and Civilian diaspora. As i said earlier, there's a split in miltiray top brass. Perhaps thats the reason U.S. can't fully implement its design and perhaps that would be the reason the US will invade us to fully neutralize us.

We have all the potential; manpower, population, military might they have and more but why are we the ones facing a situation where our integrity is threatened?

Beucase we are fighting someone else war by declaring war on our own people. They will leave one day or another. We are here to stay. We just shot ourelves in the foot by turning our guns towards permanent inhabitants of the region on the behst of U.S.

How exactly you know I never served Pakistan? is serving the country only means one have to be in Army?

I’m sure you haven’t served in the military but that’s not what I was referring to. You lack the capacity to comprehend what I meant by ‘serving the Pakistan that is’. It means you give your allegiance, loyalty and respect to your people and nation despite any shortcomings or failings you see in them.

So in other words you are telling me no one is suppose to question the shortcommings and corruption, or he is not loyal to the country? Sir, someone who questions the corruption and shortcomings of the country is actually loyal to the country, and is concerned, that is why he raises the question.

And yes this is why I questioned so you can clarify your stand. Your question was vague and your defense of the military was appalingly telling me you wante dme to serve in the military. And I don't like to boast or reveal things about me, that what had I been contributing towards country or not, so we'll leave it to that. Besides you already have made up you mind about me, so there's no point. I am not here to earn the respect from you, which you decided to not give me anyway.

A great service you are doing Mr Pashtun, surely we can see you have the country’s larger interests at heart. When people in your country rape innocent women in the name of punishing Zina, here you are sitting and telling us that they are following a noble cause? You dare to tell us fellow Muslims, that these men aspire to Islamic ideals of all things? And then you claim the PA has issues with right and wrong?

Can you point to where I said those people are following a noble cause for punishing women to be raped in our country?

Can you tell me where did I support the militancy in swat by saying they are Islamic Ideals?

Or lies are all you left with? Perhaps this is what I am talking about. Lies, fabrications, hush culture, defending the wrongs by lying and accusing others by fabricating stories and assigning it to them that they said 'that'.

This is why our country is screwed when people like you, who can go to an extent of lying and assigning stories against others, are defending the country instead of accepting the mistakes and fixing them.

The country does not flourish, because it is ruled by army for half of her life. The other half was directly influenced.

You just did it, didn’t you? Mindlessly attributing all of Pakistan’s ills to the Army. Well if members of the nation’s armed institutions participating in government is such an ‘outrage’ to you, the rest of us would have only hoped that these lofty standards you would have applied to your RPG wielding, people intimidating, self-imposing brutal Taliban friends as well. At least when the PA takes over it is not done through force of arms and public beheadings.

Who am I to attribute that? entire country says the samething. They are jsut scared for not getting disappeared for raising their voice, so the talk stays in the close quarters. While you can accuse others for supporting talibans against PA. No, how many times do I have to say NO, nobody is supporting talibans, or the militants. We do support the operation against them, but not the way it is, not on the orders of someone else. We question the very decision that brought us to this point. If you an't understand that, I can't help you.

This is the ‘Islam’ you want is it? You say that women should not go to the market place alone and quote a Quranic verse to that effect, I challenge you and say they can go quoting an Hadith to that effect. Who decides then? If my women go to the market and you try to harm them then there is war amongst Muslims, in the name of Islam of all things. And then what decides who wins? The fact that who’s got a bigger gun ofcourse, the person who is willing to cross a few lines.

There you said it. It's not about right or wrong. it's about who got the bigger gun.

My point is, why the gun, when we can fix the problem by talking and fix the situation. Why turn to the guns and push people to the wall, just because you have a bigger gun.

The dictatorships only land the country in utter chaos. Specially as big as ours. Perhpas if you haven't noticed, Pakistan crumbled in past 10 years. One after another incidence and our stupid policies to deal with them, almost caused us terrorist state notion.

You impulsively label Pakistan a complete dictatorship, but how many dictators come in with legal sanction and wide spread popular/political backing. The fact that the military have felt obliged to take the helm is not a sickness, it is a symptom. In the end no one hates military rule more than military-men, but a realistic evaluation will tell you that there was little choice.

There's always a choice. the ills will end, when the people in power want them to end. Letting corrupt civilian politicians taking office in the first place, will never achieve anything other than deeming "necessary to take over as we had little choice".

Atleast people like Ayub, Zia, Musharraf tried to offer something to the nation, tried to make amends, bothered trying to fix things and looked for a concept of democracy that would fit us…more than can be said for any civilians. And at least they all left peacefully when it was clear their services were unwanted and didn’t use violence and mass murder to retain their seats.

Can't speak for Ayub since I wasn't born in his era. But Zia gave us perverted version of Islam and Musharraf brougth us to this destruction.

You cannot talk about dictatorship because you don’t know what it’s like. Have you ever lived in North Korea under Kim, Iraq under Saddam, Zimbabwe under Mugabe, Egypt under Mubarak or even Saudi under the Sauds?

isn't it enough to live under Musharraf with a scare that when my number will come for disappearing and ending up in Gitmo? I am sure the others were the same or more. The rhetoric doesn't change.

Pakistan has NOT crumbled BTW, you don’t know what a crumbled Pakistan would look like. This is another example of your mentality with naïve conceptions for what passes for a reality in your head.

if this is not crumbling, then surely I would not like to think what would crumbling be.

One after another stupid policies landed us into "Top 10 Failed State" status.

No it is your Taliban friends, and your failure to support those who fight them that has landed us in that list. Why do you care about that damn list so much anyway? You certainly don’t care if a western think tank lists the Taliban as the main force ruining Pakistan and continue to indulge in your contempt for the Army’s efforts to eradicate them.

I even don't know who to support when my military supports them and and I support my military and when my military turns the guns at them, I am left to taste the enmity. Remember Pir Sameeullah, he too thought Military supports him against the talibans, where he rose against them and abandoned by military to feel how the dead body looks like hanging from the pole.

So who will give me the guanratee whose side Military is?

I guess we are on two different sides of the river. Time will tell, time always tell.

Yes we are. And I hope the battle lines are drawn quickly and plainly so your type can be sorted out soon and the people of Pakistan can be on their way to a greater future. History will remember Pakistan's resolute sons who wanted to help, but will not regard highly those who have only been obstacles to achieving Pakistan's full potential.

yes I know we are, for sure. I also know you do not respect me either. I know you can go on lie about things to associate it with me and I know you will fabricate scenarios to prove your point against me by saying I do/think that. So yes we are deffinately on a different side of the river.

And I am sure history will remember the heroes as well as likes of Musharraf. The only difference will be, who is resolute son and who is not.

And Thank you for all the assumptions and assertions and interesting titles and accusations and all the insults you assigned to me in all of your comments. And after you told me you do not respect me, I do not see any reason to extend our discussion. Since discussions are held on mutual respect bases, and since you don't offer any respect, there's no point for us to carry with our discussion. Thank you for your time tho.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

Dhakka fell because India found the opportunity in disdained bengalis who were oppressed by us. They cashed that gap between PA and the people of East Pakistan as an opportunity. It's our fault for providing such opportunity and that is why I brought up dhakka in the first place, that we are doing again the same thing, creating gap between armed forces and civilian masses. And the enemy will again cash this opporunity.

do NOT get started on this sh!t, Dhakka fell because of the ignorance of people there, secularism and hindu influence, indian contribution, and last but not least, maltreatment of bengalis. do NOT make baseless claims of oppression, you have no idea what happened and why it happened. things are not as one-sided as indians, bangladeshis, and of course you, imagine and depict.

P.S: a piece of advice to all the members here, if any of you choose to ignore rants, I encourage you to do so. if you bother replying, you do so at your own expense. you will only be tired out in the end.