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Swat Operation II

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I GUSS, PAKARMY's efforts & new training style is start working now in SAWT!
millitants have to face the rock of pakarmy, now!
the best action till now, some of people i know, they say that , this time millitants were very astonished, when they got coverd from behind, by pakarmy!:tup:
"Security forces claim to have established control over the Charbagh area, which was previously a militant stronghold":tup:

GO PAKARMY GO!:cheers::enjoy::pakistan:
 
I GUSS, PAKARMY's efforts & new training style is start working now in SAWT!
millitants have to face the rock of pakarmy, now!
the best action till now, some of people i know, they say that , this time millitants were very astonished, when they got coverd from behind, by pakarmy!:tup:
"Security forces claim to have established control over the Charbagh area, which was previously a militant stronghold":tup:

GO PAKARMY GO!:cheers::enjoy::pakistan:

News like this makes me happy, is there any newsreport or source over this?
Good to see the Army is gaining the upper hand on these wannabe state actors. :tup:
 
News like this makes me happy, is there any newsreport or source over this?
Good to see the Army is gaining the upper hand on these wannabe state actors. :tup:

jihad, dear sir
here is the report for you , but it will not going to let you know what is going on the battle field!;):pakistan:

70 militants, four civilians killed in Swat
Tuesday, 03 Feb, 2009 | 04:26 AM PST
dawnnews/beta

MINGORA: Security forces killed 70 militants during an operation in a village in the Charbagh tehsil (sub-division) of the violence-ridden Swat Valley, officials said late Monday, according to DawnNews TV.
Security forces used heavy artillery against the militants after residents of the area had been evacuated, officials said.
Security forces claim to have to have established control over the Charbagh area, which was previously a militant stronghold. :pakistan:
A majority of the area’s 45,000 residents had fled the area in the wake of increased militant activity and collateral damage from army operations in the area:tsk:.
 

Thanks for the lecture Agnostic, and I could have just absorbed it if it wasn't very far fetched, so I must reply to your misunderstandings and misconceptions about certain things you claimed.

You sir indeed live in some twisted utopia, where you dream of revolutions by half crazed religious nutjobs brandishing a perverted form of Islam as a cure for all ills. The lack of democracy is no excuse to go seeking an even more crazed, destructive and despotic regime under the Mullahs, which is all your 'revolution' boils down to.

Your claim is absurd based on academic and logical rhetoric when you said about me living in a Utopia. Utopia, is something as an ideal place or state, or any visionary system of political or social perfection. And Pakistan is neither. And that is why we are questioning the wrong actions of the institutions or other people taking things in their hands as they deem right.

On the other hand, you suggested something (ref: your idea of dealing with crises) that only fits in ideal system with political perfection and superb judicial freedom where every human has a right.

So either you are far from the reality of our country, or you are simply fabricating scenarios to prove your point. In either cases, you sir, living or dreaming of a utopia, not me.

People like you and Anwar have no choice but to advance this criminal, immoral and medieval mindset under the garb of Islam, since it is only through the subjugation and coercion of people through violence (endorsed and justified by this perverted interpretation of Islam of course) that these thugs will ever come to power.

First of all, I know you are an agnostic but that doesn't give you a right to mudsling my religion by calling it "medieval mindset". Islam is islam. You can't change what is written in Qur'an and the Qur'an clearly draws a prohibitation about Immoral activites, such as Prostitution, Alcahol, and the related materials, such as pornography.

Now, when we claim it is ok if government failed to put a tab on the directly prohibited (through religious and the secular laws of the country) that is "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" and have gotten for the Muslims so they can practise their religion freely, but it is not ok for the people to get agitated on the failure of the government to do their job.

You sir, on the other hand is supporting the government for all their wrongdoings by justifying the massacre of innocent people along with some pissed off people, who had no option left than to take things in their hands.

As I said, only if you were living in Utopia, you would be thinking about working on democratic channels (that does not exist) to oust any government and bring another one, rather you failed to understand that in past 30 years, people never got a chance to oust any govt. on their own, rather through coup-de-etats.

And when people who does not want their kids to be growing up in a area with brothels, alcahol stores, pornographic material and other ills of the society, you call them "Mullahs", you call them "extremists", and you find all sorts of justifications to kill them.

The mass injustices being committed now are not by the rulers, but by these very 'men of faith' - the injustice was committed when taliban were taught to not respect teh law, and take it into their own hands, when children were taught to wield AK-47's instead of pens, to behead soldiers and civilians - that sir is where 'mass injustice was committed'.

First of all no child beheaded anyone in the LM. There were no Talibans in LM. Secondly, the people of 'faith', do have every right to stop the wrongdoings of the government. That is what you call "Civil disobedience" which is usually called in when people want to bring down the governments (as APDM is calling on this govt. in due time). So I am not sure why would you confuse completely two different things by pointing out whats going on in the west to what happened in the East, while the two parties did not even relate to eachother. So please stick to the topic, and do not astray far from it. Appreciated.

In contrast, the existence of a brothel or two, a corner store distributing pornography, and an illegal liquor store are but shining examples of virtue. It is only a twisted mind that can seek to justify sins of murder, coercion, suicide bombings and the overthrow of the state on the basis of the above.

The states are overthrown by such massive uprisings against the wrong doings. Get a history book and read about how people reacted to certain things. Just recently in Thailand, people toppled the govt. And not far from reality, in Dhakka, what happened there? why do you think massive bangladeshi uprising against the state started?

So yes, when things get ugly from Govt. side against their own citizens, it gets ugly from the citizens side as well. So when your citizens are involved, only dialogue can fix the problem. A political solution. If you decide to shoot the angry protestors, or threatened them that they will be killed (just as we did in Bangladesh and then LM), then remember - every action has an equal or opposite reaction. History is full of it.

That your revolution has failed, and the one I advocate succeeded, can be seen from the fact that it is those who chose the political, non violent form of protest to affect change are the ones leading the country now, and it is your rabid Mullah's who have shown their true colors of being cold blooded murderers of innocents, and the guardians of obscurantism and intolerance.

The revolution hasn't even started, sir. What you are seeing is just a few pissed off people taking thing sin their hands, unorganized, against a military dictator. The few people stood tall, but Islamabad was taller than them and ordered an open massacre on the behest of someone else.

Talk about your advocacy of nonviolence as efective system for change. Boy, do I hate all this feel-good phoney liberal nonsense. So lets take this argument further.

"Non-Violence" is a myth promoted by western media; something in which the west has never really believed but would like all wogs to adhere. No struggle against oppression, injustice, tyranny and wrongdoings and by extension, freedom from tyrant rulers, has ever been won by "non-violent" means.

No oppressor has ever ended its oppression, because it was asked nicely. Same happened in LM, no action was taken when the people asked nicely the govt. to act against the prohibited activities per country's laws and social values.

Yep, non-violence is a feel good term, and looks great on paper and t-shirts, and in a perfect world, it might even be the perfect strategy. But let me repeat, when in the real world, the world that we live in (Pakistan), when the governments failed to produce results rather inflict more injustices on the society that society can't and does not approve (in LM case, the prohibited activities) etc., and that's where people decide to rise against the injust treatment and wrongdoings of the government.

Injustices only ends when people rise up against it and fight it by all means necessary. Anyone who thinks otherwise has probably never picked up a history book, let alone has an appreciation of the apalling reality of the country we live in.

So when a bully has his boot on somebody's neck, then your duty is only to stop the bully, you are in no position to tell the man on the floor how he ought to resist. (especially when the bully has been fed and instigated by a foreign entity for their personal interests.)

And then you said:

In the end that is the only way a society and system can survive, when its people learn to exercise their rights responsibly and wisely, and that cannot come about without trial and error and without continuity. What you propose is not a system, but merely the substitution of a tyranny of the Military (Musharraf and those before him) with the far worse tyranny of the Mullah.

No, the society and the system can survive when there's a transperancy, where there are checks and balances, when there are people who question the actions and policies of the "rulers" and put them in their right place when they transgress, when there's justice for every man, when the powerful can't getaway with their crimes.

On the other hand, our Chief Justice can't get the justice forget the ordinary people. The government is out of control and completely corrupt. No institution is able to produce results for the common people. Army is too powerful to be questioned for their actions (even by the government), yet brought to justice for (any) wrongs. The corrupt officials are made presidents and Prime Ministers and federal ministers. Nobody is stopping people burying women alive rather making the people approving the actions, their federal ministers.

And yet you debunked the agitated people in the favour of a dictatorship that inflicted all those injustices upon people in the first place that made people rise and take things in their own hands. That's where we fundamentally differ.


Yes WE elected people who have siphoned of billions, and as horrible as that choice may be WE made that choice - it was not imposed on us by some two bit suicidal Mullah dreaming of sex with a four year old. WE will live with the consequences of OUR decisions and WE will learn to choose wisely.

Not really we. There were deal struck with military dictator to bring back the criminals in exile and clear them off from all cases (by destroying judicial system) and by placing NROs etc. and then taking all the cases filed in foreign courts back as well, wasting billions of rupees of public.

On other hand, only 44% total voters turned out in entire country, with actually 18% in some locations and on average, 30% in other parts, doesn't mean that "we" chose these people. As a matter of fact, many parties boycotted the election under emergency.

And 44% does not mean all of them voted for the criminals in government. As a matter fact the loser to got the votes so 44% of the voters have share in those votes as well that were polled for the losers, or the good people in the govt. that have no room right now neither say in the governance. So you can't say that "we" the 44% entirely voted this government in, that too when they were especially brought in by NRO's on the orders of our western masters. Oh well the thing again came down to Military elite brass taking dictums from America for altering our political leadership.

The revolution that mattered took place already. It was peaceful and political (the violence marring it the frustrated lashing out of the alternate tyranny of the Mullah you propose), and a military dictator, benevolent though he was, was overthrown in favor of a democratically elected government. That revolution is the one that needs to continue, and attempting to prevent it from succeeding is the tyranny of the Mullah.

The revolution (NRO) that mattered to YOU took place. Not for the people of Pakistan, who are sick and tired of that "revolution" already, if you haven't noticed. And there was no Military dictatorship at the end, if you ahven't noticed. The man gave up his uniform for the sherwani, and on top of that, he was of no use to United States so support was lifted as well, and moreover Zardari was more capable of doing things that dictator couldn't do it (while being civilian) hence, case closed for him.

Yet you are it, twisting things around, calling everyone Mullah, who does not support the massacre of LM. And extending it further by accusing others for supporting rapes of four year olds. Well just because the things you can't see others questioning, doesn't give you the right to resort to misinterpret and name calling others. No Sir, people talking about Islam and against the massacre of their own civilians, are not always "Mullahs".

Even tho you accepted that LM was a disaster for our country by "Thanking" Waraich for what he posted to prove his point that LM massacre was a disaster and a wrong thing to do.

So one more time, not evenone who stands by Islam, is a Mullah. Not everyone who stands against tyranny and injustice and oppression, is an extremist. Not evenone who is agitated for what govt. is allowing to happen in the country, is a terrorist.

P.S. This was a reply to your LM claims, not on the matter of Swat, so don't mix the two as you tried to do in your almost all replies.
 
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Can someone give us a detailed story on the current situation? How the militants are distributed, where the army is operating. Maps can help very much.
 
Yes What? Yes can interpret in many different ways to many different people, such as, to an extent that the gap between civilian society and armed forces is so huge that army have to stop officers from identifying themselves and going out in public in Uniform? To that extent that to save the country, we kill all our people and left with the country only? Or to that extent that someone else decides its too much, and the country have beocme Saddam style government, so lets move on and 'liberate' the Pakistanis? And the more you can use your imagination...

So What was that yes in block letters pointing to?

E.g. what weapon that Zardari (the man without any power) can stop the military from?

This is hypothetical theory. Zardari has no power to sign such agreements on his own, without having discussed in the parliament or the Military, and no such thing had been discussed in the parliament. (Unless you have some proves that confirms Military was not accomplice to that agreement).

And what good that council was for?

And you believed in this? My proof to my potent claim is, wait and watch.

And what NAB had to do with Military? Except top brass too is being accused for stashing money away, if you haven't been listening to the accusations of controversial, billion or so dollar missing from what US gave away to General Musharraf, so no NAB, no accountability (like we ever had any case of accountability of Military officer anyway).

Depends on how much funding did he cut. Can you point me to actual article, and that it has taken place or has he been deciding, or did he reduced the funding, or has he totally cut it off etc.?

And I do agree with you on all points regarding Zardari that he have to take orders for US, after all, almost half of his controversial money ($1.5bn) is stashed away in US. So why would he lose the money for the people, he took it from in the first place.

So every person who talks about Islam is Extremist? I think you have no idea what General Hamid Gul is. You have no clue what he stands for. And you have no idea how best of the army brass he was. Generals like him make us all proud of our Army. And regardless of the matter, I never thought it was a good idea to put ISI under interior ministry, but thats not what I am arguing here, that whether it was right or wrong, the argument here is, whether Military is under Civilian control or not, and it's NOT. This being one of the example in the current time (and past results you already know) and the future have no surprises. My proof to that is, wait and watch.

For the umpteeth time, please stop your accusations of we hating the army. I mean for frickin two dozen posts, I had been saying I am questioning the certain actions and strategies of the top brass and yet you are at it again, chewing the rubber apple over and over again. I mean get over that complex you have man.

If you can't argue on the bases oo academic and logical ways, then don't humiliate yourself in constantly accusing people for hating the entire army to get some support from other people here who had not been reading the entire discussion.

It's below the belt. You seem like in your teens or early 20s who have no clue how to interact on sober bases. Let me repeat myself, I love Army, I just don't approve every action of the top military brass, that too not all of them, because I beleive their's a split among top brass on many issues as well (e.g. operations agains ttheir own people, on a honeymoon with WoT, taking pressure from United States, etc. etc.). There are still best of the best lot in the army, that oppose the top elite for doing all those things (we had seen many officers opposing Musharraf for getting in bed with US over WoT).

So you see, our criticism here, stop conquering your own people and country, while making excuses for the direct attacks on our soverignty that the ACCs are waiting outside and we have no capability to defend ourselves, hence the honourless life we have to live.

I stand by my words, I prefer dying on my feet than live on my knees with my head on someone's else feet. I would prefer to be killed by an enemy fire, than disappear or get shot by my own protectors.

I hope you DO understand my criticism this time. And if you think Army is beyond criticism, (as one of your friends think that who said we are Not Muslims for questioning army), than let me know, so I know criticism of the things we deem wrong in our opinion is not allowed here and that only praises are allowed.

I am not asking for much, a simple yes or no answer to this question, which you've dodged several times already.
sighs...you know I take a lot caution when replying to you and people like you, so that you don't feel alienated from the rest of the members on this forum. Please respond with the same patience I extend to you, I have no grudge against you, and I do hope you realize that. I disagree with some of the statements here, coming from both sides of the argument, but my problem lies with your thinking and logic.

I could care less whether you love or hate the army, I was never arguing to enforce something like that in your head. I've found that arguing with the majority of the Pakistani people in support of the army is useless, which is why I choose to ignore ranting coming from ignorants.

what I'm trying to figure out here is what your views are, I'm trying to clear up those views and put them forth so that you, yourself, can see the error of your logic. your arguments aren't consistent, they don't even make sense when you put them in order.

we all know what is happening with Pakistan, no one here is blind brother, and the army knows it better than us. we all know where these militants are getting their supplies from, we all know what type of equipment they are using, we all know that the US is using drones to build up tension and set the province on fire to break away, but there's a difference between knowing that and being able to do something about it.

The army is not beyond criticism, you don't know how much I criticize the armed forces, on this forum and the others. I've been mocked and ridiculed for that, some people are just too proud to admit their own shortcomings. However, what I do know is that our own people are far too stupid to realize that our army pales in comparison to the indian army and so many other armies, when it comes to horrific crimes and "taking the nation hostage". I understand how important the army is to our nation, how important it is to entire muslim world. the only thing holding the US and India back is our army and intelligence.

yet here, you talk as if we are all blind to what is happening around us. you talk as if corruption in the upper echelons of the army is more severe than the likes of what we've seen with politicians. you make it sound as if our politicians are angels, and only a few of them are corrupt? do you know how much money they've stolen from the public since the beginning? do you want me to show you how they live here in the US? I can certainly pull up a picture of my friend on facebook, and show you what drinking and partying really is.

it's true the army is westernized, but only to a small degree. These westernized generals in the upper echelons are dying out. The next generals in line are called "post Zia-ists"-recently brought up in an article, hence the fear of nuclear weapons falling into the "wrong hands". the term is pretty much self-explanatory. there is severe hatred for the US in the armed forces and the intelligence. But again, there's a difference between knowing and actually doing something about it.

I can assure you, the militants aren't winning in afghanistan as some idiots here are celebrating, the americans simply don't care about them as long as their direct interests aren't threatened. things are not what they seem to be. as of right now, there is nothing Pakistan can do. The only option is to play it out and wait, until someone gets tired and leaves.

it's true, musharraf has made terrible decisions that cost this country so much. However, there's a difference between Musharraf and the army as a whole. I shouldn't have to remind you of the generals who helped Musharraf come into power were pro-jihadists and were bitterly against the joining of the WoT. Please research Generals Mahmood, Mohammad Aziz, and Usmani.

the people of Pakistan have elected a govt. of their own choice. you haven't provided sufficient proof of the army somehow "secretly" controlling the govt, that theory is ridiculous. it was Zardari that took the order to move the ISI back, even if he was pressured by generals, the point is he did. even if Zardari chose to move the ISI, he did it without Parliament's consultation, it wasn't even debated and there was much backlash, when the ISI was moved and when the DG ISI was supposed to be sent to india. Besides, the current DG ISI has clearly said in an interview that he was ready to go.

I've already provided you with sufficient proof the current govt. is in charge. I shouldn't have to, bring me some serious proof that the army is in charge. otherwise, drop this accusation and blame the current govt. right now which has an agreement with the US on airstrikes.

we know that innocent civilians are killed in crossfire from the artillery shells, again I brought up the agreement we had with the US for counter-insurgency training. But as I already had predicted, you would disagree and consider those soldiers to be "western slaves".

what you need to recognize, is that these militants are using the civilian population as a shield. the only choices people have is to start their own lashkars, while moving people out of the area to prepare for a major operation. people cannot just sit there and only criticize the army, they have to recognize the militants and blame them equally. we know that is not happening, and we also know that these militants cannot all be foreigners, they are getting some of their support from Swat as well. tell me, why is that?
 
Your claim is absurd based on academic and logical rhetoric when you said about me living in a Utopia. Utopia, is something as an ideal place or state, or any visionary system of political or social perfection. And Pakistan is neither. And that is why we are questioning the wrong actions of the institutions or other people taking things in their hands as they deem right.

On the other hand, you suggested something (ref: your idea of dealing with crises) that only fits in ideal system with political perfection and superb judicial freedom where every human has a right.

So either you are far from the reality of our country, or you are simply fabricating scenarios to prove your point. In either cases, you sir, living or dreaming of a utopia, not me.

My reference to a 'utopia' was not literal, but a reference to this 'utopia' you seem to have convinced yourself only a halfd literate Mullah's can deliver us to.

And no, I am not referring to a a 'perfect political system', if you had read my post carefully you would have realized I called democracy a flawed system, but less flawed than others, especially the tyrannical one under the Mullah's you propose.

So no, I have no illusions about the inherent flaws in a democratic system - it is just that those flaws are far smaller than those in a Mullah or military dictatorship.
First of all, I know you are an agnostic but that doesn't give you a right to mudsling my religion by calling it "medieval mindset". Islam is islam. You can't change what is written in Qur'an and the Qur'an clearly draws a prohibitation about Immoral activites, such as Prostitution, Alcahol, and the related materials, such as pornography.
Oh please - Islam is Islam is a canard spouted by those making excuses for the extremists and obscurantists. Islam does not advocate violence upon those who are unarmed, it does not advocate challenging the writ of the State when all peaceful options have not yet been closed down, it does not advocate suicide bombings all across Pakistan (as the LM Mullahs claimed on the media), so the 'Islam' advocated by these individuals was nothing but a perversion.

Now, when we claim it is ok if government failed to put a tab on the directly prohibited (through religious and the secular laws of the country) that is "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" and have gotten for the Muslims so they can practise their religion freely, but it is not ok for the people to get agitated on the failure of the government to do their job.

You sir, on the other hand is supporting the government for all their wrongdoings by justifying the massacre of innocent people along with some pissed off people, who had no option left than to take things in their hands.

As I said, only if you were living in Utopia, you would be thinking about working on democratic channels (that does not exist) to oust any government and bring another one, rather you failed to understand that in past 30 years, people never got a chance to oust any govt. on their own, rather through coup-de-etats.

And when people who does not want their kids to be growing up in a area with brothels, alcahol stores, pornographic material and other ills of the society, you call them "Mullahs", you call them "extremists", and you find all sorts of justifications to kill them.
It is not OK for people to burn businesses and kidnap and threaten people in the presence of a state. No State can be perfect - you admitted that a Utopia is not possible, so in the absence of Utopia, there will always be areas in which a government will be found lacking, always, whether it is an "Islamic government' or a secular one. It is not oK for people to come to their own conclusions on what are is not being addressed and then resort to violence to 'fix it'. That is the job of the State, and if the state does not do its job, then vote them out, and if the elections are not fair, then struggle peacefully to make them fair.

There is no room for violence here, what you advocate is not 'protest', it is anarchy and destruction. Protest is what the Lawyers did, what the media did, what civil society did. The LM goons did not 'protest' they committed heinous crimes and terrorism, and became part of the problem.

If people are so immature and weak as to be affected by a brothel or a video store, then they deserve to be corrupted. As I said before, only a twisted mind can justify suicide bombings, kidnappings and destruction of public and private property under the excuse of brothels. They were killed because they had clearly shown through their actions and intent that they were murderous terrorists.

First of all no child beheaded anyone in the LM. There were no Talibans in LM. Secondly, the people of 'faith', do have every right to stop the wrongdoings of the government. That is what you call "Civil disobedience" which is usually called in when people want to bring down the governments (as APDM is calling on this govt. in due time). So I am not sure why would you confuse completely two different things by pointing out whats going on in the west to what happened in the East, while the two parties did not even relate to eachother. So please stick to the topic, and do not astray far from it. Appreciated.
Please do not insult the memory of MLK by suggesting that what the LM goons did was in anyway akin to the Civil Disobedience advocated by MLK. The lawyers movement and the protests of Civil Society come close to that, not the actions of the LM Mullahs, which were violent and destructive.

I'll answer the rest later.
 
In the end that is the only way a society and system can survive, when its people learn to exercise their rights responsibly and wisely, and that cannot come about without trial and error and without continuity. What you propose is not a system, but merely the substitution of a tyranny of the Military (Musharraf and those before him) with the far worse tyranny of the Mullah. I seek neither, and will stand for and advocate the flawed political and democratic process that still remains the best choice out of several flawed choices.

The revolution that mattered took place already. It was peaceful and political (the violence marring it the frustrated lashing out of the alternate tyranny of the Mullah you propose), and a military dictator, benevolent though he was, was overthrown in favor of a democratically elected government. That revolution is the one that needs to continue, and attempting to prevent it from succeeding is the tyranny of the Mullah.
AM, you are absolutely spot on. :enjoy:
 
AM, absent religious rule and civic consciousness, how do you propose to fight corruption?
 
sighs...you know I take a lot caution when replying to you and people like you, so that you don't feel alienated from the rest of the members on this forum. Please respond with the same patience I extend to you, I have no grudge against you, and I do hope you realize that. I disagree with some of the statements here, coming from both sides of the argument, but my problem lies with your thinking and logic.

No you don't, perhaps this would be the first email you took that advice of yours but calling me "Anti-Pakistani" many times, "extremist" many times, "Jaahil awaam" many times, "Terrorist" many times, were not very much cautious on your end to not alienate me. In fact you did every effort to do that, instead of replying to my concerns (which was somewhat only in the last post you did, and I replied back only to your post and you still didn't respond to my post) instead giving me a lecture by alienating me and telling me that I am some sort of dumb person comparing to hishighness. So no thanks, you can keep your goodwill gestures to yourself. I don't need your phoney neo-liberal goodies. You are just an another profile for me in this forum with whom I share my views, tho I doubt that from your end, as you are constantly 'imposing' your views on me by calling mine as "error in my logic/ignorant answer" etc. etc.


I could care less whether you love or hate the army, I was never arguing to enforce something like that in your head. I've found that arguing with the majority of the Pakistani people in support of the army is useless, which is why I choose to ignore ranting coming from ignorants.

You did. Or you would not open you many replies with statements such as "Army this and Army that" and that we "jaahil awaam" hate army. And I constantly asked you to talk on the subject matter, not give me lectures, which you constantly did, along with this one as well, which was not a reply to what we were discussing, rather a lecture to an 'alien' by telling imposing your thought on him.

I know it's my screen name that is causing grief to some people here, but I didn't know it would turn from an academic argument to a "error in your logic" without proving the error or anything.

So if you need to argue your point, be specific to the points I had raised and you didn't like or want to counter them. Not by giving me lectures of what is right and what is not. Debate academically, not like a grandfather (which you are not as I am sure you are way younger than me, while thinking all that of yourself).

what I'm trying to figure out here is what your views are, I'm trying to clear up those views and put them forth so that you, yourself, can see the error of your logic. your arguments aren't consistent, they don't even make sense when you put them in order.

In fricken 3 dozen posts you couldn't figure out what I am saying while Agnostic Muslim is quiet on the level (tho not with his accusations) with me? where does the problem lie now? How many times do someone have to tell you what the other person is asking?

I can tell you what is the problem here. The problem is, you can't take the criticism against army. This is what you send me a private message, and this is what you said time and over again here that why I am questioning army. that's the problem.

The army is not beyond criticism, you don't know how much I criticize the armed forces, on this forum and the others. I've been mocked and ridiculed for that, some people are just too proud to admit their own shortcomings. However, what I do know is that our own people are far too stupid to realize that our army pales in comparison to the indian army and so many other armies, when it comes to horrific crimes and "taking the nation hostage". I understand how important the army is to our nation, how important it is to entire muslim world. the only thing holding the US and India back is our army and intelligence.

Right, the army i snot beyond criticsm, that is why half of your replies along with private message was threatening mode to tell me that I am not even a pakistani and a jaahil awaam by saying "army this and army that". Sure, whatever makes you happy.

I am new here, deffinately not welcomed by a few of you tho thanks to many others (whom love made me stay), so I have to admit that I haven't read every single post of yours, but as many I have, NO WHERE you have criticised the top brass for the things you ar enot claiming. Instead I see full fledge defense of every wrongdoing of them by justifying their every action and fighting against anybody by calling them "***** awaam" and "ignorants" and "non-pakistanis" and other colorful words if they questioned the army.

So this is what I have seen from you so far and that certainly doesn't interpret as criticising the army, rather spitting on anyone who remotely question actions of top brass.

you talk as if corruption in the upper echelons of the army is more severe than the likes of what we've seen with politicians. you make it sound as if our politicians are angels, and only a few of them are corrupt? do you know how much money they've stolen from the public since the beginning? do you want me to show you how they live here in the US? I can certainly pull up a picture of my friend on facebook, and show you what drinking and partying really is.

e.g. just look at your this comment. If I ask you right now, where did I ever say or even implied our politician are classic example of prophethood, then you'd have no place to hide. All you are doing is "assuming". If I had a dollar for everytime you assumed something about me, I would be a rich man by now. You are constantly misquoting me to form your argument to prove your point "against" me. You are constantly misinterpreting me (deliberately since you have been implying all along that you are all that and well, I am ignorant ***** awaam). You are constantly assigning things to me that I have never said, just so you can have your argument nice and dandy. That's all I can comprehend from your this comment.

it's true the army is westernized, but only to a small degree. These westernized generals in the upper echelons are dying out.

This is another example of misquoting, misinterpreting and assigning things to me that I have never said. If you don't corectly remember, it was someone else who questioned the culture of army, not me. I am questioning the actions of LM and aerial bombardment of Swat on behest of someone else, as it's clearly not a need of the operation and clearly many officers were against it. But yet you are at it again by associating something you dreampt last night to me that I am questioning th ewesternization of the army. I am questioning the very actions of the top brass by being in the bed with america, who are pushing them to attack civilian quarters with mere aid, money and threats and our top brass is saying "yes sir" withotu taking the other military in confidence. I am questioning the very unilateral actions taken in the past on LM and Swat/Bajaur operations.

The next generals in line are called "post Zia-ists"-recently brought up in an article, hence the fear of nuclear weapons falling into the "wrong hands". the term is pretty much self-explanatory. there is severe hatred for the US in the armed forces and the intelligence. But again, there's a difference between knowing and actually doing something about it.

I know that very well, and even I said that in my last post to you, but you certainly didn't take that in consideration when I said there's a split in the army between the good guys and the bad guys, and here you are again, repeating yourself. I don't know what to tell you because I am not really use to this kind of discussions, where other's parroting themselves left n right without listening to the other party. So I am speechless.

I can assure you, the militants aren't winning in afghanistan as some idiots here are celebrating, the americans simply don't care about them as long as their direct interests aren't threatened. things are not what they seem to be. as of right now, there is nothing Pakistan can do. The only option is to play it out and wait, until someone gets tired and leaves.

First of all you stop insulting Freedom fighters fighting against the occupation forces by calling them Militants. Secondly that's what you think that they are losing. I live on the border of that country having witnessed the soviet-afghan conflict and then the civil war and then the Talibans regime and then the american occupation, and then having a masters degree in history that included Afghanistan history, I certainly disagree with you that there's any chance of losing. Afghanistan is rightly called "Graveyard of Empires".

So to hide the failure of all powerful american empire and 40 allied nations, they are spilling the war into Pakistan after the allies failed to implement the democracy there (which now they too claim can't be done so changing the strategy). It's a completely different topic tho so I wont go into details but if you want to discuss than create a topic and I will be there to reply.

it's true, musharraf has made terrible decisions that cost this country so much. However, there's a difference between Musharraf and the army as a whole. I shouldn't have to remind you of the generals who helped Musharraf come into power were pro-jihadists and were bitterly against the joining of the WoT. Please research Generals Mahmood, Mohammad Aziz, and Usmani.

damn right he made mistakes. No just terribly but horrible mistakes. Our entire country is on verge of destruction because of his honeymoon with america and his love for the sherwani and the uniform at the same time.

And as I said earlier and in my previous post, that I believe there's a split in the army among good and bag guys, but bad guys being in decision making is over running the good guys. Hence we saw unilateral decisions (or severe transfers of good people to elsewhere) to get the word of the masters implemented. Just recently they replaced one of the best ISI DG Nadeem Taj with this guy Shuja Pasha, by breaking the history of the army (that never changed the position of the DG before the two year term), just because the uncle sam did not like Nadeem Taj who was exposing their crimes against Pakistan.

The people of Pakistan have elected a govt. of their own choice. you haven't provided sufficient proof of the army somehow "secretly" controlling the govt, that theory is ridiculous.

What proofs? do you think Army documents its actions of "controlling the government" and then let the public access it too? Don't be a child. The proof of the army's intervention in every god damn government we have is the past 60 years and the actions that had been reversed left n right by the GoP that they made on their own to control the Army/ISI. That clearly says who controls the business. Moreover, General Kiyani's own words are, it is necessary to intervene in the GoP to keep things in orders... what more logic and proofs do you want? a Link on the internet? Come on already, every person in Pakistan knows how powerful the Military is. Every author have written that. It's no secret. We have a history of 60 years and future have no surprises.

it was Zardari that took the order to move the ISI back, even if he was pressured by generals, the point is he did. even if Zardari chose to move the ISI, he did it without Parliament's consultation, it wasn't even debated and there was much backlash, when the ISI was moved and when the DG ISI was supposed to be sent to india. Besides, the current DG ISI has clearly said in an interview that he was ready to go.

I don't know what to say to your explanation in defense of the army that it does not intervene in GoP. And you mixed two different scenarios into one (ISI under IM and Chief's departure to India - tho I was and am against both but that's not the point we are arguing). You are saying on one hand, it was Zardari that reversed the decision, and on the other hand that it could be pressure from generals. You bet it was a pressure from generals. In both cases. The GoP, specially the likes of Zardari and Malik, does not have no room to stand against the Army to control it. That was a pure try of United States to see if they can use Zardari to tame our strong military, but they miserablly failed. But what you are not comprehending here is, the history of military intervention in GoP. You can twist the matter as much as you can, but it won't make no sense while we have a past, present of the intervention and future have no surprises. I can clearly see something big cooking up from Military side (right or wrong is even not in question here).

I've already provided you with sufficient proof the current govt. is in charge. I shouldn't have to, bring me some serious proof that the army is in charge. otherwise, drop this accusation and blame the current govt. right now which has an agreement with the US on airstrikes.

You provided no proofs (there can never be any proof regarding that, it's a pure logical thing base don past and present expereinces that we see). rather you asserted a few things in defense that GoP controls the Army in your previous post, that I replied by asking few more qustions, and yet you did not reply to what I asked or commented on, rather you came again with this "imposing attitude" that you provided the proofs by asking me to provide you the proofs, for what we can never have any proofs but a pure logical reasoning in the light of past and present events surrounding our country. You are talking about proofs regarding the military intervention that its something documented facts from military website and easily availble to public. No, Sir, that's not the case. if you are asking for links of investigative journalists asserting that army still controls, then there are plenty you can research on your own. Other than that, we know the history of intervention and we know a couple of scenarios in the present situation and the future will have no surprises, only you have to wait and watch.

we know that innocent civilians are killed in crossfire from the artillery shells, again I brought up the agreement we had with the US for counter-insurgency training. But as I already had predicted, you would disagree and consider those soldiers to be "western slaves".

The civilians are dying regardless, most of them are called "suspected militants" by the media anyway. And most of them are being labeled as 30 militants died, or 40 killed by the army or 60 clashed. The ground reality is, the militants does not operate in 20s and 30s and 40s packs. They are in twos, 4s and maximum 10s to avoid detection and confrontration and to getaway easily after committing the crime.

And what agreement? You said there was no agreement implemented for coutner insurgency training. And I provided you a credible source (Asia Times) that reported the american base being built on the name of that training in Tarbela. If you want, you can take a trip to tarbela and check it yourself. No one is allowed in there, not even military. It's purely American base, for God knows what, as certainly F.C. is not being trained there and its quiet a few months already that americans are there.

And you again used the term "soldiers" to divert the attention of the readers to prove your argument that I am against the soldiers (not the top brass that I don't know why you are failing to read). I mean for the umptenth time, I am not asking for much, just asking you to academically discuss things. Do not assign things to me I never said. do not use the terms I never used. Do not divert the subject by portraying innocence and making me look like some evil knievel hater of army. (Even tho you said in your opening statements that You don't care what I think of Army, but yet you are constantly implying that you do care, by changing the terms that I used with what you can form your arguments with). Please, I am not asking for much, just an academic discussion based on what I am saying (even if I am wrong) but do not assign things to me I never said, just because you want to prove your argument.

what you need to recognize, is that these militants are using the civilian population as a shield. the only choices people have is to start their own lashkars, while moving people out of the area to prepare for a major operation. people cannot just sit there and only criticize the army, they have to recognize the militants and blame them equally. we know that is not happening, and we also know that these militants cannot all be foreigners, they are getting some of their support from Swat as well. tell me, why is that?

What you do not understand is, the urban warfare has always these implications. It doesn't mean that the people responsible to protect the civilians, have no option but to bomb the **** out of them.

These Militants as you claimed are not using the people as shield. The warzone is a civilian area. That is the main design behind engaging the Pakistan Army into a battle in warzone by the west, knowing they (PA) will not hesitate to bomb it, which will create a severe backlash and gap between the PA and the civilian society.

And they (the enemy) are quiet successful in creating that Gap. If you haven't noticed, or asked any Army officers, they are told not to wear uniforms in public areas and not to disclose their identities. My cousins do not even use military vehicles anymore to come home to see their parents for few minutes. That's how much gap has been created.

Moreover, I repeat, the human shield is another western created drama to legitimise their crimes. The fact is, the militants does not operate in 20s and 30s and 40s packs. They are in twos, 4s and maximum 10s to avoid detection and confrontration with security forces, and to getaway easily after committing the crime or can easily disperse in the population undetected.

And when people hear, 20/30/50 militants dead in clashes, they go to the area to dug the bodies of the civilians because they know there will be civilians in scores, while the bad guys easily get away by provoking Military into bombing. This is why the question has been already raised that who are the militants that army cannot contain in 2 years. And that is not my concern here, it is a concern of the public, which had been relayed already to General Kiyani by our leaders (I already gave you the bbc Urdu link).

I am not making that up, it's a ground fact that people see the actions of the PA and are under perception that PA and Militants are one and some sort of game is being played. Otherwise we would have never relayed this message to General Kiyani to look into this and clear the perception of the people so support can be gained.

As a matter of fact, try to find someone else from Swat or take a quick trip to the area covertly and interview people on your own (if you deem my information biased and made up as somehow you think I have hatred for PA). That would be the best way to explain my point here that army must change the strategy and do something to clear this misconception of the people that Militants and they are not One, and there's no game being played on their property and lives. That's all what I am arguing here too being the part of that area.
 
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wat pashtun is sayin is the common feeling in swat. in islamabad i met a policeman who was from swat and he was talkin about something similar. its nothing to do with anti-watever but is due wat ppl livin there are goin through
 
My reference to a 'utopia' was not literal, but a reference to this 'utopia' you seem to have convinced yourself only a halfd literate Mullah's can deliver us to.

And no, I am not referring to a a 'perfect political system', if you had read my post carefully you would have realized I called democracy a flawed system, but less flawed than others, especially the tyrannical one under the Mullah's you propose.

So no, I have no illusions about the inherent flaws in a democratic system - it is just that those flaws are far smaller than those in a Mullah or military dictatorship.

Utopia is not literal anyway. It's a perception of something perfect. You already decided that (without asking me) I am some sort of saying Mullah's revolution was/is the only way out. Even tho I clearly said and many times implied, that was just a few people, a fraction of the bigger machinery of civil disobedience or revolution, that took things in their hands. It does not necessarily mean they are the only ones against the prohibited stuff allowed in the area. There are literally thousands who would oppose it, but are scared to get shot or disappear. Someone have raise his voice, before everyone can rise, and they were the ones who rose their voice against those injustices.

Hence, you have misinterpreted my post by thinking that I am saying "Mullahs" are the only one who could do it. The revolutions does not come out from specific cast or creed. It comes out of people, from every walk of life. So no, if you were constantly calling me a Mullah for thinking that I was saying thats it, they are the ones, then hit del quickly. They were just the smallest part of the masses, who are against what the govt. did to them, or allowing to happen.

Oh please - Islam is Islam is a canard spouted by those making excuses for the extremists and obscurantists. Islam does not advocate violence upon those who are unarmed, it does not advocate challenging the writ of the State when all peaceful options have not yet been closed down, it does not advocate suicide bombings all across Pakistan (as the LM Mullahs claimed on the media), so the 'Islam' advocated by these individuals was nothing but a perversion.

Certainly, Islam does not advocate violence against unarmed people, and I did not see them committing any violence against any unarmed people, rather what I saw was, a bunch of people defyign heavily armed military and a crack head dictator, who wanted to prove it to the west that he is the man for the job, so they can support him to the end.

And I repeat, they openly, on live T.V., said they are ready to surrender/negotiate, but miltiary leadership refused. Where is the violence in here? from which side? Why they were not given a chance? or is that some sort of a Lotto that you have three chances, or off you go.

That incident, has destroyed our country (you already agreed to that) and is a turning point in rising masses against the state. From as far as Southern Punjab, people are blowing Mariotts and fighting with security forces in waziristan and Swat... why? because they disapproved the massacre of the civilians. And even if they were defiant, it doesn't matter, GoP was much more powerful and sane and bright, than those pissed off 'Mullahs'. If their wisdom was gone grass grazing, what happened to the wisdom of decision makers, who are suppose to protect and resolve issues, not bomb and shut up everyone.

It is not OK for people to burn businesses and kidnap and threaten people in the presence of a state. No State can be perfect - you admitted that a Utopia is not possible, so in the absence of Utopia, there will always be areas in which a government will be found lacking, always, whether it is an "Islamic government' or a secular one. It is not oK for people to come to their own conclusions on what are is not being addressed and then resort to violence to 'fix it'. That is the job of the State, and if the state does not do its job, then vote them out, and if the elections are not fair, then struggle peacefully to make them fair.

Well even tho I agree with you that it is not ok for the people to take matters in their hands, but there's another side of the picture as well. When governments/rulers are failed to deliver, people rise. And I can't repeat all the stuff I wrote up there about why they do that. Why resistance movements starts. Why people defy governments.

As you said, it's not Utopia, so if you are ordering people not to act otherwise because it's not utopia and govts. do falter, than the same goes for govts. to not massacre its own people, becuase its not utopia, and people does falter as well.

This is why I repeat, a solution was a dialogue, not open massacre. They were our own citizens who were ready to surrender/negotiate. Why the communications broke. Why the authorities refuse dto listen to them, when they were trying to resolve the issue and when the issue was getting resolved, kaboom, blank, no communication, and bombed them left n right.

There is no room for violence here, what you advocate is not 'protest', it is anarchy and destruction. Protest is what the Lawyers did, what the media did, what civil society did. The LM goons did not 'protest' they committed heinous crimes and terrorism, and became part of the problem.

No sir, it was a protest, an angry one, with a definace. There was no destruction, no anarchy. There were local people who joined them in brurning porno cds. And they did not harm no one. They even let go of prostitutes by giving them a morality lecture. There was no harm done, except civil disobedience and later when threatened, a definace against the military and then even they dropped that idea and said they are ready to come in.

The anarchy and destruction is what going in Swat. That's where you need an surgical operation. That's where you deal with militants accordingly. Even there we have a wrong strategy of aerial bombardment and shelling, like the enemy is trenched somewhere, wearing uniforms.

If people are so immature and weak as to be affected by a brothel or a video store, then they deserve to be corrupted. As I said before, only a twisted mind can justify suicide bombings, kidnappings and destruction of public and private property under the excuse of brothels. They were killed because they had clearly shown through their actions and intent that they were murderous terrorists.

You just twisted that one again. I mean if you can't stick to the bloody topic academically, then don't twist and insert things to prove your argument. Nobody is justifying the suicide bombings, where does it came from?

They asked thed authorities to clear off the the brothels, and I am sure even locals would have done so too, because its not about maturity or something, its about liking or not liking it. You like it, because you live in the west, the people on ground, doesn't appreciate these things, as these are strongly against their religion. And their kids grow up in the area. Nobody wants to expose their kids to such stuff when they are not ready to make decisions on their own. That's what caused the stir. And that's where the govt. did not respond back, as we all know how Police takes Bhatta from such places and how powerful people are its customers, hence someone got pissed off with the situation and decided to take the things in his own hands.

Instead of resolving the issue, you are saying that its ok to kill them. And I said no, its not ok. That's the fundamental difference we have.

Please do not insult the memory of MLK by suggesting that what the LM goons did was in anyway akin to the Civil Disobedience advocated by MLK. The lawyers movement and the protests of Civil Society come close to that, not the actions of the LM Mullahs, which were violent and destructive.

The lawyers movement too was ragged badly. Lawyers were beaten severely in the streets. Nobody swings a baton thinking that it wont kill someone. See this video below, this is what happens when you peacefully try to protest. So we differ on this opinion as well. Because there's no room in our country to protest at all against the wrong sof the government. All you get back is either being disappeared, beaten badly, arrested without charge, or killed by calling you a terrorist. No sir, not every person agitated with government's action and protesting angirly is a terrorist or extremist. The fault lies with the rulers, who are letting the visible wrongs happenings (forget about the other corruption and invisible wrongs).

 
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wat pashtun is sayin is the common feeling in swat. in islamabad i met a policeman who was from swat and he was talkin about something similar. its nothing to do with anti-watever but is due wat ppl livin there are goin through

Oh finally, someone spoke up. Thank you very much Pirzada for re-iterating what I am saying in much simpler and plain words (I hope they would take your word over mine).

This is exactly what I am trying to explain by giving several different scenarios to say what people are feeling on the ground (not being anti army or something) but questioning the actions. And that is why our leaders met with General Kiyani and relayed the concerns of the people to him that people are thinking PA and Militants are same, and General saab should do concrete stuff to change that perception.

Thanks for understanding my point tho, appreciated.
 
Oh finally, someone spoke up. Thank you very much Pirzada for re-iterating what I am saying in much simpler and plain words (I hope they would take your word over mine).

This is exactly what I am trying to explain by giving several different scenarios to say what people are feeling on the ground (not being anti army or something) but questioning the actions. And that is why our leaders met with General Kiyani and relayed the concerns of the people to him that people are thinking PA and Militants are same, and General saab should do concrete stuff to change that perception.

Thanks for understanding my point tho, appreciated.

always welcome brother. it always gets hard for ppl outside swat to understand wat u guys are on about. and when we feel someone is sayin something against PA, we naturaly become agressive though the other person(which in this case is u) might be talkin about something totally different. u have seen ppl dyin and therefore we cant feel the way u feel regardin the whole situation.
btw wat do u think about the recent operation being undertaken by the army. is it of some use or u think nothing will change. i have read the news but i bet ull be a lot better than any new paper.
 
No you don't, perhaps this would be the first email you took that advice of yours but calling me "Anti-Pakistani" many times, "extremist" many times, "Jaahil awaam" many times, "Terrorist" many times, were not very much cautious on your end to not alienate me. In fact you did every effort to do that, instead of replying to my concerns (which was somewhat only in the last post you did, and I replied back only to your post and you still didn't respond to my post) instead giving me a lecture by alienating me and telling me that I am some sort of dumb person comparing to hishighness. So no thanks, you can keep your goodwill gestures to yourself. I don't need your phoney neo-liberal goodies. You are just an another profile for me in this forum with whom I share my views, tho I doubt that from your end, as you are constantly 'imposing' your views on me by calling mine as "error in my logic/ignorant answer" etc. etc.

my email to you was answers for your concerns about Swat and why this stuff is happening, ANP. actually, my email wasn't much different from my posts right now. instead of answering, you invited me to Swat and join the police force, somehow you thought by living in the US, I was too afraid to fight against your brave extremist allies? I can see your views don't differ from that of extremists, you have the same type of takfirist mentality that is a disease to the ummah as a whole.

You did. Or you would not open you many replies with statements such as "Army this and Army that" and that we "jaahil awaam" hate army. And I constantly asked you to talk on the subject matter, not give me lectures, which you constantly did, along with this one as well, which was not a reply to what we were discussing, rather a lecture to an 'alien' by telling imposing your thought on him.

apparently, you can't understand the "jahel awam" argument, it applies to almost everyone in Pakistan for unknowingly destroying their country. we have some of the most corrupt people on earth, pathetic and useless who just sit there and do nothing but gossip and spread conspiracy theories. The people don't even look at corruption as a bad thing, they see it as the norm, nepotism is part of the norm. these people are the majority in this country of ours, a people who elected Zardari.

try to interpret what I'm saying, people are stupid. they find the army as the source of all evils, when they themselves ruin Pakistan, either through their inherent corruption or through their everyday gossip.

I know it's my screen name that is causing grief to some people here, but I didn't know it would turn from an academic argument to a "error in your logic" without proving the error or anything.

So if you need to argue your point, be specific to the points I had raised and you didn't like or want to counter them. Not by giving me lectures of what is right and what is not. Debate academically, not like a grandfather (which you are not as I am sure you are way younger than me, while thinking all that of yourself).

"academically"? is that some sort of a joke? you don't make any sense at all, and you fail to see the twisted logic of your own posts. what is this "I know it's my screen name that is causing grief to some people here"? are you assuming we are discriminating against you here because you are ethnically a pashtun? why don't you go ahead already and admit that you are a pashtun nationalist?


In fricken 3 dozen posts you couldn't figure out what I am saying while Agnostic Muslim is quiet on the level (tho not with his accusations) with me? where does the problem lie now? How many times do someone have to tell you what the other person is asking?
tell me, which side are you on, state or stateless actors? which is it?

I can tell you what is the problem here. The problem is, you can't take the criticism against army. This is what you send me a private message, and this is what you said time and over again here that why I am questioning army. that's the problem.
again, nothing is going to get through your rock-like mentality. I can't hammer nails into your head saying that I don't think that the army is above criticism. I can go through a few posts of mine on this thread, and quote instances where I have mentioned some negative comments about the army, but it wouldn't matter anyway because you are ignorant and you can't process other views.

I am new here, deffinately not welcomed by a few of you tho thanks to many others (whom love made me stay), so I have to admit that I haven't read every single post of yours, but as many I have, NO WHERE you have criticised the top brass for the things you ar enot claiming. Instead I see full fledge defense of every wrongdoing of them by justifying their every action and fighting against anybody by calling them "***** awaam" and "ignorants" and "non-pakistanis" and other colorful words if they questioned the army.
I'm getting tired of replying to this crap, the answers are the same above^. I'm the one who sent you an email asking you to stay. don't worry, it's just you. your paranoia is driving you crazy, you believe everyone here is out to get you. we've talked to you nicely, again if you act like spoiled kid and don't want to listen, don't bother replying.

First of all you stop insulting Freedom fighters fighting against the occupation forces by calling them Militants. Secondly that's what you think that they are losing. I live on the border of that country having witnessed the soviet-afghan conflict and then the civil war and then the Talibans regime and then the american occupation, and then having a masters degree in history that included Afghanistan history, I certainly disagree with you that there's any chance of losing. Afghanistan is rightly called "Graveyard of Empires".

oh sorry, after all, you are winning in afghanistan. you've been in control for over the past 8 years. no foreign troops are on afghan soil, no coalition armies, no british. yes, afghanistan has a true sharia govt. run by the militants. get real, no one is close to beating NATO there, get this through your head. the mujahideen couldn't even chase out the soviets for ten years, until only after they got funding from the west, arms from china, training from Pakistan, and most importantly, the USSR weakening through the cold war.


damn right he made mistakes. No just terribly but horrible mistakes. Our entire country is on verge of destruction because of his honeymoon with america and his love for the sherwani and the uniform at the same time.

And as I said earlier and in my previous post, that I believe there's a split in the army among good and bag guys, but bad guys being in decision making is over running the good guys. Hence we saw unilateral decisions (or severe transfers of good people to elsewhere) to get the word of the masters implemented. Just recently they replaced one of the best ISI DG Nadeem Taj with this guy Shuja Pasha, by breaking the history of the army (that never changed the position of the DG before the two year term), just because the uncle sam did not like Nadeem Taj who was exposing their crimes against Pakistan.

What proofs? do you think Army documents its actions of "controlling the government" and then let the public access it too? Don't be a child. The proof of the army's intervention in every god damn government we have is the past 60 years and the actions that had been reversed left n right by the GoP that they made on their own to control the Army/ISI. That clearly says who controls the business. Moreover, General Kiyani's own words are, it is necessary to intervene in the GoP to keep things in orders... what more logic and proofs do you want? a Link on the internet? Come on already, every person in Pakistan knows how powerful the Military is. Every author have written that. It's no secret. We have a history of 60 years and future have no surprises.

I don't know what to say to your explanation in defense of the army that it does not intervene in GoP. And you mixed two different scenarios into one (ISI under IM and Chief's departure to India - tho I was and am against both but that's not the point we are arguing). You are saying on one hand, it was Zardari that reversed the decision, and on the other hand that it could be pressure from generals. You bet it was a pressure from generals. In both cases. The GoP, specially the likes of Zardari and Malik, does not have no room to stand against the Army to control it. That was a pure try of United States to see if they can use Zardari to tame our strong military, but they miserablly failed. But what you are not comprehending here is, the history of military intervention in GoP. You can twist the matter as much as you can, but it won't make no sense while we have a past, present of the intervention and future have no surprises. I can clearly see something big cooking up from Military side (right or wrong is even not in question here).

-yet again, no proof to back up your claim. ask anyone here who they think is in charge of the govt., the army or zardari. Agnostic, why don't we save this guy's ego and have a poll on this forum. everyone, who do you think is in charge of the govt., army or zardari?

And you again used the term "soldiers" to divert the attention of the readers to prove your argument that I am against the soldiers (not the top brass that I don't know why you are failing to read). I mean for the umptenth time, I am not asking for much, just asking you to academically discuss things. Do not assign things to me I never said. do not use the terms I never used. Do not divert the subject by portraying innocence and making me look like some evil knievel hater of army. (Even tho you said in your opening statements that You don't care what I think of Army, but yet you are constantly implying that you do care, by changing the terms that I used with what you can form your arguments with). Please, I am not asking for much, just an academic discussion based on what I am saying (even if I am wrong) but do not assign things to me I never said, just because you want to prove your argument.



What you do not understand is, the urban warfare has always these implications. It doesn't mean that the people responsible to protect the civilians, have no option but to bomb the **** out of them.

These Militants as you claimed are not using the people as shield. The warzone is a civilian area. That is the main design behind engaging the Pakistan Army into a battle in warzone by the west, knowing they (PA) will not hesitate to bomb it, which will create a severe backlash and gap between the PA and the civilian society.

And they (the enemy) are quiet successful in creating that Gap. If you haven't noticed, or asked any Army officers, they are told not to wear uniforms in public areas and not to disclose their identities. My cousins do not even use military vehicles anymore to come home to see their parents for few minutes. That's how much gap has been created.

Moreover, I repeat, the human shield is another western created drama to legitimise their crimes. The fact is, the militants does not operate in 20s and 30s and 40s packs. They are in twos, 4s and maximum 10s to avoid detection and confrontration with security forces, and to getaway easily after committing the crime or can easily disperse in the population undetected.

And when people hear, 20/30/50 militants dead in clashes, they go to the area to dug the bodies of the civilians because they know there will be civilians in scores, while the bad guys easily get away by provoking Military into bombing. This is why the question has been already raised that who are the militants that army cannot contain in 2 years. And that is not my concern here, it is a concern of the public, which had been relayed already to General Kiyani by our leaders (I already gave you the bbc Urdu link).

I am not making that up, it's a ground fact that people see the actions of the PA and are under perception that PA and Militants are one and some sort of game is being played. Otherwise we would have never relayed this message to General Kiyani to look into this and clear the perception of the people so support can be gained.

As a matter of fact, try to find someone else from Swat or take a quick trip to the area covertly and interview people on your own (if you deem my information biased and made up as somehow you think I have hatred for PA). That would be the best way to explain my point here that army must change the strategy and do something to clear this misconception of the people that Militants and they are not One, and there's no game being played on their property and lives. That's all what I am arguing here too being the part of that area.
whatever, as you can see here, no one is taking your info seriously. we already have sources reporting what is going on from there. a real reporter who lives there, not you, not hamid mir, not syed saleem shahzad, and your fellow conspiracy theorists.

you couldn't answer anything at all clearly. arguing with you is like talking to a rock, I can scream all I want, but you're more stubborn than a rock.
  • Prove that the army is still in charge
  • Tell us which side are you on?
 
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